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Loving Starmer's..... on 18:56 - Jan 6 by Darth_Koont
As you say it’s particular political associations that have tarnished it. And certainly the Union Jack doesn’t have quite the same easy symbolism of unity and pride for a lot of Scots, Irish, Welsh and minorities.
But there are a vast many situations (genuinely inclusive national or sporting events mostly) where it’s absolutely fine. And I can even have a mini-blub myself when it’s raised at medal ceremonies.
It feels cheap in mainstream politics though. And especially for a social internationalist movement. But it’s all part of Starmer’s performative campaign to triangulate around nation while appealing to Little Englanders on every issue ... and seemingly ignoring those who Labour should be fighting hardest for. Case in point:
Again it’s not the flag but what it represents to those using it.
Is that a legit Ipsos Mori poll? That account has been known to tweet out polls that can't be found anywhere else. For example they tweeted one after the election that claimed only 2% of Labour defectors did so because of Corbyn - I googled it, and checked the website of the polling organisation, but couldn't find it.
However if that's true those figures are very concerning and the party needs to build bridges with BAME voters.
Is that a legit Ipsos Mori poll? That account has been known to tweet out polls that can't be found anywhere else. For example they tweeted one after the election that claimed only 2% of Labour defectors did so because of Corbyn - I googled it, and checked the website of the polling organisation, but couldn't find it.
However if that's true those figures are very concerning and the party needs to build bridges with BAME voters.
From what I've seen in Tower Hamlets, Starmer is not popular at all within the Bangladeshi community (aside from our local MP who is completely devoted to him). They are still angry with how Corbyn was treated when he was leader, as he was seen as very much being on their side. The Labour group running the council (dominated by people on the right of the party) are also not terribly popular locally with what should be their electoral base, which is a bit worrying given Lutfur Rahman keeps threatening to make a comeback, and (a bit like the SNP) is seen as someone who will implement 'proper' Labour policies. I think the fear of losing to him or another left-independent candidate is one of the main reasons they are trying to get the mayoral system abolished before the next elections.
Personally I'm very disappointed with him. Having said that, I don't think either of the other leadership candidates would have been much better, for differing reasons.
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Loving Starmer's..... on 07:11 - Jan 7 with 1434 views
Is that a legit Ipsos Mori poll? That account has been known to tweet out polls that can't be found anywhere else. For example they tweeted one after the election that claimed only 2% of Labour defectors did so because of Corbyn - I googled it, and checked the website of the polling organisation, but couldn't find it.
However if that's true those figures are very concerning and the party needs to build bridges with BAME voters.
Or as Billy Bragg would say, BAME voters have work to do to rebuild trust with Starmer.
Edit, for the avoidance of doubt, I dint subscribe to the above view.
From what I've seen in Tower Hamlets, Starmer is not popular at all within the Bangladeshi community (aside from our local MP who is completely devoted to him). They are still angry with how Corbyn was treated when he was leader, as he was seen as very much being on their side. The Labour group running the council (dominated by people on the right of the party) are also not terribly popular locally with what should be their electoral base, which is a bit worrying given Lutfur Rahman keeps threatening to make a comeback, and (a bit like the SNP) is seen as someone who will implement 'proper' Labour policies. I think the fear of losing to him or another left-independent candidate is one of the main reasons they are trying to get the mayoral system abolished before the next elections.
Personally I'm very disappointed with him. Having said that, I don't think either of the other leadership candidates would have been much better, for differing reasons.
How is Rahman not in jail!? Attacking democracy?
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Loving Starmer's..... on 12:29 - Jan 7 with 1358 views
Nonsense. Even the EU do the flag thing. It's harmless and perfectly acceptable, especially when one of the criticisms leveled at Corbyn was that he hated this country. I never bought into that idea but many did and lets face it, with the numbers needed to get into number 10 you need the support of some people who you might not entirely agree with.
You can make the situation better or you can contribute to an even worse outcome and bitch about it on the internet.
You may as well compare it to use of the rainbow flag!
"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
Is that a legit Ipsos Mori poll? That account has been known to tweet out polls that can't be found anywhere else. For example they tweeted one after the election that claimed only 2% of Labour defectors did so because of Corbyn - I googled it, and checked the website of the polling organisation, but couldn't find it.
However if that's true those figures are very concerning and the party needs to build bridges with BAME voters.
It appears to be compiled from the detailed data sets from different Ipsos MORI polls throughout the year. It’s also based on just 120-130 people so a snapshot at best.
But it reflects what I’ve seen and read (like Clapham’s article). That article about Starmer’s fudging of the response to BLM was also before Labour islamophobia was largely sidestepped and before we realised how deep into the long grass of the Forde inquiry the Labour leaks was kicked.
I am definitely not saying Starmer et al are racists but casually taking BAME voters and their concerns for granted while courting a Little Englander vote doesn’t seem a very smart move. In fact, Labour taking votes for granted has probably been the defining characteristic of the past few decades and why they struggle against even an awful Tory party.
[Post edited 7 Jan 2021 12:45]
Pronouns: He/Him
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Loving Starmer's..... on 12:43 - Jan 7 with 1335 views
From what I've seen in Tower Hamlets, Starmer is not popular at all within the Bangladeshi community (aside from our local MP who is completely devoted to him). They are still angry with how Corbyn was treated when he was leader, as he was seen as very much being on their side. The Labour group running the council (dominated by people on the right of the party) are also not terribly popular locally with what should be their electoral base, which is a bit worrying given Lutfur Rahman keeps threatening to make a comeback, and (a bit like the SNP) is seen as someone who will implement 'proper' Labour policies. I think the fear of losing to him or another left-independent candidate is one of the main reasons they are trying to get the mayoral system abolished before the next elections.
Personally I'm very disappointed with him. Having said that, I don't think either of the other leadership candidates would have been much better, for differing reasons.
Agree with your last line. And in that sense, Starmer pitching himself as the unity candidate who pledged to keep campaigning on a progressive platform didn’t just seem like the only viable choice but a positive one.
But since taking over the reins ... I’ve felt more and more duped.
Loving Starmer's..... on 12:33 - Jan 7 by Darth_Koont
It appears to be compiled from the detailed data sets from different Ipsos MORI polls throughout the year. It’s also based on just 120-130 people so a snapshot at best.
But it reflects what I’ve seen and read (like Clapham’s article). That article about Starmer’s fudging of the response to BLM was also before Labour islamophobia was largely sidestepped and before we realised how deep into the long grass of the Forde inquiry the Labour leaks was kicked.
I am definitely not saying Starmer et al are racists but casually taking BAME voters and their concerns for granted while courting a Little Englander vote doesn’t seem a very smart move. In fact, Labour taking votes for granted has probably been the defining characteristic of the past few decades and why they struggle against even an awful Tory party.
[Post edited 7 Jan 2021 12:45]
What kind of response would you have liked to see from the leadership about BLM?
What kind of response would you have liked to see from the leadership about BLM?
Make the “moral case for socialism” he pledged and address the systemic issues affecting minorities in the wider UK society.
Not what he did, which was to get a photo op on one knee and then promptly reduce BLM to a US police brutality “moment” across the Atlantic. And play up to the Marxist silliness too.
Quite apart from questioning his principles, I also think it was politically botched as he p!ssed off both sides it seems.
Pronouns: He/Him
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Loving Starmer's..... on 19:41 - Jan 7 with 1268 views
Loving Starmer's..... on 19:37 - Jan 7 by Darth_Koont
Make the “moral case for socialism” he pledged and address the systemic issues affecting minorities in the wider UK society.
Not what he did, which was to get a photo op on one knee and then promptly reduce BLM to a US police brutality “moment” across the Atlantic. And play up to the Marxist silliness too.
Quite apart from questioning his principles, I also think it was politically botched as he p!ssed off both sides it seems.
Hello Koonty
How are you doing?
“Hello, I'm your MP. Actually I'm not. I'm your candidate. Gosh.”
Boris Johnson canvassing in Henley, 2005.
Loving Starmer's..... on 19:45 - Jan 7 by Darth_Koont
Not so bad.
You?
As Larry David would say - Pretty, pretty, pretty good.
Still love to have a pint with you at some point.
While I have you, and just say no if you can't be arsed to discuss at the moment, but....
If I recall you are an advocate of an independent Scotland and whilst from a personal point of view I would feel sad about this I would of course accept the vote
Hooever - how on earth would we handle the border situation and how would you get your goods?
I'm genuinely not on a wind up, I am just interested as ultimately I think it will happen.
God knows who is going to take Wales on.
“Hello, I'm your MP. Actually I'm not. I'm your candidate. Gosh.”
Boris Johnson canvassing in Henley, 2005.
Loving Starmer's..... on 20:04 - Jan 7 by Lord_Lucan
As Larry David would say - Pretty, pretty, pretty good.
Still love to have a pint with you at some point.
While I have you, and just say no if you can't be arsed to discuss at the moment, but....
If I recall you are an advocate of an independent Scotland and whilst from a personal point of view I would feel sad about this I would of course accept the vote
Hooever - how on earth would we handle the border situation and how would you get your goods?
I'm genuinely not on a wind up, I am just interested as ultimately I think it will happen.
Loving Starmer's..... on 19:37 - Jan 7 by Darth_Koont
Make the “moral case for socialism” he pledged and address the systemic issues affecting minorities in the wider UK society.
Not what he did, which was to get a photo op on one knee and then promptly reduce BLM to a US police brutality “moment” across the Atlantic. And play up to the Marxist silliness too.
Quite apart from questioning his principles, I also think it was politically botched as he p!ssed off both sides it seems.
Policy wise what would that mean for you though? I'm still not clear on what you're requesting.
I think the response to the "moment" thing was largely an overreaction. It was a moment in the sense that it was a poignant symbol of brutality, and something that was a turning point in giving the issue worldwide recognition.
I'm not sure where he ever mentioned Marxism? Would like to see a link there, I can't see one on google myself.
Policy wise what would that mean for you though? I'm still not clear on what you're requesting.
I think the response to the "moment" thing was largely an overreaction. It was a moment in the sense that it was a poignant symbol of brutality, and something that was a turning point in giving the issue worldwide recognition.
I'm not sure where he ever mentioned Marxism? Would like to see a link there, I can't see one on google myself.
Starmer disagreed with the "defund the police" tag line for the same reason that Obama did.
Yes but NI and Ireland has ports that can accept large amounts of containers albeit via Rotterdam
Scotland hasn't got that capability and because of our proximity there is so much business back and forth that I cannot see how any sort of EU customs border would work.
“Hello, I'm your MP. Actually I'm not. I'm your candidate. Gosh.”
Boris Johnson canvassing in Henley, 2005.
Policy wise what would that mean for you though? I'm still not clear on what you're requesting.
I think the response to the "moment" thing was largely an overreaction. It was a moment in the sense that it was a poignant symbol of brutality, and something that was a turning point in giving the issue worldwide recognition.
I'm not sure where he ever mentioned Marxism? Would like to see a link there, I can't see one on google myself.
He didn’t say Marxism but he clearly said he wanted to move away from the organisation itself. And no doubt why he was at pains to call it a “moment” rather than a movement. And he dismissed the Defund the police proposal out of hand as “nonsense” when he knows it’s not about disbanding the police but diverting funds towards social programmes and other forms of crime prevention.
That all plays up to Farage and others who are dismissing this as agitation by dangerous Marxists.
Loving Starmer's..... on 20:52 - Jan 7 by Darth_Koont
He didn’t say Marxism but he clearly said he wanted to move away from the organisation itself. And no doubt why he was at pains to call it a “moment” rather than a movement. And he dismissed the Defund the police proposal out of hand as “nonsense” when he knows it’s not about disbanding the police but diverting funds towards social programmes and other forms of crime prevention.
That all plays up to Farage and others who are dismissing this as agitation by dangerous Marxists.
Moving away from the organisation and focusing on the goal of reducing racial inequality is a good thing to do. It removes the attack angle away from the likes of Farage, because they can't conflate anti-racism with Marxism, and if they do it shows their racist agenda.
I know what it means but "Defund the Police" is an awful slogan. Its' meaning is entirely different to what it seems at first glance and therefore alienates people - the point of a slogan is to be an easily identifiable and unifying soundbite. Besides, in the UK the police should get more funding, not less. The Labour Party has rightly spent the last 3 election campaigns opposing the Tories for their defunding of the police, so to row back from that position, when it's the right thing ( and popular with both the membership and the general public) would be absurd. Social programmes should be funded too, but there's no reason why Labour can't campaign for both.
Loving Starmer's..... on 20:04 - Jan 7 by Lord_Lucan
As Larry David would say - Pretty, pretty, pretty good.
Still love to have a pint with you at some point.
While I have you, and just say no if you can't be arsed to discuss at the moment, but....
If I recall you are an advocate of an independent Scotland and whilst from a personal point of view I would feel sad about this I would of course accept the vote
Hooever - how on earth would we handle the border situation and how would you get your goods?
I'm genuinely not on a wind up, I am just interested as ultimately I think it will happen.
God knows who is going to take Wales on.
Aah Larry ... me and the daughters were talking about re-watching the lot again (their 2nd time, my 3rd). Feels like we need him in our lives! What’s been interesting was how utterly unmoved they were by Seinfeld – and I sort of see their point now.
We should have a beer and spend most of the time talking about Curb!
As far as Scotland and the border goes, I don’t know exactly how it will work. It’s complicated because there’ll likely be a simultaneous transition from being part of the UK and into the EU over a few years. With something like Norway or Switzerland’s EEA membership as the main goal I imagine.
Not sure the border itself or transit is a huge issue. Customs transits are done all the time throughout the world and the actual Scottish-English border is pretty easy to control because of the border country and pretty limited crossings. Although I’m guessing some RFID for goods and electronic passports for people arrangement would be the easiest solution in the long term.
So essentially goods would be physically transported the same way as currently but there’d have to be a customs solution implemented and preferably automated.
Pronouns: He/Him
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Loving Starmer's..... on 21:23 - Jan 7 with 1102 views
Moving away from the organisation and focusing on the goal of reducing racial inequality is a good thing to do. It removes the attack angle away from the likes of Farage, because they can't conflate anti-racism with Marxism, and if they do it shows their racist agenda.
I know what it means but "Defund the Police" is an awful slogan. Its' meaning is entirely different to what it seems at first glance and therefore alienates people - the point of a slogan is to be an easily identifiable and unifying soundbite. Besides, in the UK the police should get more funding, not less. The Labour Party has rightly spent the last 3 election campaigns opposing the Tories for their defunding of the police, so to row back from that position, when it's the right thing ( and popular with both the membership and the general public) would be absurd. Social programmes should be funded too, but there's no reason why Labour can't campaign for both.
Starker knows it’s more than a slogan though. And to dismiss it as nonsense was crass. He doesn’t have to agree with social programmes and other forms of crime prevention instead but he chose to hang them out to dry.
The pushback evidently caused him to do some damage limitation but he still sidestepped the systemic issue himself. It was Marsha De Cordova, the shadow secretary for women and equalities, that said: "Across the board, the government has been told time and again what needs to be done, but has failed to do a decent job of taking action. "We cannot wait any longer to address the deep-rooted systemic racial inequalities across our society."
What did she mean by address exactly? We can’t really say but this should have come from the leader of the party anyway and unequivocally. That he prevaricated on this subject and got himself in a bit of a mess is a worry to me when we’re talking about an effective opposition leader. But as a statement of un-intent towards the BAME communities and his real focus it must have felt soul-destroying.
Pronouns: He/Him
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Loving Starmer's..... on 21:25 - Jan 7 with 1096 views
Loving Starmer's..... on 21:07 - Jan 7 by Darth_Koont
Aah Larry ... me and the daughters were talking about re-watching the lot again (their 2nd time, my 3rd). Feels like we need him in our lives! What’s been interesting was how utterly unmoved they were by Seinfeld – and I sort of see their point now.
We should have a beer and spend most of the time talking about Curb!
As far as Scotland and the border goes, I don’t know exactly how it will work. It’s complicated because there’ll likely be a simultaneous transition from being part of the UK and into the EU over a few years. With something like Norway or Switzerland’s EEA membership as the main goal I imagine.
Not sure the border itself or transit is a huge issue. Customs transits are done all the time throughout the world and the actual Scottish-English border is pretty easy to control because of the border country and pretty limited crossings. Although I’m guessing some RFID for goods and electronic passports for people arrangement would be the easiest solution in the long term.
So essentially goods would be physically transported the same way as currently but there’d have to be a customs solution implemented and preferably automated.
I'm starting to get into the zonked situation at this time DK so if it's ok I'll look at this is the morn - if I remember
Hooever - on to more important things - Excellent to hear that you and yours are Larry fans, unfortunately my nearest and dearest don't seem to have the capacity to get it. My favourite one is when Suzie goes to give Larry a hard time and Loretta gives her the heave ho.
Seinfield - never seen it, should I? Genuine answer requested.
“Hello, I'm your MP. Actually I'm not. I'm your candidate. Gosh.”
Boris Johnson canvassing in Henley, 2005.
Loving Starmer's..... on 21:25 - Jan 7 by Lord_Lucan
I'm starting to get into the zonked situation at this time DK so if it's ok I'll look at this is the morn - if I remember
Hooever - on to more important things - Excellent to hear that you and yours are Larry fans, unfortunately my nearest and dearest don't seem to have the capacity to get it. My favourite one is when Suzie goes to give Larry a hard time and Loretta gives her the heave ho.
Seinfield - never seen it, should I? Genuine answer requested.
That’s a great one. As is the one where Suzie turns up at the restaurant while Larry is trying to cover for the chef with Tourette’s ... beautiful stuff. And of course any episode with Leon and Larry talking about anything.
Seinfeld’s good, I think. And you may like it but to me feels more and more like mainstream Larry (Like Curb crossed with Friends) so be prepared.
Pronouns: He/Him
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Loving Starmer's..... on 21:43 - Jan 7 with 1061 views
Loving Starmer's..... on 21:35 - Jan 7 by Darth_Koont
That’s a great one. As is the one where Suzie turns up at the restaurant while Larry is trying to cover for the chef with Tourette’s ... beautiful stuff. And of course any episode with Leon and Larry talking about anything.
Seinfeld’s good, I think. And you may like it but to me feels more and more like mainstream Larry (Like Curb crossed with Friends) so be prepared.
Leon is an absolute star - as is Suzie
I wan't to watch it now but inexplicably it's not on Amazon or Netflix and I am in enemy territory until Saturday with no access to saved stuff on Sky.
I'm also now officially tired so I'm going to watch The Jam.
I bid you good evening my Scottish brother.
“Hello, I'm your MP. Actually I'm not. I'm your candidate. Gosh.”
Boris Johnson canvassing in Henley, 2005.
Loving Starmer's..... on 21:43 - Jan 7 by Lord_Lucan
Leon is an absolute star - as is Suzie
I wan't to watch it now but inexplicably it's not on Amazon or Netflix and I am in enemy territory until Saturday with no access to saved stuff on Sky.
I'm also now officially tired so I'm going to watch The Jam.
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