| Vote Green folks* 15:58 - Dec 30 with 9675 views | Darth_Koont |
*Or SNP/Scottish Greens in Scotland.
Sure, vote Labour in 2024 if it’s about removing the Tories but don’t give these self-serving, no-principled empty suits the benefit of your support in polls or local elections until then. They’re not far off as bad a breed as the Tories.
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| Vote Green folks* on 22:38 - Dec 30 with 830 views | 26_Paz |
| Vote Green folks* on 22:31 - Dec 30 by Herbivore |
The EU is made up of 27 different countries, it's not a single entity. Each country has been responsible for its own response to Covid, much as the UK has, so I'm not sure how you will compare the UK to 'the EU' when it comes to recovering quicker from Covid? What metrics are you using and how will they account for national differences across the EU? If, for example, Germany 'recovers' much quicker than the UK but Greece recovers slower on your chosen metric, will you take that as 'the EU' recovering more slowly or more quickly than the UK? |
You’d have to take an average across EU GDP and compare to the UK’s |  |
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| Vote Green folks* on 22:43 - Dec 30 with 821 views | Herbivore |
| Vote Green folks* on 22:38 - Dec 30 by 26_Paz |
You’d have to take an average across EU GDP and compare to the UK’s |
So you're using GDP as the sole metric and taking an average of the GDP of 27 different countries and comparing it to the UK? Why? |  |
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| Vote Green folks* on 22:53 - Dec 30 with 808 views | 26_Paz |
| Vote Green folks* on 22:43 - Dec 30 by Herbivore |
So you're using GDP as the sole metric and taking an average of the GDP of 27 different countries and comparing it to the UK? Why? |
You got any better ideas to measure the economic recovery? | |
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| Vote Green folks* on 22:59 - Dec 30 with 799 views | Herbivore |
| Vote Green folks* on 22:53 - Dec 30 by 26_Paz |
You got any better ideas to measure the economic recovery? |
You said recovery, only now are you specifying economic recovery. So what specifically are you looking at in terms of GDP? Purely growth? And from what point? What is the value in comparing our GDP growth with the likes of Estonia, Hungary and Greece? What are you hoping that will demonstrate? As I said previously, the EU isn't a single entity and the member states have all been affected by and responded to Covid very differently and so will likely recover very differently. So specifically, how will you be using GDP and what do you think you are hoping to prove? | |
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| Vote Green folks* on 23:08 - Dec 30 with 780 views | 26_Paz |
| Vote Green folks* on 22:59 - Dec 30 by Herbivore |
You said recovery, only now are you specifying economic recovery. So what specifically are you looking at in terms of GDP? Purely growth? And from what point? What is the value in comparing our GDP growth with the likes of Estonia, Hungary and Greece? What are you hoping that will demonstrate? As I said previously, the EU isn't a single entity and the member states have all been affected by and responded to Covid very differently and so will likely recover very differently. So specifically, how will you be using GDP and what do you think you are hoping to prove? |
I’m just saying I think the growth in the UK’s GDP in 2021 will be greater than the average growth across the 27 EU member states. Nothing more complicated than that. | |
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| Vote Green folks* on 23:11 - Dec 30 with 772 views | Herbivore |
| Vote Green folks* on 23:08 - Dec 30 by 26_Paz |
I’m just saying I think the growth in the UK’s GDP in 2021 will be greater than the average growth across the 27 EU member states. Nothing more complicated than that. |
But what does that matter? The more important metric is whether our growth would be higher if we stayed in the EU versus leaving the EU, and every forecast, including the government's own, says our economic growth will be slower over a prolonged period of time following Brexit than it would be had we remained. Comparisons to countries with very different economic circumstances to us aren't really relevant. | |
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| Vote Green folks* on 23:15 - Dec 30 with 767 views | Darth_Koont |
Problem is that I don’t believe Starmer and his commitment to actual non-party political issues.
50/50 he doesn’t make it through 2021. He’s a lemon. | |
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| Vote Green folks* on 23:18 - Dec 30 with 759 views | 26_Paz |
| Vote Green folks* on 23:11 - Dec 30 by Herbivore |
But what does that matter? The more important metric is whether our growth would be higher if we stayed in the EU versus leaving the EU, and every forecast, including the government's own, says our economic growth will be slower over a prolonged period of time following Brexit than it would be had we remained. Comparisons to countries with very different economic circumstances to us aren't really relevant. |
I believe those forecasts are incorrect and the actual data that emerges over the next year will prove it to be so ... we can’t answer it now but we will soon find out | |
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| Vote Green folks* on 23:26 - Dec 30 with 753 views | Darth_Koont |
| Vote Green folks* on 21:59 - Dec 30 by itfcjoe |
Yes, it’s nice to see an actual competent opposition - one that realises winning elections is the only way to help people and going down that path. |
I think he’s screwed electorally because he’s not actually offering anything.
But I’d be interested to know how you think Starmer’s Labour is actually going to help people? Other than not being Tory – which is sh1t and empty but at least it’s a vision. | |
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| Vote Green folks* on 23:32 - Dec 30 with 736 views | Herbivore |
| Vote Green folks* on 23:18 - Dec 30 by 26_Paz |
I believe those forecasts are incorrect and the actual data that emerges over the next year will prove it to be so ... we can’t answer it now but we will soon find out |
So you believe that every forecast that shows that our growth will be slower outside the EU is wrong? On what basis other than blind faith? | |
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| Vote Green folks* on 23:35 - Dec 30 with 728 views | Herbivore |
| Vote Green folks* on 23:26 - Dec 30 by Darth_Koont |
I think he’s screwed electorally because he’s not actually offering anything.
But I’d be interested to know how you think Starmer’s Labour is actually going to help people? Other than not being Tory – which is sh1t and empty but at least it’s a vision. |
We're 4 years away from an election. I know you and some other Corbynites have nailed your colours to the mast really early on but as a group it's pretty clear that you and the Corbynites aren't very representative. Starmer may well turn out to not offer anything and if that's the case I'll be disappointed and won't vote Labour. But to be claiming he's not offering anything now when we don't even have the outline of manifesto, we're miles out from a GE, and he's been leader less than a year during which Brexit and a global pandemic have dominated is really quite bizarre. | |
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| Vote Green folks* on 23:48 - Dec 30 with 712 views | tractordownsouth |
| Vote Green folks* on 23:15 - Dec 30 by Darth_Koont |
Problem is that I don’t believe Starmer and his commitment to actual non-party political issues.
50/50 he doesn’t make it through 2021. He’s a lemon. |
£10 charity bet? |  |
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| Vote Green folks* on 00:02 - Dec 31 with 688 views | J2BLUE |
You should make it £1000. |  |
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| Vote Green folks* on 09:10 - Dec 31 with 627 views | Darth_Koont |
Go on then. | |
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| Vote Green folks* on 09:17 - Dec 31 with 606 views | StokieBlue |
| Vote Green folks* on 23:26 - Dec 30 by Darth_Koont |
I think he’s screwed electorally because he’s not actually offering anything.
But I’d be interested to know how you think Starmer’s Labour is actually going to help people? Other than not being Tory – which is sh1t and empty but at least it’s a vision. |
I still don't understand this (and I know we had discussed it many times) but what exactly is the point in Starmer offering policies many years before an election when he has no idea what the political and economic situation will be closer to the election?
I know you think that policy should be formed based on principle but to exclude contemporary context from that is to doom it to failure.
Essentially, your position boils down to: Starmer isn't doing what I want.
That's fine but maybe just say that rather than dressing it up with points around his leadership.
SB |  | | |
| Vote Green folks* on 09:20 - Dec 31 with 599 views | DanTheMan |
| Vote Green folks* on 09:17 - Dec 31 by StokieBlue |
I still don't understand this (and I know we had discussed it many times) but what exactly is the point in Starmer offering policies many years before an election when he has no idea what the political and economic situation will be closer to the election?
I know you think that policy should be formed based on principle but to exclude contemporary context from that is to doom it to failure.
Essentially, your position boils down to: Starmer isn't doing what I want.
That's fine but maybe just say that rather than dressing it up with points around his leadership.
SB |
A good point right here.
I was thinking back to the start of the pandemic and thinking how silly it was that the Government, despite being well aware a major pandemic was about to hit, was announcing loads of rather expensive policies it was going to implement.
Fast forward a month or so and they rightly had to drop most of it.
Pointless announcing things when you have no idea whether they are at all feasible. General goals are good perhaps but anything specific should be specific to the time it's announced. |  |
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| Vote Green folks* on 09:22 - Dec 31 with 595 views | lowhouseblue |
| Vote Green folks* on 09:17 - Dec 31 by StokieBlue |
I still don't understand this (and I know we had discussed it many times) but what exactly is the point in Starmer offering policies many years before an election when he has no idea what the political and economic situation will be closer to the election?
I know you think that policy should be formed based on principle but to exclude contemporary context from that is to doom it to failure.
Essentially, your position boils down to: Starmer isn't doing what I want.
That's fine but maybe just say that rather than dressing it up with points around his leadership.
SB |
dk hero worshipped a leader who was as much a threat to the tories as a damp lettuce leaf. he vehemently opposes, almost from day one, a leader who is building some momentum against the tories. it makes you wonder doesn't it. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Vote Green folks* on 09:36 - Dec 31 with 586 views | Darth_Koont |
| Vote Green folks* on 23:35 - Dec 30 by Herbivore |
We're 4 years away from an election. I know you and some other Corbynites have nailed your colours to the mast really early on but as a group it's pretty clear that you and the Corbynites aren't very representative. Starmer may well turn out to not offer anything and if that's the case I'll be disappointed and won't vote Labour. But to be claiming he's not offering anything now when we don't even have the outline of manifesto, we're miles out from a GE, and he's been leader less than a year during which Brexit and a global pandemic have dominated is really quite bizarre. |
It’s the perfect time surely? As I’ve said, if it comes to a straight choice in a GE between the Tories and Labour then of course there’s no doubt Starmer would get my vote.
But until then he has to be much stronger in shaping the debate and representing a genuine alternative. So far he’s been awful on that score by pivoting towards social conservatism with a deeply limited focus on “family, nation and opportunity”.
I don’t buy what Starmer says and I don’t trust him based on how quickly he’s shifted away from his pledges and his pretence at unity. For me he’s showing himself to be exactly the sort of politician that’s sleepwalked us into becoming a divided and unequal country in 2020.
I don’t even think it’s going to work electorally despite appealing to racist homeowners and an Establishment-leaning media that has given him a relatively free ride. When the Tories start to ramp up the identity politics and come out with stuff like the recent frightful guff about “levelling up” the country because we’re now out of the EU, then Starmer will have nowhere to go. But if he owned the discussion about decades of structurally weak government policy and poor investment in people and the economy then he’d have the basis to attack. And command the sort of attention that his lack of charisma denies (not a problem in a serious politician but a fatal one in a politician trading in superficial, performative stuff).
He’s got time to sort himself out but, if you believe in progressive politics as a much-needed antidote to the UK’s health and future fitness, his start has been ropy AF. | |
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| Vote Green folks* on 09:41 - Dec 31 with 580 views | bluelagos |
Some of us already do :-) |  |
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| Vote Green folks* on 09:41 - Dec 31 with 579 views | jas0999 |
Personally feel Starmer is right to support the deal. |  | | |
| Vote Green folks* on 09:49 - Dec 31 with 560 views | Darth_Koont |
| Vote Green folks* on 09:17 - Dec 31 by StokieBlue |
I still don't understand this (and I know we had discussed it many times) but what exactly is the point in Starmer offering policies many years before an election when he has no idea what the political and economic situation will be closer to the election?
I know you think that policy should be formed based on principle but to exclude contemporary context from that is to doom it to failure.
Essentially, your position boils down to: Starmer isn't doing what I want.
That's fine but maybe just say that rather than dressing it up with points around his leadership.
SB |
I was responding to Herbivore but I think that covers most of it.
And of course I don’t expect detailed, costed policies at this stage but I do expect leadership in the debate and a focus on the actual issues in the UK rather than the perceived or manufactured ones. Scottish independence and indeed Brexit are issues that have come about by ignoring the underlying structural issues and imbalances in the UK.
On that score, Starmer has been a massive letdown and hasn’t attempted to frame the debate in terms of his pledges at all. If that shows that he’s a shrewd politician and knows what to say to get elected as Labour leader and now knows what to say to get Labour into power then that works on a certain level. But that sort of performative stuff is exactly why we are where we are today. [Post edited 31 Dec 2020 9:55]
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| Vote Green folks* on 09:54 - Dec 31 with 551 views | Darth_Koont |
| Vote Green folks* on 09:22 - Dec 31 by lowhouseblue |
dk hero worshipped a leader who was as much a threat to the tories as a damp lettuce leaf. he vehemently opposes, almost from day one, a leader who is building some momentum against the tories. it makes you wonder doesn't it. |
You confuse “hero worship” with being finally excited by transformative and much-needed policies to make the UK a better place to live – and before it tears itself apart.
But I can see why a vacuous party political ghoul like you doesn’t get that. 😉 | |
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| Vote Green folks* on 09:55 - Dec 31 with 548 views | StokieBlue |
| Vote Green folks* on 09:49 - Dec 31 by Darth_Koont |
I was responding to Herbivore but I think that covers most of it.
And of course I don’t expect detailed, costed policies at this stage but I do expect leadership in the debate and a focus on the actual issues in the UK rather than the perceived or manufactured ones. Scottish independence and indeed Brexit are issues that have come about by ignoring the underlying structural issues and imbalances in the UK.
On that score, Starmer has been a massive letdown and hasn’t attempted to frame the debate in terms of his pledges at all. If that shows that he’s a shrewd politician and knows what to say to get elected as Labour leader and now knows what to say to get Labour into power then that works on a certain level. But that sort of performative stuff is exactly why we are where we are today. [Post edited 31 Dec 2020 9:55]
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But as numerous others have pointed out, if he states firm pledges now but they aren't achievable due to the context at the time of the next election (both political and economic) then people will accuse him of backtracking on his pledges and the media will be all over it.
In the end it's fine and possibly even right to frame the debate like you want but if it results in not achieving power it's essentially pointless because framing the debate isn't going to move the Tories in many of their policies.
It just seems a very idealist approach rather than a practical one. Is the middle of a pandemic the right time to be concentrating on policy and pledges?
SB [Post edited 31 Dec 2020 9:56]
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| Vote Green folks* on 10:06 - Dec 31 with 526 views | Darth_Koont |
| Vote Green folks* on 09:55 - Dec 31 by StokieBlue |
But as numerous others have pointed out, if he states firm pledges now but they aren't achievable due to the context at the time of the next election (both political and economic) then people will accuse him of backtracking on his pledges and the media will be all over it.
In the end it's fine and possibly even right to frame the debate like you want but if it results in not achieving power it's essentially pointless because framing the debate isn't going to move the Tories in many of their policies.
It just seems a very idealist approach rather than a practical one. Is the middle of a pandemic the right time to be concentrating on policy and pledges?
SB [Post edited 31 Dec 2020 9:56]
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Wait a minute. If none of this matters now then what were people tearing into Corbyn about from 2015 onwards?
I think you’d be more than a little disingenuous if you said that wasn’t about what Corbyn stood for and talked about. I have no problem with the principle of that because that’s what made me a supporter. Now my initial support for Starmer thinking he could be the best of both worlds (Establishment enough but with a commitment to progressive politics) has taken a battering based on his performance. Now I think he’s Establishment enough to block progressive politics. | |
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| Vote Green folks* on 10:17 - Dec 31 with 497 views | StokieBlue |
| Vote Green folks* on 10:06 - Dec 31 by Darth_Koont |
Wait a minute. If none of this matters now then what were people tearing into Corbyn about from 2015 onwards?
I think you’d be more than a little disingenuous if you said that wasn’t about what Corbyn stood for and talked about. I have no problem with the principle of that because that’s what made me a supporter. Now my initial support for Starmer thinking he could be the best of both worlds (Establishment enough but with a commitment to progressive politics) has taken a battering based on his performance. Now I think he’s Establishment enough to block progressive politics. |
Context?
One wasn't in the middle of a pandemic and after Brexit with a pretty rubbish deal. The outlook in 2015 whilst not stable was far more stable than what we have at the moment, the referendum wasn't even until 2016 and realistically remain was expecting to win.
SB [Post edited 31 Dec 2020 10:21]
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