| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... 08:35 - May 1 with 3851 views | hampstead_blue |
stuck in the middle chewing on a crappy sandwich.
Can we please have some sense in the world!
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| Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me.
Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing.
Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial.
Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid.
Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
| | Poll: | Best Blackpool goal |
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| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 14:35 - May 1 with 882 views | Darth_Koont |
| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 14:20 - May 1 by Libero |
Ever since I watched Hypernormalisation I can't help but see clear and obvious examples of mainstream figures being purposefully confusing/disingenuous/trying to rewrite narratives in an overtly absurd manner to muddy things.
Prime example from recent weeks would be Trump's statement on bleach potentially curing Covid-19.
Step 1: Trump makes statement: Insinuates that ingesting or injecting bleach or treating areas directly with light might in some way be good for getting rid of Covid-19.
Step 2: Trump claims statement was a joke: I was being sarcastic, duh!
Step 3: Trump denies all contextual understanding of impact of original statement: I have no idea why people would be calling companies that make bleach asking if it cures Covid-19
I mean that's a simple one, it'd be about 30 steps if you wanted to do something similar regarding his stance on China.
Constant narrative shifting that never really lets us know what is "real" and what is "fake" [Post edited 1 May 2020 14:22]
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HyperNormalisation is great. Glad you've seen it.
The problem is that we're humans and we're fallible even to the point of not knowing when we're lying to ourselves. That's just how our brains work and we can be easily manipulated. Add in cheap and plentiful digital communication that can effectively present anything as real and we're screwed.
Unless we become much more sceptical and self-critical about what we're seeing and thinking. In other words we have to be much more scientific and evidence-based especially as the world's worst leaders, propagandists and false prophets are trying to push the other way. |  |
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| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 14:40 - May 1 with 868 views | Libero |
| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 14:35 - May 1 by Darth_Koont |
HyperNormalisation is great. Glad you've seen it.
The problem is that we're humans and we're fallible even to the point of not knowing when we're lying to ourselves. That's just how our brains work and we can be easily manipulated. Add in cheap and plentiful digital communication that can effectively present anything as real and we're screwed.
Unless we become much more sceptical and self-critical about what we're seeing and thinking. In other words we have to be much more scientific and evidence-based especially as the world's worst leaders, propagandists and false prophets are trying to push the other way. |
You're absolutely singing my song mate.
It's no coincidence that in various spheres a lot of what is being attacked is indisputable scientific fact. "Alternative facts" "post expert age" etc have all enabled people to be out and proud about still believing the world is flat, that 5G is the cause of corona virus and that global warming is a myth... |  | | |
| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 14:50 - May 1 with 859 views | WeWereZombies |
| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 14:28 - May 1 by Darth_Koont |
I think we generally agree but not perhaps about the specific definitions.
For me it's all about the overall balance. Which we already instinctively understand when we talk about liberty as we understand that we can't or shouldn't be free to do whatever we want if it harms others or their rights. Or that equality of outcome is an ambition e.g. disabled rights, education, health, child poverty etc. while understanding that people will always have it better or worse through a variety of other factors including dumb luck.
But we understand that as thinking beings. Like all truths it's childishly simple. We just need more of it in politics and less appealing to our more selfish fears and desires. A democracy should be about more people being able to have a better and healthier life. Not dividing us against each other and looking out for number one. That's where Fraternity comes in. |
OK, my post was not so fraternal. But it did have an element of precision. And when you tip toe into the blood sport that is political philosophy you need a very clear handle on the language that you use. Not to do so will at best see you treated dismissively but I have seen someone who was on 'In Our Time' giving a good account of themselves the previous week mercilessly reduced to a gibbering wreck by an Oxford don. And possibly deserving it, except that English (fluent though he was) was not his first language.
If it is any consolation, whilst I was typing out bravura paragraph after bravura paragraph admonishing you and Guthrum I did not pay enough attention to a saucepan I had on the hob and now I have managed to burn, yes burn, some runner beans. |  |
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| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 14:54 - May 1 with 854 views | Darth_Koont |
| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 14:40 - May 1 by Libero |
You're absolutely singing my song mate.
It's no coincidence that in various spheres a lot of what is being attacked is indisputable scientific fact. "Alternative facts" "post expert age" etc have all enabled people to be out and proud about still believing the world is flat, that 5G is the cause of corona virus and that global warming is a myth... |
The idea of "alternative facts" (uh, they're either facts or they're not) started off as amusing but it's got remarkably warped and dangerous since then.
What they've basically done is created anti-science and anti-progress, because science is already about challenging conclusions and discovering other facts. Certainly science can be challenged from the outside re: ethical and public good questions but scientists generally welcome and encourage that as part of their own debates.
But these "alternative" people have created ideas and content that's already far more unethical and dishonest in how it's used and abused to manipulate people. | |
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| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 14:59 - May 1 with 851 views | solemio |
Well done to the main protagonists (I mean contributors!) to this thread.
It really is of a much above average standard for TWTD. |  | | |
| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 15:04 - May 1 with 831 views | monytowbray |
| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 14:59 - May 1 by solemio |
Well done to the main protagonists (I mean contributors!) to this thread.
It really is of a much above average standard for TWTD. |
But I commented and it’s not a ten pager of bickering yet?!
Maybe I’m not the problem as a few posters not present here claim...
😇 |  |
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| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 15:07 - May 1 with 819 views | Darth_Koont |
| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 14:50 - May 1 by WeWereZombies |
OK, my post was not so fraternal. But it did have an element of precision. And when you tip toe into the blood sport that is political philosophy you need a very clear handle on the language that you use. Not to do so will at best see you treated dismissively but I have seen someone who was on 'In Our Time' giving a good account of themselves the previous week mercilessly reduced to a gibbering wreck by an Oxford don. And possibly deserving it, except that English (fluent though he was) was not his first language.
If it is any consolation, whilst I was typing out bravura paragraph after bravura paragraph admonishing you and Guthrum I did not pay enough attention to a saucepan I had on the hob and now I have managed to burn, yes burn, some runner beans. |
We're all human beans burning on the hob of life ...
You're right about hardcore political philosophy and the need for precision, but that's its strength and its greatest weakness. The more precise we are, there's the risk that the less we understand.
But we certainly need more political philosophy than we have at the moment in political debates. There was barely a discussion of policies, let alone overall directions of travel. | |
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| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 15:09 - May 1 with 815 views | Clapham_Junction |
| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 12:58 - May 1 by Libero |
Maybe, it just doesn't really justify shouting down someone who's just being sensible.
Personally I think the polarised nature of discussion and the way in which people take stances and defend them to their death is really unhealthy and doesn't encourage any kind of progression. So many 'conversations' aren't really conversations, they're just people regurgitating their bit getting more and more aggressive/rude/extreme.
It's possible to be in support of a rhetoric/system of belief/values but to academically understand the potential pitfalls/hypocrisies/difficulties in implementing it.
There's a difference between this and the kind of fence sitting you're talking about in my opinion. |
I agree that shouting down people who are being sensible is stupid.
However, I don't think that many of these people are being sensible or are seriously weighing up/thinking about issues. Instead they are just wedded to the view that both main parties are as bad as each other, when on several issues, the direction or behaviour of one is clearly more extreme/worrying than the other.
Personally I also think the Lib Dems have done a lot of damage by playing this card rather than (as a few of their candidates did) admitting one side was preferable to the other and taking a hit for the benefit of wider society. [Post edited 1 May 2020 15:10]
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| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 15:10 - May 1 with 815 views | WeWereZombies |
I do not think any poster has addressed your final sentence yet so let me enlighten you. It is for you to understand this World, to perceive; and to reason about what you perceive. Eventually you may have a rough idea about how things work. If you try and demand that things work in the way that you want them to I expect you to be perpetually disappointed. | |
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| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 15:11 - May 1 with 809 views | Libero |
| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 14:54 - May 1 by Darth_Koont |
The idea of "alternative facts" (uh, they're either facts or they're not) started off as amusing but it's got remarkably warped and dangerous since then.
What they've basically done is created anti-science and anti-progress, because science is already about challenging conclusions and discovering other facts. Certainly science can be challenged from the outside re: ethical and public good questions but scientists generally welcome and encourage that as part of their own debates.
But these "alternative" people have created ideas and content that's already far more unethical and dishonest in how it's used and abused to manipulate people. |
In my view it's that kind of purposeful and dangerous muddying of the water which makes people take those staunch positions and become so immovable.
I guess it's no surprise people cling to what they (think they) know when everything else is so uncertain and purposefully confusing.
I guess a wider question is how can we as a society heal?
When there's such inherent distrust of "the other" and fractious/temperamental discord what is the platform that will allow people to find commonality and compromise? | | | |
| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 15:14 - May 1 with 799 views | WeWereZombies |
| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 15:07 - May 1 by Darth_Koont |
We're all human beans burning on the hob of life ...
You're right about hardcore political philosophy and the need for precision, but that's its strength and its greatest weakness. The more precise we are, there's the risk that the less we understand.
But we certainly need more political philosophy than we have at the moment in political debates. There was barely a discussion of policies, let alone overall directions of travel. |
Maybe, but I have worn myself down now to the point where I am tired on myself and even a bit fed up with the forum so I am going to log off and continue catching up on 'Race Across The World'. | |
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| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 15:20 - May 1 with 793 views | Libero |
| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 14:59 - May 1 by solemio |
Well done to the main protagonists (I mean contributors!) to this thread.
It really is of a much above average standard for TWTD. |
It's great when the discussion isn't just petty point scoring.
Some very well thought out and considered responses that make you think about your own stance and values. | | | |
| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 15:35 - May 1 with 779 views | Darth_Koont |
| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 15:11 - May 1 by Libero |
In my view it's that kind of purposeful and dangerous muddying of the water which makes people take those staunch positions and become so immovable.
I guess it's no surprise people cling to what they (think they) know when everything else is so uncertain and purposefully confusing.
I guess a wider question is how can we as a society heal?
When there's such inherent distrust of "the other" and fractious/temperamental discord what is the platform that will allow people to find commonality and compromise? |
That's a good question.
I'm fairly optimistic that the younger generation is already more sceptical and less likely to perpetuate the spread of nonsense or at least to act upon it. So I think a lot of the problems on social media are Old World thinking coming into contact with New World technology and tactics.
Certainly my daughters are more sceptical and able to safely navigate the "facts" on the Internet than my 78-year-old ex-scientist Dad. And I don't think I'm alone in observing that.
But I keep banging on about it and think our biggest problem is our media and the factual standards they have lowered themselves to. As some sort of professional and dedicated buffer between us and politicians, propagandists or any other sources of information out there, they've been next to useless in recent years. For every factual exposé there's been 20 clickbaity pieces that repeat a narrative as opinion or give someone a semi-respectable platform to speak unchallenged. And that's just the "centrist" Guardian and BBC, never mind the partisan press that will promote any crackpot political idea by their team, prejudice, foreign invasion, pointless celebrity in their bikini or health scare with its own homeopathic remedy. All designed to actively misinform and manipulate.
Again, I hope that youngsters stop consuming this stuff - and it seems like they are. Covid-19 is also having a huge effect on their business. The sooner our media can burn to the ground the better. Then there's a chance something with a semblance of a point (and a genuine public benefit) can emerge from the ashes and really start speaking truth to power and protecting people against dangerous ideas. | |
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| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 15:44 - May 1 with 766 views | Libero |
| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 15:35 - May 1 by Darth_Koont |
That's a good question.
I'm fairly optimistic that the younger generation is already more sceptical and less likely to perpetuate the spread of nonsense or at least to act upon it. So I think a lot of the problems on social media are Old World thinking coming into contact with New World technology and tactics.
Certainly my daughters are more sceptical and able to safely navigate the "facts" on the Internet than my 78-year-old ex-scientist Dad. And I don't think I'm alone in observing that.
But I keep banging on about it and think our biggest problem is our media and the factual standards they have lowered themselves to. As some sort of professional and dedicated buffer between us and politicians, propagandists or any other sources of information out there, they've been next to useless in recent years. For every factual exposé there's been 20 clickbaity pieces that repeat a narrative as opinion or give someone a semi-respectable platform to speak unchallenged. And that's just the "centrist" Guardian and BBC, never mind the partisan press that will promote any crackpot political idea by their team, prejudice, foreign invasion, pointless celebrity in their bikini or health scare with its own homeopathic remedy. All designed to actively misinform and manipulate.
Again, I hope that youngsters stop consuming this stuff - and it seems like they are. Covid-19 is also having a huge effect on their business. The sooner our media can burn to the ground the better. Then there's a chance something with a semblance of a point (and a genuine public benefit) can emerge from the ashes and really start speaking truth to power and protecting people against dangerous ideas. |
You're right in my opinion about young people being more sceptical and able to navigate and wade through the nonsense, however this kind of tribalism and polarisation isn't just limited to being left wing or right wing, it's bled into the fabric of people's identity and unfortunately young people are just as tied Identity politics as any other generation, if not more so.
At the risk of sounding a bit tinfoil hat, I think the people that want to divide us have done a very good job and that it's almost beyond being systemic now.
It certainly appears to me that as a society we now autonomously divide ourselves in situations where it would be more beneficial to focus on what bonds us.
There's a possibility that after this crisis elements of society will be reconsidered, reconstituted or rebuilt, that's a positive. [Post edited 1 May 2020 15:46]
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| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 15:59 - May 1 with 749 views | Darth_Koont |
| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 15:44 - May 1 by Libero |
You're right in my opinion about young people being more sceptical and able to navigate and wade through the nonsense, however this kind of tribalism and polarisation isn't just limited to being left wing or right wing, it's bled into the fabric of people's identity and unfortunately young people are just as tied Identity politics as any other generation, if not more so.
At the risk of sounding a bit tinfoil hat, I think the people that want to divide us have done a very good job and that it's almost beyond being systemic now.
It certainly appears to me that as a society we now autonomously divide ourselves in situations where it would be more beneficial to focus on what bonds us.
There's a possibility that after this crisis elements of society will be reconsidered, reconstituted or rebuilt, that's a positive. [Post edited 1 May 2020 15:46]
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No, it's not tin foil hat at all.
People with power and money don't give them up willingly, in fact they're more likely to just want more. So, I don't think it's a coincidence that the most extreme of them are the ones who are funding the alt-right and all sorts of populists who are pretending to be the alternative but are basically fragmenting and weakening any legitimate opposition.
Brexit is a case in point. Farage, Banks and the disaster capitalists of the ERG (with the rest of the Tory Party hopping on the bandwagon) effectively co-opted the genuine disillusionment and disenfranchisement in this country for their own ends. Which is as effective a way as anything to ensure very little meaningful change will happen and the inequality and lack of representation that led to the disillusionment and disenfranchisement will still remain. Job done. | |
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| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 16:36 - May 1 with 730 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 11:59 - May 1 by Lord_Lucan |
A hot egg, a crescent of crisps and a side clump of cress. |
And some MDMA-infused brie.. |  |
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| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 17:12 - May 1 with 721 views | hampstead_blue |
| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 14:07 - May 1 by footers |
If you think China's a communist country, I got news for ya buddy. |
Authoritarian not communist.
And to answer Giant Ulla, I was standing facing North. | |
| Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me.
Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing.
Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial.
Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid.
Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
| | Poll: | Best Blackpool goal |
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| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 17:16 - May 1 with 720 views | hampstead_blue |
| Authoritarian to the left, buffoon the right, here we are... on 14:59 - May 1 by solemio |
Well done to the main protagonists (I mean contributors!) to this thread.
It really is of a much above average standard for TWTD. |
It is really interesting how the debate and conversation has developed.
I like it.
No grit or naughtyness, just a good old chat.
I had no intention, sorry Callis ;-) of making it a big 'un, it was more an observation of being stuck between a rock and a hard place.
Nothing political at all.
Oh, whomever said I was a thingy short of a picnic, my COO agrees. "Unhinged" was his retort to a Whatsapp and strada post of yesterday. | |
| Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me.
Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing.
Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial.
Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid.
Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
| | Poll: | Best Blackpool goal |
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