| Vote Green folks* 15:58 - Dec 30 with 9677 views | Darth_Koont |
*Or SNP/Scottish Greens in Scotland.
Sure, vote Labour in 2024 if it’s about removing the Tories but don’t give these self-serving, no-principled empty suits the benefit of your support in polls or local elections until then. They’re not far off as bad a breed as the Tories.
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| Vote Green folks* on 10:31 - Dec 31 with 2609 views | Darth_Koont |
| Vote Green folks* on 10:17 - Dec 31 by StokieBlue |
Context?
One wasn't in the middle of a pandemic and after Brexit with a pretty rubbish deal. The outlook in 2015 whilst not stable was far more stable than what we have at the moment, the referendum wasn't even until 2016 and realistically remain was expecting to win.
SB [Post edited 31 Dec 2020 10:21]
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The context of a pandemic that exposed social and regional inequalities, not to mention NHS weaknesses? The context of Black Lives Matter and an overdue debate on structural racism? The context of 5 years of posturing by the government and assorted political parties on Brexit itself? The context of Scottish independence now looking inevitable? The context of 5 years largely wasted in tackling climate change? Or failing to address other changes in society like automation, AI, aging populations etc.?
You’re making excuses. Either that or we have a completely different notion of context and politicians’ responsibilities. | |
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| Vote Green folks* on 10:33 - Dec 31 with 2600 views | lowhouseblue |
| Vote Green folks* on 09:54 - Dec 31 by Darth_Koont |
You confuse “hero worship” with being finally excited by transformative and much-needed policies to make the UK a better place to live – and before it tears itself apart.
But I can see why a vacuous party political ghoul like you doesn’t get that. 😉 |
it's just that your transformative and much needed positions always seem to end up sustaining the tories. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Vote Green folks* on 10:56 - Dec 31 with 2569 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
Rather misleading to push the point that the vote wasn’t on the deal itself. That may technically be true however it’s clear that a vote to allow the government to implement the deal is in effect a vote on the deal itself
As for no deal being possible, I don’t understand the logic presented? The authors thats that they COULD have proceeded anyway (which I strongly doubt) and that if so the EU COULD have granted a grace period for us being unable to comply with the terms. However, I think it’s highly unlikely that had the vote not passed that even this Government would be willing (or indeed able) to press on, and would in effect be back to the drawing board. Therefore short of a ‘better’ deal being agreed between yesterday and tomorrow (impossible) or the EU agreeing to further extend the transition period (more likely) we would have effectively reached a no deal position come midnight tonight, no?
Happy to be corrected if any of the above is incorrect [Post edited 31 Dec 2020 10:56]
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| Vote Green folks* on 10:58 - Dec 31 with 2566 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| Vote Green folks* on 16:40 - Dec 30 by Darth_Koont |
Serious question: Do you seriously think the deal wouldn’t pass? |
No but that wasn’t what I asked. Any chance of an answer to the question?
Or are you suggesting Starmer should have been more concerned with playing party politics than pushing for the best of a bad bunch of options for the UK at this time? | |
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| Vote Green folks* on 11:07 - Dec 31 with 2547 views | N2_Blue |
| Vote Green folks* on 21:52 - Dec 30 by Darth_Koont |
Even if I agreed with that (and I don’t as politicians need to show leadership and represent people on issues rather than taking the shortcut of expediency), where was that argument in 2016-19?
I think you’re talking out of your @rse now you’ve got the ineffectual opposition you want. |
Stop being a knob and actually take in what some sensible people are saying to you.
On a political discussion you become quite vile and nasty...which is rather ironic in view of the contempt to treat others with.
You are so blinkered it's crazy.
Completely different views but you're as bad as Paz when it comes to anyone trying to give you an alternative viewpoint. |  |
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| Vote Green folks* on 11:13 - Dec 31 with 2540 views | Darth_Koont |
| Vote Green folks* on 10:58 - Dec 31 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
No but that wasn’t what I asked. Any chance of an answer to the question?
Or are you suggesting Starmer should have been more concerned with playing party politics than pushing for the best of a bad bunch of options for the UK at this time? |
Read Clapham’s posts. This was made into a completely false dichotomy for political purposes.
Abstaining would have been perfectly acceptable here too. | |
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| Vote Green folks* on 11:18 - Dec 31 with 2533 views | Darth_Koont |
| Vote Green folks* on 11:07 - Dec 31 by N2_Blue |
Stop being a knob and actually take in what some sensible people are saying to you.
On a political discussion you become quite vile and nasty...which is rather ironic in view of the contempt to treat others with.
You are so blinkered it's crazy.
Completely different views but you're as bad as Paz when it comes to anyone trying to give you an alternative viewpoint. |
Thanks for your opinion on the matter.
It’s odd because I think the majority of the people who engage in politics are ridiculously narrow and limited in their perspective. Maybe I’m close-minded or maybe you are?
Something to ponder anyway. | |
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| Vote Green folks* on 11:21 - Dec 31 with 2519 views | Darth_Koont |
| Vote Green folks* on 10:33 - Dec 31 by lowhouseblue |
it's just that your transformative and much needed positions always seem to end up sustaining the tories. |
How do you work that out? You spent the past 5 years attacking the opposition and on every issue seem to have centre-right opinions.
You’re my guiding brown star of where to steer away from. | |
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| Vote Green folks* on 11:23 - Dec 31 with 2509 views | StokieBlue |
| Vote Green folks* on 10:31 - Dec 31 by Darth_Koont |
The context of a pandemic that exposed social and regional inequalities, not to mention NHS weaknesses? The context of Black Lives Matter and an overdue debate on structural racism? The context of 5 years of posturing by the government and assorted political parties on Brexit itself? The context of Scottish independence now looking inevitable? The context of 5 years largely wasted in tackling climate change? Or failing to address other changes in society like automation, AI, aging populations etc.?
You’re making excuses. Either that or we have a completely different notion of context and politicians’ responsibilities. |
I was clearly talking about context at the time of the next election. That is clearly key when deciding on policy and totally unknown at this time.
SB |  | | |
| Vote Green folks* on 11:27 - Dec 31 with 2498 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| Vote Green folks* on 11:13 - Dec 31 by Darth_Koont |
Read Clapham’s posts. This was made into a completely false dichotomy for political purposes.
Abstaining would have been perfectly acceptable here too. |
I’ve read it and replied to it
Again, what do you think was the best way forward for the UK based on where we were yesterday? | |
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| Vote Green folks* on 11:30 - Dec 31 with 2489 views | Darth_Koont |
| Vote Green folks* on 11:23 - Dec 31 by StokieBlue |
I was clearly talking about context at the time of the next election. That is clearly key when deciding on policy and totally unknown at this time.
SB |
What context that I mentioned won’t be context in 2024?
I respect you Stokie and think we share a rational approach. But here might be the crux of our difference and it’s that we see the problems differently and therefore the solutions too. | |
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| Vote Green folks* on 11:34 - Dec 31 with 2475 views | Darth_Koont |
| Vote Green folks* on 11:27 - Dec 31 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
I’ve read it and replied to it
Again, what do you think was the best way forward for the UK based on where we were yesterday? |
Let the Tories own Brexit and this deal. It was always going to happen but support however tacit makes a pretty awful statement.
You evidently disagree. | |
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| Vote Green folks* on 11:36 - Dec 31 with 2467 views | Herbivore |
| Vote Green folks* on 09:36 - Dec 31 by Darth_Koont |
It’s the perfect time surely? As I’ve said, if it comes to a straight choice in a GE between the Tories and Labour then of course there’s no doubt Starmer would get my vote.
But until then he has to be much stronger in shaping the debate and representing a genuine alternative. So far he’s been awful on that score by pivoting towards social conservatism with a deeply limited focus on “family, nation and opportunity”.
I don’t buy what Starmer says and I don’t trust him based on how quickly he’s shifted away from his pledges and his pretence at unity. For me he’s showing himself to be exactly the sort of politician that’s sleepwalked us into becoming a divided and unequal country in 2020.
I don’t even think it’s going to work electorally despite appealing to racist homeowners and an Establishment-leaning media that has given him a relatively free ride. When the Tories start to ramp up the identity politics and come out with stuff like the recent frightful guff about “levelling up” the country because we’re now out of the EU, then Starmer will have nowhere to go. But if he owned the discussion about decades of structurally weak government policy and poor investment in people and the economy then he’d have the basis to attack. And command the sort of attention that his lack of charisma denies (not a problem in a serious politician but a fatal one in a politician trading in superficial, performative stuff).
He’s got time to sort himself out but, if you believe in progressive politics as a much-needed antidote to the UK’s health and future fitness, his start has been ropy AF. |
I'm not sure how you effectively pivot the debate that way in the middle of the pandemic and with Brexit having loomed large for much of the year. It feels like you expect him to ignore the realities of pressing crises to hammer home a message about how awful the Tories are and how much we need structural change. There will be a time for that and if he doesn't offer a credible alternative then that will be a disappointment but personally I think you're being hugely unrealistic and you've gone massively early based on your perception of Starmer rather than on anything to do with policy, which is odd given that you've always claimed to be all about the policy. |  |
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| Vote Green folks* on 11:39 - Dec 31 with 2453 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| Vote Green folks* on 11:34 - Dec 31 by Darth_Koont |
Let the Tories own Brexit and this deal. It was always going to happen but support however tacit makes a pretty awful statement.
You evidently disagree. |
That’s a party political answer once again - and again not answering what was actually asked. The Tories clearly own Brexit regardless
I think the fact you refuse to answer what the best outcome for the UK at this point was is rather telling | |
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| Vote Green folks* on 11:47 - Dec 31 with 2430 views | Darth_Koont |
| Vote Green folks* on 11:36 - Dec 31 by Herbivore |
I'm not sure how you effectively pivot the debate that way in the middle of the pandemic and with Brexit having loomed large for much of the year. It feels like you expect him to ignore the realities of pressing crises to hammer home a message about how awful the Tories are and how much we need structural change. There will be a time for that and if he doesn't offer a credible alternative then that will be a disappointment but personally I think you're being hugely unrealistic and you've gone massively early based on your perception of Starmer rather than on anything to do with policy, which is odd given that you've always claimed to be all about the policy. |
I’ve been following Starmer closely so not as if this is any knee jerk reaction. And in the absence of a manifesto clearly this is about divining his intentions and stances. But as I said to Stokie this was done for Corbyn straight off the bat in 2015 and I don’t see the problem with that.
I think people are perhaps ignoring the positions Starmer has taken in public and internally in the Labour Party. Or they support them, I don’t know.
I guess we’ll find out whether 2021 is a continuation of that. If I’ve got Starmer completely wrong I’ll hold my hand up. But I’ve become more and more of the opinion he’s a negative as opposition leader and for what the country needs as time has gone on so will be a nice surprise if he starts acting differently. | |
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| Vote Green folks* on 11:50 - Dec 31 with 2426 views | Darth_Koont |
| Vote Green folks* on 11:39 - Dec 31 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
That’s a party political answer once again - and again not answering what was actually asked. The Tories clearly own Brexit regardless
I think the fact you refuse to answer what the best outcome for the UK at this point was is rather telling |
The best option is to have a deal. But that was never in doubt during the vote.
So the truly best option was also to have an opposition that at least abstained from a deal it recognised as a bad deal. | |
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| Vote Green folks* on 11:56 - Dec 31 with 2405 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| Vote Green folks* on 11:50 - Dec 31 by Darth_Koont |
The best option is to have a deal. But that was never in doubt during the vote.
So the truly best option was also to have an opposition that at least abstained from a deal it recognised as a bad deal. |
So actually it turns out you think to pass the deal was the best outcome, but are annoyed at Starmer for not playing party political games then? | |
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| Vote Green folks* on 11:58 - Dec 31 with 2400 views | StokieBlue |
| Vote Green folks* on 11:30 - Dec 31 by Darth_Koont |
What context that I mentioned won’t be context in 2024?
I respect you Stokie and think we share a rational approach. But here might be the crux of our difference and it’s that we see the problems differently and therefore the solutions too. |
All those things will still be issues in 2024 that need solutions but you are ignoring the political and economic context and only focusing on policy.
If he announces lots of policies now but the economic and political context at the time prevents them being possible he will be destroyed and it's 5 more years of the Tories.
Your position is admirably focused but in my opinion lacks some realism. I feel that is why we disagree, I think sometimes we just need to be pragmatic.
SB [Post edited 31 Dec 2020 11:58]
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| Vote Green folks* on 12:07 - Dec 31 with 2382 views | pointofblue |
| Vote Green folks* on 11:50 - Dec 31 by Darth_Koont |
The best option is to have a deal. But that was never in doubt during the vote.
So the truly best option was also to have an opposition that at least abstained from a deal it recognised as a bad deal. |
I do think Labour were caught between a rock and a hard place, placed there by the ERG and also the criticism received in the 2019 General Election campaign for seemingly not having a clear policy on Remain or Leave, unlike the other major parties.
With yesterday’s vote there would have been a sense of distrust towards the ERG - whilst they were making positive noises about voting for the deal I guess the question remained were they trying to blindside the opposition into abstaining or voting against and then turn themselves? If the deal hadn’t passed through the Commons at the very least it would have caused a wave of uncertainty and doubt which is horrendous for business, let alone without Covid piling on the problems.
If Labour simply had abstained from the vote would, to many, simply look like they were wimping out of drawing a line either way which is exactly how the policy was perceived in 2019.
As for Starmer’s overall approach he is keeping everything superficial for now which may not be the worst thing from a political view. As I doubt Johnson will still be Conservative leader next summer I think keeping his powder dry for the new incumbent may be the best idea. At this stage ongoing events are outrunning the political spectrum so this isn’t the time to necessarily speak out about tax hikes for the rich persons and businesses, even if he desperately wants to - the lie of the land needs to be surveyed before he decides on how to move forward. |  |
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| Vote Green folks* on 12:20 - Dec 31 with 2372 views | CrayonKing |
| Vote Green folks* on 21:35 - Dec 30 by Darth_Koont |
Utterly missing the point.
Labour aren’t going to outmanoeuvre the Tories on their own talking points. Starmer is positioning Labour in an area that it can’t win.
It should be attacking the Tories on their own record and addressing the underlying causes of Brexit like austerity, rather than folding like a cheap suit.
This is what brought us Brexit in the first place. |
"Labour aren’t going to outmanoeuvre the Tories on their own talking points."
That's the whole point! If they vote against the deal it keeps a battleground open that they can't win! Next election, in the minds of a significant number of voters (that they need to win back), they'll still be the party that wouldn't accept Brexit and tried to thwart it right up until the very last minute.
The tories would have absolutely loved for him to have fallen in to that trap. Not least because it distracts from the underlying causes you want them to focus on! |  | | |
| Vote Green folks* on 12:50 - Dec 31 with 2331 views | Darth_Koont |
| Vote Green folks* on 11:58 - Dec 31 by StokieBlue |
All those things will still be issues in 2024 that need solutions but you are ignoring the political and economic context and only focusing on policy.
If he announces lots of policies now but the economic and political context at the time prevents them being possible he will be destroyed and it's 5 more years of the Tories.
Your position is admirably focused but in my opinion lacks some realism. I feel that is why we disagree, I think sometimes we just need to be pragmatic.
SB [Post edited 31 Dec 2020 11:58]
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But I’ve said I’ve not expected policies per se but I do think there’s been a lack of focus on issues and any sense of direction.
I think the context of 2020 has made that more important not less. And when Starmer has come out he’s said the focus is on getting Brexit done and some loose family, nation and opportunity gubbins that suggest the real issues aren’t going to be on the table.
Some no doubt see it as smart politicking but this is just triangulation that frankly the Torres do better anyway. Post Brexit and the pandemic we’re going to see identity politics come to the fore and another shift away from the real issues affecting the country.
I’m sick and tired of this same old politics and what it ignores or even what it excuses. That’s why we have going on 5 million children living in poverty - a complete inability/unwillingness to face reality and really represent citizens and their interests. | |
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| Vote Green folks* on 12:56 - Dec 31 with 2318 views | Darth_Koont |
| Vote Green folks* on 12:20 - Dec 31 by CrayonKing |
"Labour aren’t going to outmanoeuvre the Tories on their own talking points."
That's the whole point! If they vote against the deal it keeps a battleground open that they can't win! Next election, in the minds of a significant number of voters (that they need to win back), they'll still be the party that wouldn't accept Brexit and tried to thwart it right up until the very last minute.
The tories would have absolutely loved for him to have fallen in to that trap. Not least because it distracts from the underlying causes you want them to focus on! |
They could have abstained. Now they’re the party that actively supported a bad deal when they didn’t even need to.
And trying to make Brexit go away and making Brexit go away in political terms are two very different things. | |
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| Vote Green folks* on 13:08 - Dec 31 with 2293 views | Darth_Koont |
| Vote Green folks* on 11:56 - Dec 31 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
So actually it turns out you think to pass the deal was the best outcome, but are annoyed at Starmer for not playing party political games then? |
It’s making a statement about what you are willing to support. I’d never put my name anywhere near the deal which is the result of 4 plus years of party political games.
An abstention at least would be the noble course and show that while you recognise the inevitability of the deal you want them to own it completely.
Although, thinking about it, maybe Starmer and the PV lot did feel complicit so is this a brutally honest take? | |
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| Vote Green folks* on 14:04 - Dec 31 with 2250 views | CrayonKing |
| Vote Green folks* on 12:56 - Dec 31 by Darth_Koont |
They could have abstained. Now they’re the party that actively supported a bad deal when they didn’t even need to.
And trying to make Brexit go away and making Brexit go away in political terms are two very different things. |
I'd imagine that it was a fairly close call between voting for it and abstaining. Pretty sure abstaining would still be viewed as a fudge and "still not accepting the will of the people" in some quarters though. Voting for is probably a more effective way of drawing a line under it - effectively telling Brexit voters that they've accepted it.
I suspect we'd still have this thread if they'd abstained anyway!
Either way it's the Tory's deal to own. Nobody will care about how the vote panned out at the end of the day. Labour gets 100% of the blame for Iraq, despite the fact the vote wouldn't have passed without tory support. Can't see how this will be any different.
"And trying to make Brexit go away and making Brexit go away in political terms are two very different things."
Not sure what your point is here? Labour were destroyed at the last election by Brexit (among other things). Brexit itself isn't going anywhere, so making it go away politically so they can focus on other issues has to be the next best thing? | | | |
| Vote Green folks* on 14:21 - Dec 31 with 2226 views | SpruceMoose |
| Vote Green folks* on 21:51 - Dec 30 by 26_Paz |
They’ve got Brexit done, which I voted for.
Yes, the pandemic has been a complete disaster but they seem to be ahead of most countries in terms of the vaccine and rolling that out successfully is a shot (if you’ll pardon the pun) at redemption.
I’m in terms of my political outlook, I believe in free markets and a small state. They’re my natural political home. |
And racism, bigotry and hurting both the poor and the environment. Don't forget to say the quiet bits out loud for us. |  |
| Pronouns: He/Him/His.
"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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