| Vote Green folks* 15:58 - Dec 30 with 9678 views | Darth_Koont |
*Or SNP/Scottish Greens in Scotland.
Sure, vote Labour in 2024 if it’s about removing the Tories but don’t give these self-serving, no-principled empty suits the benefit of your support in polls or local elections until then. They’re not far off as bad a breed as the Tories.
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| Vote Green folks* on 19:44 - Dec 30 with 1789 views | tractordownsouth |
| Vote Green folks* on 19:10 - Dec 30 by Darth_Koont |
Oh dear. |
What part of that isn't true? |  |
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| Vote Green folks* on 19:49 - Dec 30 with 1774 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Vote Green folks* on 19:08 - Dec 30 by Darth_Koont |
You don’t have to vote for a deal that doesn’t reflect the referendum.
Be honest. |
What deal DID reflect the referendum?
48% of people wanted to remain.
52% voted leave, mostly without any idea what leave would possibly mean. |  |
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| Vote Green folks* on 20:52 - Dec 30 with 1720 views | Churchman |
| Vote Green folks* on 18:20 - Dec 30 by 26_Paz |
Right thing to do to take a stance, unlike his predecessor.
This is a Conservative deal that the Conservatives will own going into the next election, for better or worse.
The Tories backed the Iraq war but it was Labour’s decision and Labour owned it. That’s one of the main reason they were kicked out in 2010. Similar concept. |
Agreed. However, Labour won the election in 2005 following the Iraq war by a landslide. I suspect the 2010 was more to do with the financial crash, the dour and awful Gordon Brown and sheer boredom of the Labour Party after 14 years than either Tony’s porkies or the Tories’ competence. It was obvious even in 2010 that Shiny Cameron and Gideon’s dreadful crew had no substance whatsoever. |  | | |
| Vote Green folks* on 20:59 - Dec 30 with 1713 views | itfcjoe |
| Vote Green folks* on 19:08 - Dec 30 by Darth_Koont |
You don’t have to vote for a deal that doesn’t reflect the referendum.
Be honest. |
Labour have to try and get elected in the next GE, they need to ensure that those on the red wall don’t think Labour have let them down again, and to ensure that the Tories own the deal.
Paz nails it in his post |  |
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| Vote Green folks* on 21:32 - Dec 30 with 1687 views | 26_Paz |
| Vote Green folks* on 20:52 - Dec 30 by Churchman |
Agreed. However, Labour won the election in 2005 following the Iraq war by a landslide. I suspect the 2010 was more to do with the financial crash, the dour and awful Gordon Brown and sheer boredom of the Labour Party after 14 years than either Tony’s porkies or the Tories’ competence. It was obvious even in 2010 that Shiny Cameron and Gideon’s dreadful crew had no substance whatsoever. |
All of those things were also massive factors!
I would say though that in 2005 it maybe wasn’t quite as obvious how much of a disaster both Iraq and Afghanistan had been as it was in 2010. I may have got my dates mixed up by I think there were things like troop surges, IEDs and various such incidents in the period 2005 - 2010 that made it clear it was a disaster |  |
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| Vote Green folks* on 21:35 - Dec 30 with 1684 views | Darth_Koont |
| Vote Green folks* on 20:59 - Dec 30 by itfcjoe |
Labour have to try and get elected in the next GE, they need to ensure that those on the red wall don’t think Labour have let them down again, and to ensure that the Tories own the deal.
Paz nails it in his post |
Utterly missing the point.
Labour aren’t going to outmanoeuvre the Tories on their own talking points. Starmer is positioning Labour in an area that it can’t win.
It should be attacking the Tories on their own record and addressing the underlying causes of Brexit like austerity, rather than folding like a cheap suit.
This is what brought us Brexit in the first place. | |
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| Vote Green folks* on 21:43 - Dec 30 with 1663 views | itfcjoe |
| Vote Green folks* on 21:35 - Dec 30 by Darth_Koont |
Utterly missing the point.
Labour aren’t going to outmanoeuvre the Tories on their own talking points. Starmer is positioning Labour in an area that it can’t win.
It should be attacking the Tories on their own record and addressing the underlying causes of Brexit like austerity, rather than folding like a cheap suit.
This is what brought us Brexit in the first place. |
No, you miss the point that Labour need to pick up voters who voted for the Tories in the last election, if all they hear for the next 4 years is that Labour still tries to frustrate Brexit etc then they can’t win back their trust.
A line needs to be drawn under the Brexit debate. This is their deal, they own it now. Labour can and will attack the deal, and the Tories record on austerity and covid handling - but just shooting themselves in the foot over Brexit is the wrong move | |
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| Vote Green folks* on 21:44 - Dec 30 with 1659 views | Darth_Koont |
| Vote Green folks* on 19:44 - Dec 30 by tractordownsouth |
What part of that isn't true? |
The bit where you made a party political tactic into an actual reality.
Pretending that politics is all about solving electoral problems or triangulating for the polls is exactly why we’re in the current situation. The Tories bear the greatest responsibility for that but Starmer seems hell-bent on adopting the same approach in supposed opposition. | |
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| Vote Green folks* on 21:46 - Dec 30 with 1655 views | 26_Paz |
| Vote Green folks* on 21:43 - Dec 30 by itfcjoe |
No, you miss the point that Labour need to pick up voters who voted for the Tories in the last election, if all they hear for the next 4 years is that Labour still tries to frustrate Brexit etc then they can’t win back their trust.
A line needs to be drawn under the Brexit debate. This is their deal, they own it now. Labour can and will attack the deal, and the Tories record on austerity and covid handling - but just shooting themselves in the foot over Brexit is the wrong move |
You’re right, as a Tory I would have loved Labour to oppose it.
Starmer is right and he is beginning to cause me increasing concern. Compare him to Corbyn or Miliband (Ed) and he’s a completely different prospect (I.e. he’s actually electable). [Post edited 30 Dec 2020 21:46]
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| Vote Green folks* on 21:48 - Dec 30 with 1646 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Vote Green folks* on 21:46 - Dec 30 by 26_Paz |
You’re right, as a Tory I would have loved Labour to oppose it.
Starmer is right and he is beginning to cause me increasing concern. Compare him to Corbyn or Miliband (Ed) and he’s a completely different prospect (I.e. he’s actually electable). [Post edited 30 Dec 2020 21:46]
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Remind us again, what is about the current Government that makes you want them to continue ahead of Starmer "as a Tory"? | |
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| Vote Green folks* on 21:50 - Dec 30 with 1642 views | Herbivore |
| Vote Green folks* on 21:48 - Dec 30 by Nthsuffolkblue |
Remind us again, what is about the current Government that makes you want them to continue ahead of Starmer "as a Tory"? |
Paz thinks politics is like football, you pick a side to support and that's that even when it turns out they're totally sh!t. |  |
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| Vote Green folks* on 21:51 - Dec 30 with 1643 views | 26_Paz |
| Vote Green folks* on 21:48 - Dec 30 by Nthsuffolkblue |
Remind us again, what is about the current Government that makes you want them to continue ahead of Starmer "as a Tory"? |
They’ve got Brexit done, which I voted for.
Yes, the pandemic has been a complete disaster but they seem to be ahead of most countries in terms of the vaccine and rolling that out successfully is a shot (if you’ll pardon the pun) at redemption.
I’m in terms of my political outlook, I believe in free markets and a small state. They’re my natural political home. | |
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| Vote Green folks* on 21:52 - Dec 30 with 1643 views | Darth_Koont |
| Vote Green folks* on 21:43 - Dec 30 by itfcjoe |
No, you miss the point that Labour need to pick up voters who voted for the Tories in the last election, if all they hear for the next 4 years is that Labour still tries to frustrate Brexit etc then they can’t win back their trust.
A line needs to be drawn under the Brexit debate. This is their deal, they own it now. Labour can and will attack the deal, and the Tories record on austerity and covid handling - but just shooting themselves in the foot over Brexit is the wrong move |
Even if I agreed with that (and I don’t as politicians need to show leadership and represent people on issues rather than taking the shortcut of expediency), where was that argument in 2016-19?
I think you’re talking out of your @rse now you’ve got the ineffectual opposition you want. | |
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| Vote Green folks* on 21:58 - Dec 30 with 1624 views | Herbivore |
| Vote Green folks* on 21:51 - Dec 30 by 26_Paz |
They’ve got Brexit done, which I voted for.
Yes, the pandemic has been a complete disaster but they seem to be ahead of most countries in terms of the vaccine and rolling that out successfully is a shot (if you’ll pardon the pun) at redemption.
I’m in terms of my political outlook, I believe in free markets and a small state. They’re my natural political home. |
You believe in free markets and a small state but you voted for Brexit, which entailed leaving a huge free market and giving up free access to other markets, and which will also necessarily entail some expansion of the state to fulfil functions previously fulfilled by the EU and to deal with additional customs and border checks? Not sure you've thought this through. | |
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| Vote Green folks* on 21:59 - Dec 30 with 1626 views | itfcjoe |
| Vote Green folks* on 21:52 - Dec 30 by Darth_Koont |
Even if I agreed with that (and I don’t as politicians need to show leadership and represent people on issues rather than taking the shortcut of expediency), where was that argument in 2016-19?
I think you’re talking out of your @rse now you’ve got the ineffectual opposition you want. |
Yes, it’s nice to see an actual competent opposition - one that realises winning elections is the only way to help people and going down that path. | |
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| Vote Green folks* on 22:03 - Dec 30 with 1617 views | tractordownsouth |
| Vote Green folks* on 21:59 - Dec 30 by itfcjoe |
Yes, it’s nice to see an actual competent opposition - one that realises winning elections is the only way to help people and going down that path. |
Yes but we all know the measure of real opposition is getting retweets from Kerry Ann Mendoza and Aaron Bastani | |
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| Vote Green folks* on 22:10 - Dec 30 with 1598 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Vote Green folks* on 21:51 - Dec 30 by 26_Paz |
They’ve got Brexit done, which I voted for.
Yes, the pandemic has been a complete disaster but they seem to be ahead of most countries in terms of the vaccine and rolling that out successfully is a shot (if you’ll pardon the pun) at redemption.
I’m in terms of my political outlook, I believe in free markets and a small state. They’re my natural political home. |
Did you get the version of Brexit you wanted? Are you prepared to accept all the consequences of it?
Do you have any qualms with their cronyism and wasting of public money generally regardless of the Covid management?
"in terms of my political outlook, I believe in free markets and a small state." So you think the rich should be looked after and the poor should suffer for being poor.
Thanks for an honest answer. | |
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| Vote Green folks* on 22:16 - Dec 30 with 1584 views | 26_Paz |
| Vote Green folks* on 21:58 - Dec 30 by Herbivore |
You believe in free markets and a small state but you voted for Brexit, which entailed leaving a huge free market and giving up free access to other markets, and which will also necessarily entail some expansion of the state to fulfil functions previously fulfilled by the EU and to deal with additional customs and border checks? Not sure you've thought this through. |
I see the EU as an extension of the state. Removing that takes away a layer of interference. I believe not binding ourselves to the EU opens up freer trade to the rest of the world. We will soon find out if this happens. | |
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| Vote Green folks* on 22:19 - Dec 30 with 1572 views | 26_Paz |
| Vote Green folks* on 22:10 - Dec 30 by Nthsuffolkblue |
Did you get the version of Brexit you wanted? Are you prepared to accept all the consequences of it?
Do you have any qualms with their cronyism and wasting of public money generally regardless of the Covid management?
"in terms of my political outlook, I believe in free markets and a small state." So you think the rich should be looked after and the poor should suffer for being poor.
Thanks for an honest answer. |
I’ll take this one paragraph by paragraph:
Pretty much and yes
I believe things should be looked at through the prism of the moment. At the time we were desperate for PPE and would have done anything to get it, including not following usual procurement practices.
When did I say anything about looking after the rich at the expense of the poor?! You’ve just made that bit up | |
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| Vote Green folks* on 22:21 - Dec 30 with 1566 views | Herbivore |
| Vote Green folks* on 22:16 - Dec 30 by 26_Paz |
I see the EU as an extension of the state. Removing that takes away a layer of interference. I believe not binding ourselves to the EU opens up freer trade to the rest of the world. We will soon find out if this happens. |
That's all b0llocks though. It's okay to admit you don't really understand politics so just vote for whoever promises you lower taxes. It's not like it would lower my opinion of you. | |
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| Vote Green folks* on 22:23 - Dec 30 with 1560 views | 26_Paz |
| Vote Green folks* on 22:21 - Dec 30 by Herbivore |
That's all b0llocks though. It's okay to admit you don't really understand politics so just vote for whoever promises you lower taxes. It's not like it would lower my opinion of you. |
It’s not b0llocks. It’s not what you think but it’s not b0llocks. You’re far too dismissive of people. | |
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| Vote Green folks* on 22:25 - Dec 30 with 1551 views | Herbivore |
| Vote Green folks* on 22:23 - Dec 30 by 26_Paz |
It’s not b0llocks. It’s not what you think but it’s not b0llocks. You’re far too dismissive of people. |
It is b0llocks. If you chat b0llocks, I'm entitled to point out that you're chatting b0llocks. | |
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| Vote Green folks* on 22:27 - Dec 30 with 1548 views | 26_Paz |
| Vote Green folks* on 22:25 - Dec 30 by Herbivore |
It is b0llocks. If you chat b0llocks, I'm entitled to point out that you're chatting b0llocks. |
You think it’s b0llocks, doesn’t mean it is.
Give it a year and we will find out. I’m willing to bet Britain will recover from Covid quicker than the EU | |
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| Vote Green folks* on 22:31 - Dec 30 with 1544 views | Herbivore |
| Vote Green folks* on 22:27 - Dec 30 by 26_Paz |
You think it’s b0llocks, doesn’t mean it is.
Give it a year and we will find out. I’m willing to bet Britain will recover from Covid quicker than the EU |
The EU is made up of 27 different countries, it's not a single entity. Each country has been responsible for its own response to Covid, much as the UK has, so I'm not sure how you will compare the UK to 'the EU' when it comes to recovering quicker from Covid? What metrics are you using and how will they account for national differences across the EU? If, for example, Germany 'recovers' much quicker than the UK but Greece recovers slower on your chosen metric, will you take that as 'the EU' recovering more slowly or more quickly than the UK? | |
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