| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker 09:33 - Feb 15 with 7913 views | StokieBlue |
Obviously there is the CRG who seem to be getting a lot of interview time on the BBC who are pushing for things to be opened up whilst the government pushes back and says it won't commit to dates until it sees actual evidence and numbers.
On top of that the hospitality sector seems to be making a concerted push to get opened up quicker. The reasons are of course clear and in many cases perfectly reasonable but there is an awful lot of pressure being applied:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56068252
Even calls to run "Eat out to help out" again:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56060962
The government seem to be sticking firm to the opening of schools first, see how that goes and then look to open up other things from Easter (outside, although Martin is pushing for them to be open inside as well).
I think the debate is going to get quite messy and heated over the next 6 weeks or so given both positions have some valid points.
SB |  | | |  |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 09:00 - Feb 16 with 1200 views | StokieBlue |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 08:56 - Feb 16 by braveblue |
So which 500,000 would you delay and put at risk? |
Read the thread.
It's not really much of a delay, we vaccinate 500,000+ people a day at the moment. It is an issue to move those vulnerable people back one day but one day extra isn't likely to have a huge affect on anything. Everyone is lockdown and cases are declining thanks to the R<0. I suspect many in that cohort would be happy to wait a day to get kids back to school - someone from that cohort in this thread has even said that.
As a counter question, how to you expect schools to reopen and stay open if all the teachers get sick?
It's all about priorities, happy to delay the opening of schools but opening them without vaccinations would seem to be setting them up for closing again in many areas. We have teachers and people involved with schools on this thread saying exactly that.
SB [Post edited 16 Feb 2021 9:01]
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| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 09:01 - Feb 16 with 1196 views | braveblue |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 12:26 - Feb 15 by StokieBlue |
Your argument is essentially saying that teachers should accept the risk of teaching varied classes of 30+ potential vectors. Why should they accept that risk? Would you accept that risk?
Vaccinating 500,000 people isn't really "pushing people down the list", it's delaying their vaccinations by a couple of days at most.
Are you in one of those first 9 groups?
SB |
Because they are not at risk of serious disease or death relatively speaking. Really don’t know why this is so hard to understand. |  | | |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 09:04 - Feb 16 with 1179 views | Herbivore |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 12:36 - Feb 15 by SuffolkPOSH |
Essentially my arguement is that the most at risk of death (99%) should be vaccinated first. What a repugnant stance.
I'm not forcing teachers to work. If they object than they are free to express that, maybe even refuse to work. That is for them as individuals to decide.
So you are essentially saying, young healthy teachers should get the vaccine ahead of those who have a greater mortality risk. And is it just teachers you think should be pushed up the list, what about the police, supermarket workers, etc, etc. |
Police and supermarket workers aren't indoors for 6 hours a day with the same group of people all of whom aren't wearing masks. If a kid in a class has Covid and is breathing out all day without a mask then the teacher is at very high risk of catching it. They might not die but they could end up with long Covid. Why should a 50 year old who can work from home be prioritised over a teacher who is being asked to potentially expose themselves to the virus? |  |
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| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 09:06 - Feb 16 with 1170 views | StokieBlue |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 09:01 - Feb 16 by braveblue |
Because they are not at risk of serious disease or death relatively speaking. Really don’t know why this is so hard to understand. |
Neither is everyone over 60. They are just next in line for the vaccinations and I suspect many would be more than willing to wait a day or two given the need to get education working again.
Your post implies that everyone in an age-based cohort is at high risk of immediately getting C19 which clearly isn't the case in a lockdown and supported by the fact they haven't got it in the previous year.
It's not hard to understand and I accept you point, unfortunately you seem to be not looking at the counter points being raised.
SB | | | |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 09:07 - Feb 16 with 1168 views | StokieBlue |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 08:58 - Feb 16 by braveblue |
So keep schools closed until June? |
So you don't feel the education of the next generations is important then?
This is an acceptable to position to take but it's not the only position. In fact I suspect it's a position most people in the next vaccination cohorts might not agree with. I don't have numbers to support that view though (only posts in here and talking to people).
SB | | | |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 09:10 - Feb 16 with 1158 views | braveblue |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 09:00 - Feb 16 by hype313 |
Given we are running at 400k vaccinations a day at the moment and the infection rate is dropping like a stone, then I really don't think a 24-48hr delay for the next crop will be too detrimental, especially if it means when the kids go back to school they can do so in a far safer environment. |
In what way is the school environment safer. You are not vaccinating the kids. | | | |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 09:11 - Feb 16 with 1154 views | bluelagos |
Your last sentence sums it up for me Stokie. As ever the polarised views of "me must do x" are usually the least informed. |  |
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| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 09:12 - Feb 16 with 1145 views | footers |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 09:10 - Feb 16 by braveblue |
In what way is the school environment safer. You are not vaccinating the kids. |
It might be a better idea to read the thread in full before replying to individual points that are covered later on in the thread. |  |
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| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 09:13 - Feb 16 with 1141 views | braveblue |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 09:00 - Feb 16 by StokieBlue |
Read the thread.
It's not really much of a delay, we vaccinate 500,000+ people a day at the moment. It is an issue to move those vulnerable people back one day but one day extra isn't likely to have a huge affect on anything. Everyone is lockdown and cases are declining thanks to the R<0. I suspect many in that cohort would be happy to wait a day to get kids back to school - someone from that cohort in this thread has even said that.
As a counter question, how to you expect schools to reopen and stay open if all the teachers get sick?
It's all about priorities, happy to delay the opening of schools but opening them without vaccinations would seem to be setting them up for closing again in many areas. We have teachers and people involved with schools on this thread saying exactly that.
SB [Post edited 16 Feb 2021 9:01]
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All teachers get sick. How likely is that? The testing systems in schools will prevent this. The system has worked really well as the committee making the decisions have kept it simple. Risk of serious illness and death. We are leading the world but now people like you want to change it. I would trust the experts who have driven it so well. | | | |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 09:14 - Feb 16 with 1137 views | braveblue |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 09:12 - Feb 16 by footers |
It might be a better idea to read the thread in full before replying to individual points that are covered later on in the thread. |
Why? Just answer. | | | |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 09:15 - Feb 16 with 1131 views | hype313 |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 09:13 - Feb 16 by braveblue |
All teachers get sick. How likely is that? The testing systems in schools will prevent this. The system has worked really well as the committee making the decisions have kept it simple. Risk of serious illness and death. We are leading the world but now people like you want to change it. I would trust the experts who have driven it so well. |
Why are you so bothered by a potential 24-48hr delay for the next group given Schools will be the first thing to re-open? |  |
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| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 09:18 - Feb 16 with 1122 views | braveblue |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 09:07 - Feb 16 by StokieBlue |
So you don't feel the education of the next generations is important then?
This is an acceptable to position to take but it's not the only position. In fact I suspect it's a position most people in the next vaccination cohorts might not agree with. I don't have numbers to support that view though (only posts in here and talking to people).
SB |
What I am saying is that if you won’t open schools until all teachers, support staff etc have been vaccinated then that would not be until June. Education is bialy so I would start on March 8 on a phased basis, apply the twice per week testing system and monitor carefully. If we wait as you suggest there will be no schools open until June. | | | |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 09:22 - Feb 16 with 1110 views | Mookamoo |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 09:18 - Feb 16 by braveblue |
What I am saying is that if you won’t open schools until all teachers, support staff etc have been vaccinated then that would not be until June. Education is bialy so I would start on March 8 on a phased basis, apply the twice per week testing system and monitor carefully. If we wait as you suggest there will be no schools open until June. |
Where did you get the June date from? |  | | |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 09:23 - Feb 16 with 1106 views | StokieBlue |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 09:22 - Feb 16 by Mookamoo |
Where did you get the June date from? |
He means until the teachers have had their second dose.
SB | | | |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 09:43 - Feb 16 with 1094 views | braveblue |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 09:22 - Feb 16 by Mookamoo |
Where did you get the June date from? |
Group 9 by end April. Teachers first week May. Need to wait 21 days to be effective. Start of June. | | | |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 09:47 - Feb 16 with 1089 views | StokieBlue |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 09:43 - Feb 16 by braveblue |
Group 9 by end April. Teachers first week May. Need to wait 21 days to be effective. Start of June. |
The whole premise is that teachers are done now and then they have a few weeks for it to take effect before the start of school. That would push back groups 8 and 9 by about 3 days at most. This really isn't a long delay and the absolute most vulnerable have been vaccinated already.
If you want until after group 9 (over 50's) then there is no point, they will have had 2 months of being exposed and lots of school years will likely be back to home learning.
SB | | | |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 09:57 - Feb 16 with 1077 views | braveblue |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 09:47 - Feb 16 by StokieBlue |
The whole premise is that teachers are done now and then they have a few weeks for it to take effect before the start of school. That would push back groups 8 and 9 by about 3 days at most. This really isn't a long delay and the absolute most vulnerable have been vaccinated already.
If you want until after group 9 (over 50's) then there is no point, they will have had 2 months of being exposed and lots of school years will likely be back to home learning.
SB |
But the people most at risk being done now have been contacted etc. If you have a system that is working incredibly well then why on earth would you want to interrupt it and go against what the medical and scientific experts have said? I appreciate the differing points of view are all well meaning - I just think we should let matters proceed. | | | |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 09:59 - Feb 16 with 1073 views | Mookamoo |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 09:43 - Feb 16 by braveblue |
Group 9 by end April. Teachers first week May. Need to wait 21 days to be effective. Start of June. |
Get on and do at least the Special Needs and secondary teachers now. I know there have been loads of contradictory studies that have been published over the last few months, but one I read did stated Secondary teachers do have an increased risk. It will just push the 50-55s into the first week of May. | | | |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 10:14 - Feb 16 with 1059 views | IpswichKnight |
Have to factor in a decline in the amount of vaccine’s that we will have in the coming months, Pfizer vaccines will be down due to a refurbishment of there factory ( this effects the world’s vaccines though so not just us ) plus we will have to start giving the 2nd jab as well. We will get new vaccines from Moderna and Johnson & Johnson though in April and June we should be able to lift to a million a day ( infrastructure permitting ) through the summer.
The other question is should we though? Would it be morally correct once we have done the over 50’s to say instead we have done the most vulnerable and instead we will offer our stocks to those countries that are in need of vaccinating there over 70’s? | | | |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 10:22 - Feb 16 with 1051 views | bluelagos |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 10:14 - Feb 16 by IpswichKnight |
Have to factor in a decline in the amount of vaccine’s that we will have in the coming months, Pfizer vaccines will be down due to a refurbishment of there factory ( this effects the world’s vaccines though so not just us ) plus we will have to start giving the 2nd jab as well. We will get new vaccines from Moderna and Johnson & Johnson though in April and June we should be able to lift to a million a day ( infrastructure permitting ) through the summer.
The other question is should we though? Would it be morally correct once we have done the over 50’s to say instead we have done the most vulnerable and instead we will offer our stocks to those countries that are in need of vaccinating there over 70’s? |
I asked that question a while back.
Morally, there is no way can you justify vaccines going to ordinary, low risk brits ahead of extremely vulnerable people overseas. By doing so, more people will die.
Not a cat in hells chance of that happening though. Can you imagine the meltdown if we had to remain in lockdown for an additional few months to save the lives of foreigners?
Am being a bit provocative for sure, but it is a moral dilemma that isn't seemingly even being discussed at government levels, certainly not a public debate. [Post edited 16 Feb 2021 10:27]
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| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 10:25 - Feb 16 with 1048 views | hype313 |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 10:14 - Feb 16 by IpswichKnight |
Have to factor in a decline in the amount of vaccine’s that we will have in the coming months, Pfizer vaccines will be down due to a refurbishment of there factory ( this effects the world’s vaccines though so not just us ) plus we will have to start giving the 2nd jab as well. We will get new vaccines from Moderna and Johnson & Johnson though in April and June we should be able to lift to a million a day ( infrastructure permitting ) through the summer.
The other question is should we though? Would it be morally correct once we have done the over 50’s to say instead we have done the most vulnerable and instead we will offer our stocks to those countries that are in need of vaccinating there over 70’s? |
Although Simon Stevens said last night they plan to double the number of jabs in the next 11 weeks compared to the previous 11, sounds like we have more than ample supply of vaccines. | |
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| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 10:36 - Feb 16 with 1032 views | Mookamoo |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 10:22 - Feb 16 by bluelagos |
I asked that question a while back.
Morally, there is no way can you justify vaccines going to ordinary, low risk brits ahead of extremely vulnerable people overseas. By doing so, more people will die.
Not a cat in hells chance of that happening though. Can you imagine the meltdown if we had to remain in lockdown for an additional few months to save the lives of foreigners?
Am being a bit provocative for sure, but it is a moral dilemma that isn't seemingly even being discussed at government levels, certainly not a public debate. [Post edited 16 Feb 2021 10:27]
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At what point do we start ordering the 'tweaked' versions anyway. Are we going to be left with a surplus of original v1.0 vaccines we don't actually want. | | | |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 11:36 - Mar 19 with 900 views | StokieBlue |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 09:57 - Feb 16 by braveblue |
But the people most at risk being done now have been contacted etc. If you have a system that is working incredibly well then why on earth would you want to interrupt it and go against what the medical and scientific experts have said? I appreciate the differing points of view are all well meaning - I just think we should let matters proceed. |
So to revisit this thread, exactly what I said would happen has happened to my nephews school. They are now closed until after Easter because there isn't enough staff to remain open due to C19.
This is why if we wanted to open up the teachers should have been vaccinated and it was the point I was trying to make which you were totally ignoring. It's wasn't about the spread or their individual risk, it was about the fact the schools can't remain open without teachers.
It's anecdotal of course but I strongly suspect his isn't the only school in the country in that situation.
SB | | | |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 11:41 - Mar 19 with 877 views | Oldsmoker |
What does the Tory MP's who call themselves the Sensible Group say?
If ever there was a prize for stupidest misnomer then they are it. |  |
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| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 11:43 - Mar 19 with 866 views | hype313 |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 11:36 - Mar 19 by StokieBlue |
So to revisit this thread, exactly what I said would happen has happened to my nephews school. They are now closed until after Easter because there isn't enough staff to remain open due to C19.
This is why if we wanted to open up the teachers should have been vaccinated and it was the point I was trying to make which you were totally ignoring. It's wasn't about the spread or their individual risk, it was about the fact the schools can't remain open without teachers.
It's anecdotal of course but I strongly suspect his isn't the only school in the country in that situation.
SB |
To be fair, it sounds more isolated incident than a larger issue reading reports this morning, saying that children returning to school has not led to a rise in Covid infections, as the first data shows just 0.05 per cent of secondary students tested positive. | |
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