| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party 21:07 - Apr 11 with 8976 views | Enigma_Blue |
Has appointed Naz Shah as Shadow Minister for Community Cohesion. The same Naz Shah who was stripped of the parliamentary whip and suspended for 3 months for posting antisemitic comments on FB and Tweets.
I hope this isn't going to be a sign of things to come from Starmer. |  | | |  |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 10:18 - Apr 13 with 735 views | itfcjoe |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 10:04 - Apr 13 by Darth_Koont |
I think we're at cross-purposes. While in power, a centrist Labour lost Scotland and started to let the Northern heartlands slide away. Now you're saying that they should do what got them elected in the first place - well, what got them elected in the first place was bedrock support from the regions and the working class, topped off with a bit of Murdoch-sanctioned middle-class appeal.
Labour needed to get back to its roots (and its relevance) rather than becoming a new LibDems. Corbyn certainly made inroads in 2017 but it's an uphill struggle when you're fighting the media, half your own party and a frankly @ss-backward definition of "effective opposition" that is actually being defined by your opponents.
We've gone too far to the right as a country for a socialist/social democrat opposition to be playing at centrism. And there's frankly too much structural inequality to ignore. |
Labour have spent most of the time Corbyn was in charge appealing to the young middle classes and not the working class. |  |
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| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 10:21 - Apr 13 with 731 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 10:04 - Apr 13 by Darth_Koont |
I think we're at cross-purposes. While in power, a centrist Labour lost Scotland and started to let the Northern heartlands slide away. Now you're saying that they should do what got them elected in the first place - well, what got them elected in the first place was bedrock support from the regions and the working class, topped off with a bit of Murdoch-sanctioned middle-class appeal.
Labour needed to get back to its roots (and its relevance) rather than becoming a new LibDems. Corbyn certainly made inroads in 2017 but it's an uphill struggle when you're fighting the media, half your own party and a frankly @ss-backward definition of "effective opposition" that is actually being defined by your opponents.
We've gone too far to the right as a country for a socialist/social democrat opposition to be playing at centrism. And there's frankly too much structural inequality to ignore. |
Hold on, using your own vote share metric, when Blair came to power in 1997 Labour won 45.6% of the Scottish vote. That share was still 42% under Brown in 2010 - it is only in the years since the vote share has been slashed, right down to 18.6% in 2019
Tell me again how it was New Labour which lost Scotland rather than the Labour that has followed?
History shows that Labour can only win elections by appealing to the centre - chasing a more left-leaning agenda has proven time and again to be a failure. And suggesting that a Corbyn-led Labour was somehow getting back to working class roots is laughable when actual election results show complete rejection from that very audience. But obviously that’s everyone else’s fault |  |
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| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 10:23 - Apr 13 with 724 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 10:18 - Apr 13 by itfcjoe |
Labour have spent most of the time Corbyn was in charge appealing to the young middle classes and not the working class. |
Well quite, indeed one only needs to look on here to see most of their most fervent supporters holding down cost London jobs, not to mention continuously attacking and taking the p*ss out of those for whom life is more a struggle | |
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| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 10:26 - Apr 13 with 710 views | Darth_Koont |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 10:18 - Apr 13 by itfcjoe |
Labour have spent most of the time Corbyn was in charge appealing to the young middle classes and not the working class. |
How do you work that out? That's not reflected in the last two manifestos, nor the increased connection to the unions over the Corbyn years. |  |
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| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 10:35 - Apr 13 with 686 views | Darth_Koont |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 10:21 - Apr 13 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
Hold on, using your own vote share metric, when Blair came to power in 1997 Labour won 45.6% of the Scottish vote. That share was still 42% under Brown in 2010 - it is only in the years since the vote share has been slashed, right down to 18.6% in 2019
Tell me again how it was New Labour which lost Scotland rather than the Labour that has followed?
History shows that Labour can only win elections by appealing to the centre - chasing a more left-leaning agenda has proven time and again to be a failure. And suggesting that a Corbyn-led Labour was somehow getting back to working class roots is laughable when actual election results show complete rejection from that very audience. But obviously that’s everyone else’s fault |
In Scotland, the SNP comfortably took the social democrat territory from them. Similarly UKIP and Brexiteers easily took working-class and Northern votes. This is all based on what Labour did or rather didn't do while in power. Gordon Brown had the decency to admit that he regret not doing more to address these structural inequalities.
History has told us that Labour needs its traditional support if it's going to stand a chance. So far, Starmer is saying the right things about maintaining a policy platform that represents these people again.
Let the centrist voters decide for themselves how relevant and important that is. And let's stop moving UK politics to the right by chasing them. | |
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| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 10:40 - Apr 13 with 663 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 10:35 - Apr 13 by Darth_Koont |
In Scotland, the SNP comfortably took the social democrat territory from them. Similarly UKIP and Brexiteers easily took working-class and Northern votes. This is all based on what Labour did or rather didn't do while in power. Gordon Brown had the decency to admit that he regret not doing more to address these structural inequalities.
History has told us that Labour needs its traditional support if it's going to stand a chance. So far, Starmer is saying the right things about maintaining a policy platform that represents these people again.
Let the centrist voters decide for themselves how relevant and important that is. And let's stop moving UK politics to the right by chasing them. |
The SNP won a lower share of the vote in 2010 than they did in 1997
Similarly UKIP only received a very small share in 2010 - their rise came later
History show Labour needs its traditional base plus middle-ground support in order to be successful, which makes your continuous fawning over a version of Labour which completely alienated the former and rejection of any attempt to appeal to the latter all the more laugable | |
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| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 10:45 - Apr 13 with 646 views | itfcjoe |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 10:26 - Apr 13 by Darth_Koont |
How do you work that out? That's not reflected in the last two manifestos, nor the increased connection to the unions over the Corbyn years. |
By looking at who is supporting them and who is voting for them | |
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| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 10:52 - Apr 13 with 620 views | tractordownsouth |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 10:26 - Apr 13 by Darth_Koont |
How do you work that out? That's not reflected in the last two manifestos, nor the increased connection to the unions over the Corbyn years. |
I think there's been a lot in the manifesto for the working classes but the way they've marketed it has been more for the middle classes, which is partly to blame for the defeats. For example, scrapping tuition fees was the most prominent policy in 2017 - something that generally affects those who are slightly better off. |  |
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| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 10:53 - Apr 13 with 612 views | lowhouseblue |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 10:45 - Apr 13 by itfcjoe |
By looking at who is supporting them and who is voting for them |
really there's no need to bring voters into this. corbyn didn't win all those arguments by worrying about voters. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 10:55 - Apr 13 with 604 views | GlasgowBlue |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 10:04 - Apr 13 by Darth_Koont |
I think we're at cross-purposes. While in power, a centrist Labour lost Scotland and started to let the Northern heartlands slide away. Now you're saying that they should do what got them elected in the first place - well, what got them elected in the first place was bedrock support from the regions and the working class, topped off with a bit of Murdoch-sanctioned middle-class appeal.
Labour needed to get back to its roots (and its relevance) rather than becoming a new LibDems. Corbyn certainly made inroads in 2017 but it's an uphill struggle when you're fighting the media, half your own party and a frankly @ss-backward definition of "effective opposition" that is actually being defined by your opponents.
We've gone too far to the right as a country for a socialist/social democrat opposition to be playing at centrism. And there's frankly too much structural inequality to ignore. |
You keep banging on about how a centrist Labour oarty lost Scotland but the stats don’t show that.
1992 Kinnock 1,142,911.
1997 Blair 1,283,350.
2001 Blair 1,017,226.
2005 Blair. 922,402.
2010 Brown 1,035,528.
2015 Miliband. 707,147
So other than a dip after the Iraq war, which was reflected across the entire U.K. (The Tories won the popular vote in England) New Labour increased the vote for Labour in Scotland and lost it under Ed Miliband who went out of his way to disown New Labour. [Post edited 13 Apr 2020 11:02]
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| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 10:59 - Apr 13 with 588 views | tractordownsouth |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 10:55 - Apr 13 by GlasgowBlue |
You keep banging on about how a centrist Labour oarty lost Scotland but the stats don’t show that.
1992 Kinnock 1,142,911.
1997 Blair 1,283,350.
2001 Blair 1,017,226.
2005 Blair. 922,402.
2010 Brown 1,035,528.
2015 Miliband. 707,147
So other than a dip after the Iraq war, which was reflected across the entire U.K. (The Tories won the popular vote in England) New Labour increased the vote for Labour in Scotland and lost it under Ed Miliband who went out of his way to disown New Labour. [Post edited 13 Apr 2020 11:02]
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I do think Miliband's strategy was poor, sort of a halfway house between austerity lite and investment, which allowed the SNP to be the clear progressive alternative, so I do think there's a bit of truth in what DK is saying. However, the argument falls down when looking at the 2017 and 2019 results, as we didn't make progress in Scotland with a clearly left wing manifesto. | |
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| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 11:13 - Apr 13 with 557 views | Darth_Koont |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 10:45 - Apr 13 by itfcjoe |
By looking at who is supporting them and who is voting for them |
But that's assuming you haven't dropped the ball in the past with the regions and working-class and you're playing catch-up to other parties and movements.
Appealing to them is part of a progressive Labour party. And hopefully that continues with Starmer. | |
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| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 11:16 - Apr 13 with 550 views | itfcjoe |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 11:13 - Apr 13 by Darth_Koont |
But that's assuming you haven't dropped the ball in the past with the regions and working-class and you're playing catch-up to other parties and movements.
Appealing to them is part of a progressive Labour party. And hopefully that continues with Starmer. |
If you are haemorrhaging votes in those areas then you are not appealing to them - blame who you want for that but the reality is Corbyn and his project did not appeal to the working classes | |
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| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 11:16 - Apr 13 with 548 views | Darth_Koont |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 10:55 - Apr 13 by GlasgowBlue |
You keep banging on about how a centrist Labour oarty lost Scotland but the stats don’t show that.
1992 Kinnock 1,142,911.
1997 Blair 1,283,350.
2001 Blair 1,017,226.
2005 Blair. 922,402.
2010 Brown 1,035,528.
2015 Miliband. 707,147
So other than a dip after the Iraq war, which was reflected across the entire U.K. (The Tories won the popular vote in England) New Labour increased the vote for Labour in Scotland and lost it under Ed Miliband who went out of his way to disown New Labour. [Post edited 13 Apr 2020 11:02]
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Yes, they do.
Labour were routed by the SNP when they came along promising the sort of social democracy and representation Labour hadn't provided over the years. That gap in real terms made the SNP a force, not to mention accelerated the movement for Independence. | |
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| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 11:20 - Apr 13 with 536 views | Darth_Koont |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 10:59 - Apr 13 by tractordownsouth |
I do think Miliband's strategy was poor, sort of a halfway house between austerity lite and investment, which allowed the SNP to be the clear progressive alternative, so I do think there's a bit of truth in what DK is saying. However, the argument falls down when looking at the 2017 and 2019 results, as we didn't make progress in Scotland with a clearly left wing manifesto. |
It's uphill in Scotland because the SNP now dominate this area of the political spectrum. Corbyn was relatively popular though.
But distrust for Labour as a whole is still a problem. And the Labour right in particular has done nothing but reinforce that over the past decade. | |
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| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 11:28 - Apr 13 with 527 views | tractordownsouth |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 11:20 - Apr 13 by Darth_Koont |
It's uphill in Scotland because the SNP now dominate this area of the political spectrum. Corbyn was relatively popular though.
But distrust for Labour as a whole is still a problem. And the Labour right in particular has done nothing but reinforce that over the past decade. |
If you say that Corbyn had an uphill task because Scotland had voted for SNP once in 2015, then surely Starmer has a hell of a task trying to get back the working class after they swung towards the Tories in both 2017 and 2019. | |
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| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 11:28 - Apr 13 with 525 views | Darth_Koont |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 11:16 - Apr 13 by itfcjoe |
If you are haemorrhaging votes in those areas then you are not appealing to them - blame who you want for that but the reality is Corbyn and his project did not appeal to the working classes |
This isn't happening in a vacuum though.
We've had Brexit with foreigners being blamed for society's ills throughout much of the last decade. That sort of cheap populism is hard to fight against, particularly when the majority of the media is championing it.
We're talking about ground that has been lost already. | |
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| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 11:31 - Apr 13 with 520 views | Darth_Koont |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 11:28 - Apr 13 by tractordownsouth |
If you say that Corbyn had an uphill task because Scotland had voted for SNP once in 2015, then surely Starmer has a hell of a task trying to get back the working class after they swung towards the Tories in both 2017 and 2019. |
Yes, he does.
But there's a chance. I think the continuing sh!tshow of Brexit coupled with a few truths brought home by Coronavirus can shift the discussion to more relevant policies. | |
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| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 11:32 - Apr 13 with 518 views | midastouch |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 10:21 - Apr 13 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
Hold on, using your own vote share metric, when Blair came to power in 1997 Labour won 45.6% of the Scottish vote. That share was still 42% under Brown in 2010 - it is only in the years since the vote share has been slashed, right down to 18.6% in 2019
Tell me again how it was New Labour which lost Scotland rather than the Labour that has followed?
History shows that Labour can only win elections by appealing to the centre - chasing a more left-leaning agenda has proven time and again to be a failure. And suggesting that a Corbyn-led Labour was somehow getting back to working class roots is laughable when actual election results show complete rejection from that very audience. But obviously that’s everyone else’s fault |
How about the following argument by Shirley Williams? That is a "loose coalition of parties of the left" would be more effective than the current, dysfunctional Labour party. Although obviously her SDP political baggage needs to be taken into account.
One counter argument might be that they couldn't put their divisions properly aside (I'm thinking Swinson not being prepared to back Corbyn) to have a fully united front against Brexit. Although we know Corbyn was very wishy washy when it came to his policy over Brexit. Actually, wasn't his policy on that front driven by Starmer in the end?
Anyway I'm going off track a bit, I certainly don't want to get the old Brexit bandwagon debate going again. I was thinking more of, is there any merit in the left trying to get some sort of workable coalition together? I say this because Labour seems very divided with so much infighting and it's going to take a remarkable leader to get control of it. The rot seems so bad I don't know if it's already gone past the point of no return. Obviously Starmer is going to try and heal the wounds but I think it could well be beyond him.
That's not to say the Tories are such a happy family as we know how the issue of Europe has plagued them down the years. But the Labour Party seem even more divided at present and I don't necessarily see a quick changing of the guard leadership fix as being the answer. Their divisions seem so deep-rooted they almost seem unelectable. Can they even get their house in order again? Will they ever be able to hang together in relative harmony as a broad church again? Time will tell. |  |
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| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 11:37 - Apr 13 with 498 views | itfcjoe |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 11:28 - Apr 13 by Darth_Koont |
This isn't happening in a vacuum though.
We've had Brexit with foreigners being blamed for society's ills throughout much of the last decade. That sort of cheap populism is hard to fight against, particularly when the majority of the media is championing it.
We're talking about ground that has been lost already. |
They didn't even slow the tide, let alone stop it | |
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| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 11:44 - Apr 13 with 480 views | Darth_Koont |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 11:32 - Apr 13 by midastouch |
How about the following argument by Shirley Williams? That is a "loose coalition of parties of the left" would be more effective than the current, dysfunctional Labour party. Although obviously her SDP political baggage needs to be taken into account.
One counter argument might be that they couldn't put their divisions properly aside (I'm thinking Swinson not being prepared to back Corbyn) to have a fully united front against Brexit. Although we know Corbyn was very wishy washy when it came to his policy over Brexit. Actually, wasn't his policy on that front driven by Starmer in the end?
Anyway I'm going off track a bit, I certainly don't want to get the old Brexit bandwagon debate going again. I was thinking more of, is there any merit in the left trying to get some sort of workable coalition together? I say this because Labour seems very divided with so much infighting and it's going to take a remarkable leader to get control of it. The rot seems so bad I don't know if it's already gone past the point of no return. Obviously Starmer is going to try and heal the wounds but I think it could well be beyond him.
That's not to say the Tories are such a happy family as we know how the issue of Europe has plagued them down the years. But the Labour Party seem even more divided at present and I don't necessarily see a quick changing of the guard leadership fix as being the answer. Their divisions seem so deep-rooted they almost seem unelectable. Can they even get their house in order again? Will they ever be able to hang together in relative harmony as a broad church again? Time will tell. |
The discussion needs to be about what is objectively needed from a left-wing party and, in turn, what is objectively needed for the UK in the 21st century.
In that respect we don't need Brexit, but we do need structural inequality to be addressed and we need to give people much better representation and protection. Put simply, we need a party that will push for a more equitable and sustainable balance.
All of which should be blindingly obvious in a developed country in 2020. But it shows how utterly inept and indeed corrupt our politics and media have become that this is still seen as a radical point of view. | |
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| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 11:46 - Apr 13 with 474 views | itfcjoe |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 11:32 - Apr 13 by midastouch |
How about the following argument by Shirley Williams? That is a "loose coalition of parties of the left" would be more effective than the current, dysfunctional Labour party. Although obviously her SDP political baggage needs to be taken into account.
One counter argument might be that they couldn't put their divisions properly aside (I'm thinking Swinson not being prepared to back Corbyn) to have a fully united front against Brexit. Although we know Corbyn was very wishy washy when it came to his policy over Brexit. Actually, wasn't his policy on that front driven by Starmer in the end?
Anyway I'm going off track a bit, I certainly don't want to get the old Brexit bandwagon debate going again. I was thinking more of, is there any merit in the left trying to get some sort of workable coalition together? I say this because Labour seems very divided with so much infighting and it's going to take a remarkable leader to get control of it. The rot seems so bad I don't know if it's already gone past the point of no return. Obviously Starmer is going to try and heal the wounds but I think it could well be beyond him.
That's not to say the Tories are such a happy family as we know how the issue of Europe has plagued them down the years. But the Labour Party seem even more divided at present and I don't necessarily see a quick changing of the guard leadership fix as being the answer. Their divisions seem so deep-rooted they almost seem unelectable. Can they even get their house in order again? Will they ever be able to hang together in relative harmony as a broad church again? Time will tell. |
There is a real argument for some form of 'Progressive Alliance', because the supporters of the Lib Dems have far more in common with the supporters of the Labour party, as do the Greens, etc.
But rather than see that the enemy of my enemy is my friend, the Labour Party, and especially those that have been running it in recent times, sees anyone that disagrees with anything that they stand for as their enemy. It's bonkers really, but goes along with the belief that they have the most virtue, and anyone who doesn't agree isn't as 'good' as they are | |
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| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 11:48 - Apr 13 with 461 views | Darth_Koont |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 11:37 - Apr 13 by itfcjoe |
They didn't even slow the tide, let alone stop it |
Getting that message out there was extremely tough for a whole host of reasons. It doesn't make it wrong though. | |
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| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 11:54 - Apr 13 with 448 views | Darth_Koont |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 11:46 - Apr 13 by itfcjoe |
There is a real argument for some form of 'Progressive Alliance', because the supporters of the Lib Dems have far more in common with the supporters of the Labour party, as do the Greens, etc.
But rather than see that the enemy of my enemy is my friend, the Labour Party, and especially those that have been running it in recent times, sees anyone that disagrees with anything that they stand for as their enemy. It's bonkers really, but goes along with the belief that they have the most virtue, and anyone who doesn't agree isn't as 'good' as they are |
Not sure that stacks up to be honest. Swinson and the LibDems spent more time attacking the Labour Party than the Tories and were clearly trying to expand their electoral niche.
Why don't centrist people just vote LibDems rather than trying to change the Labour Party? I know they're forced into it somewhat by the FPTP system and there only being space for two main parties but it's this lack of principle (and taking away the ability to provide a genuine alternative) that makes it all a meaningless game. | |
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| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 12:01 - Apr 13 with 424 views | itfcjoe |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 11:54 - Apr 13 by Darth_Koont |
Not sure that stacks up to be honest. Swinson and the LibDems spent more time attacking the Labour Party than the Tories and were clearly trying to expand their electoral niche.
Why don't centrist people just vote LibDems rather than trying to change the Labour Party? I know they're forced into it somewhat by the FPTP system and there only being space for two main parties but it's this lack of principle (and taking away the ability to provide a genuine alternative) that makes it all a meaningless game. |
Without PR you are forced into voting for the best option | |
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