| Work from home if you can......again 08:25 - Sep 22 with 8296 views | solomon |
Penfold Gove just said so. |  | | |  |
| Work from home if you can......again on 11:38 - Sep 22 with 1603 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Work from home if you can......again on 10:50 - Sep 22 by DanTheMan |
How much evidence is there that people are breaking self isolation? |
A bit. The Bolton outbreak is supposed to be down to a bellend who came back from overseas, didn't quarantine and went on a pub crawl instead  .
There was an interview last week too with someone from the Rhondda who was talking about a bus trip they'd taken where people had travelled with Covid symptoms, but it was ok because they hadn't got the test results back at that point (several people on that trip have since been positively diagnosed leading to a local outbreak and lockdown)
I don't know whether these are down to stupidity or willful flaunting of the rules though. |  |
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| Work from home if you can......again on 11:40 - Sep 22 with 1597 views | Ely_Blue |
| Work from home if you can......again on 11:30 - Sep 22 by DanTheMan |
You could have used that argument literally days ago to say going into the office is perfectly safe. After all, would they have opened them up if they weren't?
Now they're saying don't work from home. Is that because they're not safe.
See the issue? |
Not sure what your point is here?
Anyone who opened up their place of work for people to return to would have done so under COVID safe conditions in the same way as schools reopening, restaurants reopening etc. Nothing has changed with anything there, unless as with other things people have become lax about following the guidelines set out.
My point was about people not self isolating or quarantining on return from foreign holidays both of which have been widely documented as being causes of the virus spreading amongst other things such as large non social distanced gatherings and house parties. |  |
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| Work from home if you can......again on 11:44 - Sep 22 with 1588 views | DanTheMan |
| Work from home if you can......again on 11:40 - Sep 22 by Ely_Blue |
Not sure what your point is here?
Anyone who opened up their place of work for people to return to would have done so under COVID safe conditions in the same way as schools reopening, restaurants reopening etc. Nothing has changed with anything there, unless as with other things people have become lax about following the guidelines set out.
My point was about people not self isolating or quarantining on return from foreign holidays both of which have been widely documented as being causes of the virus spreading amongst other things such as large non social distanced gatherings and house parties. |
"Anyone who opened up their place of work for people to return to would have done so under COVID safe conditions in the same way as schools reopening, restaurants reopening etc. Nothing has changed with anything there, unless as with other things people have become lax about following the guidelines set out."
Then why are we closing them? If they are so amazingly safe, there'd be no need, right?
My point is that you are using the Governments strategy to justify your point instead of the original data used to base that decision on.
And again you put:
"My point was about people not self isolating or quarantining on return from foreign holidays both of which have been widely documented as being causes of the virus spreading amongst other things such as large non social distanced gatherings and house parties."
But you have no actual evidence that this is the case. You put "widely documented" but these will be one or two stories rather than actual data that shows that these particular things are the reasons why the virus is spreading so much. |  |
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| Work from home if you can......again on 11:45 - Sep 22 with 1587 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Work from home if you can......again on 11:40 - Sep 22 by DanTheMan |
I think that's half the problem though, we're talking about one person doing that makes the news but I'd imagine at a country level we'd be talking about much more systemic breaking of the rules.
And honestly if our national strategy was based on the entire population following the rules to the letter then we were incredibly stupid. [Post edited 22 Sep 2020 12:14]
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Yeah true. it doesn't take many though. I haven't mixed much, so it's hard to know how people are behaving. I had one night when I was away and scoured a town for some food and a pint at the end of the day. I was quite surprised at how many people I met who thought it was all a load of rubbish and were ignoring the social distancing. I suspect may of those would happily break any lockdown rules now. I beat a fairly hasty retreat back to my hotel. | |
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| Work from home if you can......again on 11:50 - Sep 22 with 1575 views | DanTheMan |
| Work from home if you can......again on 11:45 - Sep 22 by Swansea_Blue |
Yeah true. it doesn't take many though. I haven't mixed much, so it's hard to know how people are behaving. I had one night when I was away and scoured a town for some food and a pint at the end of the day. I was quite surprised at how many people I met who thought it was all a load of rubbish and were ignoring the social distancing. I suspect may of those would happily break any lockdown rules now. I beat a fairly hasty retreat back to my hotel. |
I agree, it doesn't take many.
Which is why I think if our strategy didn't take into account human behaviour then we were asking for problems, and the reason I thought the idea of mass testing was so appealing. | |
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| Work from home if you can......again on 12:11 - Sep 22 with 1552 views | SpruceMoose |
| Work from home if you can......again on 08:56 - Sep 22 by Ely_Blue |
What annoys me is that people will jump at this and follow the governments guidance on this to the letter, because it suits them, yet when they are asked to isolate if they feel ill/have symptoms or they come back from a destination where they should quarantine that’s a different story |
Quite. Some people just follow the guidance that allows them to do what they want to do anyway and ignore the rest which prevents them from doing what they want to do. These are the idiots who would insist on having their living room light on during the Blitz because they wanted to read the paper.
Which is to say, the people who jeer and mock anyone who might possibly be considered an expert on a subject they don't like, are probably the same people who wave around 'but the government expert advice said I can!' as soon as they want to go on a pub crawl or a holiday to Greece. [Post edited 22 Sep 2020 12:22]
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| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| Work from home if you can......again on 12:18 - Sep 22 with 1538 views | Ely_Blue |
| Work from home if you can......again on 11:44 - Sep 22 by DanTheMan |
"Anyone who opened up their place of work for people to return to would have done so under COVID safe conditions in the same way as schools reopening, restaurants reopening etc. Nothing has changed with anything there, unless as with other things people have become lax about following the guidelines set out."
Then why are we closing them? If they are so amazingly safe, there'd be no need, right?
My point is that you are using the Governments strategy to justify your point instead of the original data used to base that decision on.
And again you put:
"My point was about people not self isolating or quarantining on return from foreign holidays both of which have been widely documented as being causes of the virus spreading amongst other things such as large non social distanced gatherings and house parties."
But you have no actual evidence that this is the case. You put "widely documented" but these will be one or two stories rather than actual data that shows that these particular things are the reasons why the virus is spreading so much. |
I have no idea why these places are closing down, they are COVID safe environments with SD measures in place. The collecting and recording of contact tracing data is now mandatory in pubs and restaurants.
As for your last point it’s bordering on ridiculous to say “where is your evidence?” Swansea gave a very well documented case of the guy from Bolton and the guys in Wales - I have no doubt these are not isolated incidents.
The bringing in of the rule of 6 was as a direct result of large house parties/gatherings that were in breach of SD rules, this is where the problem really lays.
The virus doesn’t tell you it’s transmitting in certain environments, much of this is based on scientific evidence of how the virus is transmitted and how we can reduce the risk, emphasis being on REDUCE the risk. People have been either ignorantly or deliberately ignoring the SD rules, quarantine rules (and I’m sure we all know someone who came back from their holiday and didn’t follow these- I know I do) & self isolating rules, that is the cold hard reasons why | |
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| Work from home if you can......again on 12:21 - Sep 22 with 1532 views | Ely_Blue |
| Work from home if you can......again on 11:50 - Sep 22 by DanTheMan |
I agree, it doesn't take many.
Which is why I think if our strategy didn't take into account human behaviour then we were asking for problems, and the reason I thought the idea of mass testing was so appealing. |
You do know that the uk has tested more per 100k of people in the uk than pretty much any country in the world?
Maybe these tests were incorrectly distributed or utilised | |
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| Work from home if you can......again on 12:27 - Sep 22 with 1518 views | itfcjoe |
| Work from home if you can......again on 12:18 - Sep 22 by Ely_Blue |
I have no idea why these places are closing down, they are COVID safe environments with SD measures in place. The collecting and recording of contact tracing data is now mandatory in pubs and restaurants.
As for your last point it’s bordering on ridiculous to say “where is your evidence?” Swansea gave a very well documented case of the guy from Bolton and the guys in Wales - I have no doubt these are not isolated incidents.
The bringing in of the rule of 6 was as a direct result of large house parties/gatherings that were in breach of SD rules, this is where the problem really lays.
The virus doesn’t tell you it’s transmitting in certain environments, much of this is based on scientific evidence of how the virus is transmitted and how we can reduce the risk, emphasis being on REDUCE the risk. People have been either ignorantly or deliberately ignoring the SD rules, quarantine rules (and I’m sure we all know someone who came back from their holiday and didn’t follow these- I know I do) & self isolating rules, that is the cold hard reasons why |
You don't seem to think the Govt should take any blame for this and it is all the fault of the people - the vast majority of whom are following the rules.
We went into lockdown too late because supposed behavioural sciences said the population won't keep to a lockdown. We then had to ease lockdown because it had gone too well and people had followed more strictly than their models suggested they would.
But a lot of people felt the Government were taking the p155 out of them when Cummings was able to do as he please and the public health communication policy was thrown away to protect one man |  |
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| Work from home if you can......again on 12:31 - Sep 22 with 1510 views | Herbivore |
| Work from home if you can......again on 12:27 - Sep 22 by itfcjoe |
You don't seem to think the Govt should take any blame for this and it is all the fault of the people - the vast majority of whom are following the rules.
We went into lockdown too late because supposed behavioural sciences said the population won't keep to a lockdown. We then had to ease lockdown because it had gone too well and people had followed more strictly than their models suggested they would.
But a lot of people felt the Government were taking the p155 out of them when Cummings was able to do as he please and the public health communication policy was thrown away to protect one man |
It's quite worrying to see the extent to which some people are willing to entirely blame individuals for the failings of the government in how they've handled this. [Post edited 22 Sep 2020 12:34]
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| Work from home if you can......again on 12:32 - Sep 22 with 1502 views | DanTheMan |
| Work from home if you can......again on 12:18 - Sep 22 by Ely_Blue |
I have no idea why these places are closing down, they are COVID safe environments with SD measures in place. The collecting and recording of contact tracing data is now mandatory in pubs and restaurants.
As for your last point it’s bordering on ridiculous to say “where is your evidence?” Swansea gave a very well documented case of the guy from Bolton and the guys in Wales - I have no doubt these are not isolated incidents.
The bringing in of the rule of 6 was as a direct result of large house parties/gatherings that were in breach of SD rules, this is where the problem really lays.
The virus doesn’t tell you it’s transmitting in certain environments, much of this is based on scientific evidence of how the virus is transmitted and how we can reduce the risk, emphasis being on REDUCE the risk. People have been either ignorantly or deliberately ignoring the SD rules, quarantine rules (and I’m sure we all know someone who came back from their holiday and didn’t follow these- I know I do) & self isolating rules, that is the cold hard reasons why |
"I have no idea why these places are closing down, they are COVID safe environments with SD measures in place."
But before you were saying the Government introducing fines is evidence that people breaking the rules is the main cause. You cannot have it both ways.
" Swansea gave a very well documented case of the guy from Bolton and the guys in Wales - I have no doubt these are not isolated incidents."
How is it bordering on ridiculous to say that two stories out of a whole country is enough to suggest that across the whole country the entire rise (multiple thousands a day) is purely down to people breaking quarantine and lockdown rules? That's hardly ridiculous. I don't doubt these people are out there and are spreading, but I think it's wrong to just point at them and say they are the only reason this is happening.
The bringing in of the rule of 6 was as a direct result of large house parties/gatherings that were in breach of SD rules, this is where the problem really lays.
That is neither quarantine nor self isolation, which is what you were talking about earlier.
And you're just repeating the assertions in the last paragraph that it's the "cold hard reason" with literally no data to back that up outside a handful of news stories which you're then extrapolating out to tens of thousands of cases.
For clarity, I'm not doubting there are being doing these things and contributing towards the rise. What I was originally questioning is how you came to the conclusion that it is literally just people breaking the rules contributing to the rise as opposed to all the other relaxations we've had since the original lockdown, such as hospitality openings, office openings, more people on public transport etc. | |
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| Work from home if you can......again on 12:34 - Sep 22 with 1494 views | solomon |
| Work from home if you can......again on 11:37 - Sep 22 by Jon_456 |
Thats one for the boss to decide. We are technically classed as key workers but there isnt really much I do at work that I cant do at home.
Things seemed to run relatively smoothly during the first lockdown but they seem against the idea of WFH this time. Time will tell I guess.
It just surprised me how many people are not back in the office, but its good to see companies aren't forcing their workers back. [Post edited 22 Sep 2020 11:39]
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It’s a concern when the Directors of a company think they know more than the science, but considering the government we now have I guess this flat earth philosophy is becoming more and more ingrained into the minds of the masses. | | | |
| Work from home if you can......again on 12:34 - Sep 22 with 1495 views | SpruceMoose |
| Work from home if you can......again on 12:31 - Sep 22 by Herbivore |
It's quite worrying to see the extent to which some people are willing to entirely blame individuals for the failings of the government in how they've handled this. [Post edited 22 Sep 2020 12:34]
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The view from across the ocean is remarkably similar to the situation here. Perhaps others disagree?
A crappy inept government put in charge by a small majority of crappy inept people have let everyone down, especially as both crappy and inept entities continue to frequently do the wrong thing. | |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| Work from home if you can......again on 12:35 - Sep 22 with 1490 views | Ely_Blue |
| Work from home if you can......again on 12:27 - Sep 22 by itfcjoe |
You don't seem to think the Govt should take any blame for this and it is all the fault of the people - the vast majority of whom are following the rules.
We went into lockdown too late because supposed behavioural sciences said the population won't keep to a lockdown. We then had to ease lockdown because it had gone too well and people had followed more strictly than their models suggested they would.
But a lot of people felt the Government were taking the p155 out of them when Cummings was able to do as he please and the public health communication policy was thrown away to protect one man |
I am certainly not absolving the govt of any blame for this at all, it’s been a bit of a shambles both from their perspective but also from a certain section of our culture and society that will do what they want regardless. Tougher enforcement is/was needed long ago and the government got that wrong because it would have “infringed on people’s rights”.
Other countries restricted movements within the country to a certain distance from home without good reason that had to be supported with documentation.
I find it laughable that as a country that wanted brexit to take back control of our borders that we haven’t closed them completely, stopped the holiday flights to keep the virus from coming back into the country from people returning from holiday | |
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| Work from home if you can......again on 12:37 - Sep 22 with 1483 views | Reuser_is_God |
| Work from home if you can......again on 08:58 - Sep 22 by Herbivore |
Have many people been going back to work? Genuinely curious as pretty much every major employer around here has told people months ago that they won't be going back in until January at the earliest. I don't know anyone doing an office based job that has been going back into the office, they've all still been working from home. |
This. |  |
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| Work from home if you can......again on 12:37 - Sep 22 with 1481 views | Reuser_is_God |
A week ago it was get everyone back to work to save the coffee shops. | |
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| Work from home if you can......again on 12:37 - Sep 22 with 1482 views | vapour_trail |
| Work from home if you can......again on 12:18 - Sep 22 by Ely_Blue |
I have no idea why these places are closing down, they are COVID safe environments with SD measures in place. The collecting and recording of contact tracing data is now mandatory in pubs and restaurants.
As for your last point it’s bordering on ridiculous to say “where is your evidence?” Swansea gave a very well documented case of the guy from Bolton and the guys in Wales - I have no doubt these are not isolated incidents.
The bringing in of the rule of 6 was as a direct result of large house parties/gatherings that were in breach of SD rules, this is where the problem really lays.
The virus doesn’t tell you it’s transmitting in certain environments, much of this is based on scientific evidence of how the virus is transmitted and how we can reduce the risk, emphasis being on REDUCE the risk. People have been either ignorantly or deliberately ignoring the SD rules, quarantine rules (and I’m sure we all know someone who came back from their holiday and didn’t follow these- I know I do) & self isolating rules, that is the cold hard reasons why |
This is all boIIocks, frankly.
Testing, tracing and effectively ensuring isolating in a timely manner isn’t fit for purpose. A pub that has a pen and a piece of paper for people to leave their name and number on the way in doesn’t automatically ensue in clusters being identified and contacted, quickly, following a positive test.
That is where we will get on top of this.
You seem desperate to blame a few people and focus on a few stories that some highly briefed government minister and half of Fleet Street are similarly desperate for you to do so. |  |
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| Work from home if you can......again on 12:38 - Sep 22 with 1476 views | Herbivore |
| Work from home if you can......again on 12:34 - Sep 22 by SpruceMoose |
The view from across the ocean is remarkably similar to the situation here. Perhaps others disagree?
A crappy inept government put in charge by a small majority of crappy inept people have let everyone down, especially as both crappy and inept entities continue to frequently do the wrong thing. |
One of the interesting features I've seen over here is that those who are most vocally against restrictive measures being taken to curb Covid are often those that most vocally cheerlead for the incompetent leaders we have. See, for example, someone like Paz on here. He's cross that there are restrictions of pub opening and wanted to go abroad ASAP and he's also one of those that still openly supports Boris Johnson. I've seen similar on social media, lots of pro-Brexit, pro-Tory, Union Jack profile pic types seem to be those most against the measures being put in place by a government they put in place.
Seems some people are just pretty awful and massively entitled. Ironically though these types are then keen to blame youngsters or other groups for the need to put restrictive measures in place. No sense of personal responsibility at all. [Post edited 22 Sep 2020 12:40]
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| Work from home if you can......again on 12:39 - Sep 22 with 1473 views | DanTheMan |
| Work from home if you can......again on 12:21 - Sep 22 by Ely_Blue |
You do know that the uk has tested more per 100k of people in the uk than pretty much any country in the world?
Maybe these tests were incorrectly distributed or utilised |
I do know that, yes. And you may certainly be correct about distribution and utilisation.
Also test and trace comes into it I would imagine. No point doing mass testing without that part working correctly. | |
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| Work from home if you can......again on 12:42 - Sep 22 with 1464 views | Ely_Blue |
| Work from home if you can......again on 12:32 - Sep 22 by DanTheMan |
"I have no idea why these places are closing down, they are COVID safe environments with SD measures in place."
But before you were saying the Government introducing fines is evidence that people breaking the rules is the main cause. You cannot have it both ways.
" Swansea gave a very well documented case of the guy from Bolton and the guys in Wales - I have no doubt these are not isolated incidents."
How is it bordering on ridiculous to say that two stories out of a whole country is enough to suggest that across the whole country the entire rise (multiple thousands a day) is purely down to people breaking quarantine and lockdown rules? That's hardly ridiculous. I don't doubt these people are out there and are spreading, but I think it's wrong to just point at them and say they are the only reason this is happening.
The bringing in of the rule of 6 was as a direct result of large house parties/gatherings that were in breach of SD rules, this is where the problem really lays.
That is neither quarantine nor self isolation, which is what you were talking about earlier.
And you're just repeating the assertions in the last paragraph that it's the "cold hard reason" with literally no data to back that up outside a handful of news stories which you're then extrapolating out to tens of thousands of cases.
For clarity, I'm not doubting there are being doing these things and contributing towards the rise. What I was originally questioning is how you came to the conclusion that it is literally just people breaking the rules contributing to the rise as opposed to all the other relaxations we've had since the original lockdown, such as hospitality openings, office openings, more people on public transport etc. |
“ What I was originally questioning is how you came to the conclusion that it is literally just people breaking the rules contributing to the rise as opposed to all the other relaxations we've had since the original lockdown, such as hospitality openings, office openings, more people on public transport etc.”
I have never said that these are the only reasons but the other examples such as hospitality, offices, public transport (schools and shops if you really want to go there) are more COVID controlled environments with the need for masks, Social Distancing, contact tracing etc being somewhat more enforced and enforceable.
Yes the government has to take their share of the blame but come on some people need to stand up and take responsibility too rather than expecting their backsides to be wiped at every turn | |
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| Work from home if you can......again on 12:43 - Sep 22 with 1463 views | SpruceMoose |
| Work from home if you can......again on 12:38 - Sep 22 by Herbivore |
One of the interesting features I've seen over here is that those who are most vocally against restrictive measures being taken to curb Covid are often those that most vocally cheerlead for the incompetent leaders we have. See, for example, someone like Paz on here. He's cross that there are restrictions of pub opening and wanted to go abroad ASAP and he's also one of those that still openly supports Boris Johnson. I've seen similar on social media, lots of pro-Brexit, pro-Tory, Union Jack profile pic types seem to be those most against the measures being put in place by a government they put in place.
Seems some people are just pretty awful and massively entitled. Ironically though these types are then keen to blame youngsters or other groups for the need to put restrictive measures in place. No sense of personal responsibility at all. [Post edited 22 Sep 2020 12:40]
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You can have my uppy, but boy it was a miserable one to give. I make you right. Same here.
Another thing that I've noticed about this lockdown business over here is that many people think that their circumstances are special, and as a result they can just bypass the rules when they like and it'll be entirely justified.
And those people have largely been affluent white people, who are largely shielded from the consequences of their actions. Not sure if that's the case in the UK, but I have noticed a not insignificant amount of privilege waving among the folk we encounter. | |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| Work from home if you can......again on 13:09 - Sep 22 with 1423 views | MonkeyAlan |
Two thirds of the country do jobs meaning they can't work from home. I fail to see how this is going to make much difference. Also shutting pubs and restaurants an hour early isnt going to change a lot either. This virus will be around before 10pm, it doesnt come out after dark. Can't see how these changes will do much at all. |  | | |
| Work from home if you can......again on 13:24 - Sep 22 with 1399 views | vapour_trail |
| Work from home if you can......again on 13:09 - Sep 22 by MonkeyAlan |
Two thirds of the country do jobs meaning they can't work from home. I fail to see how this is going to make much difference. Also shutting pubs and restaurants an hour early isnt going to change a lot either. This virus will be around before 10pm, it doesnt come out after dark. Can't see how these changes will do much at all. |
For all the carping (me included) about the 10pm rule just meaning people will get pissed earlier, people I know in the industry say it’s had significant impact where put in place to date. Particularly in areas where pubs and bars are open u too 2, 3, 4 by which point distancing is completely forgotten.
And if a third of the population can wfh, well that’s a massive impact on households mixing. | |
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| Work from home if you can......again on 13:39 - Sep 22 with 1365 views | Kieran_Knows |
| Work from home if you can......again on 08:58 - Sep 22 by Herbivore |
Have many people been going back to work? Genuinely curious as pretty much every major employer around here has told people months ago that they won't be going back in until January at the earliest. I don't know anyone doing an office based job that has been going back into the office, they've all still been working from home. |
I spent the first 10/11 weeks working from home when the announcement was first made in March, and have been back in the office since around middle - end of June. It's definitely easier me being at work, and I'm lucky I can just sit in my office without being disturbed (3 of us in the office, we all have our own offices). We have a fairly large yard, which has 3 workshops in, and the 3 guys up the yard all had their own workshop anyway, so has been even more handy given the circumstances. Yard is large so social distancing etc isn't a problem when lorries come in for collections/drop offs.
EDIT - I really struggled working from home, not so much because I was at home, but having to constantly call my guys in the yard about which jobs they needed to do. Much easier being here to have discussions etc, all whilst adhering to guidelines etc. [Post edited 22 Sep 2020 13:41]
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