| Loving Starmer's..... 19:01 - Jan 5 with 8819 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
.....retro NF look!
Vacuous turd.....the public gets what the public wants! [Post edited 5 Jan 2021 19:04]
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| Loving Starmer's..... on 13:23 - Jan 6 with 1655 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Loving Starmer's..... on 13:18 - Jan 6 by MattinLondon |
Noel Gallagher plays a Union Jack (flag) guitar- cool.
Fat bloke wears Union Jack boxers on a beach whilst on holiday - sad.
Olympic medalist unravels flag on a lap of honour - national pride.
Opposition leader has flag in the background - people accuse him of looking like he’s in the NF.
Fascinating to read people’s interpretation of the flag. I know it’s all about context, but the mere fact that a flag, simply in camera shot, can provoke such a reaction is pathetic. When you look at other countries their political leaders all have their national flags in the background. It doesn’t really mean anything sinister at all. |
Largely agree. The way the Union came into being and England's dominant role in that does add a certain extra context to the backlash from some quarters though. |  |
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| Loving Starmer's..... on 13:25 - Jan 6 with 1649 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Loving Starmer's..... on 13:18 - Jan 6 by MattinLondon |
Noel Gallagher plays a Union Jack (flag) guitar- cool.
Fat bloke wears Union Jack boxers on a beach whilst on holiday - sad.
Olympic medalist unravels flag on a lap of honour - national pride.
Opposition leader has flag in the background - people accuse him of looking like he’s in the NF.
Fascinating to read people’s interpretation of the flag. I know it’s all about context, but the mere fact that a flag, simply in camera shot, can provoke such a reaction is pathetic. When you look at other countries their political leaders all have their national flags in the background. It doesn’t really mean anything sinister at all. |
I wonder if they would have the same issue with Merkel in front of a German flag?
Or simply an attempt to undermine their competent leader? [Post edited 6 Jan 2021 13:45]
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| Loving Starmer's..... on 13:39 - Jan 6 with 1627 views | SonOfSpock |
| Loving Starmer's..... on 20:00 - Jan 5 by J2BLUE |
So far I am unimpressed with him to be honest but he would still be a massive upgrade on Johnson. |
My Nan is a better upgrade - she's been dead 25 years.. |  | | |
| Loving Starmer's..... on 13:44 - Jan 6 with 1610 views | MattinLondon |
| Loving Starmer's..... on 13:23 - Jan 6 by Swansea_Blue |
Largely agree. The way the Union came into being and England's dominant role in that does add a certain extra context to the backlash from some quarters though. |
That’s a good point which I didn’t really consider at all. |  | | |
| Loving Starmer's..... on 13:50 - Jan 6 with 1589 views | MattinLondon |
| Loving Starmer's..... on 13:25 - Jan 6 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
I wonder if they would have the same issue with Merkel in front of a German flag?
Or simply an attempt to undermine their competent leader? [Post edited 6 Jan 2021 13:45]
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Probably not. Put a Star of David on it and some of them will. | | | |
| Loving Starmer's..... on 14:57 - Jan 6 with 1560 views | Darth_Koont |
| Loving Starmer's..... on 23:04 - Jan 5 by jeera |
The point of the flag is we are supposed to be a union and it's going to be a sad looking figure if or when Scotland, and/or Wales/NI decide to separate completely.
I am all for inclusivity (as you know).
But despite being with you all the way in spirit, that parties should stand by their principles and try to get elected off the back of them, we know from experience the public don't accept that.
Principles alone don't get you elected. They should, but they don't.
Sometimes you have no choice but to play to the crowd, and as ugly as it may be, if you want change buddy, it has to be done from the inside, and first you have to get yourself there.
Don't think for one moment I approve of those methods, but the way it's all set-up, you have to play the game. [Post edited 5 Jan 2021 23:06]
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Sorry about that. Got bogged down in work stuff.
You’re of course absolutely right about the way the game is set up. But I’ve been hearing the same argument re: playing the game and changing from within since the early 80s when Kinnock was purging the left and trying to appeal to the centre.
Kinnock played the game but got crucified anyway. It took 17 years of the Tories and a hugely divisive Thatcher to shift towards a Labour government – and that was only achieved by Blair promising the press barons and the Establishment to protect capital and the neoliberal dogma that had set in.
Cut to 13 years later and very little had changed and British society and economy’s structural imbalances and injustices were still widening - despite a period of strong growth in the global economy. Yes, New Labour made good advances around certain civil rights but the direction of travel as a whole was absolutely set in stone now. Then those on the inside and playing the game doubled down with austerity (the press were pushing for this too). Now, post-crash, with people and regions more aware of how they were being left behind we get An even stronger move for Scottish independence and the other side of the same coin, a deeply damaging Brexit.
This was all from playing the game. And we’ve similarly ended up with Johnson as PM and an empty suit in opposition. Because it’s still about the game.
But the reality is that our democracy is not going to work as the plaything of a centre-right Establishment, and the centre-right press and centre-right politics that backs them up/is indistinguishable from the Establishment anyway.
Not only has that model got a pretty poor track record over the past few decades as widespread disillusionment and disenfranchisement, not to mention actual measures like poverty and productivity, reveal the lie. But it’s already been rejected and replaced by a new democracy and new movements. Westminster are literally nowhere when it comes to independence movements away from the Union. They were nowhere when it came to Brexit that they themselves unwittingly seeded with populist small-minded rhetoric around the EU and immigration over decades. They were nowhere when it comes to BLM, systemic racism and the reality of being a minority in Modern Britain - they can’t even call out islamophobia as that’s all part of the game nowadays. And, crucially, they’re nowhere when it comes to addressing the future like climate change, automation, AI, aging population and the hopes of a younger, more savvy generation that they are completely out of step with
In that overall scenario, we need politicians who are going to challenge the game and the status quo. Who else is going to do that? Within England that’s an oppositional void just waiting for these identity nutters like Laurence Fox and Farage (again) to dictate the narrative and protect privelege.
And it’s within that scenario that I find an opposition leader leaning into the full-on flagshagging, cosy Establishment version of the game most distressing. He still has 3+ years to campaign for the progressive policies he pledged (but most of which he has rowed back on or distanced himself from). And build a movement like Scottish independence, Brexit or BLM that doesn’t give a feck what the establishment thinks and outflanks it anyway.
For all the criticism of Corbynism (or democratic socialism/social democracy as I prefer to call it) this was a movement that brought back voters and challenged the status quo – so much so that it brought the most savage response from the Establishment and its self-serving, grifting lackeys that I’ve ever seen in UK politics. Starmer and those around him seem utterly determined to shut that movement right down and reset back to Blair. It’s a retrograde step in every sense and backing away from the real challenges and real representation needed in Britain 2021.
OK, I’ll bring this essay/rant to an end now. You can see why I wasn’t quite ready for it last night 😀
I expect I’ll get the usual comments (not from you, of course, even if we differ on certain points) of me just not understanding the political, social and economic reality. But the thing is I think I actually see reality (where we’ve come from and where we’re heading) a bit more clearly than them. Before wading in, I’d ask them to at least relate to the results of the past 4 decades or so of playing the political game, and the real non-political challenges ahead for the world, the UK and its citizens where we want to keep playing it. |  |
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| Loving Starmer's..... on 17:45 - Jan 6 with 1501 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Loving Starmer's..... on 09:21 - Jan 6 by giant_stow |
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Vacuous soul-less middle ground politics can be a cult too Ulla..... it's how we keep getting shafted! | |
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| Loving Starmer's..... on 17:48 - Jan 6 with 1497 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Loving Starmer's..... on 12:41 - Jan 6 by Ryorry |
They are doing so much damage. I quite often oppose them & point out that they're in effect supporting a continuation of this disastrous tory shower of sh1te, but I just end up getting called a "Red Tory" or "Tory Lite" (or worse) every time. |
I find your use of 'they' interesting! Care to define who 'they' are? | |
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| Loving Starmer's..... on 17:50 - Jan 6 with 1496 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Loving Starmer's..... on 12:49 - Jan 6 by J2BLUE |
Completely agree with you but they aren't going to listen to reason. Perhaps we need to change tactics and try to convince them that the jump from a Starmer led government to their wet dream is a lot less than the jump from the tories so they should support Starmer as part of a longer term plan to shift the political landscape.
Either that or these muppets are going to condemn us to decades of Tory rule. |
...cos that worked out really well the last time! (Bliar) | |
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| Loving Starmer's..... on 17:57 - Jan 6 with 1477 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Loving Starmer's..... on 13:18 - Jan 6 by MattinLondon |
Noel Gallagher plays a Union Jack (flag) guitar- cool.
Fat bloke wears Union Jack boxers on a beach whilst on holiday - sad.
Olympic medalist unravels flag on a lap of honour - national pride.
Opposition leader has flag in the background - people accuse him of looking like he’s in the NF.
Fascinating to read people’s interpretation of the flag. I know it’s all about context, but the mere fact that a flag, simply in camera shot, can provoke such a reaction is pathetic. When you look at other countries their political leaders all have their national flags in the background. It doesn’t really mean anything sinister at all. |
The 4th one is ....uses same imagery to appeal to the same base nationalism as the NF, BNP, Tories...but if people don't want to see it for what it is and own their misplaced jingoism then carry on!
All those other leaders are doing the same thing too, but Internationalism or something! F#ck nation states....roll on humanity! [Post edited 6 Jan 2021 17:58]
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| Loving Starmer's..... on 18:02 - Jan 6 with 1470 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Loving Starmer's..... on 14:57 - Jan 6 by Darth_Koont |
Sorry about that. Got bogged down in work stuff.
You’re of course absolutely right about the way the game is set up. But I’ve been hearing the same argument re: playing the game and changing from within since the early 80s when Kinnock was purging the left and trying to appeal to the centre.
Kinnock played the game but got crucified anyway. It took 17 years of the Tories and a hugely divisive Thatcher to shift towards a Labour government – and that was only achieved by Blair promising the press barons and the Establishment to protect capital and the neoliberal dogma that had set in.
Cut to 13 years later and very little had changed and British society and economy’s structural imbalances and injustices were still widening - despite a period of strong growth in the global economy. Yes, New Labour made good advances around certain civil rights but the direction of travel as a whole was absolutely set in stone now. Then those on the inside and playing the game doubled down with austerity (the press were pushing for this too). Now, post-crash, with people and regions more aware of how they were being left behind we get An even stronger move for Scottish independence and the other side of the same coin, a deeply damaging Brexit.
This was all from playing the game. And we’ve similarly ended up with Johnson as PM and an empty suit in opposition. Because it’s still about the game.
But the reality is that our democracy is not going to work as the plaything of a centre-right Establishment, and the centre-right press and centre-right politics that backs them up/is indistinguishable from the Establishment anyway.
Not only has that model got a pretty poor track record over the past few decades as widespread disillusionment and disenfranchisement, not to mention actual measures like poverty and productivity, reveal the lie. But it’s already been rejected and replaced by a new democracy and new movements. Westminster are literally nowhere when it comes to independence movements away from the Union. They were nowhere when it came to Brexit that they themselves unwittingly seeded with populist small-minded rhetoric around the EU and immigration over decades. They were nowhere when it comes to BLM, systemic racism and the reality of being a minority in Modern Britain - they can’t even call out islamophobia as that’s all part of the game nowadays. And, crucially, they’re nowhere when it comes to addressing the future like climate change, automation, AI, aging population and the hopes of a younger, more savvy generation that they are completely out of step with
In that overall scenario, we need politicians who are going to challenge the game and the status quo. Who else is going to do that? Within England that’s an oppositional void just waiting for these identity nutters like Laurence Fox and Farage (again) to dictate the narrative and protect privelege.
And it’s within that scenario that I find an opposition leader leaning into the full-on flagshagging, cosy Establishment version of the game most distressing. He still has 3+ years to campaign for the progressive policies he pledged (but most of which he has rowed back on or distanced himself from). And build a movement like Scottish independence, Brexit or BLM that doesn’t give a feck what the establishment thinks and outflanks it anyway.
For all the criticism of Corbynism (or democratic socialism/social democracy as I prefer to call it) this was a movement that brought back voters and challenged the status quo – so much so that it brought the most savage response from the Establishment and its self-serving, grifting lackeys that I’ve ever seen in UK politics. Starmer and those around him seem utterly determined to shut that movement right down and reset back to Blair. It’s a retrograde step in every sense and backing away from the real challenges and real representation needed in Britain 2021.
OK, I’ll bring this essay/rant to an end now. You can see why I wasn’t quite ready for it last night 😀
I expect I’ll get the usual comments (not from you, of course, even if we differ on certain points) of me just not understanding the political, social and economic reality. But the thing is I think I actually see reality (where we’ve come from and where we’re heading) a bit more clearly than them. Before wading in, I’d ask them to at least relate to the results of the past 4 decades or so of playing the political game, and the real non-political challenges ahead for the world, the UK and its citizens where we want to keep playing it. |
There you go....the long version of my OP! | |
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| Loving Starmer's..... on 18:04 - Jan 6 with 1461 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Loving Starmer's..... on 18:02 - Jan 6 by GlasgowBlue |
Yeah but you're the bloke who once said on here that he couldn't understand why Jewish people, groups and organisations around the word use the Star of David as their symbol because they are copying the Israeli flag  |
I think your archivist is letting you down...I look forward to your grovelling apology.....
...as if. | |
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| Loving Starmer's..... on 18:11 - Jan 6 with 1451 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Loving Starmer's..... on 18:04 - Jan 6 by BanksterDebtSlave |
I think your archivist is letting you down...I look forward to your grovelling apology.....
...as if. |
When Steve M posted about an antisemitic misuse of an image featuring the star of David. your reply was "but at what point did the star of David come to represent Jews rather than the Israeli state"? |  |
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| Loving Starmer's..... on 18:17 - Jan 6 with 1437 views | MattinLondon |
| Loving Starmer's..... on 17:57 - Jan 6 by BanksterDebtSlave |
The 4th one is ....uses same imagery to appeal to the same base nationalism as the NF, BNP, Tories...but if people don't want to see it for what it is and own their misplaced jingoism then carry on!
All those other leaders are doing the same thing too, but Internationalism or something! F#ck nation states....roll on humanity! [Post edited 6 Jan 2021 17:58]
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I was surprised that he had the flag in the background and you’re probably right that he used it in order to appeal to some nationalist sentiment. I took issue with your assertion that the flag is always associated with the NF. It’s not.
Having a sense of national pride doesn’t mean that that person is jingoistic in tone - it’s a tad childish to come to that conclusion. I’m sure many people are capable to have national pride whilst still having sympathies to ‘leftbumfest’ believes. | | | |
| Loving Starmer's..... on 18:22 - Jan 6 with 1412 views | wkj |
| Loving Starmer's..... on 18:17 - Jan 6 by MattinLondon |
I was surprised that he had the flag in the background and you’re probably right that he used it in order to appeal to some nationalist sentiment. I took issue with your assertion that the flag is always associated with the NF. It’s not.
Having a sense of national pride doesn’t mean that that person is jingoistic in tone - it’s a tad childish to come to that conclusion. I’m sure many people are capable to have national pride whilst still having sympathies to ‘leftbumfest’ believes. |
Quite. I have many in my family who fought under the union flag and it irritates me when the BNP types hype it to be their symbol of hatred, similarly it dismays me when people can't see it as a symbol of unity and pride either.
The union flag is not evil, those who respect it are not evil. Evil twits are evil when they hijack our heritage. |  |
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| Loving Starmer's..... on 18:51 - Jan 6 with 1395 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Loving Starmer's..... on 18:11 - Jan 6 by GlasgowBlue |
When Steve M posted about an antisemitic misuse of an image featuring the star of David. your reply was "but at what point did the star of David come to represent Jews rather than the Israeli state"? |
...already different to your first claim then, so let me see the thread and at least the whole sentence/ paragraph. Hope you pay the archivist well! | |
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| Loving Starmer's..... on 18:53 - Jan 6 with 1389 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Loving Starmer's..... on 18:17 - Jan 6 by MattinLondon |
I was surprised that he had the flag in the background and you’re probably right that he used it in order to appeal to some nationalist sentiment. I took issue with your assertion that the flag is always associated with the NF. It’s not.
Having a sense of national pride doesn’t mean that that person is jingoistic in tone - it’s a tad childish to come to that conclusion. I’m sure many people are capable to have national pride whilst still having sympathies to ‘leftbumfest’ believes. |
The association is mine, no more nor less, it is what I am reminded of in any politically appropriated context. The desired association is the same whoever uses it. | |
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| Loving Starmer's..... on 18:56 - Jan 6 with 1384 views | Darth_Koont |
| Loving Starmer's..... on 18:22 - Jan 6 by wkj |
Quite. I have many in my family who fought under the union flag and it irritates me when the BNP types hype it to be their symbol of hatred, similarly it dismays me when people can't see it as a symbol of unity and pride either.
The union flag is not evil, those who respect it are not evil. Evil twits are evil when they hijack our heritage. |
As you say it’s particular political associations that have tarnished it. And certainly the Union Jack doesn’t have quite the same easy symbolism of unity and pride for a lot of Scots, Irish, Welsh and minorities.
But there are a vast many situations (genuinely inclusive national or sporting events mostly) where it’s absolutely fine. And I can even have a mini-blub myself when it’s raised at medal ceremonies.
It feels cheap in mainstream politics though. And especially for a social internationalist movement. But it’s all part of Starmer’s performative campaign to triangulate around nation while appealing to Little Englanders on every issue ... and seemingly ignoring those who Labour should be fighting hardest for. Case in point:
Again it’s not the flag but what it represents to those using it. | |
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| Loving Starmer's..... on 20:00 - Jan 6 with 1345 views | giant_stow |
| Loving Starmer's..... on 18:56 - Jan 6 by Darth_Koont |
As you say it’s particular political associations that have tarnished it. And certainly the Union Jack doesn’t have quite the same easy symbolism of unity and pride for a lot of Scots, Irish, Welsh and minorities.
But there are a vast many situations (genuinely inclusive national or sporting events mostly) where it’s absolutely fine. And I can even have a mini-blub myself when it’s raised at medal ceremonies.
It feels cheap in mainstream politics though. And especially for a social internationalist movement. But it’s all part of Starmer’s performative campaign to triangulate around nation while appealing to Little Englanders on every issue ... and seemingly ignoring those who Labour should be fighting hardest for. Case in point:
Again it’s not the flag but what it represents to those using it. |
A lot of those 'little englanders' are labour voters.
Turn your back on them if you want, but it doesnt result in an inclusive 'movement' |  |
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| Loving Starmer's..... on 20:15 - Jan 6 with 1338 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Loving Starmer's..... on 20:00 - Jan 6 by giant_stow |
A lot of those 'little englanders' are labour voters.
Turn your back on them if you want, but it doesnt result in an inclusive 'movement' |
This whole thread is like a comedy.
It's the sort of thing you would see on The Comic Strip Presents.................... |  |
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| Loving Starmer's..... on 20:36 - Jan 6 with 1305 views | Darth_Koont |
| Loving Starmer's..... on 20:00 - Jan 6 by giant_stow |
A lot of those 'little englanders' are labour voters.
Turn your back on them if you want, but it doesnt result in an inclusive 'movement' |
Who is saying turn your back on them? I’m just saying don’t play up to that aspect. Concentrate instead on the underlying problems and issues that have for example, divided a lot of working-class white people from working-class minorities.
There’s more that binds us together than separates us as human beings but focusing on identity isn’t going to help that. | |
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| Loving Starmer's..... on 22:05 - Jan 6 with 1251 views | jeera |
| Loving Starmer's..... on 23:59 - Jan 5 by PhilTWTD |
His mother was evacuated to Nacton, as my dad, his brother and sister were as well. Even travelled on the same paddle steamer from Tilbury. |
Are you saying it was your family that turned Nacton from a nice place into a bit of a rough house back then?
My old chap was also evacuated during the early days of the war, along with one of his brothers. Being the youngest my dad was 5 years old and it must have been a pretty confusing time. My uncle was maybe 2/3 years older only.
The eldest 2 were old enough to be sent off to war.
Apparently the kids were dropped off in a square, somewhere in Norfolk I believe, and families were picking out the kids they would then offer a home to. One picked dad without his brother, so the story goes, and the child grabbed onto his older brother's legs and refused to let go so the family ended up taking on both of them!
Thetford way somewhere. He always had fond memories of the area and didn't want his kids growing up in London, hence we ended up moving up this way, (Suffolk), many years later.
Sad to see the boat in the picture you linked was later sunk by Stukas at Dunkirk. [Post edited 6 Jan 2021 22:14]
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| Loving Starmer's..... on 22:09 - Jan 6 with 1239 views | J2BLUE |
| Loving Starmer's..... on 00:03 - Jan 6 by BanksterDebtSlave |
It is vacuous marketing appealing to base jingoistic nationalism...end of...whichever party plays the game. |
Nonsense. Even the EU do the flag thing. It's harmless and perfectly acceptable, especially when one of the criticisms leveled at Corbyn was that he hated this country. I never bought into that idea but many did and lets face it, with the numbers needed to get into number 10 you need the support of some people who you might not entirely agree with.
You can make the situation better or you can contribute to an even worse outcome and bitch about it on the internet. |  |
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| Loving Starmer's..... on 22:20 - Jan 6 with 1217 views | PhilTWTD |
| Loving Starmer's..... on 22:05 - Jan 6 by jeera |
Are you saying it was your family that turned Nacton from a nice place into a bit of a rough house back then?
My old chap was also evacuated during the early days of the war, along with one of his brothers. Being the youngest my dad was 5 years old and it must have been a pretty confusing time. My uncle was maybe 2/3 years older only.
The eldest 2 were old enough to be sent off to war.
Apparently the kids were dropped off in a square, somewhere in Norfolk I believe, and families were picking out the kids they would then offer a home to. One picked dad without his brother, so the story goes, and the child grabbed onto his older brother's legs and refused to let go so the family ended up taking on both of them!
Thetford way somewhere. He always had fond memories of the area and didn't want his kids growing up in London, hence we ended up moving up this way, (Suffolk), many years later.
Sad to see the boat in the picture you linked was later sunk by Stukas at Dunkirk. [Post edited 6 Jan 2021 22:14]
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Same with my dad - he and his brother were around the same age as your dad - and his older sister, they both returned to Suffolk to live. I sent my uncle the Billy Bragg Facebook post and it was him who told me that was the same ship they sailed on and also that it sank at Dunkirk. Assume they sailed on a different day to BB's mother as they left from Tilbury rather than Ford's. |  | | |
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