| Top 10 Political Theorists 22:27 - Jun 19 with 3324 views | Kropotkin123 |
So there was a top 10 Political leaders the other day and I found it interesting to read who other people found to be the greatest - particularly when reason are given.
So I thought I'd start one for theorists. Who has inspired you? What was it that captured your imagination? Why do they hold such importance to you?
Pyotr Kropotkin - Unsurprisingly Kropotkin is top of my list. Dubbed the Anarchist prince, he gave up his royal title at the early age of 12, setting a president of practicing what he preached.
He was fiercely academic, spanning many disciplines. Inspired by Darwin, he wrote Mutual Aid the articulately argued that cooperation, not competition, led to the greatest success in nature. Those that could cooperate were greatest in number. Be it insect or mammal, carnivore or herbivore, those that cooperated were better off.
Cooperation is left wing, competition is right wing. This book underpins why I favour cooperation over competition, why I favour left over right.
He also wrote The Conquest of Bread, which was another hugely influential book for me. It stripped politics right down to the basics. As Norman Borlaug puts it "Without food... all other components of social justice are meaningless.
Ludwig von Rochau - I'm sure we all have people who have influenced us so much, yet we've never picked up their works. It was actually learning about Otto van Bismarck and his unification of Prussia on Realpolitik theory.
It was very much the catalyst to challenge my viewpoints and ground them in reality. Sure, I have a huge district of the state and I truly believe that humanity can exist with different and better decentralised power structures. But was is possible? If it isn't possible, then assess the best course of action to make something possible. Place your theoretical ambitions within reality.
Thomas Robert Malthus, David Ricardo and Karl Marx - I've grouped these three together because I actually read about them at the same time. I read their economic theories as part of a history of the economics of politics and it framed them all so well. It was less about right vrs left and more about these theorists approaching politics from an angle that makes a huge difference to people's lives. They were all trying to solve massive economic problems.
I feel I should note that I don't agree with Marx's solutions, but his economic evaluation of capitalism was massively important and not the source of people's disputes with him whether they are from the left or right.
Henry David Thoreau - His essay On the Duty of Civil Disobedience really resonated with me. Civil Disobedience, so scorned and loathed by the state as antithetical to democracy was actually promoted as a necessary duty to protect the state from the tyranny of those who abuse and pervert it for their own ends.
It flipped the logic of the state as this system which protects and executes the will of the people, to one that can, and often is, corrupted by those who have vested interests.
Albert Einstein - What's this guy doing on the list? He's a scientist! He also wrote an article on socialism and his 16th paragraph was eye opening. It highlighted the vulnerability of our institutions and exposed their weakness to private capital. I feel to truly understand this paragraph is to truly understand why so many eatablished democracies are in a poor state around the world.
John Stuart Mill - By the time I picked up On Liberty I had pretty established political ideas and I didn't expect this book to be so fascinating. But it really is a well-written piece.
Henri de Saint-Simon - Again, I came to him late and honestly haven't really engaged in him that much, aside from understanding his ideas. The reason why I still find room for him on my list is that he was a big building block for many of the people on my list. Without his contribution, would the others have established theirs? I'm not sure the ideologies would be as robust without him.
Ralph Waldo Emerson - My last one was a real struggle. I weighed up putting in Proudhon, Reclus, Kant and Darwin. I think Emerson's essay on Self-reliance was more striking for me at the time than the others.
So there you have it, 10 Political Theorists that have inspired me and the reasons why. I look forward to seeing others, even if you drop in one or two names. |  |
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| Top 10 Political Theorists on 08:49 - Jun 20 with 1439 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Top 10 Political Theorists on 08:47 - Jun 20 by WeWereZombies |
If we are going down the footballers who dabble in philosophy route I would suggest that Albert Camus is a better suggestion, or George Weah for a footballer who has made a name for himself in politics. |
What about Eric 'when the fishies fly above the trawler, the seaguls something or other' Cantona? Thinker or just a romantic dreamer? |  |
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| Top 10 Political Theorists on 08:51 - Jun 20 with 1431 views | Mullet |
| Top 10 Political Theorists on 22:46 - Jun 19 by Herbivore |
Marx.
Everything else is just filler (possibly bourgeois filler at that).
Genuinely, Karl Marx should be mandatory reading for all kids at high school. |
As someone who teaches Marx at high school I'd agree. But there's no way you could just give them a copy of it.
Also the Communist Manifesto is probably the most misquoted and misconstrued work on the internet which doesn't help.
There is also the argument that he's actually an economic historian above all else to contend with.
I think I'd find room for Max Weber on the list if we're putting Marx in. His corrections and rethinking of Marx are far better in my opinion especially at their simplest. |  |
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| Top 10 Political Theorists on 08:53 - Jun 20 with 1415 views | Keno |
| Top 10 Political Theorists on 08:24 - Jun 20 by WeWereZombies |
Errr, I did mention Plato. And Aristotle got a mention in another post earlier.
I cite Plato as the beginning of political theory not just because he wrote 'The Republic' (which may actually have been him putting Socrates thoughts into words because his teacher never wrote anything down) but because he used analogy so well he could be cited to have introduced the thought experiment. The idea of a cave of darkness out of which one stumbles into an outside world of light and colour is a liberating idea that illustrates the use of exploration and inquiry to flesh out our reasoning with practicality and information.
However, to go exploring and inquiring we rely on our senses and that takes us back to a couple of earlier pre-Socratic Greeks called Heraclitus and Paramenides arguing over whether all was flowing or everything was static; or forward to Descartes and Hume closing down how our brains and the bodies they reside in receive sense and then process it. Which would take us away from the narrow confines of politics and out into the setting of agendas that the apparatchiks scurry around chasing. No one has mentioned Armando Iannucci yet, but I guess he is with Swift in the satirist camp. |
Fair call, id only looked at the OP when I posted that
I mentioned Socrates partly cos of his role in Bill & Ted |  |
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| Top 10 Political Theorists on 09:03 - Jun 20 with 1408 views | Keno |
| Top 10 Political Theorists on 08:51 - Jun 20 by Mullet |
As someone who teaches Marx at high school I'd agree. But there's no way you could just give them a copy of it.
Also the Communist Manifesto is probably the most misquoted and misconstrued work on the internet which doesn't help.
There is also the argument that he's actually an economic historian above all else to contend with.
I think I'd find room for Max Weber on the list if we're putting Marx in. His corrections and rethinking of Marx are far better in my opinion especially at their simplest. |
That’s a fair comment but if you want to teach Marx shouldn’t the starting point a lesson on Utopia by Sir Thomas More? | |
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| Top 10 Political Theorists on 09:05 - Jun 20 with 1402 views | Mullet |
| Top 10 Political Theorists on 09:03 - Jun 20 by Keno |
That’s a fair comment but if you want to teach Marx shouldn’t the starting point a lesson on Utopia by Sir Thomas More? |
Only teach it as part of Sociology and at that level Marx is hard enough and really only done in a very basic manner.
The syllabus calls for loads of studies to be known which means really until you get to A-Level or degree you're not going to be able to have kids read Marx with any real depth or point to it. | |
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| Top 10 Political Theorists on 09:08 - Jun 20 with 1401 views | WeWereZombies |
| Top 10 Political Theorists on 08:53 - Jun 20 by Keno |
Fair call, id only looked at the OP when I posted that
I mentioned Socrates partly cos of his role in Bill & Ted |
Well I am sure that, as an obvious appreciator of So Crates, you will be overjoyed to know that a third Bill and Ted film is due for release.
STATION>>> |  |
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| Top 10 Political Theorists on 09:09 - Jun 20 with 1399 views | Kropotkin123 |
| Top 10 Political Theorists on 08:53 - Jun 20 by Keno |
Fair call, id only looked at the OP when I posted that
I mentioned Socrates partly cos of his role in Bill & Ted |
If it was aimed at me, the list in the OP is intended to be personal, rather than saying that they are the top 10. I imagine the majority of mine wouldn't make the cut in other people's eyes.
Whilst I've read Plato, I found his works to be too outdated to have a significant impact on shaping my own political thought.
So I'm more curious to see why people have placed value on those that they choose. For example I found Herbivore's Marx stuff to be really interesting, as it is very opinionated.
We all know of Marx, but we are getting an idea of why and to what extent Herbivore holds him in high regard. | |
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| Top 10 Political Theorists on 09:12 - Jun 20 with 1390 views | Kropotkin123 |
| Top 10 Political Theorists on 09:03 - Jun 20 by Keno |
That’s a fair comment but if you want to teach Marx shouldn’t the starting point a lesson on Utopia by Sir Thomas More? |
Great shout, I overlooked this one in my consideration. | |
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| Top 10 Political Theorists on 09:13 - Jun 20 with 1384 views | Kropotkin123 |
| Top 10 Political Theorists on 09:05 - Jun 20 by Mullet |
Only teach it as part of Sociology and at that level Marx is hard enough and really only done in a very basic manner.
The syllabus calls for loads of studies to be known which means really until you get to A-Level or degree you're not going to be able to have kids read Marx with any real depth or point to it. |
Who are the most important at that level for you? | |
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| Top 10 Political Theorists on 09:15 - Jun 20 with 1378 views | WeWereZombies |
| Top 10 Political Theorists on 09:03 - Jun 20 by Keno |
That’s a fair comment but if you want to teach Marx shouldn’t the starting point a lesson on Utopia by Sir Thomas More? |
There is no starting point, things just go around and around...
Hobbes 'Leviathan' is a much more useful tome than 'Utopia' in my opinion, but I guess that makes me a pragmatist concerned with understanding why things are the way they are rather than what I, or someone else, thinks they should be. Suppose we are heading towards William James and Charles Sanders Peirce now, and then on towards Karl Popper. | |
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| Top 10 Political Theorists on 09:16 - Jun 20 with 1377 views | Keno |
| Top 10 Political Theorists on 09:09 - Jun 20 by Kropotkin123 |
If it was aimed at me, the list in the OP is intended to be personal, rather than saying that they are the top 10. I imagine the majority of mine wouldn't make the cut in other people's eyes.
Whilst I've read Plato, I found his works to be too outdated to have a significant impact on shaping my own political thought.
So I'm more curious to see why people have placed value on those that they choose. For example I found Herbivore's Marx stuff to be really interesting, as it is very opinionated.
We all know of Marx, but we are getting an idea of why and to what extent Herbivore holds him in high regard. |
Wasn’t having a pop, sorry if it came across like that
I think there is a tendency to make Marx a figurehead of original thought whereas you could argue he brought together and codified lots of other ideas | |
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| Top 10 Political Theorists on 09:25 - Jun 20 with 1373 views | Keno |
| Top 10 Political Theorists on 09:15 - Jun 20 by WeWereZombies |
There is no starting point, things just go around and around...
Hobbes 'Leviathan' is a much more useful tome than 'Utopia' in my opinion, but I guess that makes me a pragmatist concerned with understanding why things are the way they are rather than what I, or someone else, thinks they should be. Suppose we are heading towards William James and Charles Sanders Peirce now, and then on towards Karl Popper. |
And after all the theories all the thousands of years of philosophy we end up with the likes of Trump, Johnson, Rees- Mogg & Raab!! | |
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| Top 10 Political Theorists on 09:27 - Jun 20 with 1370 views | Kropotkin123 |
| Top 10 Political Theorists on 09:16 - Jun 20 by Keno |
Wasn’t having a pop, sorry if it came across like that
I think there is a tendency to make Marx a figurehead of original thought whereas you could argue he brought together and codified lots of other ideas |
No, no, not at all, I didn't take it like that :). I just wanted to qualify the OP as encouraging subjective assessment, rather than objective.
You are right, Marx builds on a huge amount that goes before him and in many ways his work can be seen as a conversation with past political economists (Ricardo and Malthus for example) and building on far ranging foundations such as Saint-Simon and Hegel.
And you are also right that if we take things objectively, rather than subjectively, Plato would have to be in my top 10. [Post edited 20 Jun 2020 9:29]
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| Top 10 Political Theorists on 09:33 - Jun 20 with 1364 views | Keno |
| Top 10 Political Theorists on 09:27 - Jun 20 by Kropotkin123 |
No, no, not at all, I didn't take it like that :). I just wanted to qualify the OP as encouraging subjective assessment, rather than objective.
You are right, Marx builds on a huge amount that goes before him and in many ways his work can be seen as a conversation with past political economists (Ricardo and Malthus for example) and building on far ranging foundations such as Saint-Simon and Hegel.
And you are also right that if we take things objectively, rather than subjectively, Plato would have to be in my top 10. [Post edited 20 Jun 2020 9:29]
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It’s actually made for a really interesting thread, so thank you for that | |
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| Top 10 Political Theorists on 10:28 - Jun 20 with 1342 views | Kropotkin123 |
| Top 10 Political Theorists on 09:33 - Jun 20 by Keno |
It’s actually made for a really interesting thread, so thank you for that |
Thank you. I'm hoping centre-right/right orientated people will chuck in their main influences too.
When I was in Korea I knew a Trump supporting American and it was fascinating to see who he listened to (audio books).
We had an understanding not to argue, so discussing the merits of different theoretical lines was fun. | |
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| Top 10 Political Theorists on 10:35 - Jun 20 with 1324 views | Mullet |
| Top 10 Political Theorists on 09:13 - Jun 20 by Kropotkin123 |
Who are the most important at that level for you? |
Sociologically it's Durkheim because he's essentially the starting point for Sociology proper, and his methods and work are good comparisons for everything else. I've come to like him more since uni.
But politically it's Marx and then Weber. The kids struggle with the New Right but find Murray's work easier because it's so revolting. | |
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| Top 10 Political Theorists on 10:51 - Jun 20 with 1312 views | Darth_Koont |
| Top 10 Political Theorists on 09:25 - Jun 20 by Keno |
And after all the theories all the thousands of years of philosophy we end up with the likes of Trump, Johnson, Rees- Mogg & Raab!! |
They're the result of much shallower political theories. Namely how to game the electoral system. With a bit of Bannon, Cummings, Campbell etc. populist marketing thrown in.
I don't think they believe in anything beyond self-promotion - and probably some loose anti-government, survival-of-the-greediest neoliberalism.
But yeah, they're not exactly doing much for the evolution of politics or mankind. [Post edited 20 Jun 2020 10:53]
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| Top 10 Political Theorists on 11:29 - Jun 20 with 1288 views | eireblue |
Lao Tze
Zhuang Zhou
Pythagoras
Betrand Russell
I like reading Yuval Noah Harari and Ibram X. Kendi at the moment.
Maybe not your traditional political theorists, but, essentially they are writing about humans, human nature and impact on politics/society. |  | | |
| Top 10 Political Theorists on 11:59 - Jun 20 with 1265 views | Darth_Koont |
| Top 10 Political Theorists on 11:29 - Jun 20 by eireblue |
Lao Tze
Zhuang Zhou
Pythagoras
Betrand Russell
I like reading Yuval Noah Harari and Ibram X. Kendi at the moment.
Maybe not your traditional political theorists, but, essentially they are writing about humans, human nature and impact on politics/society. |
Agreed. Harari is great and I'll have to give Kendi a go.
That evolutionary biologist outlook is vital. With AI and automation let alone the environment, we're going to see change beyond what we've seen in the previous 50 years. So probably a good time to move away from the politicians who are least equipped to deal with that and will turn positives into negatives. | |
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| Top 10 Political Theorists on 12:00 - Jun 20 with 1264 views | WeWereZombies |
| Top 10 Political Theorists on 09:25 - Jun 20 by Keno |
And after all the theories all the thousands of years of philosophy we end up with the likes of Trump, Johnson, Rees- Mogg & Raab!! |
Almost gave that an uppie but remembered that I had posted about what goes around, comes around. The writing is on the wall for Trump, Bolsonaro and Boris Johnson but we are probably in for more of a wait than seems reasonable.
To address Kropotkin's appeal for theorists regarded as on the right of the political spectrum I was waiting for Glassers to post (lowhouse has already posted but in the manner of someone who tentatively waves a white flag out of a door that is slightly ajar because a champagne cork popped in an adjacent room), whilst we are waiting I will just say that I thought about Hayek and Nozick. I had to read both when I was preparing my dissertation and appreciated their thoughts but ultimately they were mainly something to propel the argument by kicking against rather than using as fuel. | |
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| Top 10 Political Theorists on 14:19 - Jun 20 with 1237 views | solemio |
I suppose Adam Smith was more of an economist cum philosopher than a political theorist, but his economic ideas have been so politically important that he probably merits a mention, although not a Top Ten rating! |  | | |
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