| YouGov latest opinion poll this morning 13:09 - May 7 with 10470 views | Tommyparker |
Conservatives 50%
Labour 30% |  | | |  |
| YouGov latest opinion poll this morning on 13:38 - May 10 with 606 views | Darth_Koont |
| YouGov latest opinion poll this morning on 13:22 - May 10 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
That chart shows the poverty rate to be about 4% lower at the end than in 1997
It also shows the rate dropping significantly during the period of New Labour, and increasing during the period where Corbyn led the party. Again it’s almost like being truly committed to tackling the issue is meaningless if you’re not in a position to actually do so
I won’t bother tackling the global economy point, you’re just rewriting history to suggest that’s the only reason New Labour implemented the positive initiatives they did [Post edited 10 May 2020 13:23]
|
Gmpf. That's 25 years of "progress".
You're playing with the stats to give your brand of politics an undeserved slap on the back for not doing enough. Make any excuses you want but that's why we need genuine progressive policies - at least in political debate. |  |
| |
| YouGov latest opinion poll this morning on 13:48 - May 10 with 590 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| YouGov latest opinion poll this morning on 13:38 - May 10 by Darth_Koont |
Gmpf. That's 25 years of "progress".
You're playing with the stats to give your brand of politics an undeserved slap on the back for not doing enough. Make any excuses you want but that's why we need genuine progressive policies - at least in political debate. |
The child poverty rate dropped considerably during the period New Labour were in power. Outside of that it has generally risen
I haven’t played with any stats - that is quite literally what your graph shows |  |
| |
| YouGov latest opinion poll this morning on 13:57 - May 10 with 575 views | giant_stow |
| YouGov latest opinion poll this morning on 13:38 - May 10 by Darth_Koont |
Gmpf. That's 25 years of "progress".
You're playing with the stats to give your brand of politics an undeserved slap on the back for not doing enough. Make any excuses you want but that's why we need genuine progressive policies - at least in political debate. |
pretty weak. |  |
| |
| YouGov latest opinion poll this morning on 14:02 - May 10 with 566 views | Darth_Koont |
| YouGov latest opinion poll this morning on 13:48 - May 10 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
The child poverty rate dropped considerably during the period New Labour were in power. Outside of that it has generally risen
I haven’t played with any stats - that is quite literally what your graph shows |
I've never said New Labour weren't better than the Conservatives. But it's still a poor legacy not to do more than go from 34% to 30% after 13 years of a nominally centre-left government (which of course it wasn't). And during a period of overall economic growth too.
You seem happy enough with it. But I'm not satisfied that's enough of an alternative and counter-balance to the direction Tory governments tend to take us and the inequalities they increase. We're still talking about 4 million children and the long-term cost of that, never mind the lack of humanity in what's acceptable for the most vulnerable in society. | |
| |
| YouGov latest opinion poll this morning on 14:04 - May 10 with 564 views | Darth_Koont |
| YouGov latest opinion poll this morning on 13:57 - May 10 by giant_stow |
pretty weak. |
It is indeed, ullaa. | |
| |
| YouGov latest opinion poll this morning on 15:17 - May 10 with 515 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| YouGov latest opinion poll this morning on 14:02 - May 10 by Darth_Koont |
I've never said New Labour weren't better than the Conservatives. But it's still a poor legacy not to do more than go from 34% to 30% after 13 years of a nominally centre-left government (which of course it wasn't). And during a period of overall economic growth too.
You seem happy enough with it. But I'm not satisfied that's enough of an alternative and counter-balance to the direction Tory governments tend to take us and the inequalities they increase. We're still talking about 4 million children and the long-term cost of that, never mind the lack of humanity in what's acceptable for the most vulnerable in society. |
The drop from 34% to 30% was from the start of New Labour government to the end of your chart, not the period Labour were in power. That includes c8 years of Conservative government
The drop under New Labour was much larger - in fact the chart I posted from the IFS indicates the relative rate to be as low as 17-18% by 2010
If you’re going to post tables it helps if you actually read them first, otherwise you might end up looking a bit silly | |
| |
| YouGov latest opinion poll this morning on 15:33 - May 10 with 502 views | Darth_Koont |
| YouGov latest opinion poll this morning on 15:17 - May 10 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
The drop from 34% to 30% was from the start of New Labour government to the end of your chart, not the period Labour were in power. That includes c8 years of Conservative government
The drop under New Labour was much larger - in fact the chart I posted from the IFS indicates the relative rate to be as low as 17-18% by 2010
If you’re going to post tables it helps if you actually read them first, otherwise you might end up looking a bit silly |
That's before housing costs by the look of it.
https://fullfact.org/economy/poverty-uk-guide-facts-and-figures/
You've no disagreement from me that they're better than the Tories. But not really sure why you're defending this in absolute terms. We let child poverty rise to these levels under Thatcher and free-market economics but since then we've never had the will to redress that imbalance in any meaningful sense. | |
| |
| YouGov latest opinion poll this morning on 15:42 - May 10 with 487 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| YouGov latest opinion poll this morning on 15:33 - May 10 by Darth_Koont |
That's before housing costs by the look of it.
https://fullfact.org/economy/poverty-uk-guide-facts-and-figures/
You've no disagreement from me that they're better than the Tories. But not really sure why you're defending this in absolute terms. We let child poverty rise to these levels under Thatcher and free-market economics but since then we've never had the will to redress that imbalance in any meaningful sense. |
It’s the standard relative poverty measure, full article/study here:
https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/6738
I’m defending it in absolute terms as there was a huge improvement in the position when New Labour were in charge, as a result of them taking meaningful measures to do so, by virtue of actually getting themselves in a position to do so [Post edited 10 May 2020 15:44]
| |
| |
Login to get fewer ads
| YouGov latest opinion poll this morning on 15:49 - May 10 with 474 views | Darth_Koont |
| YouGov latest opinion poll this morning on 15:42 - May 10 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
It’s the standard relative poverty measure, full article/study here:
https://www.ifs.org.uk/publications/6738
I’m defending it in absolute terms as there was a huge improvement in the position when New Labour were in charge, as a result of them taking meaningful measures to do so, by virtue of actually getting themselves in a position to do so [Post edited 10 May 2020 15:44]
|
That's a reading on it based on not actually addressing child poverty causes but as they say in the report by temporarily improving the picture but not the actual outlook with an increase in benefits and tax credits.
There was no actual commitment to ending child poverty despite what they said.
The long-term, structural data is clear and you've completely dodged it. | |
| |
| YouGov latest opinion poll this morning on 15:58 - May 10 with 457 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| YouGov latest opinion poll this morning on 15:49 - May 10 by Darth_Koont |
That's a reading on it based on not actually addressing child poverty causes but as they say in the report by temporarily improving the picture but not the actual outlook with an increase in benefits and tax credits.
There was no actual commitment to ending child poverty despite what they said.
The long-term, structural data is clear and you've completely dodged it. |
“There were many other Labour initiatives that could be considered anti-poverty policies. These include the introduction of the National Minimum Wage, Sure Start, increased financial support for childcare, significant increases in education spending and an expansion of the number of young people going on to higher education. Any payoffs from most of these measures will be long run, rather than immediate”
The article confirms the drop was achieved both through an increase in spending and long term measures. Good to see you paid as much attention to reading it as you did your own chart | |
| |
| YouGov latest opinion poll this morning on 16:07 - May 10 with 443 views | Darth_Koont |
| YouGov latest opinion poll this morning on 15:58 - May 10 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
“There were many other Labour initiatives that could be considered anti-poverty policies. These include the introduction of the National Minimum Wage, Sure Start, increased financial support for childcare, significant increases in education spending and an expansion of the number of young people going on to higher education. Any payoffs from most of these measures will be long run, rather than immediate”
The article confirms the drop was achieved both through an increase in spending and long term measures. Good to see you paid as much attention to reading it as you did your own chart |
I suggest you read more yourself, rather than cherry-picking. There's still a lot more to do on all those plus other measures such as addressing regional imbalances.
You seem OK with child poverty hovering around 4 million and you're happy with reducing it by a few hundred thousand over a decade or more (only for it to inevitably slide back up again when the belts are tightened).
I still don't think that's anywhere near enough for a supposedly alternative and progressive government. | |
| |
| YouGov latest opinion poll this morning on 16:22 - May 10 with 426 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| YouGov latest opinion poll this morning on 16:07 - May 10 by Darth_Koont |
I suggest you read more yourself, rather than cherry-picking. There's still a lot more to do on all those plus other measures such as addressing regional imbalances.
You seem OK with child poverty hovering around 4 million and you're happy with reducing it by a few hundred thousand over a decade or more (only for it to inevitably slide back up again when the belts are tightened).
I still don't think that's anywhere near enough for a supposedly alternative and progressive government. |
No, cherry picking is just highlighting the short term bit that supports your argument and ignoring the long term bits
I’m not happy with child poverty levels which is why I’m so positive towards a government that was able to actually reduce that figure, rather than championing ones that aren’t as they never get themselves in a position to do so. Taking your argument to it’s logical conclusion, presumably you’re happy with it staying as it is so long as the Labour Party sticks to your ideological pipedream whilst continuing to lose election after election [Post edited 10 May 2020 16:24]
| |
| |
| YouGov latest opinion poll this morning on 17:05 - May 10 with 405 views | Darth_Koont |
| YouGov latest opinion poll this morning on 16:22 - May 10 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
No, cherry picking is just highlighting the short term bit that supports your argument and ignoring the long term bits
I’m not happy with child poverty levels which is why I’m so positive towards a government that was able to actually reduce that figure, rather than championing ones that aren’t as they never get themselves in a position to do so. Taking your argument to it’s logical conclusion, presumably you’re happy with it staying as it is so long as the Labour Party sticks to your ideological pipedream whilst continuing to lose election after election [Post edited 10 May 2020 16:24]
|
Politics is a debate. If we don't talk about and raise issues and priorities then nothing happens when parties are in power.
Whether that's poverty, regional inequality, healthcare, the environment, racism, sexism, disabled rights, peace or whatever, these things need to be campaigned for and championed or as we saw with New Labour not enough gets done.
If we head back to empty suits angling for power then I'll just go back to ignoring Labour and voting for whoever's marginally better or just green. While hoping Scotland becomes independent where these conversations and politics are already more central to mainstream society. | |
| |
| YouGov latest opinion poll this morning on 17:31 - May 10 with 387 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| YouGov latest opinion poll this morning on 17:05 - May 10 by Darth_Koont |
Politics is a debate. If we don't talk about and raise issues and priorities then nothing happens when parties are in power.
Whether that's poverty, regional inequality, healthcare, the environment, racism, sexism, disabled rights, peace or whatever, these things need to be campaigned for and championed or as we saw with New Labour not enough gets done.
If we head back to empty suits angling for power then I'll just go back to ignoring Labour and voting for whoever's marginally better or just green. While hoping Scotland becomes independent where these conversations and politics are already more central to mainstream society. |
‘Nothing happens when parties are in power’...apart from when the child poverty rate quite literally dropped significantly under New Labour
You can bleat on about empty suits all you like but it’s a meaningless soundbite with no basis in reality - even you acknowledged a few posts back that New Labour were better than the Conservatives which makes continuing this point all the more bizarre [Post edited 10 May 2020 17:31]
| |
| |
| YouGov latest opinion poll this morning on 17:37 - May 10 with 381 views | NewcyBlue |
| YouGov latest opinion poll this morning on 17:05 - May 10 by Darth_Koont |
Politics is a debate. If we don't talk about and raise issues and priorities then nothing happens when parties are in power.
Whether that's poverty, regional inequality, healthcare, the environment, racism, sexism, disabled rights, peace or whatever, these things need to be campaigned for and championed or as we saw with New Labour not enough gets done.
If we head back to empty suits angling for power then I'll just go back to ignoring Labour and voting for whoever's marginally better or just green. While hoping Scotland becomes independent where these conversations and politics are already more central to mainstream society. |
Has enough ever been done under any government? |  |
| |
| YouGov latest opinion poll this morning on 17:51 - May 10 with 362 views | Darth_Koont |
| YouGov latest opinion poll this morning on 17:37 - May 10 by NewcyBlue |
Has enough ever been done under any government? |
No, not since the post-war social reforms at any rate.
But we're now remarkably blasé and accepting of the status quo and the out-of-date electoral system and monolithic parties that prop it up. | |
| |
| YouGov latest opinion poll this morning on 18:11 - May 10 with 347 views | Darth_Koont |
| YouGov latest opinion poll this morning on 17:31 - May 10 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
‘Nothing happens when parties are in power’...apart from when the child poverty rate quite literally dropped significantly under New Labour
You can bleat on about empty suits all you like but it’s a meaningless soundbite with no basis in reality - even you acknowledged a few posts back that New Labour were better than the Conservatives which makes continuing this point all the more bizarre [Post edited 10 May 2020 17:31]
|
You've taken a slice of IFS data as a way of saying how child poverty was dealt with under Labour over 13 years. But in reality over the longer term and using the most commonly accepted metrics you can see that it was barely a blip and didn't succeed in reversing anything.
There needs to be more commitment than that and it needs to be higher on the agenda. You just disagree. | |
| |
| YouGov latest opinion poll this morning on 18:21 - May 10 with 329 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| YouGov latest opinion poll this morning on 18:11 - May 10 by Darth_Koont |
You've taken a slice of IFS data as a way of saying how child poverty was dealt with under Labour over 13 years. But in reality over the longer term and using the most commonly accepted metrics you can see that it was barely a blip and didn't succeed in reversing anything.
There needs to be more commitment than that and it needs to be higher on the agenda. You just disagree. |
All metrics show that it reduced under New Labour - indeed your own chart showed that if you actually read it properly and acknowledge the dates they were in government
Over the longer term it has risen again as the Tories have presided over a decade of cuts and austerity - in part thanks to a complete absence of viable opposition. Somewhat odd take to attribute that to New Labour but I guess it’s easier than looking in the mirror [Post edited 10 May 2020 18:21]
| |
| |
| YouGov latest opinion poll this morning on 18:29 - May 10 with 310 views | Darth_Koont |
| YouGov latest opinion poll this morning on 18:21 - May 10 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
All metrics show that it reduced under New Labour - indeed your own chart showed that if you actually read it properly and acknowledge the dates they were in government
Over the longer term it has risen again as the Tories have presided over a decade of cuts and austerity - in part thanks to a complete absence of viable opposition. Somewhat odd take to attribute that to New Labour but I guess it’s easier than looking in the mirror [Post edited 10 May 2020 18:21]
|
I did say it went down but not enough. Which is clearly what the data shows in the Full Fact analysis you've dodged by taking the comparatively narrow IFS report instead.
Address that and you might understand that there's a lot more scope here. | |
| |
| YouGov latest opinion poll this morning on 18:44 - May 10 with 294 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| YouGov latest opinion poll this morning on 18:29 - May 10 by Darth_Koont |
I did say it went down but not enough. Which is clearly what the data shows in the Full Fact analysis you've dodged by taking the comparatively narrow IFS report instead.
Address that and you might understand that there's a lot more scope here. |
No, you said it went down from 34% to 30%, however the graph and full fact link you posted showed it going down considerably further than that for the period Labour were in power. Your numbers were based up to the end of the graph which included a long period of Conservative government, during which time the rate had risen again
Not sure why you’re claiming otherwise, it’s clear to anyone reading the thread
As for whether it was enough, it’s considerably more than any other incarnation of the Labour Party has managed anytime recently. Which is very much the point | |
| |
| YouGov latest opinion poll this morning on 19:02 - May 10 with 283 views | Darth_Koont |
| YouGov latest opinion poll this morning on 18:44 - May 10 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
No, you said it went down from 34% to 30%, however the graph and full fact link you posted showed it going down considerably further than that for the period Labour were in power. Your numbers were based up to the end of the graph which included a long period of Conservative government, during which time the rate had risen again
Not sure why you’re claiming otherwise, it’s clear to anyone reading the thread
As for whether it was enough, it’s considerably more than any other incarnation of the Labour Party has managed anytime recently. Which is very much the point |
Well, you stick with that then. Looking at the Full Facts metrics closer it looks like it's still 34% in 2010/11 and getting closer to 30% after that which may in part be due to Labour policies.
But it isn't good enough as far as I'm concerned. I know I'm not going to shift you on that but you're not going to change my mind that this is some standard to aspire to now. | |
| |
| YouGov latest opinion poll this morning on 19:29 - May 10 with 261 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| YouGov latest opinion poll this morning on 19:02 - May 10 by Darth_Koont |
Well, you stick with that then. Looking at the Full Facts metrics closer it looks like it's still 34% in 2010/11 and getting closer to 30% after that which may in part be due to Labour policies.
But it isn't good enough as far as I'm concerned. I know I'm not going to shift you on that but you're not going to change my mind that this is some standard to aspire to now. |
That measure still shows a drop since 2000 when the figures start, and conveniently can’t be traced back to 1997 as it was a new measurement produced in 2018
The fullfact link also mentions the following in relation to where it derives the poverty line:
‘Why 54%? Actually, the SMC itself openly admits this is a “largely arbitrary” choice. It’s actually chosen so that there’s almost no difference in the overall level of UK poverty between this new measure and the existing ones used by the government. The main measure of relative poverty shows as many as 14 million people in poverty–this new measure has it at 14.3 million, due to this choice.
Changing that threshold makes a stark difference too–using the previous year’s figures if you made it 50%, you’d have “moved” 2.5 million people out of poverty. If you went for 60%, you’d have increased poverty by 2.3 million people.
That’s also why the SMC pays close attention to people who fall very close to that poverty line, and seeks to keep track of how deeply people are in poverty, and how persistently over time.
But it’s also why you need to treat the precise numbers they show with caution, because they could so easily be different with the slightest change in judgement for where to draw the line.’
 | |
| |
| YouGov latest opinion poll this morning on 19:32 - May 10 with 255 views | Darth_Koont |
| YouGov latest opinion poll this morning on 19:29 - May 10 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
That measure still shows a drop since 2000 when the figures start, and conveniently can’t be traced back to 1997 as it was a new measurement produced in 2018
The fullfact link also mentions the following in relation to where it derives the poverty line:
‘Why 54%? Actually, the SMC itself openly admits this is a “largely arbitrary” choice. It’s actually chosen so that there’s almost no difference in the overall level of UK poverty between this new measure and the existing ones used by the government. The main measure of relative poverty shows as many as 14 million people in poverty–this new measure has it at 14.3 million, due to this choice.
Changing that threshold makes a stark difference too–using the previous year’s figures if you made it 50%, you’d have “moved” 2.5 million people out of poverty. If you went for 60%, you’d have increased poverty by 2.3 million people.
That’s also why the SMC pays close attention to people who fall very close to that poverty line, and seeks to keep track of how deeply people are in poverty, and how persistently over time.
But it’s also why you need to treat the precise numbers they show with caution, because they could so easily be different with the slightest change in judgement for where to draw the line.’
|
Feel free to find other historical data.
https://lmgtfy.com/?q=uk+child+poverty+historical
The IFS stuff sticks out as a snapshot and based on a household survey. | |
| |
| YouGov latest opinion poll this morning on 19:36 - May 10 with 245 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
The IFS data and the table you initially posted both support my position. As indeed does your fullfact link, just that the reduction is smaller as it only takes into account the period from 2000
Feel free to provide a measurement that doesn’t show the rate dropping during the whole period which Labour were last in government though. And even better would be one showing a progressive Labour Party performing better | |
| |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
