| "We want Evans Out"... 07:05 - Mar 4 with 22110 views | IPS_wich |
Genuinely curious - what's to stop Evans winding us up as a going concern?
There seems to have been a number of indications over the years that he has tried to sell the club but hasn't found anyone interested.
What's to stop him in May, after 2-3 months of growing protests and vitriol aimed at him (because sadly I'm resigned to a mid-table finish), just thinking f**k it, I'm sick of subsidising this nonsense, the fans don't want me, so I'm out...and just putting us into receivership, selling Playford Road and cashing out??
Not that this should temper our protest, but just thinking about the consequences of a sustained campaign of "Evans out" |  | | |  |
| (No subject) on 12:22 - Mar 4 with 5326 views | HARRY10 |
| (No subject) on 07:44 - Mar 4 by Oxford_Blue |
The club would go into administration first, which means that a third party would manage it to see if it could continue trading. It would need to sell its best players and balance the books. An advantage is that it doesn’t have any third party debt, so unlike last time there would be no need for any creditors voluntary agreements.
There is a six million pound gap and Evans fills it. |
really ?
So how come after all this cost cutting, unfer funding etc and selling of plauyers we still run at exactly a £6m loss - though you did claim it was a s high as £10m not long back
How come we have not cut oiur cloth accordingly ?
Fine if we had been relegated and tck with expensive contracts so we run at a losss - but why are we signing players on contracts that we cannot afford, if it is the case ? | | | |
| "We want Evans Out"... on 12:35 - Mar 4 with 5304 views | RegencyBlue |
The first thing that Evans needs to do is put the club up for sale because unless things have changed since his last interview a year or so ago it isn't. Maybe someone knows more about that?
The longer the Evans malaise goes on the more we become even less attractive to any potential buyer out there. Evans is going to have to write off the debt completely to shift the club but its either that or continue the relentless decline of the last twelve years. Its not just finances with Evans, all he has done in the last twelve years is prove he doesn't have a bloody clue how to run a football club!
Frankly I'm at the point where if he pulls the plug it would almost be a relief. We could start again and it would be a damn sight more honest than having a ticket touting wide boy as an owner. Hopefully we would rise again although given the likely time scale I probably wouldn't live to see it. |  | | |
| (No subject) on 12:40 - Mar 4 with 5290 views | monytowbray |
| (No subject) on 10:43 - Mar 4 by daisyisabaddog |
The only people who know about the tax situation are Evans and his advisors and HMRC. That information is not required as part of the information included in the accounts. Having recently retired after 40 years in the taxation/accountancy business I would think it highly unlikely that the clubs losses are being offset elsewhere within the Evans group of companies. One of the many restrictions to group tax loss relief is that the companies concerned must be run with a view to making a profit. That's a bit of a stretch in the current situation.
I have no inside knowledge of the club or other Evans companies but the fact that he stopped charging interest on the loan to ITFC may indicate that HMRC had some input into the loss situation.
Others in this thread have suggested that minority shareholders can stop liquidation. That's nonsense I'm afraid. If Evans stops funding losses it would be illegal for the club to carry on trading. The club would be put into Administration and would then be totally under the control of the Administrator. Their job would be to find the best deal available to the creditors, which in our case would be 90% Evans. If no one could be found to guarantee to fund the losses going forward the club would be liquidated. At that point, it is possible that Evans or one of his companies may be entitled to tax relief on the loan write off. It is impossible to judge without being able to see all the group accounts but if the loan has come from an offshore company tax relief would definitely not be available.
I'm worried about the current situation but more than worried about the long term. There is a possibility that we may end up out of the Football League without a ground. We are entirely reliant on one man. Several people have said he wouldn't want to damage his good name by walking away but he doesn't actually have a good name or reputation to worry about.
The good news is that Portsmouth got through a similar situation. The bad news is that Portsmouth didn't have a landlord who wanted to sell the ground for development.
In summary, it's unlikely that Evans is getting tax relief for our losses. In the highly unlikely event that he is it's only 20% of the loss. He is also highly unlikely to benefit in terms of tax from folding the club. But there must come a point when he says enough is enough. We are now facing another year in L1 with very restrictive FFP rules. I therefore think we may be getting close to the end. Which hopefully will also be the beginning of something much better. |
Good post and exactly what I said on the thread I started this morning in regards to what we need (Fans with knowledge on what the options are).
Rationality, knowledge and action... by monytowbray 4 Mar 2020 9:31Where do fans begin in actually protesting and demanding reasonable action? I know we’re not to Pompey 00s-10s levels of doomed but when they sorted the fan takeover they had accountant and legal experienced fans who gave up their free time to help (the legal firm were actually a client of mine at the time LOOK AT ME).
I mean, showing up with banners and shouting is one thing but surely we should have a list of possible demands/requests as to what we want from the ownership and Evans? Be it investment based on what his accounts look like (which would be interesting because like many Football owners he’d feel very concerned if someone with legal knowledge was sniffing around his books to spot potential holes) or a way to offload the club to someone/thing else?
I think there would be numerous potential outcomes but to really pile pressure on we as fans need to know what they are.
I believe when Portsmouth were fighting to win their club back the accountant discovered some very naughty transfers and figures on the books and the bloke who was blocking the sale by all means he could quickly backed down, although I can’t remember the exact ins and outs.
It would seem the general consensus if we were to protest ME's ownership would be to to force him to take the best option for the club and the fans. Yes? [Post edited 4 Mar 2020 12:44]
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| (No subject) on 12:42 - Mar 4 with 5284 views | monytowbray |
| (No subject) on 12:15 - Mar 4 by Ryorry |
I've never understood how he got to be a "successful business owner".
For someone who's in the hospitality & PR business, to keep your shop front in a generally dirty, shabby & uncared for state, the catering & service poor, and to ignore what your most loyal return customers in increasing numbers are saying about staying away from the place - is bizarre! |
Having too much money makes money regardless usually. YAY DISASTER CAPITALISM. | |
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| (No subject) on 12:47 - Mar 4 with 5275 views | Oxford_Blue |
| (No subject) on 12:40 - Mar 4 by monytowbray |
Good post and exactly what I said on the thread I started this morning in regards to what we need (Fans with knowledge on what the options are).
Rationality, knowledge and action... by monytowbray 4 Mar 2020 9:31Where do fans begin in actually protesting and demanding reasonable action? I know we’re not to Pompey 00s-10s levels of doomed but when they sorted the fan takeover they had accountant and legal experienced fans who gave up their free time to help (the legal firm were actually a client of mine at the time LOOK AT ME).
I mean, showing up with banners and shouting is one thing but surely we should have a list of possible demands/requests as to what we want from the ownership and Evans? Be it investment based on what his accounts look like (which would be interesting because like many Football owners he’d feel very concerned if someone with legal knowledge was sniffing around his books to spot potential holes) or a way to offload the club to someone/thing else?
I think there would be numerous potential outcomes but to really pile pressure on we as fans need to know what they are.
I believe when Portsmouth were fighting to win their club back the accountant discovered some very naughty transfers and figures on the books and the bloke who was blocking the sale by all means he could quickly backed down, although I can’t remember the exact ins and outs.
It would seem the general consensus if we were to protest ME's ownership would be to to force him to take the best option for the club and the fans. Yes? [Post edited 4 Mar 2020 12:44]
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Yes I think that’s right. But unless a bidder goes public, we would not know.
It’s all well and good just saying we want the owner to leave but unless there is a viable succession plan then the club will just career into more problems - an owner who doesn’t have the means or interest to stick it out long term is no better. At least Evans appears to be solid in that he’s willing to take a long term view. | | | |
| (No subject) on 12:51 - Mar 4 with 5267 views | monytowbray |
| (No subject) on 12:47 - Mar 4 by Oxford_Blue |
Yes I think that’s right. But unless a bidder goes public, we would not know.
It’s all well and good just saying we want the owner to leave but unless there is a viable succession plan then the club will just career into more problems - an owner who doesn’t have the means or interest to stick it out long term is no better. At least Evans appears to be solid in that he’s willing to take a long term view. |
That's why we need to rally around some experts and maybe crowdfund their efforts I think. Like the post above with the insights into accounting, we need someone like that and an actual organised team willing to fairly represent the fans to push action in a single correct direction.
My Dad thinks there should be a fan present at all board meetings to represent the voice of all too, one that gets changed by a fans vote every 2 years too to prevent personal interests being influenced (just to be safe). That would be a great idea IMO. [Post edited 4 Mar 2020 12:51]
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| (No subject) on 12:56 - Mar 4 with 5257 views | RegencyBlue |
| (No subject) on 12:47 - Mar 4 by Oxford_Blue |
Yes I think that’s right. But unless a bidder goes public, we would not know.
It’s all well and good just saying we want the owner to leave but unless there is a viable succession plan then the club will just career into more problems - an owner who doesn’t have the means or interest to stick it out long term is no better. At least Evans appears to be solid in that he’s willing to take a long term view. |
Much more of his long term view and we will be playing at Conference level!
A new owner may or may not be better than Evans but at least there is a chance things could improve. After twelve years we know what we are getting with Evans and its killing us as a club! | | | |
| (No subject) on 13:03 - Mar 4 with 5246 views | itfcjoe |
| (No subject) on 12:51 - Mar 4 by monytowbray |
That's why we need to rally around some experts and maybe crowdfund their efforts I think. Like the post above with the insights into accounting, we need someone like that and an actual organised team willing to fairly represent the fans to push action in a single correct direction.
My Dad thinks there should be a fan present at all board meetings to represent the voice of all too, one that gets changed by a fans vote every 2 years too to prevent personal interests being influenced (just to be safe). That would be a great idea IMO. [Post edited 4 Mar 2020 12:51]
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We don't even have a Board let alone Board meetings!
Evans is the decision maker, that is far from ideal but ultimately he is the one who has final say on everything |  |
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| (No subject) on 13:03 - Mar 4 with 5246 views | footers |
| (No subject) on 12:56 - Mar 4 by RegencyBlue |
Much more of his long term view and we will be playing at Conference level!
A new owner may or may not be better than Evans but at least there is a chance things could improve. After twelve years we know what we are getting with Evans and its killing us as a club! |
"A new [BLANK] may or may not be better than [BLANK] but at least there is a chance things could improve."
Now, where have we heard that before? |  |
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| (No subject) on 14:41 - Mar 4 with 5197 views | daisyisabaddog |
| (No subject) on 12:02 - Mar 4 by Swansea_Blue |
And therein lies the problem - ME's evaluation is presumably complicated by the debt. ME has already said he's had interest in the pass, but rejected it because the price wasn't right.
it won't be easy to find a new owner, let alone a good new one. But it certainly happens. Club takeovers are fairly common place.
We're started to become a sleeping giant (relatively), and that's going to become increasingly attractive to people the lower we drop. If ME is realistic with his asking price. |
I think that calling us a sleeping giant is a bit of an exaggeration. We are a moderate to small sized club that has over performed in the past. That success was due entirely to inspired managerial appointments, not because we are a "giant". Having said that, we are a damn sight better than L1 strugglers. I've been saying for some time that we should forget the past because it clouds the reality of the present. | | | |
| (No subject) on 14:53 - Mar 4 with 5185 views | PrideOfTheEast |
| (No subject) on 10:43 - Mar 4 by daisyisabaddog |
The only people who know about the tax situation are Evans and his advisors and HMRC. That information is not required as part of the information included in the accounts. Having recently retired after 40 years in the taxation/accountancy business I would think it highly unlikely that the clubs losses are being offset elsewhere within the Evans group of companies. One of the many restrictions to group tax loss relief is that the companies concerned must be run with a view to making a profit. That's a bit of a stretch in the current situation.
I have no inside knowledge of the club or other Evans companies but the fact that he stopped charging interest on the loan to ITFC may indicate that HMRC had some input into the loss situation.
Others in this thread have suggested that minority shareholders can stop liquidation. That's nonsense I'm afraid. If Evans stops funding losses it would be illegal for the club to carry on trading. The club would be put into Administration and would then be totally under the control of the Administrator. Their job would be to find the best deal available to the creditors, which in our case would be 90% Evans. If no one could be found to guarantee to fund the losses going forward the club would be liquidated. At that point, it is possible that Evans or one of his companies may be entitled to tax relief on the loan write off. It is impossible to judge without being able to see all the group accounts but if the loan has come from an offshore company tax relief would definitely not be available.
I'm worried about the current situation but more than worried about the long term. There is a possibility that we may end up out of the Football League without a ground. We are entirely reliant on one man. Several people have said he wouldn't want to damage his good name by walking away but he doesn't actually have a good name or reputation to worry about.
The good news is that Portsmouth got through a similar situation. The bad news is that Portsmouth didn't have a landlord who wanted to sell the ground for development.
In summary, it's unlikely that Evans is getting tax relief for our losses. In the highly unlikely event that he is it's only 20% of the loss. He is also highly unlikely to benefit in terms of tax from folding the club. But there must come a point when he says enough is enough. We are now facing another year in L1 with very restrictive FFP rules. I therefore think we may be getting close to the end. Which hopefully will also be the beginning of something much better. |
Sorry but the tax points you've tried to make are not accurate.
1) Losses in ITFC are offset against other entities in the ME Group. The benefit to ME of ITFC making a loss is therefore currently a mere 19%. It's fairly obvious from the tax notes that group relief is claimed/surrendered and there's no restriction to that in year.
2) He stopped charging interest primarily for the worldwide debt cap rules.
3) The loans have been provided from a combination of UK and non-UK legal entities in the wider ME Group. If they were written off you'd see a credit in the ITFC P&L and an equivalent debit in each of the lenders. Any benefit would be nominal, in particular for the Hungarian finco (a common structure) who has lent a big chunk of the funds.
He doesn't materially benefit from a tax benefit whatever happens. [Post edited 4 Mar 2020 14:56]
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| "We want Evans Out"... on 14:59 - Mar 4 with 5170 views | Stewart27 |
Come on fella the Evans Out campaign is just as pathetic as the players and manager. People got shot down for even thinking of doing such a thing. | | | |
| "We want Evans Out"... on 15:04 - Mar 4 with 5159 views | Radlett_blue |
Evans could put Town into administration, but he would be terminally stupid if he did so as he would recover next to nothing from his investment. However, if he wants to stop having to fund Town's operating losses, he can wrote of the debt (which is irrecoverable anyway unless we get to the Premier League) and then sell a debt free Town for £15m or so. |  |
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| "We want Evans Out"... on 15:14 - Mar 4 with 5146 views | monytowbray |
| "We want Evans Out"... on 15:04 - Mar 4 by Radlett_blue |
Evans could put Town into administration, but he would be terminally stupid if he did so as he would recover next to nothing from his investment. However, if he wants to stop having to fund Town's operating losses, he can wrote of the debt (which is irrecoverable anyway unless we get to the Premier League) and then sell a debt free Town for £15m or so. |
There are so many options available, like setting up a payment plan of X% of income based on what league we are in or cup runs until £X of his debts are recovered.
We're miles from stuck with Evans and Evans is miles from stuck with us if everyone actually started piling on pressure to discuss exit plans. | |
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| "We want Evans Out"... on 15:20 - Mar 4 with 5134 views | PrideOfTheEast |
| "We want Evans Out"... on 15:14 - Mar 4 by monytowbray |
There are so many options available, like setting up a payment plan of X% of income based on what league we are in or cup runs until £X of his debts are recovered.
We're miles from stuck with Evans and Evans is miles from stuck with us if everyone actually started piling on pressure to discuss exit plans. |
Obviously plenty of options if somebody willing to take the club on has the significant financial resources to throw away each year. Not happening is it. | | | |
| "We want Evans Out"... on 15:25 - Mar 4 with 5119 views | monytowbray |
| "We want Evans Out"... on 15:20 - Mar 4 by PrideOfTheEast |
Obviously plenty of options if somebody willing to take the club on has the significant financial resources to throw away each year. Not happening is it. |
Dunno, plenty of clubs do. Derby, Sheff Weds, these people exist, just need to find one. | |
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| "We want Evans Out"... on 15:53 - Mar 4 with 5105 views | PrideOfTheEast |
| "We want Evans Out"... on 15:25 - Mar 4 by monytowbray |
Dunno, plenty of clubs do. Derby, Sheff Weds, these people exist, just need to find one. |
Plenty of clubs have historically. Whether that continues, who knows.
Unfortunately Ipswich is nothing like as attractive as a Derby, Sheff Weds to an outsider. | | | |
| "We want Evans Out"... on 15:57 - Mar 4 with 5094 views | monytowbray |
| "We want Evans Out"... on 15:53 - Mar 4 by PrideOfTheEast |
Plenty of clubs have historically. Whether that continues, who knows.
Unfortunately Ipswich is nothing like as attractive as a Derby, Sheff Weds to an outsider. |
Based on what? Wolves would be my first response to that. | |
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| (No subject) on 16:09 - Mar 4 with 5074 views | longtimefan |
| (No subject) on 14:53 - Mar 4 by PrideOfTheEast |
Sorry but the tax points you've tried to make are not accurate.
1) Losses in ITFC are offset against other entities in the ME Group. The benefit to ME of ITFC making a loss is therefore currently a mere 19%. It's fairly obvious from the tax notes that group relief is claimed/surrendered and there's no restriction to that in year.
2) He stopped charging interest primarily for the worldwide debt cap rules.
3) The loans have been provided from a combination of UK and non-UK legal entities in the wider ME Group. If they were written off you'd see a credit in the ITFC P&L and an equivalent debit in each of the lenders. Any benefit would be nominal, in particular for the Hungarian finco (a common structure) who has lent a big chunk of the funds.
He doesn't materially benefit from a tax benefit whatever happens. [Post edited 4 Mar 2020 14:56]
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”The benefit to ME of ITFC making a loss is therefore currently a mere 19%.”
There is no benefit to ME in making a loss. The tax offset merely reduces the loss to 81% of the headline figure. He would be better off making no loss or a lower loss! [Post edited 4 Mar 2020 16:23]
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| "We want Evans Out"... on 16:32 - Mar 4 with 5056 views | hype313 |
| "We want Evans Out"... on 15:57 - Mar 4 by monytowbray |
Based on what? Wolves would be my first response to that. |
Attendances for a start |  |
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| "We want Evans Out"... on 16:40 - Mar 4 with 5040 views | footers |
| "We want Evans Out"... on 16:32 - Mar 4 by hype313 |
Attendances for a start |
The city as a second. | |
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| "We want Evans Out"... on 17:51 - Mar 4 with 5016 views | Radlett_blue |
| "We want Evans Out"... on 15:14 - Mar 4 by monytowbray |
There are so many options available, like setting up a payment plan of X% of income based on what league we are in or cup runs until £X of his debts are recovered.
We're miles from stuck with Evans and Evans is miles from stuck with us if everyone actually started piling on pressure to discuss exit plans. |
How can fans put real pressure on Evans? He controls 87.5% of the club. Yes, it's hard to see what he gets out of owning Town and if there were regular anti-Evans chants he might be keener to sell, but with us now stuck in the 3rd tier, there will be far fewer buyers wanting to take Town of his hands at an acceptable price.
There are also no guarantees that new owners would be willing to fund Town to a greater degree than Evans, especially if they'd stretched themselves to buy Town in the first place. | |
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| "We want Evans Out"... on 18:06 - Mar 4 with 5007 views | footers |
| "We want Evans Out"... on 17:51 - Mar 4 by Radlett_blue |
How can fans put real pressure on Evans? He controls 87.5% of the club. Yes, it's hard to see what he gets out of owning Town and if there were regular anti-Evans chants he might be keener to sell, but with us now stuck in the 3rd tier, there will be far fewer buyers wanting to take Town of his hands at an acceptable price.
There are also no guarantees that new owners would be willing to fund Town to a greater degree than Evans, especially if they'd stretched themselves to buy Town in the first place. |
Put an advert up in the paper shop window. Sure it'd get some interest. | |
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| (No subject) on 18:19 - Mar 4 with 4996 views | jaykay |
| (No subject) on 10:43 - Mar 4 by daisyisabaddog |
The only people who know about the tax situation are Evans and his advisors and HMRC. That information is not required as part of the information included in the accounts. Having recently retired after 40 years in the taxation/accountancy business I would think it highly unlikely that the clubs losses are being offset elsewhere within the Evans group of companies. One of the many restrictions to group tax loss relief is that the companies concerned must be run with a view to making a profit. That's a bit of a stretch in the current situation.
I have no inside knowledge of the club or other Evans companies but the fact that he stopped charging interest on the loan to ITFC may indicate that HMRC had some input into the loss situation.
Others in this thread have suggested that minority shareholders can stop liquidation. That's nonsense I'm afraid. If Evans stops funding losses it would be illegal for the club to carry on trading. The club would be put into Administration and would then be totally under the control of the Administrator. Their job would be to find the best deal available to the creditors, which in our case would be 90% Evans. If no one could be found to guarantee to fund the losses going forward the club would be liquidated. At that point, it is possible that Evans or one of his companies may be entitled to tax relief on the loan write off. It is impossible to judge without being able to see all the group accounts but if the loan has come from an offshore company tax relief would definitely not be available.
I'm worried about the current situation but more than worried about the long term. There is a possibility that we may end up out of the Football League without a ground. We are entirely reliant on one man. Several people have said he wouldn't want to damage his good name by walking away but he doesn't actually have a good name or reputation to worry about.
The good news is that Portsmouth got through a similar situation. The bad news is that Portsmouth didn't have a landlord who wanted to sell the ground for development.
In summary, it's unlikely that Evans is getting tax relief for our losses. In the highly unlikely event that he is it's only 20% of the loss. He is also highly unlikely to benefit in terms of tax from folding the club. But there must come a point when he says enough is enough. We are now facing another year in L1 with very restrictive FFP rules. I therefore think we may be getting close to the end. Which hopefully will also be the beginning of something much better. |
no idea about the money side of things but i thought the only thing that we were safe on , is we wouldn't lose the ground what ever evans did. |  |
| forensic experts say footers and spruces fingerprints were not found at the scene after the weekends rows |
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