| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... 08:35 - May 1 with 3848 views | hampstead_blue |
stuck in the middle chewing on a crappy sandwich.
Can we please have some sense in the world!
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| Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me.
Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing.
Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial.
Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid.
Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
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| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 12:51 - May 1 with 716 views | Darth_Koont |
| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 12:43 - May 1 by WeWereZombies |
Not really, there have been plenty of administrations, especially in Latin America, which have been regarded as left-wing (Cuba since Castro took control, Nicaragua Venezuela under Maduro, Nicaragua under the last of Ortega's terms) but which have had repressive tactics when it comes to opposition to their regime (the argument usually being that the old order has a highly manipulative hand in the economy and other facets of the nations power so it is fair to fight fire with fire).
When do you label a regime that was regarded as left-wing as having now become right wing? I think most would accept that the ascent of Stalin was a significant moment in viewing the USSR as having become totalitarian but other commentators, most notably the venerable philosopher and framer of the types of freedom Isaiah Berlin, cite instances during and immediately after the October Revolution as indicators a lurch toward a repressive regime had occurred. |
I think when your driver for change (liberty or equality) is achieved the danger is that the political system takes over and becomes the new driver. That turns free-thinking socialist revolutionaries into totalitarians and justice-seeking liberals into authoritarians.
Those are the extreme forms clearly but, even in our own parliamentary democracy, we should always be wary of people and parties who see politics as the end in itself rather than the end being the successful implementation of their ideas to bring about a fairer and more balanced society. |  |
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| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 12:54 - May 1 with 711 views | giant_stow |
| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 12:47 - May 1 by Clapham_Junction |
I think the people who use 'centrist' as an insult are pissed off that over the last decade or so many people who consider themselves centrists have helped enable a succession of increasingly appalling Conservative governments, often by being unwilling to support Labour (who in most places are the only real option to defeat the Tories).
The concept of false balance has often been discussed on here with regards to things like the BBC allowing climate change deniers an equal platform with the majority scientific view. I think this could equally be applied in many political situations now, which means that people who insist on taking the 'middle road' view end up in a position where they are half-agreeing with something that's patently bullsh!t. |
'centrists' wasn't even a word in use until a year or so ago, when it was invented purely as a slur. Now middle-of-the-road people have been tricked into self-identifying as such. All a bit grim. |  |
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| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 12:54 - May 1 with 711 views | WeWereZombies |
| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 12:34 - May 1 by Darth_Koont |
I think Left and Right work in general terms but it's the underlying and competing ideas of Equality and Liberty that need to be focused on more.
Some have a blind reaction to the words Left or Right but thinking about them in their truest meanings would make agreement and balanced policies that much easier for people to accept. I've never heard of people argue against equality or against liberty unless they've been total nutters, just like those who promote one to the exclusion of everything else.
These are the people and politicians we need worry about and consider the extreme and unhelpful sides of the debate. We certainly shouldn't be voting for them. |
Even in the case of liberty there are types of freedom that the left favour, generally the freedom not to have things done to one types. And there are types favoured by the right, generally the free to do what one pleases types.
Equality is not straightforward either, on the left you have an equal share for all versus each according to their needs arguments whereas the right will want equal access to resources so that they can utilise them according to their talents (which will produce considerable inequality between the wealth of individuals although it can also provide more wealth for a community than would be created under a tightly controlled allocation system). |  |
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| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 12:58 - May 1 with 697 views | Libero |
| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 12:47 - May 1 by Clapham_Junction |
I think the people who use 'centrist' as an insult are pissed off that over the last decade or so many people who consider themselves centrists have helped enable a succession of increasingly appalling Conservative governments, often by being unwilling to support Labour (who in most places are the only real option to defeat the Tories).
The concept of false balance has often been discussed on here with regards to things like the BBC allowing climate change deniers an equal platform with the majority scientific view. I think this could equally be applied in many political situations now, which means that people who insist on taking the 'middle road' view end up in a position where they are half-agreeing with something that's patently bullsh!t. |
Maybe, it just doesn't really justify shouting down someone who's just being sensible.
Personally I think the polarised nature of discussion and the way in which people take stances and defend them to their death is really unhealthy and doesn't encourage any kind of progression. So many 'conversations' aren't really conversations, they're just people regurgitating their bit getting more and more aggressive/rude/extreme.
It's possible to be in support of a rhetoric/system of belief/values but to academically understand the potential pitfalls/hypocrisies/difficulties in implementing it.
There's a difference between this and the kind of fence sitting you're talking about in my opinion. |  | | |
| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 12:58 - May 1 with 697 views | Darth_Koont |
| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 12:47 - May 1 by Clapham_Junction |
I think the people who use 'centrist' as an insult are pissed off that over the last decade or so many people who consider themselves centrists have helped enable a succession of increasingly appalling Conservative governments, often by being unwilling to support Labour (who in most places are the only real option to defeat the Tories).
The concept of false balance has often been discussed on here with regards to things like the BBC allowing climate change deniers an equal platform with the majority scientific view. I think this could equally be applied in many political situations now, which means that people who insist on taking the 'middle road' view end up in a position where they are half-agreeing with something that's patently bullsh!t. |
Well said. And an excellent point re: the false balance problem. The centre in politics needs to make its own case stronger, put across its underlying ideas and also defend its record.
Just trying to chip away electorally, saying we're not THEM and we're certainly not THEM doesn't cut it, except in their own cosy bubble. They become much like the professional pundits and commentators who invariably endorse them. | |
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| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 13:07 - May 1 with 682 views | Darth_Koont |
| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 12:54 - May 1 by WeWereZombies |
Even in the case of liberty there are types of freedom that the left favour, generally the freedom not to have things done to one types. And there are types favoured by the right, generally the free to do what one pleases types.
Equality is not straightforward either, on the left you have an equal share for all versus each according to their needs arguments whereas the right will want equal access to resources so that they can utilise them according to their talents (which will produce considerable inequality between the wealth of individuals although it can also provide more wealth for a community than would be created under a tightly controlled allocation system). |
Agreed although I'd say the "freedom to not have things done to you" is in essence equality.
And "equality of opportunity" is liberty by another name - given how much easier it is for opportunities to be hoovered up by people who need them less but can afford to take their pick. I think that single misunderstanding is what's most behind the dramatic rise in wealth inequality over the past few decades. It's a very American idea that everyone's free to live the dream but statistically that just can't happen for a majority and especially those in already more socially disadvantaged groups.
The key is a balance where neither liberty or equality get too much of an upper hand and for too long. | |
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| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 13:15 - May 1 with 660 views | Darth_Koont |
| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 12:54 - May 1 by giant_stow |
'centrists' wasn't even a word in use until a year or so ago, when it was invented purely as a slur. Now middle-of-the-road people have been tricked into self-identifying as such. All a bit grim. |
I think a lot of supposedly middle-of-the-road people have enabled or been tricked into enabling the government of the last 10 years and the next 5.
By any practical measure, middle of the road is centre-right in the UK and had all but rejected mainstream European social democracy as an option. The problem is that we like our liberty a lot more than we like resolving inequality. | |
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| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 13:17 - May 1 with 654 views | WeWereZombies |
| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 12:54 - May 1 by giant_stow |
'centrists' wasn't even a word in use until a year or so ago, when it was invented purely as a slur. Now middle-of-the-road people have been tricked into self-identifying as such. All a bit grim. |
That is an over-simplification, and also not true with regard to the use of the word. Centrist parties have existed for centuries:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centrism | |
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| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 13:20 - May 1 with 645 views | leitrimblue |
| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 12:43 - May 1 by Pinewoodblue |
That would make it a gala pie. |
Well I'd like to request a minimum of 2 large slices of the best gala pie then |  | | |
| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 13:23 - May 1 with 640 views | giant_stow |
| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 13:15 - May 1 by Darth_Koont |
I think a lot of supposedly middle-of-the-road people have enabled or been tricked into enabling the government of the last 10 years and the next 5.
By any practical measure, middle of the road is centre-right in the UK and had all but rejected mainstream European social democracy as an option. The problem is that we like our liberty a lot more than we like resolving inequality. |
Some truth in that, but personally I'd say the middle still looks like New Labour for most | |
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| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 13:24 - May 1 with 634 views | Libero |
| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 13:15 - May 1 by Darth_Koont |
I think a lot of supposedly middle-of-the-road people have enabled or been tricked into enabling the government of the last 10 years and the next 5.
By any practical measure, middle of the road is centre-right in the UK and had all but rejected mainstream European social democracy as an option. The problem is that we like our liberty a lot more than we like resolving inequality. |
I absolutely agree with everything you're saying but I'm not sure it's too relevant to the context in which I brought it to the conversation?
I've plenty of friends who like myself hold socialist values who have been accused of being centrists in a derogatory manner purely because we had the audacity to consider alternatives as well as their own intrinsic bias.
It's developing from what you describe in your second paragraph to almost as cheap, easy and meaningless a put down as "millennial" "boomer" etc.
Just seems a bit lazy and shallow. | | | |
| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 13:24 - May 1 with 631 views | giant_stow |
| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 13:17 - May 1 by WeWereZombies |
That is an over-simplification, and also not true with regard to the use of the word. Centrist parties have existed for centuries:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centrism |
I stand corrected on the history, but no doubt the word has come masisvely in to vogue in recent years and has almost always been used a slur. | |
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| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 13:27 - May 1 with 622 views | Libero |
| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 13:23 - May 1 by giant_stow |
Some truth in that, but personally I'd say the middle still looks like New Labour for most |
Aye, I think you're right, which is why I understand DK's points as most equate "the third way" more with Conservatism than Labour despite it being implemented in the UK by New Labour. [Post edited 1 May 2020 13:29]
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| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 13:32 - May 1 with 611 views | Darth_Koont |
| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 13:23 - May 1 by giant_stow |
Some truth in that, but personally I'd say the middle still looks like New Labour for most |
Which, given electoral cycles, isn't an effective opposition in itself to a continuing slide to the right and increasing these inequalities.
Far too much of New Labour (the neoliberal free-market fetish, the resistance to sensible tax rises because they were surfing a global upswing and money was coming in, and Blair's own imperialist failings) pretty much cemented these tendencies when they needed changing.
Coronavirus and climate change are forcing us to re-evaluate these things. Shame that a commitment to equality and redressing structural imbalances hasn't been tolerated on the political agenda up to now. | |
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| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 13:37 - May 1 with 598 views | Guthrum |
| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 12:21 - May 1 by WeWereZombies |
Does language work like that? I vaguely remember this reference to French post-revolutionary politics (you have probably posted it before) but I would argue that it is what attaches to the terms over time that counts. SO most have a general conception of 'left' as being socialist, likely to favour workers (especially those in trade unions) and open to new social norms. 'Right' to favour traditional values, resistant to a change in the social order and giving encouragement to the individual as a wealth creator (who can then distribute philanthropically if they so wish).
The terms may undergo challenges and permutations (the right wing agenda of New Labour, one nation Tories being considered on the left of that party) but are useful as a quick reference to determine the standing of people and organisations for those who do not have the time, inclination or education to examine the detail. |
I would say there's a risk with archaic terms of promoting concepts which are no longer strictly accurate. Or, worse, forcing people and governments into pigeonholes.
A lot of governments draw from more than one tradition, anyway, e.g. Cameron's economically rightist lot also promoted lefty policies like gay marriage.
There is also the risk that labels which carry no inherent meaning will just become ciphers translating as "someone I disagree with". |  |
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| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 13:39 - May 1 with 594 views | Darth_Koont |
| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 13:24 - May 1 by Libero |
I absolutely agree with everything you're saying but I'm not sure it's too relevant to the context in which I brought it to the conversation?
I've plenty of friends who like myself hold socialist values who have been accused of being centrists in a derogatory manner purely because we had the audacity to consider alternatives as well as their own intrinsic bias.
It's developing from what you describe in your second paragraph to almost as cheap, easy and meaningless a put down as "millennial" "boomer" etc.
Just seems a bit lazy and shallow. |
Sure, but we've had decades of people calling socialism evil, pretty much unchallenged and increasingly from the centre-right too as they slide rightwards.
The centre has been pretty sh!t and the definition of ineffective opposition for too long. I agree it shouldn't be but then centrists need to be much more critical of those who speak for them in politics and the media.
And start by asking them what sort of society do they want and who are they standing for - in recent years they've done a great job of standing up for themselves and their own party political power that has helped usher in increasingly incompetent and loony Tory governments. [Post edited 1 May 2020 13:42]
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| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 13:44 - May 1 with 577 views | Libero |
| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 13:39 - May 1 by Darth_Koont |
Sure, but we've had decades of people calling socialism evil, pretty much unchallenged and increasingly from the centre-right too as they slide rightwards.
The centre has been pretty sh!t and the definition of ineffective opposition for too long. I agree it shouldn't be but then centrists need to be much more critical of those who speak for them in politics and the media.
And start by asking them what sort of society do they want and who are they standing for - in recent years they've done a great job of standing up for themselves and their own party political power that has helped usher in increasingly incompetent and loony Tory governments. [Post edited 1 May 2020 13:42]
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Also true.
I find the way the linguistic combat has developed quite interesting.
I dunno if you're listening to Louis Theroux's new podcast but he was discussing with Jon Ronson how the extreme right realised that if someone reported your Twitter and you had said X word in the reported Tweet you would be instantly banned, this spurred a level of creativity in insult which would bypass the filter/bots.
I think this has happened on both sides of the political discussion, there are some frankly absurd terms that are used as insults currently that even 5/6 years ago people wouldn't have considered to be quite so offensive or derogatory. | | | |
| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 13:56 - May 1 with 566 views | WeWereZombies |
| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 13:07 - May 1 by Darth_Koont |
Agreed although I'd say the "freedom to not have things done to you" is in essence equality.
And "equality of opportunity" is liberty by another name - given how much easier it is for opportunities to be hoovered up by people who need them less but can afford to take their pick. I think that single misunderstanding is what's most behind the dramatic rise in wealth inequality over the past few decades. It's a very American idea that everyone's free to live the dream but statistically that just can't happen for a majority and especially those in already more socially disadvantaged groups.
The key is a balance where neither liberty or equality get too much of an upper hand and for too long. |
No, Darth, freedom not to have things done to you is a freedom from being interfered with and/or abused. It does not necessarily have a relationship with equal treatment, equal opportunity (which is more likely to be served by the freedom to do as I please model if resources are unlimited) or equal share of life's necessities.
Equality of opportunity, as I have alluded to above, depends on what resources are available, to whom they are readily available, what education is needed to take up the opportunities and how that opportunity is provided. In theory you could provide equality of opportunity in a political system that had no liberty whatsoever by allocating, for example, jobs on a daily basis to each individual so that everyone has a go. And has to have a go...
Things start to get a bit more complex when we go on to the definitions involved in three, four and six types of freedom but we have to have a clear idea of the differences between freedom and equality otherwise we get lost before we have started. | |
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| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 14:00 - May 1 with 564 views | Darth_Koont |
| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 13:44 - May 1 by Libero |
Also true.
I find the way the linguistic combat has developed quite interesting.
I dunno if you're listening to Louis Theroux's new podcast but he was discussing with Jon Ronson how the extreme right realised that if someone reported your Twitter and you had said X word in the reported Tweet you would be instantly banned, this spurred a level of creativity in insult which would bypass the filter/bots.
I think this has happened on both sides of the political discussion, there are some frankly absurd terms that are used as insults currently that even 5/6 years ago people wouldn't have considered to be quite so offensive or derogatory. |
Yes, social media is the worst and not helped by people being in an echo chamber of their own before venturing out and attacking others.
I think you can generally ignore anyone who routinely uses libtard, snowflake and feminazi etc. except ironically. Ditto those who throw out fascist, warmonger, fatcats etc. or hawk bizarre global conspiracy theories.
But that's not even the big problem with our political debate. These extremes are still nothing compared to the effect of the prevailing mainstream that leans pretty far to the right. A mainstream that blindly pushes its own narrow agenda or fails to provide objectivity. In that supposedly adult and responsible debate we've seen terms like traitor, terrorist, racist etc. bandied around in the same way as online trolls do but this time with the pretence of journalistic integrity and credibility. | |
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| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 14:03 - May 1 with 557 views | hampstead_blue |
| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 11:52 - May 1 by SpruceMoose |
Because Hampstead is a few sandwiches, some pork pies, some crisps, a thermos, a blanket, some Mr Kipling baked goods and a picnic basket short of a picnic? |
Been away and saw this...
It's not a left wing, right wing analogy......
More like to the left of us we have China and the right the USA and we are in the middle....
It's a thought on either way we look we see bad things. | |
| Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me.
Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing.
Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial.
Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid.
Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
| | Poll: | Best Blackpool goal |
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| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 14:07 - May 1 with 552 views | footers |
| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 14:03 - May 1 by hampstead_blue |
Been away and saw this...
It's not a left wing, right wing analogy......
More like to the left of us we have China and the right the USA and we are in the middle....
It's a thought on either way we look we see bad things. |
If you think China's a communist country, I got news for ya buddy. |  |
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| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 14:11 - May 1 with 544 views | giant_stow |
| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 14:03 - May 1 by hampstead_blue |
Been away and saw this...
It's not a left wing, right wing analogy......
More like to the left of us we have China and the right the USA and we are in the middle....
It's a thought on either way we look we see bad things. |
Shouldn;t have been China to the right, the yanks to the left (assuming we're looking at the map / facing north)? | |
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| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 14:20 - May 1 with 536 views | Libero |
| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 14:00 - May 1 by Darth_Koont |
Yes, social media is the worst and not helped by people being in an echo chamber of their own before venturing out and attacking others.
I think you can generally ignore anyone who routinely uses libtard, snowflake and feminazi etc. except ironically. Ditto those who throw out fascist, warmonger, fatcats etc. or hawk bizarre global conspiracy theories.
But that's not even the big problem with our political debate. These extremes are still nothing compared to the effect of the prevailing mainstream that leans pretty far to the right. A mainstream that blindly pushes its own narrow agenda or fails to provide objectivity. In that supposedly adult and responsible debate we've seen terms like traitor, terrorist, racist etc. bandied around in the same way as online trolls do but this time with the pretence of journalistic integrity and credibility. |
Ever since I watched Hypernormalisation I can't help but see clear and obvious examples of mainstream figures being purposefully confusing/disingenuous/trying to rewrite narratives in an overtly absurd manner to muddy things.
Prime example from recent weeks would be Trump's statement on bleach potentially curing Covid-19.
Step 1: Trump makes statement: Insinuates that ingesting or injecting bleach or treating areas directly with light might in some way be good for getting rid of Covid-19.
Step 2: Trump claims statement was a joke: I was being sarcastic, duh!
Step 3: Trump denies all contextual understanding of impact of original statement: I have no idea why people would be calling companies that make bleach asking if it cures Covid-19
I mean that's a simple one, it'd be about 30 steps if you wanted to do something similar regarding his stance on China.
Constant narrative shifting that never really lets us know what is "real" and what is "fake" [Post edited 1 May 2020 14:22]
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| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 14:26 - May 1 with 526 views | WeWereZombies |
| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 13:37 - May 1 by Guthrum |
I would say there's a risk with archaic terms of promoting concepts which are no longer strictly accurate. Or, worse, forcing people and governments into pigeonholes.
A lot of governments draw from more than one tradition, anyway, e.g. Cameron's economically rightist lot also promoted lefty policies like gay marriage.
There is also the risk that labels which carry no inherent meaning will just become ciphers translating as "someone I disagree with". |
Left and right (in the political sense, and certainly in the directional sense) are not archaic terms. They carry potency in both negative and positive use, many individuals identify with the terms too. And the identification is drawn from a broad range of concepts. So I think it is disingenuous to say Cameron was promoting lefty policies, he was chasing votes probably but he also had Cabinet colleagues like Alan Duncan who were directly affected and who he had to explain himself to if he held to more traditional views. Gay marriage and public enquiries always felt like the bells and whistles to give his administrations broad appeal (or to deflect attention) but the main and obvious thrust of his administrations was the policy of austerity.
Of course in recent years there has been this amusing trend for those without the energy to fully debate to try and dismiss opponents as lefties. It is a very useful term for the opponent as they should be able to quickly identify any number of fallacies that their interlocutor will attempt. In much the same way as the self righteous left wingers have been so easily shot down by the working class they claim to represent but appear to despise have been for a couple of decades now.
So I think left and right are still relevant and are a whole lot more useful than bringing in new terms predicated upon approaches to authoritarianism. That will confuse, add unnecessary layers and disrupt legitimate thought processes. You have to do the hard yards and work through problems. | |
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| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 14:28 - May 1 with 522 views | Darth_Koont |
| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 13:56 - May 1 by WeWereZombies |
No, Darth, freedom not to have things done to you is a freedom from being interfered with and/or abused. It does not necessarily have a relationship with equal treatment, equal opportunity (which is more likely to be served by the freedom to do as I please model if resources are unlimited) or equal share of life's necessities.
Equality of opportunity, as I have alluded to above, depends on what resources are available, to whom they are readily available, what education is needed to take up the opportunities and how that opportunity is provided. In theory you could provide equality of opportunity in a political system that had no liberty whatsoever by allocating, for example, jobs on a daily basis to each individual so that everyone has a go. And has to have a go...
Things start to get a bit more complex when we go on to the definitions involved in three, four and six types of freedom but we have to have a clear idea of the differences between freedom and equality otherwise we get lost before we have started. |
I think we generally agree but not perhaps about the specific definitions.
For me it's all about the overall balance. Which we already instinctively understand when we talk about liberty as we understand that we can't or shouldn't be free to do whatever we want if it harms others or their rights. Or that equality of outcome is an ambition e.g. disabled rights, education, health, child poverty etc. while understanding that people will always have it better or worse through a variety of other factors including dumb luck.
But we understand that as thinking beings. Like all truths it's childishly simple. We just need more of it in politics and less appealing to our more selfish fears and desires. A democracy should be about more people being able to have a better and healthier life. Not dividing us against each other and looking out for number one. That's where Fraternity comes in. | |
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