| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party 21:07 - Apr 11 with 8166 views | Enigma_Blue |
Has appointed Naz Shah as Shadow Minister for Community Cohesion. The same Naz Shah who was stripped of the parliamentary whip and suspended for 3 months for posting antisemitic comments on FB and Tweets.
I hope this isn't going to be a sign of things to come from Starmer. |  | | |  |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 11:05 - Apr 12 with 1458 views | Darth_Koont |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 07:56 - Apr 12 by GlasgowBlue |
Naz Shah called for the mass “transportation“ of Israelis out of the Middle East. Corbyn quite rightly said at the time “What Naz Shah did was offensive and unacceptable. I have spoken to her and made this clear”.
Prior to that she had compared the state of Israel to Nazi Germany, which breaches the IHRA definition of antisemitism (drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis).
She had also contributed to a Facebook poll regarding whether Israel was committing war crimes with the comment The Jews are rallying to the poll it’s 87% disagreeing and 13% agreeing.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/apr/27/naz-shah-timeline-of-events-lea
She admitted that her words were antisemitic when she resigned and issued a full and genuine apology.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-36802075
This subject really is a blind spot to you and it beggars belief that you say she did nothing wrong.
She’s worked very hard to rebuild her career as a constituency MP and engaged fully with the Jewish community to move on and she’s been a credit imo. She understood what she had said was wrong and made efforts not to repeat those tropes. I have no issue with somebody like Naz Shah being a shadow minister.
[Post edited 12 Apr 2020 8:08]
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All of which goes to show that it was counter-productive bending over backwards and trying to appease the zealots out for pro-Palestinian blood.
It was a political point from Finkelstein that was turned into an antisemitic one by pretending this was the suggestion of another "transportation". Shameless stuff.
And please stop banging on about the IHRA definition. You know it's highly problematic and not at all widely accepted. Again the examples are driven by zealots who want to shut down the debate.
I will agree that her use of "Jews" is suspect even if it may have been accurate. Now that could easily be deemed antisemitic and at least should have been explained and apologized for being unnecessarily linked to people's Jewishness. She more accurately should have said Zionists. |  |
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| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 11:34 - Apr 12 with 1435 views | Bluesquid |
Well, well, well, would you Adam and Eve it?
"An extensive internal investigation into the way Labour handled antisemitism complaints will not be submitted to the Equality and Human Rights Commission, after an intervention by party lawyers."
"The 860-page report, seen by Sky News, concluded factional hostility towards Jeremy Corbyn amongst former senior officials contributed to "a litany of mistakes" that hindered the effective handling of the issue."
"The investigation, which was completed in the last month of Jeremy Corbyn's leadership, claims to have found "no evidence" of antisemitism complaints being treated differently to other forms of complaint, or of current or former staff being "motivated by antisemitic intent"."
"As well as 10,000 separate emails, the dossier uncovers thousands of private WhatsApp communications between former senior party officials and singles out for criticism some who gave whistleblower evidence to last year's highly-critical BBC Panorama investigation on antisemitism within Labour."
"Indeed the report directly addresses the EHRC on several occasions, including urging the watchdog to "question the validity of the personal testimonies" of former members of staff and to "focus instead on the documentary, primary-source evidence that the Party has made available", leaving little doubt as to the intention of its authors that the document be submitted to the investigation."
"The report claims private communications show senior former staff "openly worked against the aims and objectives of the leadership of the Party, and in the 2017 general election some key staff even appeared to work against the Party's core objective of winning elections"."
https://news.sky.com/story/labour-antisemitism-investigation-will-not-be-sent-to | | | |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 12:00 - Apr 12 with 1412 views | longtimefan |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 10:09 - Apr 12 by ElephantintheRoom |
I think you'll find the corona virus is as anti-semitic as it is anti-everything else. All Starmer has to do is focus on the appalling mismanagment of this country over the last 12 years - and perhaps get his lackies to watch Bill Gates preaching to the converted in 2015 that the world is singular unprepared for a viral pandemic.
Then perhaps, IF idiots can be persuaded to stop voting conservative the world might become a better place. |
And Labour by your timeframe then. It’s probably one of the few things you’ve uttered that I agree with  | | | |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 12:15 - Apr 12 with 1389 views | Darth_Koont |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 11:34 - Apr 12 by Bluesquid |
Well, well, well, would you Adam and Eve it?
"An extensive internal investigation into the way Labour handled antisemitism complaints will not be submitted to the Equality and Human Rights Commission, after an intervention by party lawyers."
"The 860-page report, seen by Sky News, concluded factional hostility towards Jeremy Corbyn amongst former senior officials contributed to "a litany of mistakes" that hindered the effective handling of the issue."
"The investigation, which was completed in the last month of Jeremy Corbyn's leadership, claims to have found "no evidence" of antisemitism complaints being treated differently to other forms of complaint, or of current or former staff being "motivated by antisemitic intent"."
"As well as 10,000 separate emails, the dossier uncovers thousands of private WhatsApp communications between former senior party officials and singles out for criticism some who gave whistleblower evidence to last year's highly-critical BBC Panorama investigation on antisemitism within Labour."
"Indeed the report directly addresses the EHRC on several occasions, including urging the watchdog to "question the validity of the personal testimonies" of former members of staff and to "focus instead on the documentary, primary-source evidence that the Party has made available", leaving little doubt as to the intention of its authors that the document be submitted to the investigation."
"The report claims private communications show senior former staff "openly worked against the aims and objectives of the leadership of the Party, and in the 2017 general election some key staff even appeared to work against the Party's core objective of winning elections"."
https://news.sky.com/story/labour-antisemitism-investigation-will-not-be-sent-to |
Any attempts to whitewash this and "move on" need calling out.
It's a stain on our democracy. One of the worst and most shamelessly politicised and weaponised smear campaigns that has been amplified by an awful media that doesn't have the integrity or the balls to address the evidence. | |
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| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 12:42 - Apr 12 with 1352 views | GlasgowBlue |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 12:15 - Apr 12 by Darth_Koont |
Any attempts to whitewash this and "move on" need calling out.
It's a stain on our democracy. One of the worst and most shamelessly politicised and weaponised smear campaigns that has been amplified by an awful media that doesn't have the integrity or the balls to address the evidence. |
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| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 12:44 - Apr 12 with 1338 views | tractordownsouth |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 12:42 - Apr 12 by GlasgowBlue |
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I've seen people on twitter blaming this on Starmer, but surely it was written under JC and Formby and the lawyers were hired before Starmer arrived? |  |
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| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 12:46 - Apr 12 with 1331 views | Darth_Koont |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 12:40 - Apr 12 by tractordownsouth |
How many times does it need to be said? Vote share means diddly squat without the seats...
This is the only stat that matters
Blair: 418, 413 and 356 seats
Corbyn: 262 and 202 seats |
But seats can be more or less random and dependent on other factors, not least the MP candidates or how close the race is.
The global vote share is at least measurable. And the idea that Corbyn took Labour backwards after 2005, 2010 and 2015 is laughable. Focusing on policy rather than empty centrist party politics brought Labour into the 21st Century.
Starmer at least seems to be suggesting that this policy platform should stay if Labour are to remain relevant. | |
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| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 12:47 - Apr 12 with 1325 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 12:44 - Apr 12 by tractordownsouth |
I've seen people on twitter blaming this on Starmer, but surely it was written under JC and Formby and the lawyers were hired before Starmer arrived? |
Starmer has been there all the time, I suspect he has been letting them just get on with carving chunks out of each other and is now reaping the rewards... |  |
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| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 12:49 - Apr 12 with 1317 views | tractordownsouth |
Of course Shah's remarks were racist, but to her credit she submitted a full apology and held a meeting with the Board of Deputies to discuss how to move forward. Not perfect of course, but at least she's clearly changed her views.
If he'd kept Richard Burgon I would be concerned however. | |
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| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 12:50 - Apr 12 with 1315 views | Darth_Koont |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 12:42 - Apr 12 by GlasgowBlue |
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This was talked about as early as the beginning of 2019. The process was being sabotaged from within by those who were then given the platform of a one-eyed Panorama documentary to pretend that they were doing their utmost to expedite complaints.
As I said, the fact that so many politicians and the media went along with it uncritically or even amplified the smears is a stain on our democracy. | |
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| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 12:53 - Apr 12 with 1301 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 12:46 - Apr 12 by Darth_Koont |
But seats can be more or less random and dependent on other factors, not least the MP candidates or how close the race is.
The global vote share is at least measurable. And the idea that Corbyn took Labour backwards after 2005, 2010 and 2015 is laughable. Focusing on policy rather than empty centrist party politics brought Labour into the 21st Century.
Starmer at least seems to be suggesting that this policy platform should stay if Labour are to remain relevant. |
If Starmer commits to PR following the review that would probably swing it for me personally...the LCER are pushing hard to get it adopted as official policy.. | |
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| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 12:54 - Apr 12 with 1298 views | tractordownsouth |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 12:46 - Apr 12 by Darth_Koont |
But seats can be more or less random and dependent on other factors, not least the MP candidates or how close the race is.
The global vote share is at least measurable. And the idea that Corbyn took Labour backwards after 2005, 2010 and 2015 is laughable. Focusing on policy rather than empty centrist party politics brought Labour into the 21st Century.
Starmer at least seems to be suggesting that this policy platform should stay if Labour are to remain relevant. |
Had he resigned after 2017 I'd have a much more favourable opinion on him... he'd have left us with a platform to win the next general election, and he did generate a lot of enthusiasm for Labour during the campaign.
However, the fact he stayed on and presided over the worst post war defeat, as well as the AS stuff (which mostly came post 2017) means he will be deemed as the biggest failure since Michael Foot. The fact he couldn't topple two incompetent governments is a bad indictment on his leadership.
Are you arguing that Labour didn't go further backwards from 2005 under JC? I'm not Blair's biggest fan, but even after Iraq he won a majority similar to the size of Johnson's now. | |
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| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 12:59 - Apr 12 with 1286 views | giant_stow |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 11:34 - Apr 12 by Bluesquid |
Well, well, well, would you Adam and Eve it?
"An extensive internal investigation into the way Labour handled antisemitism complaints will not be submitted to the Equality and Human Rights Commission, after an intervention by party lawyers."
"The 860-page report, seen by Sky News, concluded factional hostility towards Jeremy Corbyn amongst former senior officials contributed to "a litany of mistakes" that hindered the effective handling of the issue."
"The investigation, which was completed in the last month of Jeremy Corbyn's leadership, claims to have found "no evidence" of antisemitism complaints being treated differently to other forms of complaint, or of current or former staff being "motivated by antisemitic intent"."
"As well as 10,000 separate emails, the dossier uncovers thousands of private WhatsApp communications between former senior party officials and singles out for criticism some who gave whistleblower evidence to last year's highly-critical BBC Panorama investigation on antisemitism within Labour."
"Indeed the report directly addresses the EHRC on several occasions, including urging the watchdog to "question the validity of the personal testimonies" of former members of staff and to "focus instead on the documentary, primary-source evidence that the Party has made available", leaving little doubt as to the intention of its authors that the document be submitted to the investigation."
"The report claims private communications show senior former staff "openly worked against the aims and objectives of the leadership of the Party, and in the 2017 general election some key staff even appeared to work against the Party's core objective of winning elections"."
https://news.sky.com/story/labour-antisemitism-investigation-will-not-be-sent-to |
Do we know who write the report or why it wasnt submitted to the ehrc? |  |
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| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 13:02 - Apr 12 with 1271 views | giant_stow |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 12:46 - Apr 12 by Darth_Koont |
But seats can be more or less random and dependent on other factors, not least the MP candidates or how close the race is.
The global vote share is at least measurable. And the idea that Corbyn took Labour backwards after 2005, 2010 and 2015 is laughable. Focusing on policy rather than empty centrist party politics brought Labour into the 21st Century.
Starmer at least seems to be suggesting that this policy platform should stay if Labour are to remain relevant. |
'the idea that Corbyn took Labour backwards after 2005, 2010 and 2015 is laughable'
Is this political humour?! Very good! | |
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| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 13:49 - Apr 12 with 1231 views | tractordownsouth |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 13:02 - Apr 12 by giant_stow |
'the idea that Corbyn took Labour backwards after 2005, 2010 and 2015 is laughable'
Is this political humour?! Very good! |
This was a really interesting listen with contributions from many Labour Party figures.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000h0gr
The most interesting contribution was from Gloria De Piero, former Labour MP for Ashfield. She said that too many treated 2017 as a victory, when we were still 56 seats short of the Tories after their worst ever campaign. Importantly, she pointed out that even though the Labour vote increased in the 'red wall' seats, there was still a big swing to the Tories and we didn't notice it enough.
Being the politics nerd I am, I've spent a bit of time looking at the constituency results...
For example, in Ashfield her 2015 majority was a fairly comfortable 8,800, and it fell to 441 in 2017, as the Tory vote doubled from 10,000 to 20,000. Then, in 2019, Labour ended up in 3rd place, 7,200 behind the Tories and even behind a local independent candidate. This was a seat that had been Labour since the 1950s (barring a brief by election defeat in the 1970s)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashfield_(UK_Parliament_constituency)
Another example is Redcar, where Labour won by 10,000 votes ahead of the Lib Dems, and the Tories down in 4th. In 2017, the majority was still a fairly comfortable 9,000 but the Tories jumped into second and more than doubled their vote. They then took the seat last year on a 15% swing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redcar_(UK_Parliament_constituency)
Of course both seats had a sizeable UKIP vote in 2015, and in many ways I think that acted as a sort of gateway drug for some ex-Labour voters turning blue in 2017 and 2019. In the interests of fairness, I think Miliband has to take a small portion of the blame, but the loss of the 'red wall' is definitely down to Corbyn, no matter how much some may try and spin it. The fact that many of these people have now voted Tory twice in a row will make it much more difficult for us to win them back. It's a challenge, but I think Starmer is far more equipped to do so than his predecessor. Most people won't give a monkeys about his Brexit stance, what people are crying out for is competence.
[Post edited 12 Apr 2020 13:52]
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| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 13:57 - Apr 12 with 1222 views | Darth_Koont |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 12:54 - Apr 12 by tractordownsouth |
Had he resigned after 2017 I'd have a much more favourable opinion on him... he'd have left us with a platform to win the next general election, and he did generate a lot of enthusiasm for Labour during the campaign.
However, the fact he stayed on and presided over the worst post war defeat, as well as the AS stuff (which mostly came post 2017) means he will be deemed as the biggest failure since Michael Foot. The fact he couldn't topple two incompetent governments is a bad indictment on his leadership.
Are you arguing that Labour didn't go further backwards from 2005 under JC? I'm not Blair's biggest fan, but even after Iraq he won a majority similar to the size of Johnson's now. |
Of course Labour went backwards. It totally lost Scotland because it wasn't addressing real concerns but playing a party political game at that stage.
Labour became irrelevant in real terms when it stopped addressing the disillusioned and disenfranchised in favour of meaningless party politicking. And they totally paved the way for the wolf in sheep's clothing that was Cameron with the Tory right always ready to start pulling the strings.
When politics stops representing people and ideas (especially on the left) then it's not just a waste of time. It's actually doing long-term harm. | |
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| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 14:00 - Apr 12 with 1217 views | Darth_Koont |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 13:02 - Apr 12 by giant_stow |
'the idea that Corbyn took Labour backwards after 2005, 2010 and 2015 is laughable'
Is this political humour?! Very good! |
TBF you're a sucker for meaningless politics, ullaa. | |
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| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 14:41 - Apr 12 with 1179 views | midastouch |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 12:40 - Apr 12 by tractordownsouth |
How many times does it need to be said? Vote share means diddly squat without the seats...
This is the only stat that matters
Blair: 418, 413 and 356 seats
Corbyn: 262 and 202 seats |
With the folly of first past the post you are always going to get some incredibly strange inconsistencies from election to election. Our electoral system is in terrible need of reform. We can't call it a true democracy when 5 million votes can equate to just 2 seats in Parliament. That is just a rotten broken system in my humble opinion.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/may/09/margate-ukip-greens-electoral-r
I also replied to reusersfreekicks to acknowledge I recognise the danger of using statistics in arguments such as this. In short, if the statistics don't represent the echo chamber environment they are used within, then they are almost certain to be sneered at.
What invariably happens in tribal political discussion is the more any of us trumpet our own beliefs and persuasions, (and try and bring others around to something similar) conversely the more we tend to turn off those we are arguing with. And so we just become even more entrenched in our views with nobody wanting to budge an inch! That's about the size of it. So essentially we can all argue until the cows come home but I imagine by 11.59pm tonight we will all probably be exactly where we started at 00.01am this morning! But hey, during lockdown I guess we can all afford to be this unproductive with our time!
All joking aside, when was the last time you saw somebody on this forum have a dig at somebody else about something political and the person that was called out on whatever it was replied with something like, "oh yeah, I never looked at it like that, having thought about it I actually agree more now with your viewpoint than my original view"? I'm still waiting patiently on that one to happen!
Please be as kind to let me know when that next happens as I've love to see it with my own two eyes but I've got a strong feeling it's not going to happen before I fall to sleep tonight. In fact I'm not sure it's even going to happen before the end of this lockdown. Happy days! :-) [Post edited 12 Apr 2020 15:11]
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| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 18:48 - Apr 12 with 1092 views | GlasgowBlue |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 12:50 - Apr 12 by Darth_Koont |
This was talked about as early as the beginning of 2019. The process was being sabotaged from within by those who were then given the platform of a one-eyed Panorama documentary to pretend that they were doing their utmost to expedite complaints.
As I said, the fact that so many politicians and the media went along with it uncritically or even amplified the smears is a stain on our democracy. |
This is awkward.
So just to clarify, which report is it that you are supporting? The one from the JLM that was submitted to the EHRC, which slams widespread antisemitism in the Labour party including the actions of Chris Williamson who you continually backed? Or the leaked report that Bluesquid has linked which Labour's Lawyers belived was too incriminating as it slams widespread antisemitism in the Labour party including the actions of Chris Williamson who you continually backed? | |
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| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 19:07 - Apr 12 with 1077 views | Darth_Koont |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 18:48 - Apr 12 by GlasgowBlue |
This is awkward.
So just to clarify, which report is it that you are supporting? The one from the JLM that was submitted to the EHRC, which slams widespread antisemitism in the Labour party including the actions of Chris Williamson who you continually backed? Or the leaked report that Bluesquid has linked which Labour's Lawyers belived was too incriminating as it slams widespread antisemitism in the Labour party including the actions of Chris Williamson who you continually backed? |
I think you need to read it first. But it's sounding like this again:
https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexwickham/leaked-emails-reveal-labours-compliance-uni
The whistleblowers turn out to be smoke-blowers. Who'd have guessed? Well, apart from anyone who bothered to look at the facts. And these people were all over the Panorama "documentary".
I think my list of "untrustworthies" is turning out pretty well. | |
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| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 19:18 - Apr 12 with 1062 views | tractordownsouth |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 18:48 - Apr 12 by GlasgowBlue |
This is awkward.
So just to clarify, which report is it that you are supporting? The one from the JLM that was submitted to the EHRC, which slams widespread antisemitism in the Labour party including the actions of Chris Williamson who you continually backed? Or the leaked report that Bluesquid has linked which Labour's Lawyers belived was too incriminating as it slams widespread antisemitism in the Labour party including the actions of Chris Williamson who you continually backed? |
I think that the fact Chris Williamson is backed by George Galloway tells you everything you need to know about the moron | |
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| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 19:21 - Apr 12 with 1059 views | Darth_Koont |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 19:07 - Apr 12 by Darth_Koont |
I think you need to read it first. But it's sounding like this again:
https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexwickham/leaked-emails-reveal-labours-compliance-uni
The whistleblowers turn out to be smoke-blowers. Who'd have guessed? Well, apart from anyone who bothered to look at the facts. And these people were all over the Panorama "documentary".
I think my list of "untrustworthies" is turning out pretty well. |
Thanks for the downvote, Lowers. Always gives me the confirmation I need.
The problem when you play fast and loose with the facts for short-term gain is that these facts always come back to bite you in the @rse.
Are you starting to realise that or is this where you try to double down? | |
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| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 19:23 - Apr 12 with 1055 views | Darth_Koont |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 19:18 - Apr 12 by tractordownsouth |
I think that the fact Chris Williamson is backed by George Galloway tells you everything you need to know about the moron |
You're being a bit silly.
Don't lose yourself to the factionalism. Find the objective facts and stick to them. | |
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| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 19:26 - Apr 12 with 1043 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 19:23 - Apr 12 by Darth_Koont |
You're being a bit silly.
Don't lose yourself to the factionalism. Find the objective facts and stick to them. |
I think the word should be "fictionalism" rather than 'factionalism".... | |
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