| I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app 11:30 - May 5 with 4240 views | gordon |
We're going to find out why it's actually not such a great idea to have a Government full of charlatans that think it's fine to constantly lie, cheat and mislead the public. |  | | |  |
| I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 14:56 - May 5 with 1386 views | DanTheMan |
| I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 14:53 - May 5 by monytowbray |
I don’t think you understand the power of tech. |
I also think people tend to overestimate it to, to be fair.
For example there are multiple people in this thread who are saying "well you can be tracked already". That is very likely true through various means.
However I would add that mass surveillance done properly is incredibly difficult without being detected.
For example if I was sending messages about committing terrorist acts over Telegram or WhatsApp and the Government knew about me, I have no doubt they'd be able to get that information off my phone remotely.
However if they wanted to monitor every single phone in England for key word searches in anything approaching real time, that would be insanely difficult, especially since we've moved away from SMS as a whole which was not end to end encrypted. |  |
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| I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 14:56 - May 5 with 1384 views | Keno |
| I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 14:53 - May 5 by monytowbray |
I don’t think you understand the power of tech. |
I dont understand cos I cant be tracked and traced now? |  |
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| I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 14:59 - May 5 with 1378 views | DanTheMan |
| I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 14:55 - May 5 by vilanovablue |
The government will be making the code open source so we'll soon know how secure/insecure it is. Pretty much all of government does this. I work in technology as a partner to a department and know it's out there if people wish to look at it. |
I was aware that branches that some parts of their software open source (mainly on GitHub) but I'd be surprised if most of it was. Seems fairly new.
The NHSX repos are not that busy. There's a few prototypes and some websites, as well as some chest imaging software. I imagine they develop far, far more than that.
Would be extremely happy if it was open sourced, especially if they were hashing the releases. | |
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| I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 16:50 - May 5 with 1337 views | DanTheMan |
Just as another response, as I mentioned in the other thread, as more information comes to light about how this works, the blog post make start to get picked apart a little bit. Now the Register can be a bit "inflammatory" on purpose for a tech site however it's usually reliable.
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2020/05/05/uk_coronavirus_app/
I'm not sure I agree 100% with the article, however the technical issues they detail there if true are pretty alarming. Most people aren't walking around with their phones out and screens on. | |
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| I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 17:16 - May 5 with 1325 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 14:43 - May 5 by Keno |
so basically you have something to hide and that will stop you doing something that might stop people dying
Thats the spirit!! |
With the current global drift to the right it is reassuring that you and your family will never have anything to hide from the state. |  |
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| I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 17:25 - May 5 with 1317 views | vilanovablue |
| I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 14:59 - May 5 by DanTheMan |
I was aware that branches that some parts of their software open source (mainly on GitHub) but I'd be surprised if most of it was. Seems fairly new.
The NHSX repos are not that busy. There's a few prototypes and some websites, as well as some chest imaging software. I imagine they develop far, far more than that.
Would be extremely happy if it was open sourced, especially if they were hashing the releases. |
The app will be built under GDS (Government Digital Services) guidelines particularly given the likely number of users. From what I've read it will be available it is quite likely that whilst it's effectively in Beta the repos may be locked for now which is quite common. I think it is in their interests to do this following standard operating procedures. |  | | |
| I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 17:26 - May 5 with 1314 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 16:50 - May 5 by DanTheMan |
Just as another response, as I mentioned in the other thread, as more information comes to light about how this works, the blog post make start to get picked apart a little bit. Now the Register can be a bit "inflammatory" on purpose for a tech site however it's usually reliable.
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2020/05/05/uk_coronavirus_app/
I'm not sure I agree 100% with the article, however the technical issues they detail there if true are pretty alarming. Most people aren't walking around with their phones out and screens on. |
The Reg can be inflammatory certainly, but it is generally very good on the technical side.. |  |
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| I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 17:27 - May 5 with 1313 views | vilanovablue |
| I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 16:50 - May 5 by DanTheMan |
Just as another response, as I mentioned in the other thread, as more information comes to light about how this works, the blog post make start to get picked apart a little bit. Now the Register can be a bit "inflammatory" on purpose for a tech site however it's usually reliable.
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2020/05/05/uk_coronavirus_app/
I'm not sure I agree 100% with the article, however the technical issues they detail there if true are pretty alarming. Most people aren't walking around with their phones out and screens on. |
The centralised/decentralised approach is an interesting argument. I don't think we'll know which is the best approach until they've been seen in use. I can see some sense in both. | | | |
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| I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 17:31 - May 5 with 1310 views | DanTheMan |
| I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 17:27 - May 5 by vilanovablue |
The centralised/decentralised approach is an interesting argument. I don't think we'll know which is the best approach until they've been seen in use. I can see some sense in both. |
From a standpoint of the Government wanting to be able to run models over the data, absolutely makes sense to go for that.
My concern now is that technically the centralised model looks flawed given the BLE implementation in both iOS and Android. Been years since I've done any bluetooth development on Android but what they've said there does make sense. | |
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| I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 17:33 - May 5 with 1305 views | monytowbray |
| I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 14:56 - May 5 by Keno |
I dont understand cos I cant be tracked and traced now? |
You can if someone decides to look you up. When you have all that data on GPS and can identify patterns of people meeting that’s a different story.
As someone who works with data, trust me, it’s dangerous. Has Cambridge Analytica taught the public nothing? |  |
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| I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 17:36 - May 5 with 1299 views | DanTheMan |
| I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 17:33 - May 5 by monytowbray |
You can if someone decides to look you up. When you have all that data on GPS and can identify patterns of people meeting that’s a different story.
As someone who works with data, trust me, it’s dangerous. Has Cambridge Analytica taught the public nothing? |
Just as a note, the current information we have suggests they would not be using GPS data (I'm guessing this is why they want the first half of your post code).
Once the app is in the wild, it will be trivial to prove whether that is correct. | |
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| I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 17:39 - May 5 with 1293 views | monytowbray |
| I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 17:36 - May 5 by DanTheMan |
Just as a note, the current information we have suggests they would not be using GPS data (I'm guessing this is why they want the first half of your post code).
Once the app is in the wild, it will be trivial to prove whether that is correct. |
I don’t believe for a second it will work on bluetooth which is what I think I understood from reading.
The government are gonna be having a wet dream either way, they’ve wanted mass surveillance for years. | |
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| I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 17:42 - May 5 with 1291 views | DanTheMan |
| I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 17:39 - May 5 by monytowbray |
I don’t believe for a second it will work on bluetooth which is what I think I understood from reading.
The government are gonna be having a wet dream either way, they’ve wanted mass surveillance for years. |
OK so just to give you an idea about how Android and iOS work, there is no way they are going to be able to access your GPS without making it incredibly obvious.
In Android, you cannot access it without detailing you will be wanting that specific permission. Once you actually try and use the GPS, if you have not prompted the user, the OS will ask you if it is OK for the app to have access to the GPS. There is no way round this without being a system level application.
You cannot install system level applications on the fly. I know because I've literally tried to do this for an application that was used by the NHS that I helped develop. | |
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| I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 17:44 - May 5 with 1286 views | mo_itfc |
| I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 17:33 - May 5 by monytowbray |
You can if someone decides to look you up. When you have all that data on GPS and can identify patterns of people meeting that’s a different story.
As someone who works with data, trust me, it’s dangerous. Has Cambridge Analytica taught the public nothing? |
The whole concept is to track the users phone as an anonymous user.
GPS won't be captured, and if it was, a user can mock GPS quite easily!
So many people are so quick to jump to the negative conspiracy theory scenarios!
At the end of the day, this lockdown sucks and people dying sucks... this track and trace method may be a way to make it all a bit better! why would you not want this to work?! |  |
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| I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 17:46 - May 5 with 1276 views | monytowbray |
| I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 17:42 - May 5 by DanTheMan |
OK so just to give you an idea about how Android and iOS work, there is no way they are going to be able to access your GPS without making it incredibly obvious.
In Android, you cannot access it without detailing you will be wanting that specific permission. Once you actually try and use the GPS, if you have not prompted the user, the OS will ask you if it is OK for the app to have access to the GPS. There is no way round this without being a system level application.
You cannot install system level applications on the fly. I know because I've literally tried to do this for an application that was used by the NHS that I helped develop. |
I guess we’ll see when we get it and it asks for permissions. Would an app need to ask for bluetooth permissions too?
I just can’t figure out how it would work otherwise. WeChat has the advantage of the fact people pay using it so they know what shops they’ve been to, what flights and transport journeys taken, etc. | |
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| I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 17:53 - May 5 with 1270 views | Trequartista |
| I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 14:47 - May 5 by Libero |
Just so people are aware, If you have a smart phone the government can already 'track' you.
While I understand people's concerns I think I'll be downloading the app.
It's essentially a tool to help us try to gain back parts of our life that we have lost in the last 2 months and to help keep people safe, the idea that it's anything more sinister than anything that already exists is currently unfounded. |
Replied in wrong place. [Post edited 5 May 2020 17:54]
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| I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 17:55 - May 5 with 1265 views | Trequartista |
If i die of coronavirus, i can have "Here lies ah-ha you never found out" written on my gravestone. Brilliant. | |
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| I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 17:56 - May 5 with 1265 views | DanTheMan |
| I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 17:46 - May 5 by monytowbray |
I guess we’ll see when we get it and it asks for permissions. Would an app need to ask for bluetooth permissions too?
I just can’t figure out how it would work otherwise. WeChat has the advantage of the fact people pay using it so they know what shops they’ve been to, what flights and transport journeys taken, etc. |
In Android I don't think you need a user prompt for it like Location, however in the app manifest you need to detail specifically what Bluetooth functionality the application is going to use. It's split up into different categories based on the amount of information you're going to need.
In the application manifest, unless you have listed upfront that you will be trying to receive a "fine" location, GPS will not work at all. I'm pretty sure it'd just crash outright, at least that's how it used to behave.
This is only for Android, I don't have any experience programming for iOS. However they are usually WAY stricter.
They detail how it is going to work from a technical standpoint in a blog which is linked to in The Register article link above. [Post edited 5 May 2020 17:59]
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| I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 17:57 - May 5 with 1261 views | Swansea_Blue |
| I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 11:52 - May 5 by monytowbray |
I ain't downloading jack sh1t the government tell me to on my phone until I know the full privacy impact. |
What could possibly go wrong with giving access to your personal data to a group of charlatans who've made a killing off the immoral (illegal?) manipulation of personal data? |  |
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| I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 18:47 - May 5 with 1243 views | longtimefan |
| I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 17:31 - May 5 by DanTheMan |
From a standpoint of the Government wanting to be able to run models over the data, absolutely makes sense to go for that.
My concern now is that technically the centralised model looks flawed given the BLE implementation in both iOS and Android. Been years since I've done any bluetooth development on Android but what they've said there does make sense. |
If Bluetooth is the problem can you explain how the Apple/Google decentralised implementations work? Are they using some other means of communicating between devices? [Post edited 5 May 2020 19:34]
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| I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 19:09 - May 5 with 1235 views | monytowbray |
| I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 17:56 - May 5 by DanTheMan |
In Android I don't think you need a user prompt for it like Location, however in the app manifest you need to detail specifically what Bluetooth functionality the application is going to use. It's split up into different categories based on the amount of information you're going to need.
In the application manifest, unless you have listed upfront that you will be trying to receive a "fine" location, GPS will not work at all. I'm pretty sure it'd just crash outright, at least that's how it used to behave.
This is only for Android, I don't have any experience programming for iOS. However they are usually WAY stricter.
They detail how it is going to work from a technical standpoint in a blog which is linked to in The Register article link above. [Post edited 5 May 2020 17:59]
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Will check that out when I’m not half asleep. | |
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| I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 21:13 - May 5 with 1210 views | DanTheMan |
| I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 18:47 - May 5 by longtimefan |
If Bluetooth is the problem can you explain how the Apple/Google decentralised implementations work? Are they using some other means of communicating between devices? [Post edited 5 May 2020 19:34]
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They're in control of the operating system and the APIs (application programming interface).
Under normal circumstances, with the screen off or an app not being used, said app could not use BLE (Bluetooth Low Energy). This is for all sorts of good reasons but the biggest one is power drain. It would only take a few poorly optimised applications to drain batteries.
What's happening with the approach both Apple and Google are taking is that they will lift these restrictions and allow this kind of BLE for one app per country, and work with said the developers to make sure they don't drain the battery for everyone.
People will just uninstall the application if it drains the battery after half a day, which would be useful to no one. They are, as far as I can tell, only allowing this for the decentralised model. | |
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| I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 21:57 - May 5 with 1197 views | longtimefan |
| I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 21:13 - May 5 by DanTheMan |
They're in control of the operating system and the APIs (application programming interface).
Under normal circumstances, with the screen off or an app not being used, said app could not use BLE (Bluetooth Low Energy). This is for all sorts of good reasons but the biggest one is power drain. It would only take a few poorly optimised applications to drain batteries.
What's happening with the approach both Apple and Google are taking is that they will lift these restrictions and allow this kind of BLE for one app per country, and work with said the developers to make sure they don't drain the battery for everyone.
People will just uninstall the application if it drains the battery after half a day, which would be useful to no one. They are, as far as I can tell, only allowing this for the decentralised model. |
Thanks for that explanation. So presumably Apple/Google could make that API available to the NHS App for this country, other than their reluctance to allow a centralised system? | | | |
| I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 07:42 - May 6 with 1153 views | DanTheMan |
| I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 21:57 - May 5 by longtimefan |
Thanks for that explanation. So presumably Apple/Google could make that API available to the NHS App for this country, other than their reluctance to allow a centralised system? |
They could, but I cannot imagine they will. They want countries to use the decentralised model because of security concerns. | |
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| I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 08:40 - May 6 with 1138 views | GeoffSentence |
| I guess with this new Warner / Cummings tracking app on 13:01 - May 5 by Ace_High1 |
If it stops people dying and gets us closer to getting to the end of all this, I would not mind. |
It's not so much what is being done, but how it is being done.
The trouble with this one is that they seem to have gone down the road of a centralised system, with some data stored centrally with all the privacy and security concerns that entails.
Some other countries are introducing tracking apps that are completely decentralised, so data is only kept on users phones. Which has much lighter implications for government monitoring than our one does.
Other than that I don't know if there are any other benefits of a centralised over decentralised system or vice versa.
On the plus side, it is voluntary. A compulsory centralised government monitoring app would be much more worrying. |  |
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