| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party 21:07 - Apr 11 with 8979 views | Enigma_Blue |
Has appointed Naz Shah as Shadow Minister for Community Cohesion. The same Naz Shah who was stripped of the parliamentary whip and suspended for 3 months for posting antisemitic comments on FB and Tweets.
I hope this isn't going to be a sign of things to come from Starmer. |  | | |  |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 12:02 - Apr 13 with 1171 views | tractordownsouth |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 11:54 - Apr 13 by Darth_Koont |
Not sure that stacks up to be honest. Swinson and the LibDems spent more time attacking the Labour Party than the Tories and were clearly trying to expand their electoral niche.
Why don't centrist people just vote LibDems rather than trying to change the Labour Party? I know they're forced into it somewhat by the FPTP system and there only being space for two main parties but it's this lack of principle (and taking away the ability to provide a genuine alternative) that makes it all a meaningless game. |
There's space for centrists in both the Labour and Lib Dems, but I do agree that a Labour/Lib Dem pact was never on the cards with Swinson. WIth Layla Moran likely to be the leader, I reckon it's possible, espeically with Starmer in there. |  |
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| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 12:05 - Apr 13 with 1160 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 12:01 - Apr 13 by itfcjoe |
Without PR you are forced into voting for the best option |
I believe that if PR was used for General Elections, we'd see a progressive centre-left coalition government being formed in most instances.. |  |
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| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 12:06 - Apr 13 with 1152 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 11:54 - Apr 13 by Darth_Koont |
Not sure that stacks up to be honest. Swinson and the LibDems spent more time attacking the Labour Party than the Tories and were clearly trying to expand their electoral niche.
Why don't centrist people just vote LibDems rather than trying to change the Labour Party? I know they're forced into it somewhat by the FPTP system and there only being space for two main parties but it's this lack of principle (and taking away the ability to provide a genuine alternative) that makes it all a meaningless game. |
For the same reason that those that want an ideological pipe dream don’t start their own party and instead insist on making the only possible governing alternative to the Conservatives unelectable |  |
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| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 12:20 - Apr 13 with 1139 views | Darth_Koont |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 12:01 - Apr 13 by itfcjoe |
Without PR you are forced into voting for the best option |
Indeed. And you can decide the best option objectively by addressing what is needed in the country and which policies are most needed. Certainly by steering clear of meaningless party politics that does everything it can to not upset the status quo.
That's the conundrum of the centre ... there you have to pretend to be different or just Not-The-Tories rather than have an active alternative. Laughably, throughout all this, we've had the Establishment and people who don't want to change much at all deciding what is and what isn't effective opposition.
And all at the same time we've had half of the Labour Party HQ and leftish media commentators trying to win a pointless factional battle and sabotaging it from within when Labour were actually gaining support and momentum in 2017.
We deserve far better from at least ONE of our two main political parties in a representative democracy. And certainly from the party that on paper stands for representing people rather than interests. |  |
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| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 12:25 - Apr 13 with 1130 views | Darth_Koont |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 12:06 - Apr 13 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
For the same reason that those that want an ideological pipe dream don’t start their own party and instead insist on making the only possible governing alternative to the Conservatives unelectable |
"An ideological pipe dream"!!?? This is bog-standard European social democracy.
The dreamers are the ones perpetuating a fake narrative around what is sensible government and effective opposition.
I've been banging on for years (and way before Corbyn) about how awful and empty our politics and media is but I'm still stunned by how accepting people are of it all. | |
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| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 12:37 - Apr 13 with 1109 views | Darth_Koont |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 12:02 - Apr 13 by tractordownsouth |
There's space for centrists in both the Labour and Lib Dems, but I do agree that a Labour/Lib Dem pact was never on the cards with Swinson. WIth Layla Moran likely to be the leader, I reckon it's possible, espeically with Starmer in there. |
Maybe. A pact would certainly make sense so they can both retain their differences rather than fighting each other and just cancelling each other out.
The only problem is that without PR a pact will take the level of commitment and honesty that is in short supply in British politics. As you say, Starmer and Moran are a good start as leaders so who knows? | |
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| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 12:37 - Apr 13 with 1108 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 12:25 - Apr 13 by Darth_Koont |
"An ideological pipe dream"!!?? This is bog-standard European social democracy.
The dreamers are the ones perpetuating a fake narrative around what is sensible government and effective opposition.
I've been banging on for years (and way before Corbyn) about how awful and empty our politics and media is but I'm still stunned by how accepting people are of it all. |
Yes, Europe is rife with nations that have 4 day working weeks, free broadband and are undertaking nationalisation on a mass scale | |
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| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 12:47 - Apr 13 with 1092 views | Darth_Koont |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 12:37 - Apr 13 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
Yes, Europe is rife with nations that have 4 day working weeks, free broadband and are undertaking nationalisation on a mass scale |
The first two are where advanced countries are heading with AI and automation, not to mention an increasing focus on well-being. I'd be interested to know why you think that's not going to happen.
As for renationalisation, that's a bit more local to the UK based on our poor record with privatised utilities and services.
This is weak stuff. But a sign of how isolated and politically illiterate we have become in the years since the great post-war social reforms. | |
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| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 12:51 - Apr 13 with 1082 views | tractordownsouth |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 12:37 - Apr 13 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
Yes, Europe is rife with nations that have 4 day working weeks, free broadband and are undertaking nationalisation on a mass scale |
I didn't support the widespread nationalisation (although I think rail and water should be publically owned) or the broadband, but the 4 day working week is a good idea and actually raises productivity. I do think it was a mistake for Labour to include it in the manifesto though, along with other substantial changes, because as a nation, we don't tend to react to change very well. And with Brexit on the horizon, I don't think now is the time for it. | |
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| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 12:54 - Apr 13 with 1066 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 12:47 - Apr 13 by Darth_Koont |
The first two are where advanced countries are heading with AI and automation, not to mention an increasing focus on well-being. I'd be interested to know why you think that's not going to happen.
As for renationalisation, that's a bit more local to the UK based on our poor record with privatised utilities and services.
This is weak stuff. But a sign of how isolated and politically illiterate we have become in the years since the great post-war social reforms. |
Things may head that way in the future, but that wasn’t the point being debated. You suggested the Labour manifesto was in line with other European countries - I just highlighted some prominent policies which most certainly are not
And that’s before you get into the wider point of the manifesto promising such a large programme of significant change across the board from what we have now - the size of which hasn’t been seen by any developed nation in history
But other than all of that it was exactly like the rest of Europe  | |
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| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 13:21 - Apr 13 with 1023 views | GlasgowBlue |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 11:54 - Apr 13 by Darth_Koont |
Not sure that stacks up to be honest. Swinson and the LibDems spent more time attacking the Labour Party than the Tories and were clearly trying to expand their electoral niche.
Why don't centrist people just vote LibDems rather than trying to change the Labour Party? I know they're forced into it somewhat by the FPTP system and there only being space for two main parties but it's this lack of principle (and taking away the ability to provide a genuine alternative) that makes it all a meaningless game. |
That first paragraph is a bit rich. As soon as Swinson was elected as leader of the Lib Dems Labour launched an attack campaign against her.
They went so hard on her that I had to check to see if she was Jewish. |  |
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| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 13:32 - Apr 13 with 1005 views | tractordownsouth |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 13:21 - Apr 13 by GlasgowBlue |
That first paragraph is a bit rich. As soon as Swinson was elected as leader of the Lib Dems Labour launched an attack campaign against her.
They went so hard on her that I had to check to see if she was Jewish. |
Swinson and Corbyn were both poor leaders and generally disliked by the public; it's also a shame that two leaders that were so ideologically opposed became leaders of the centre left parties at the same time, which meant no chance of any sort of alliance. Johnson was like a pig in sh1t. | |
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| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 13:37 - Apr 13 with 988 views | Darth_Koont |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 13:21 - Apr 13 by GlasgowBlue |
That first paragraph is a bit rich. As soon as Swinson was elected as leader of the Lib Dems Labour launched an attack campaign against her.
They went so hard on her that I had to check to see if she was Jewish. |
Haha.
Keep smearing while you can. | |
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| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 13:59 - Apr 13 with 969 views | giant_stow |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 13:32 - Apr 13 by tractordownsouth |
Swinson and Corbyn were both poor leaders and generally disliked by the public; it's also a shame that two leaders that were so ideologically opposed became leaders of the centre left parties at the same time, which meant no chance of any sort of alliance. Johnson was like a pig in sh1t. |
Swinson already just seems like a bad dream - what a failure. |  |
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| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 14:05 - Apr 13 with 957 views | tractordownsouth |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 13:59 - Apr 13 by giant_stow |
Swinson already just seems like a bad dream - what a failure. |
I really wish TIm Farron didn't have the gay marriage scandal, as I thought he was a brilliant leader. And in fairness to him, despite his conflicting views, he always voted for gay rights in parliament. | |
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| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 14:05 - Apr 13 with 953 views | Darth_Koont |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 13:59 - Apr 13 by giant_stow |
Swinson already just seems like a bad dream - what a failure. |
Yeah, I mean who would have seen that coming?
Add in the Labour right-wingers, and the Change and Independent Group nonsense, and the centre has done it's usual job of getting in the way of the real stuff and propping up the status quo. | |
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| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 14:24 - Apr 13 with 935 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 13:01 - Apr 13 by Darth_Koont |
I don't think you understand how far certain large sections of our population are slipping behind compared to many other countries in Europe. Or how divided and detached the regions are so that the UK itself might break up.
But yeah let's not change that or at least let's not change it enough to make a difference ... 4 million kids in poverty? Let's just do a party political rebadging exercise to make ourselves feel better.
Edit: And it was moving to a 4-day working week over 10 years. If you don't think that's the way things are heading or that other progressive countries aren't thinking the same way then I'd like to hear why. [Post edited 13 Apr 2020 13:05]
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But Corbyn’s Labour being soundly beaten at the ballot box does nothing to change that
Whereas by actually winning elections, New Labour was able to bring in things like the minimum wage, increase spending on the NHS, cut long term unemployment and countless other measures which helped those people you highlight
As for the 4 day working week you’re speculating on what may or may not happen, with it very much being a topic of debate. The point remains that Labours proposal is not in line with what the rest of Europe actually does currently | |
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| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 14:25 - Apr 13 with 937 views | sparks |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 14:05 - Apr 13 by tractordownsouth |
I really wish TIm Farron didn't have the gay marriage scandal, as I thought he was a brilliant leader. And in fairness to him, despite his conflicting views, he always voted for gay rights in parliament. |
I dont think he was brilliant at all. I wouldnt recognise him even now- he was just far too bland and unnoticeable. |  |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 14:25 - Apr 13 with 934 views | GlasgowBlue |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 14:05 - Apr 13 by Darth_Koont |
Yeah, I mean who would have seen that coming?
Add in the Labour right-wingers, and the Change and Independent Group nonsense, and the centre has done it's usual job of getting in the way of the real stuff and propping up the status quo. |
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| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 14:37 - Apr 13 with 911 views | Darth_Koont |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 14:24 - Apr 13 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
But Corbyn’s Labour being soundly beaten at the ballot box does nothing to change that
Whereas by actually winning elections, New Labour was able to bring in things like the minimum wage, increase spending on the NHS, cut long term unemployment and countless other measures which helped those people you highlight
As for the 4 day working week you’re speculating on what may or may not happen, with it very much being a topic of debate. The point remains that Labours proposal is not in line with what the rest of Europe actually does currently |
I've done this many times before.
Yes, New Labour was better than the Tories. But they helped push us and political debate further to the right because of how Blair and his team became enthralled in the free-market and imperialism, while at the same time not selling in enough the need to invest in society. When you miss the point over structural inequalities over a 13-year period in government for then there's a debate whether you've actually caused more harm than good over the long term.
And that's people's view of a successful "left with a lot of right" government ... but, in any sober analysis, they needed to do more and stand for more to better represent all the UK's citizens. | |
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| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 14:47 - Apr 13 with 903 views | Darth_Koont |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 14:25 - Apr 13 by GlasgowBlue |
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Stop being a mouthpiece for such spurious and inane nonsense.
It would be far more accurate to say that when you bring up Jewishness at every moment however irrelevant to the discussion that you're playing fast and loose with real antisemitism and don't care enough about it.
Bit like the Labour right and the JLM who ignored and screwed up antisemitism investigations for their own ends.
See, I can weaponise stuff too. | |
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| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 16:20 - Apr 13 with 845 views | Clapham_Junction |
| So Kier Starmer who vowed to stamp out Anti-Semitism in the Labour party on 13:32 - Apr 13 by tractordownsouth |
Swinson and Corbyn were both poor leaders and generally disliked by the public; it's also a shame that two leaders that were so ideologically opposed became leaders of the centre left parties at the same time, which meant no chance of any sort of alliance. Johnson was like a pig in sh1t. |
Oh for Charles Kennedy. If he'd still been Lib Dem leader in 2010 I think the last 10 years would have panned out very differently... :( |  | | |
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