| RFU reviewing the singing of Swing Low, Sweet Chariot on 09:55 - Jun 19 with 1412 views | Coastalblue |
| RFU reviewing the singing of Swing Low, Sweet Chariot on 09:47 - Jun 19 by JakeITFC |
You (and the guy taking about blues above) must realise this is different to just covering a song or singing in the style of black musicians?
Throw in the context of it being sung by white rugby fans when a black player did well and it’s on very sketchy ground. |
That context is a load of old bull though, somebody's made that up at some point. It was being sung long before Oti played, if not on the same scale, it's like the story that gets repeated that it was originally sung for Martin 'Chariots' Offiah, again it goes back further than that.
If it upsets people, people who have a right to be upset by it then by all means attempt to stop it. |  |
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| RFU reviewing the singing of Swing Low, Sweet Chariot on 09:56 - Jun 19 with 1397 views | lowhouseblue |
| RFU reviewing the singing of Swing Low, Sweet Chariot on 09:47 - Jun 19 by JakeITFC |
You (and the guy taking about blues above) must realise this is different to just covering a song or singing in the style of black musicians?
Throw in the context of it being sung by white rugby fans when a black player did well and it’s on very sketchy ground. |
it is something that over 150 years has crossed cultures. music does that and it's impossible to stop. culture is a mish-mash of influences many of them borrowed. that is an entirely good thing. realising where the various bits of our culture come from is in turn a very good thing. it promotes understanding and appreciation. whether that's the roots of the blues or the history of what rugby fans sing. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| RFU reviewing the singing of Swing Low, Sweet Chariot on 09:57 - Jun 19 with 1405 views | JakeITFC |
| RFU reviewing the singing of Swing Low, Sweet Chariot on 09:54 - Jun 19 by GlasgowBlue |
Rock and roll was built on white singers appropriating songs recorded previously by black singer/songwriters, singing it in the style of a black singer and not paying one penny to the original artist.
Should we wipe rock and roll off the history books?
Led Zeplin we’re still doing it in the 70’s. Rod Stewart’s record label in the states tried to keep his image off the cover of his earliest work so black stations would play him thinking he was black. [Post edited 19 Jun 2020 9:55]
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Can you not read? You’re literally continuing an argument that this has nothing to do with. |  | | |
| RFU reviewing the singing of Swing Low, Sweet Chariot on 09:57 - Jun 19 with 1400 views | sparks |
| RFU reviewing the singing of Swing Low, Sweet Chariot on 09:47 - Jun 19 by JakeITFC |
You (and the guy taking about blues above) must realise this is different to just covering a song or singing in the style of black musicians?
Throw in the context of it being sung by white rugby fans when a black player did well and it’s on very sketchy ground. |
But why? We are at real risk of arriving at a position where we say "That is something produced by / connected to a period of history / a race- therefore its racist to use it." Surely there has to be a rather more nuanced examination?
I havent looked in any detail at this point, at its origins. I have little doubt (given my knowledge of songs of that era and their lyrics) that the references to the river of Jordan and the central premise of a chariot taking the singer home are likely to have been written with conscious dual meaning- i.e. the religous and the freedom connotations.
But why is it racist to borrow a distincitve tune for something else? Especially given that it has been firmly established in that new settting for a long time. We are not, seemingly, worried about offending religous types by borrowing it. (Same goes for When the Saints, among others). What is actually offensive?
I watched Noel Plum on youtube dealing with similar issues the other day (specifically the "banned" comedies)- and agree with a lot of what he has to say on the subject. |  |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| RFU reviewing the singing of Swing Low, Sweet Chariot on 10:03 - Jun 19 with 1381 views | sparks |
| RFU reviewing the singing of Swing Low, Sweet Chariot on 09:50 - Jun 19 by JakeITFC |
Your last paragraph is just it.
I would hope, as with a lot of these things, that people would think twice about the meaning of the song when they hear it and make an informed decision as to whether they want to carry on singing it. I’d also suggest the RFU’s position on English rugby owning it is a bit troublesome. |
Do we ban When the Saints because it might offend christians that it has been appropriated? | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| RFU reviewing the singing of Swing Low, Sweet Chariot on 10:03 - Jun 19 with 1380 views | JakeITFC |
| RFU reviewing the singing of Swing Low, Sweet Chariot on 09:57 - Jun 19 by sparks |
But why? We are at real risk of arriving at a position where we say "That is something produced by / connected to a period of history / a race- therefore its racist to use it." Surely there has to be a rather more nuanced examination?
I havent looked in any detail at this point, at its origins. I have little doubt (given my knowledge of songs of that era and their lyrics) that the references to the river of Jordan and the central premise of a chariot taking the singer home are likely to have been written with conscious dual meaning- i.e. the religous and the freedom connotations.
But why is it racist to borrow a distincitve tune for something else? Especially given that it has been firmly established in that new settting for a long time. We are not, seemingly, worried about offending religous types by borrowing it. (Same goes for When the Saints, among others). What is actually offensive?
I watched Noel Plum on youtube dealing with similar issues the other day (specifically the "banned" comedies)- and agree with a lot of what he has to say on the subject. |
It’s not racist to sing it I don’t think - it’s just insensitive to the context in which it is written. However there were apparent racist undertones in some of the origin stories associated with rugby fans picking it up.
I also don’t think the singing of any songs should be banned, as that is not helpful to anybody. Debate like this is good, it adds context and brings visibility to issues that otherwise wouldn’t exist. | | | |
| RFU reviewing the singing of Swing Low, Sweet Chariot on 10:08 - Jun 19 with 1364 views | GlasgowBlue |
| RFU reviewing the singing of Swing Low, Sweet Chariot on 10:03 - Jun 19 by sparks |
Do we ban When the Saints because it might offend christians that it has been appropriated? |
Hark now hear the angels sing, the Norwich ran away. [Post edited 19 Jun 2020 10:09]
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| RFU reviewing the singing of Swing Low, Sweet Chariot on 10:10 - Jun 19 with 1360 views | sparks |
| RFU reviewing the singing of Swing Low, Sweet Chariot on 10:08 - Jun 19 by GlasgowBlue |
Hark now hear the angels sing, the Norwich ran away. [Post edited 19 Jun 2020 10:09]
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It is a different context- because of the history. But its an interesting thought experiment. Is the act of appropriating it offensive per se?
I would say not. | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
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| RFU reviewing the singing of Swing Low, Sweet Chariot on 10:15 - Jun 19 with 1339 views | JakeITFC |
| RFU reviewing the singing of Swing Low, Sweet Chariot on 10:08 - Jun 19 by GlasgowBlue |
Hark now hear the angels sing, the Norwich ran away. [Post edited 19 Jun 2020 10:09]
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If you can’t tell the difference between a Christmas hymn and a song with deep rooted context in slavery then I think you’re just being obtuse.
A better analogy would be if Ipswich sung songs based on the words of Anne Frank. | | | |
| RFU reviewing the singing of Swing Low, Sweet Chariot on 10:23 - Jun 19 with 1321 views | Darth_Koont |
| RFU reviewing the singing of Swing Low, Sweet Chariot on 09:55 - Jun 19 by Coastalblue |
That context is a load of old bull though, somebody's made that up at some point. It was being sung long before Oti played, if not on the same scale, it's like the story that gets repeated that it was originally sung for Martin 'Chariots' Offiah, again it goes back further than that.
If it upsets people, people who have a right to be upset by it then by all means attempt to stop it. |
Yes, I'd never heard that interpretation re: black players playing well. That seems a stretch.
Funnily enough, I was at that England Ireland game and it started from a small group. If it was some veiled racist reference then it wouldn't have been picked up by the rest of the crowd most of whom would have no idea of its origin, but perhaps had heard it as a drinking song.
I think also that this is a religious song written in the time around slavery rather than a song explicitly about slavery. I'm struggling to see what is being appropriated or abused here. |  |
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| RFU reviewing the singing of Swing Low, Sweet Chariot on 10:24 - Jun 19 with 1320 views | lowhouseblue |
| RFU reviewing the singing of Swing Low, Sweet Chariot on 10:15 - Jun 19 by JakeITFC |
If you can’t tell the difference between a Christmas hymn and a song with deep rooted context in slavery then I think you’re just being obtuse.
A better analogy would be if Ipswich sung songs based on the words of Anne Frank. |
the great thing about music is that it can transcend someone's circumstances. it can be an uplifting expression of the human spirit that moves past a place or time and has a universal resonance. it's why music hops across cultures. the words of swing low achieve that - they move beyond the immediate and the particular. which means your analogy with anne frank really misses the point.
Swing low, sweet chariot
Coming for to carry me home
Swing low, sweet chariot
Coming for to carry me home
I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
(Coming for to carry me home)
A band of angels coming after me
(Coming for to carry me home)
If you get there before I do
(Coming for to carry me home)
Tell all of my friends, that I'm coming there too
(Coming for to carry me home) | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| RFU reviewing the singing of Swing Low, Sweet Chariot on 10:24 - Jun 19 with 1324 views | GlasgowBlue |
| RFU reviewing the singing of Swing Low, Sweet Chariot on 10:10 - Jun 19 by sparks |
It is a different context- because of the history. But its an interesting thought experiment. Is the act of appropriating it offensive per se?
I would say not. |
Speaking Of Swing Low Sweet Chariot, the blues and cultural appropriation it’s pretty ironic that Eric Clapton had a hit with SLSC just a few months before making the following comments in stage.
“Do we have any foreigners in the audience tonight? If so, please put up your hands … So where are you? Well wherever you all are, I think you should all just leave. Not just leave the hall, leave our country … I don’t want you here, in the room or in my country. Listen to me, man! I think we should send them all back. Stop Britain from becoming a black colony. Get the foreigners out. Get the wogs out. Get the coons out. Keep Britain white … The black wogs and coons and Arabs and f*cking Jamaicans don’t belong here, we don’t want them here. This is England, this is a white country, we don’t want any black wogs and coons living here. We need to make clear to them they are not welcome. England is for white people, man … This is Great Britain, a white country, what is happening to us, for f*ck’s sake? … Throw the wogs out! Keep Britain white!”
This is a man who built a career in black music. | |
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| RFU reviewing the singing of Swing Low, Sweet Chariot on 10:26 - Jun 19 with 1320 views | sparks |
| RFU reviewing the singing of Swing Low, Sweet Chariot on 10:24 - Jun 19 by GlasgowBlue |
Speaking Of Swing Low Sweet Chariot, the blues and cultural appropriation it’s pretty ironic that Eric Clapton had a hit with SLSC just a few months before making the following comments in stage.
“Do we have any foreigners in the audience tonight? If so, please put up your hands … So where are you? Well wherever you all are, I think you should all just leave. Not just leave the hall, leave our country … I don’t want you here, in the room or in my country. Listen to me, man! I think we should send them all back. Stop Britain from becoming a black colony. Get the foreigners out. Get the wogs out. Get the coons out. Keep Britain white … The black wogs and coons and Arabs and f*cking Jamaicans don’t belong here, we don’t want them here. This is England, this is a white country, we don’t want any black wogs and coons living here. We need to make clear to them they are not welcome. England is for white people, man … This is Great Britain, a white country, what is happening to us, for f*ck’s sake? … Throw the wogs out! Keep Britain white!”
This is a man who built a career in black music. |
I have never heard of that. Is there evidence of it?
Not that I am a fan of Clapton anyway. | |
| The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
(Sir Terry Pratchett) | | Poll: | Is Fred drunk this morning? |
| |
| RFU reviewing the singing of Swing Low, Sweet Chariot on 10:30 - Jun 19 with 1308 views | JakeITFC |
| RFU reviewing the singing of Swing Low, Sweet Chariot on 10:23 - Jun 19 by Darth_Koont |
Yes, I'd never heard that interpretation re: black players playing well. That seems a stretch.
Funnily enough, I was at that England Ireland game and it started from a small group. If it was some veiled racist reference then it wouldn't have been picked up by the rest of the crowd most of whom would have no idea of its origin, but perhaps had heard it as a drinking song.
I think also that this is a religious song written in the time around slavery rather than a song explicitly about slavery. I'm struggling to see what is being appropriated or abused here. |
Read the NYT article posted in this thread for that context (including quotes from the secretary of English rugby at the time confirming it). | | | |
| RFU reviewing the singing of Swing Low, Sweet Chariot on 10:30 - Jun 19 with 1305 views | GlasgowBlue |
| RFU reviewing the singing of Swing Low, Sweet Chariot on 10:26 - Jun 19 by sparks |
I have never heard of that. Is there evidence of it?
Not that I am a fan of Clapton anyway. |
Yeah. Rock Against Racism came out if that rant which has since been put down to being under the influence of heavy drugs.
Completely off piste from the op but it came back to me when seeing SLSC being mentioned. | |
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| RFU reviewing the singing of Swing Low, Sweet Chariot on 10:31 - Jun 19 with 1299 views | JakeITFC |
| RFU reviewing the singing of Swing Low, Sweet Chariot on 10:23 - Jun 19 by Darth_Koont |
Yes, I'd never heard that interpretation re: black players playing well. That seems a stretch.
Funnily enough, I was at that England Ireland game and it started from a small group. If it was some veiled racist reference then it wouldn't have been picked up by the rest of the crowd most of whom would have no idea of its origin, but perhaps had heard it as a drinking song.
I think also that this is a religious song written in the time around slavery rather than a song explicitly about slavery. I'm struggling to see what is being appropriated or abused here. |
Oh and it’s connotations to slavery are fairly well known - there is no getting away from that. | | | |
| RFU reviewing the singing of Swing Low, Sweet Chariot on 10:38 - Jun 19 with 1283 views | Darth_Koont |
| RFU reviewing the singing of Swing Low, Sweet Chariot on 10:30 - Jun 19 by JakeITFC |
Read the NYT article posted in this thread for that context (including quotes from the secretary of English rugby at the time confirming it). |
Yes, I read that but not sure the RFU secretary even knew it was a drinking song. Since then, it's never been sung for black players playing well or talked about like that so seems a stretch.
I'm not saying that some people weren't making an indirect racist point but the usage of it before and after didn't have anything to do with race. | |
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| RFU reviewing the singing of Swing Low, Sweet Chariot on 10:39 - Jun 19 with 1281 views | giant_stow |
| RFU reviewing the singing of Swing Low, Sweet Chariot on 10:24 - Jun 19 by lowhouseblue |
the great thing about music is that it can transcend someone's circumstances. it can be an uplifting expression of the human spirit that moves past a place or time and has a universal resonance. it's why music hops across cultures. the words of swing low achieve that - they move beyond the immediate and the particular. which means your analogy with anne frank really misses the point.
Swing low, sweet chariot
Coming for to carry me home
Swing low, sweet chariot
Coming for to carry me home
I looked over Jordan, and what did I see?
(Coming for to carry me home)
A band of angels coming after me
(Coming for to carry me home)
If you get there before I do
(Coming for to carry me home)
Tell all of my friends, that I'm coming there too
(Coming for to carry me home) |
From my position of ignorance, this song weems more likely to unite people than divide them. |  |
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| RFU reviewing the singing of Swing Low, Sweet Chariot on 10:40 - Jun 19 with 1274 views | JakeITFC |
| RFU reviewing the singing of Swing Low, Sweet Chariot on 10:38 - Jun 19 by Darth_Koont |
Yes, I read that but not sure the RFU secretary even knew it was a drinking song. Since then, it's never been sung for black players playing well or talked about like that so seems a stretch.
I'm not saying that some people weren't making an indirect racist point but the usage of it before and after didn't have anything to do with race. |
Either way it’s a mildly relevant aside to the main point. | | | |
| RFU reviewing the singing of Swing Low, Sweet Chariot on 10:44 - Jun 19 with 1265 views | GlasgowBlue |
| RFU reviewing the singing of Swing Low, Sweet Chariot on 10:39 - Jun 19 by giant_stow |
From my position of ignorance, this song weems more likely to unite people than divide them. |
Indeed. As I said yesterday these incidences are nothing but window dressing that completely deflects from dealing with real Institutional racism throughout society.
But it make people feel good to think they are doing something against racism when in fact they contributing to the division rather than binging people together. | |
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| RFU reviewing the singing of Swing Low, Sweet Chariot on 10:51 - Jun 19 with 1226 views | lowhouseblue |
| RFU reviewing the singing of Swing Low, Sweet Chariot on 10:39 - Jun 19 by giant_stow |
From my position of ignorance, this song weems more likely to unite people than divide them. |
the thing that amazes me about all sorts of music - when you look back at its roots and how it has been passed on - is it's ability to unite people across time. that something that expressed the soul of someone 200 years ago can have that exact same impact on someone completely different in an utterly different time is incredible. that emotional connection with people long dead and with unimaginable lives is a very powerful thing. the universality of music is why we should steal it from other cultures whenever we get the chance and they should equally nick ours. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| RFU reviewing the singing of Swing Low, Sweet Chariot on 10:53 - Jun 19 with 1218 views | giant_stow |
| RFU reviewing the singing of Swing Low, Sweet Chariot on 10:51 - Jun 19 by lowhouseblue |
the thing that amazes me about all sorts of music - when you look back at its roots and how it has been passed on - is it's ability to unite people across time. that something that expressed the soul of someone 200 years ago can have that exact same impact on someone completely different in an utterly different time is incredible. that emotional connection with people long dead and with unimaginable lives is a very powerful thing. the universality of music is why we should steal it from other cultures whenever we get the chance and they should equally nick ours. |
[hits up vote repeatedly]
Edit: [Post edited 19 Jun 2020 10:54]
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| RFU reviewing the singing of Swing Low, Sweet Chariot on 10:59 - Jun 19 with 1197 views | JakeITFC |
| RFU reviewing the singing of Swing Low, Sweet Chariot on 10:44 - Jun 19 by GlasgowBlue |
Indeed. As I said yesterday these incidences are nothing but window dressing that completely deflects from dealing with real Institutional racism throughout society.
But it make people feel good to think they are doing something against racism when in fact they contributing to the division rather than binging people together. |
The problem is that this is wrong, like it was when you tried to make this point on the statue thread the other day.
There absolutely should be division between people who think that there isn’t a systemic racism problem in this country and those that do, because that’s the only way we solve it. This issue of a song at rugby is a tiny part of how we potentially fix it, but a part of it is all the same. Learn about the history, read books and articles and don’t just do things because they’ve been done for a long time in this country. Don’t just turn your nose up at people trying to do better, because then you are part of the problem. | | | |
| RFU reviewing the singing of Swing Low, Sweet Chariot on 11:13 - Jun 19 with 1166 views | lowhouseblue |
| RFU reviewing the singing of Swing Low, Sweet Chariot on 10:59 - Jun 19 by JakeITFC |
The problem is that this is wrong, like it was when you tried to make this point on the statue thread the other day.
There absolutely should be division between people who think that there isn’t a systemic racism problem in this country and those that do, because that’s the only way we solve it. This issue of a song at rugby is a tiny part of how we potentially fix it, but a part of it is all the same. Learn about the history, read books and articles and don’t just do things because they’ve been done for a long time in this country. Don’t just turn your nose up at people trying to do better, because then you are part of the problem. |
you are trying to create an entirely false dichotomy. i don't see anything to suggest that anyone on this thread denies the problem with racism in this country. but racism and socio-economic inequality in this country has nothing to do with people singing swing low sweet chariot.
and do you realise that people can 'learn about the history, read books and articles' and still have different views to you? perhaps they even read more widely than you. it's very arrogant to assume that people only have a different view to you because they are uneducated. and saying people who have a different view to you are 'part of the problem' is very blinkered and intolerant. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| RFU reviewing the singing of Swing Low, Sweet Chariot on 11:13 - Jun 19 with 1163 views | giant_stow |
| RFU reviewing the singing of Swing Low, Sweet Chariot on 10:59 - Jun 19 by JakeITFC |
The problem is that this is wrong, like it was when you tried to make this point on the statue thread the other day.
There absolutely should be division between people who think that there isn’t a systemic racism problem in this country and those that do, because that’s the only way we solve it. This issue of a song at rugby is a tiny part of how we potentially fix it, but a part of it is all the same. Learn about the history, read books and articles and don’t just do things because they’ve been done for a long time in this country. Don’t just turn your nose up at people trying to do better, because then you are part of the problem. |
While I understand and even respect your hard-core uncompromising approach, I do think the people who need to be reached most will tend to react better to a more gentlly-influencing tack. | |
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