| 55 deaths today 19:41 - Jun 8 with 17663 views | itfcjoe |
A much better number to hear.
With all the caveats of reporting etc. |  |
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| 55 deaths today on 10:28 - Jun 9 with 5017 views | Libero |
| 55 deaths today on 22:46 - Jun 8 by blueconscience |
See my earlier posts explaining it to Libero.
And I hope you are doing well this fine evening. [Post edited 8 Jun 2020 22:48]
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You've literally explained nothing mate. |  | | |
| 55 deaths today on 10:36 - Jun 9 with 4987 views | GlasgowBlue |
| 55 deaths today on 10:24 - Jun 9 by Libero |
I'm still waiting for something to accurately illustrate your claim.
It's coming across like you don't really understand any of the data you're reading outside of isolation, yet you're splicing it here there and everywhere, taking 4 + 4 and getting 9. |
I don’t have a dog in this fight but am I missing something here?
He stated that some of the deaths being reported now are people who died in April. You challenged him to produce some evidence for this and he quoted NHS England as saying...
“ NHS England announced 115 new deaths of people who tested positive for Covid-19, bringing the total number of confirmed reported deaths in hospitals in England to 27,159.
Of the new deaths announced on Thursday, 24 had occurred on June 3, 49 on June 2 while nine patients who had test positive for Covid-19 on June 1.
The figures also show 25 of the new deaths took place in May, seven occurred in April, and the remaining one death took place on March 20”
I thought this was common knowledge that there is a massive lag in the reporting of deaths?
Also re your spike in infections in Southend after the May bank holiday. The link shows an increase of 5 infections more than the previous month in a population of 175000 people. [Post edited 9 Jun 2020 10:40]
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| 55 deaths today on 11:05 - Jun 9 with 4966 views | Libero |
| 55 deaths today on 10:36 - Jun 9 by GlasgowBlue |
I don’t have a dog in this fight but am I missing something here?
He stated that some of the deaths being reported now are people who died in April. You challenged him to produce some evidence for this and he quoted NHS England as saying...
“ NHS England announced 115 new deaths of people who tested positive for Covid-19, bringing the total number of confirmed reported deaths in hospitals in England to 27,159.
Of the new deaths announced on Thursday, 24 had occurred on June 3, 49 on June 2 while nine patients who had test positive for Covid-19 on June 1.
The figures also show 25 of the new deaths took place in May, seven occurred in April, and the remaining one death took place on March 20”
I thought this was common knowledge that there is a massive lag in the reporting of deaths?
Also re your spike in infections in Southend after the May bank holiday. The link shows an increase of 5 infections more than the previous month in a population of 175000 people. [Post edited 9 Jun 2020 10:40]
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Yes, the context that this was being shared under is that he believes that the government are exaggerating the figures.
I see no evidence of this.
The most pertinent statement in your post is...
"I thought this was common knowledge that there is a massive lag in the reporting of deaths?" - yes, me too apprently the fact they're not reported within a certain time frame is evidence of the government fudging the figures for nonferrous reasons.
RE: my link, I actually just Googled the first news story I could about it and linked it without reading it.
I've a family member who usually works in Southend hospital as a nurse treating cancer patients, she'd told us about how the spike effected her workplace and role.
She had been moved back to working with cancer patients after supporting covid-19 patients but was again asked to support patients with covid after the spike.
Although she didn't give figures she stated that a direct link had been drawn in the hospital between people's actions and the increase amount of people they were having to treat.
Again, I posted this to debunk what came across as a way of belittling the danger and validity of the virus. [Post edited 9 Jun 2020 11:09]
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| 55 deaths today on 11:59 - Jun 9 with 4920 views | Herbivore |
| 55 deaths today on 10:10 - Jun 9 by Bluesquid |
Yep it's serious alright.
"Covid-19 only accounts for 10,000 of the 30,000 excess deaths"
"A new report published in the British Medical Journal titled Covid-19: “Staggering number” of extra deaths in community is not explained by covid-19″ has suggested that quarantine measures in the United Kingdom as a result of the new coronavirus may have already killed more UK seniors than the coronavirus has during the months of April and May."
"According to the data, Covid-19 only accounts for 10,000 of the 30,000 excess deaths that have been recorded in senior care facilities during the height of the pandemic. The article suggests and also quotes British Health officials stating that these unexplained deaths may have occurred because Quarantine measures have prevented seniors from accessing the health care that they need."
https://www.collective-evolution.com/2020/05/19/new-report-suggests-quarantine-m |
Only 10k had Covid on the death certificate. That doesn't mean that only 10k were as a result of Covid. The BMJ article acknowledges the issue of underreporting whilst also suggesting that some, we don't know how many, may have died through not accessing hospital treatment. It's one analysis that raises some interesting points but doesn't suggest what you think it suggests. |  |
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| 55 deaths today on 12:06 - Jun 9 with 4902 views | Bluesquid |
| 55 deaths today on 11:59 - Jun 9 by Herbivore |
Only 10k had Covid on the death certificate. That doesn't mean that only 10k were as a result of Covid. The BMJ article acknowledges the issue of underreporting whilst also suggesting that some, we don't know how many, may have died through not accessing hospital treatment. It's one analysis that raises some interesting points but doesn't suggest what you think it suggests. |
From the report - "Only a third of the excess deaths seen in the community in England and Wales can be explained by covid-19, new data have shown."
You really can't spin that, it really does mean that only a third of the excess deaths can be explained by Covid-19. [Post edited 9 Jun 2020 12:33]
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| 55 deaths today on 12:07 - Jun 9 with 4913 views | blueconscience |
| 55 deaths today on 10:24 - Jun 9 by Libero |
I'm still waiting for something to accurately illustrate your claim.
It's coming across like you don't really understand any of the data you're reading outside of isolation, yet you're splicing it here there and everywhere, taking 4 + 4 and getting 9. |
It clearly says seven of the 115 deaths on June 4th numbers were from April. 25 from May, and so on, and so on.... [Post edited 9 Jun 2020 12:08]
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| 55 deaths today on 12:09 - Jun 9 with 4909 views | Libero |
| 55 deaths today on 12:07 - Jun 9 by blueconscience |
It clearly says seven of the 115 deaths on June 4th numbers were from April. 25 from May, and so on, and so on.... [Post edited 9 Jun 2020 12:08]
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Yes, however that doesn't mean that the Government are fiddling with the figures, you're just continually exposing your lack of understanding.
I don't have the patience for you that I had yesterday, I'm sorry to say. [Post edited 9 Jun 2020 12:10]
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| 55 deaths today on 12:11 - Jun 9 with 4903 views | blueconscience |
| 55 deaths today on 12:09 - Jun 9 by Libero |
Yes, however that doesn't mean that the Government are fiddling with the figures, you're just continually exposing your lack of understanding.
I don't have the patience for you that I had yesterday, I'm sorry to say. [Post edited 9 Jun 2020 12:10]
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But you were more concerned about where I was getting these April numbers from, not the fudging, So I answered your doubt/query.
Anyhow enjoy the rest of your week.. [Post edited 9 Jun 2020 12:13]
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| 55 deaths today on 12:18 - Jun 9 with 4891 views | Libero |
| 55 deaths today on 12:11 - Jun 9 by blueconscience |
But you were more concerned about where I was getting these April numbers from, not the fudging, So I answered your doubt/query.
Anyhow enjoy the rest of your week.. [Post edited 9 Jun 2020 12:13]
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One of my roles at work currently is recording the Covid-19 data which goes to SCC and is then collated and passed on to the Government, it's a logistical nightmare and is very boring. No one was prepared for this and everyone spent the first three weeks ironing out issues with data capture, spreadsheets, recording practises, etc.
If you want to believe that the way the figures are being recorded is a result of government tampering in order to hype up the virus and over state it's danger and not just logistical issues then go for it mate.
You absolute winner. | | | |
| 55 deaths today on 12:32 - Jun 9 with 4875 views | blueconscience |
| 55 deaths today on 12:18 - Jun 9 by Libero |
One of my roles at work currently is recording the Covid-19 data which goes to SCC and is then collated and passed on to the Government, it's a logistical nightmare and is very boring. No one was prepared for this and everyone spent the first three weeks ironing out issues with data capture, spreadsheets, recording practises, etc.
If you want to believe that the way the figures are being recorded is a result of government tampering in order to hype up the virus and over state it's danger and not just logistical issues then go for it mate.
You absolute winner. |
I just think they should be added to their respective dates and not added to the latest date, to show the true pattern of deaths.
But, that’s it, just my opinion. Like I say enjoy the rest of your week and good luck with your reporting!!! | |
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| 55 deaths today on 12:34 - Jun 9 with 4863 views | Libero |
| 55 deaths today on 12:32 - Jun 9 by blueconscience |
I just think they should be added to their respective dates and not added to the latest date, to show the true pattern of deaths.
But, that’s it, just my opinion. Like I say enjoy the rest of your week and good luck with your reporting!!! |
Yeah, I get it. Unfortunately you really do not have the grasp on this that you think you do. Sorry. [Post edited 9 Jun 2020 12:35]
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| 55 deaths today on 12:37 - Jun 9 with 4854 views | Herbivore |
| 55 deaths today on 12:06 - Jun 9 by Bluesquid |
From the report - "Only a third of the excess deaths seen in the community in England and Wales can be explained by covid-19, new data have shown."
You really can't spin that, it really does mean that only a third of the excess deaths can be explained by Covid-19. [Post edited 9 Jun 2020 12:33]
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It also says this in the report: "Of those 30 000, only 10,000 have had covid-19 specified on the death certificate. While Spiegelhalter acknowledged that some of these “excess deaths” might be the result of underdiagnosis..."
So underdiagnosis is acknowledged as an issue and we don't really know how much of an issue, especially with the lack of testing in community settings for most of the pandemic. Of course there will be non Covid deaths that have happened because of lockdown, that's unavoidable and I don't think anyone ever suggested there wouldn't be consequences to locking down. That said, these figures aren't evidence that lockdown is worse than not locking down. Not remotely.
You should try reading behind a headline that grabs hold of your bias and gives it a big squeeze. | |
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| 55 deaths today on 12:39 - Jun 9 with 4838 views | blueconscience |
| 55 deaths today on 12:34 - Jun 9 by Libero |
Yeah, I get it. Unfortunately you really do not have the grasp on this that you think you do. Sorry. [Post edited 9 Jun 2020 12:35]
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True, But I only use MatPlotLib, Seaborn, Power BI and various other data analysis and reporting tools, so probably thinking too simplistically. | |
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| 55 deaths today on 12:41 - Jun 9 with 4831 views | jeera |
| 55 deaths today on 12:32 - Jun 9 by blueconscience |
I just think they should be added to their respective dates and not added to the latest date, to show the true pattern of deaths.
But, that’s it, just my opinion. Like I say enjoy the rest of your week and good luck with your reporting!!! |
When there's a delay in diagnosis post death, are you suggesting the figures should be back-dated rather than added to the latest figures as the results come through? |  |
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| 55 deaths today on 12:42 - Jun 9 with 4831 views | Libero |
| 55 deaths today on 12:39 - Jun 9 by blueconscience |
True, But I only use MatPlotLib, Seaborn, Power BI and various other data analysis and reporting tools, so probably thinking too simplistically. |
Weird flex. | | | |
| 55 deaths today on 12:45 - Jun 9 with 4812 views | Libero |
| 55 deaths today on 12:41 - Jun 9 by jeera |
When there's a delay in diagnosis post death, are you suggesting the figures should be back-dated rather than added to the latest figures as the results come through? |
Yep, that's what he's saying, and you can bet if they did use that model then he'd be claiming that they're trying to "hide" the data. | | | |
| 55 deaths today on 12:48 - Jun 9 with 4796 views | Bluesquid |
| 55 deaths today on 12:37 - Jun 9 by Herbivore |
It also says this in the report: "Of those 30 000, only 10,000 have had covid-19 specified on the death certificate. While Spiegelhalter acknowledged that some of these “excess deaths” might be the result of underdiagnosis..."
So underdiagnosis is acknowledged as an issue and we don't really know how much of an issue, especially with the lack of testing in community settings for most of the pandemic. Of course there will be non Covid deaths that have happened because of lockdown, that's unavoidable and I don't think anyone ever suggested there wouldn't be consequences to locking down. That said, these figures aren't evidence that lockdown is worse than not locking down. Not remotely.
You should try reading behind a headline that grabs hold of your bias and gives it a big squeeze. |
Now give this a big squeeze -
"The huge number of unexplained extra deaths in homes and care homes is extraordinary. When we look back . . . this rise in non-covid extra deaths outside the hospital is something I hope will be given really severe attention.”
One more time, that's NON-COVID EXTRA DEATHS. | | | |
| 55 deaths today on 12:50 - Jun 9 with 4783 views | jeera |
| 55 deaths today on 12:45 - Jun 9 by Libero |
Yep, that's what he's saying, and you can bet if they did use that model then he'd be claiming that they're trying to "hide" the data. |
Well then yes, the numbers would be effectively hidden away wouldn't they?
At least to the general public who aren't going to spend time tracking back through data looking for discrepancies.
The casualties are the same and the few added here and there aren't going to make a huge difference to any trends.
I am aware this will have been covered many times but can't be bothered to go back and read right through. More like, I am just writing this down for my own clarification so I understand the angle here. | |
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| 55 deaths today on 12:52 - Jun 9 with 4773 views | Libero |
| 55 deaths today on 12:50 - Jun 9 by jeera |
Well then yes, the numbers would be effectively hidden away wouldn't they?
At least to the general public who aren't going to spend time tracking back through data looking for discrepancies.
The casualties are the same and the few added here and there aren't going to make a huge difference to any trends.
I am aware this will have been covered many times but can't be bothered to go back and read right through. More like, I am just writing this down for my own clarification so I understand the angle here. |
Essentially he's trying (and failing) to link data to his belief that the government are exaggerating the spread of and deadly nature of Covid-19. [Post edited 9 Jun 2020 12:52]
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| 55 deaths today on 12:53 - Jun 9 with 4770 views | linhdi |
| 55 deaths today on 12:48 - Jun 9 by Bluesquid |
Now give this a big squeeze -
"The huge number of unexplained extra deaths in homes and care homes is extraordinary. When we look back . . . this rise in non-covid extra deaths outside the hospital is something I hope will be given really severe attention.”
One more time, that's NON-COVID EXTRA DEATHS. |
And non-covid deaths include undiagnosed deaths at home due to covid, plus many thousands of dementia people in care homes (who are unable to articulate their symptoms even under interrogation). That is per a highly useful ONS report last weekend. | | | |
| 55 deaths today on 12:54 - Jun 9 with 4758 views | Libero |
| 55 deaths today on 12:53 - Jun 9 by linhdi |
And non-covid deaths include undiagnosed deaths at home due to covid, plus many thousands of dementia people in care homes (who are unable to articulate their symptoms even under interrogation). That is per a highly useful ONS report last weekend. |
Correct, not that I think that will bother the detracting voices in this thread. | | | |
| 55 deaths today on 12:55 - Jun 9 with 4754 views | jeera |
| 55 deaths today on 12:52 - Jun 9 by Libero |
Essentially he's trying (and failing) to link data to his belief that the government are exaggerating the spread of and deadly nature of Covid-19. [Post edited 9 Jun 2020 12:52]
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Why are there people wanting to believe the entire planet has made deliberate attempts to crash their respective economies in an attempt to blindside their populations?
Too many of these teenage Hunger Games/Divergent type films maybe. | |
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| 55 deaths today on 12:56 - Jun 9 with 4751 views | Libero |
| 55 deaths today on 12:55 - Jun 9 by jeera |
Why are there people wanting to believe the entire planet has made deliberate attempts to crash their respective economies in an attempt to blindside their populations?
Too many of these teenage Hunger Games/Divergent type films maybe. |
See Herbivore's post on page 3.
"What is also clear is how people seek to wilfully misinterpret and misrepresent evidence, or perhaps it's not wilful and they're just a bit thick. Having read the whole thread I think it's probably the latter, certainly in relation to a couple of the more vocal posters. The state of it." [Post edited 9 Jun 2020 12:58]
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