| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker 09:33 - Feb 15 with 7916 views | StokieBlue |
Obviously there is the CRG who seem to be getting a lot of interview time on the BBC who are pushing for things to be opened up whilst the government pushes back and says it won't commit to dates until it sees actual evidence and numbers.
On top of that the hospitality sector seems to be making a concerted push to get opened up quicker. The reasons are of course clear and in many cases perfectly reasonable but there is an awful lot of pressure being applied:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56068252
Even calls to run "Eat out to help out" again:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56060962
The government seem to be sticking firm to the opening of schools first, see how that goes and then look to open up other things from Easter (outside, although Martin is pushing for them to be open inside as well).
I think the debate is going to get quite messy and heated over the next 6 weeks or so given both positions have some valid points.
SB |  | | |  |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 14:21 - Feb 15 with 2485 views | Funge |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 14:05 - Feb 15 by SuffolkPOSH |
I'm humoured by you attempt at spinning things and maybe it is you who should be more reflective on how you communicate rather than judging others. You like point out things I haven't answered even if they were never asked but you have clearly skipped over questions asked directly to you. I think theres a word for that & it begins with H.
Indeed you talked about teachers & I raised the issue of other groups. It's called developing a conversation, agruement, POV, whatever you want to call it. So why should ANY one group get priority over another & if one does where does it stop ???. I adopted the stance mortality trumps exposure. You haven't actually addressed that issue but hey it's just me avoiding points raised. 
So my point re: choosing to work is a false equivalence. They chose to be a teacher if they don't like it they can change jobs. If they don't like the environment they can leave. This seems a tough stance as the circumstances are due to someting extreme like a global pandamic but as individuals we are responisable for our own choices. They are not forced to be teachers. Naturally in these circumstances you would hope that an employer would be understanding to individual concerns and work around that. Higher risk teachers would have had a vaccine. Others concerned may get the option to get it. However your blank stance of they ALL SHOULD get it ahead of more vulnerbable people is one I disagree with. It seems it is you with the inflexible stance but true to form you accuse me of that like you have with others who dare to not agree with you on other threads.
I've spent enough time addressing this issue. I'm happy that our incompetent government have actually got something right & prioritising the most vulnerable ahead of your exposed teachers & hope you are not to traumatised that the highly educated professionals disagree with your position. |
I've disagreed with SB on a fair few things COVID-related - that said, though, I think he's a pretty reasonable chap, all things considered.
I can't be arsed with everyone getting angry with one another, all the time. Those dickfaces Lambert, Evans & the budgies make me annoyed enough; I can't control them, what chance do I have with COVID?
Sorry man, this isn't a personal attack on you.
Peace and love. |  | | |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 15:13 - Feb 15 with 2425 views | 26_Paz |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 12:26 - Feb 15 by StokieBlue |
Your argument is essentially saying that teachers should accept the risk of teaching varied classes of 30+ potential vectors. Why should they accept that risk? Would you accept that risk?
Vaccinating 500,000 people isn't really "pushing people down the list", it's delaying their vaccinations by a couple of days at most.
Are you in one of those first 9 groups?
SB |
Supermarket staff come into contact with a lot more than 30 potential vectors a day. Should they get the vaccine early? |  |
| |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 15:22 - Feb 15 with 2422 views | StokieBlue |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 15:13 - Feb 15 by 26_Paz |
Supermarket staff come into contact with a lot more than 30 potential vectors a day. Should they get the vaccine early? |
I have covered this in subsequent posts but to give a fuller answer:
Most of the time in supermarkets they will be in contact with moving people wearing masks who don't stay in one location for a long time. Teachers are stuck in a room with kids, some of whom might not be brilliant about the rules and who aren't all required to wear masks all day.
The chances of infection in those circumstances are far higher than in a supermarket where there are masks for everyone and it's a transient contact.
https://english.elpais.com/society/2020-10-28/a-room-a-bar-and-a-class-how-the-c
You are all for opening up as quickly as possible so I would have thought getting kids back to school was a top priority for you and if that is going to happen it seems fair to minimise the risk to teachers. It's not a large cohort, they could be vaccinated without too much disruption to the existing timetable.
SB | | | |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 15:27 - Feb 15 with 2416 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 15:13 - Feb 15 by 26_Paz |
Supermarket staff come into contact with a lot more than 30 potential vectors a day. Should they get the vaccine early? |
I am sure you are aware supermarket staff should generally be socially distanced, in contact for brief time with the vast majority of their customers wearing masks and with till staff separated by perspex from them.
Yes, supermarket staff have an argument for having priority in vaccination. Interestingly, although there has been an outbreak among our local supermarket staff, I am not sure the numbers are significantly higher than teaching staff who are testing positive at our school with the current key worker provision.
My point still stands that the Government should not attempt to send schools back until they have committed to staff being vaccinated.
Thankfully we have a union that has already shown it will not allow the Government to force unsafe working practices on us and has thereby forced the Government to close schools when they wanted them open through this lockdown. Don't forget that. It was the unions that closed the schools. Not Williamson nor Johnson.
At no point have I said school staff should receive priority above the over 50s. It is all about the balance between who is most vulnerable, the rate of vaccinations and how serious the Government is about wanting to get schools back. |  |
| |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 15:40 - Feb 15 with 2375 views | 26_Paz |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 15:22 - Feb 15 by StokieBlue |
I have covered this in subsequent posts but to give a fuller answer:
Most of the time in supermarkets they will be in contact with moving people wearing masks who don't stay in one location for a long time. Teachers are stuck in a room with kids, some of whom might not be brilliant about the rules and who aren't all required to wear masks all day.
The chances of infection in those circumstances are far higher than in a supermarket where there are masks for everyone and it's a transient contact.
https://english.elpais.com/society/2020-10-28/a-room-a-bar-and-a-class-how-the-c
You are all for opening up as quickly as possible so I would have thought getting kids back to school was a top priority for you and if that is going to happen it seems fair to minimise the risk to teachers. It's not a large cohort, they could be vaccinated without too much disruption to the existing timetable.
SB |
Thanks for the info.
I’m not against vaccinating teachers early, as you say anything to get things moving quicker. Kids education is the most important thing to get back to ‘normal’ as soon as possible.
I’ve seen some studies saying teachers are at no greater risk than the general population so just trying to understand the rationale. Going to be very difficult to manage the roll out into the general population, of you give it to teachers early there will be a number of other public facing jobs who would understandably be looking for the same thing. Where does it lead? Should handrail population roll out be done by how public facing one’s job is? I don’t know, just speculating potential routes | |
| |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 15:42 - Feb 15 with 2374 views | StokieBlue |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 15:40 - Feb 15 by 26_Paz |
Thanks for the info.
I’m not against vaccinating teachers early, as you say anything to get things moving quicker. Kids education is the most important thing to get back to ‘normal’ as soon as possible.
I’ve seen some studies saying teachers are at no greater risk than the general population so just trying to understand the rationale. Going to be very difficult to manage the roll out into the general population, of you give it to teachers early there will be a number of other public facing jobs who would understandably be looking for the same thing. Where does it lead? Should handrail population roll out be done by how public facing one’s job is? I don’t know, just speculating potential routes |
Do you have links to those studies on teachers risks?
I would be interested to take a look.
SB [Post edited 15 Feb 2021 15:43]
| | | |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 15:50 - Feb 15 with 2361 views | TractorWood |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 15:22 - Feb 15 by StokieBlue |
I have covered this in subsequent posts but to give a fuller answer:
Most of the time in supermarkets they will be in contact with moving people wearing masks who don't stay in one location for a long time. Teachers are stuck in a room with kids, some of whom might not be brilliant about the rules and who aren't all required to wear masks all day.
The chances of infection in those circumstances are far higher than in a supermarket where there are masks for everyone and it's a transient contact.
https://english.elpais.com/society/2020-10-28/a-room-a-bar-and-a-class-how-the-c
You are all for opening up as quickly as possible so I would have thought getting kids back to school was a top priority for you and if that is going to happen it seems fair to minimise the risk to teachers. It's not a large cohort, they could be vaccinated without too much disruption to the existing timetable.
SB |
A dangerous precedent to set if those 500k vaccines could go to people who are at risk or are older. Teachers need to look beyond themselves for this one point. What about the 49 year old policeman or Asda shift worker. Why does a 30 year old PE teacher need it when all the stats say that it may costs someone's life? |  |
| |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 16:14 - Feb 15 with 2324 views | GaryCooper |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 15:22 - Feb 15 by StokieBlue |
I have covered this in subsequent posts but to give a fuller answer:
Most of the time in supermarkets they will be in contact with moving people wearing masks who don't stay in one location for a long time. Teachers are stuck in a room with kids, some of whom might not be brilliant about the rules and who aren't all required to wear masks all day.
The chances of infection in those circumstances are far higher than in a supermarket where there are masks for everyone and it's a transient contact.
https://english.elpais.com/society/2020-10-28/a-room-a-bar-and-a-class-how-the-c
You are all for opening up as quickly as possible so I would have thought getting kids back to school was a top priority for you and if that is going to happen it seems fair to minimise the risk to teachers. It's not a large cohort, they could be vaccinated without too much disruption to the existing timetable.
SB |
If supermarkets are relatively safe where have the majority of recent Covid infections been instigated? |  | | |
Login to get fewer ads
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 16:30 - Feb 15 with 2288 views | StokieBlue |
Thanks.
We aren't talking about risk of death though, we are talking about having a functioning education system and if the teachers are off sick then that's going to be difficult. It's a decision that will need to be made by the government. I don't mind the schools staying closed longer and prioritising the absolute most vulnerable, I am just not sure both things can be done simultaneously.
Also worth noting:
"The study also covers periods where there were limited numbers of children attending school."
The deaths aren't always driven by the job, they are driven by the individual and their condition, age etc.
SB | | | |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 16:46 - Feb 15 with 2263 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 16:30 - Feb 15 by StokieBlue |
Thanks.
We aren't talking about risk of death though, we are talking about having a functioning education system and if the teachers are off sick then that's going to be difficult. It's a decision that will need to be made by the government. I don't mind the schools staying closed longer and prioritising the absolute most vulnerable, I am just not sure both things can be done simultaneously.
Also worth noting:
"The study also covers periods where there were limited numbers of children attending school."
The deaths aren't always driven by the job, they are driven by the individual and their condition, age etc.
SB |
One of the biggest problems we had in Wales in early-mid December was that we simply ran out of well teachers. Our local high school shut because of that problem, as did my eldest's high school. There were others in the city too. It was partly that issue that forced the thinking to close the schools here.
This was a few weeks ahead of the new variant becoming a problem in London. And then, rather than learn any lessons from what happened here in Wales, we all watched the government threaten to sue councils in London that wanted to shut the schools. Madness.
It would be a very sensible move to vaccinate teachers as one of the next priority groups. I can't understand why that should be contentious. |  |
| |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 16:49 - Feb 15 with 2257 views | 26_Paz |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 16:30 - Feb 15 by StokieBlue |
Thanks.
We aren't talking about risk of death though, we are talking about having a functioning education system and if the teachers are off sick then that's going to be difficult. It's a decision that will need to be made by the government. I don't mind the schools staying closed longer and prioritising the absolute most vulnerable, I am just not sure both things can be done simultaneously.
Also worth noting:
"The study also covers periods where there were limited numbers of children attending school."
The deaths aren't always driven by the job, they are driven by the individual and their condition, age etc.
SB |
Yeah, it’s a tricky one for sure. As others have said I’m not sure how comfortable I’d be with a 30 year old teacher getting the jab ahead of my 59 year old mother, for example. As you say, up to the government I suppose and I genuinely think this is one with no right or wrong answers. Whichever way they go there will be arguments for going the other way. | |
| |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 16:49 - Feb 15 with 2259 views | hype313 |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 16:46 - Feb 15 by Swansea_Blue |
One of the biggest problems we had in Wales in early-mid December was that we simply ran out of well teachers. Our local high school shut because of that problem, as did my eldest's high school. There were others in the city too. It was partly that issue that forced the thinking to close the schools here.
This was a few weeks ahead of the new variant becoming a problem in London. And then, rather than learn any lessons from what happened here in Wales, we all watched the government threaten to sue councils in London that wanted to shut the schools. Madness.
It would be a very sensible move to vaccinate teachers as one of the next priority groups. I can't understand why that should be contentious. |
It seems absurd that we aren't, especially with half term this week, perfect time.
So many people I knew over Xmas got Covid from their Children, whilst we are riding a crest of a wave with vaccines, it's seems like we are risking another outbreak when the kids go back. |  |
| |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 16:51 - Feb 15 with 2251 views | Mookamoo |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 15:50 - Feb 15 by TractorWood |
A dangerous precedent to set if those 500k vaccines could go to people who are at risk or are older. Teachers need to look beyond themselves for this one point. What about the 49 year old policeman or Asda shift worker. Why does a 30 year old PE teacher need it when all the stats say that it may costs someone's life? |
Its might be just lip service from a man who can't tie his own shoelaces, but Williamson did say a few days ago there should be an argument for teachers in the next phase.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-55644744
It wouldn't surprise me that next Monday they offer at least secondary school and college teachers a jab prior to March 8th. |  | | |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 17:49 - Feb 15 with 2186 views | braveblue |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 10:18 - Feb 15 by Nthsuffolkblue |
Would be nice to get school staff vaccinated before getting them back. |
Makes little difference. Transmission was amongst older pupils. Also, which vulnerable people would you delay? |  | | |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 18:29 - Feb 15 with 2169 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 09:41 - Feb 15 by EdwardStone |
I think I read somewhere that Rishi's "Eat Out..." cost a shade under a billion sobs and significantly helped to push the infection rates right up
Not exactly helpful in either regard
I wonder if we shall make the same mistakes again?? |
And yet ONS figures show that areas with the highest take up of the EOTHO scheme had the lowest virus levels between August and October. Whereas the areas that had the highest infection rates in that same period had the lowest take up of the scheme.
It's easy to make glib comments about the scheme, but a) It saved a lot of business and a lot of jobs, and b) it's very insulting to the thousands of restauranters who spent an absolute fortune on making their premises covid safe.
Household transmission still remains the highest driver of covid. Not hospitality. [Post edited 15 Feb 2021 18:31]
|  |
| |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 19:14 - Feb 15 with 2144 views | m14_blue |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 16:51 - Feb 15 by Mookamoo |
Its might be just lip service from a man who can't tie his own shoelaces, but Williamson did say a few days ago there should be an argument for teachers in the next phase.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-55644744
It wouldn't surprise me that next Monday they offer at least secondary school and college teachers a jab prior to March 8th. |
It will definitely be lip service.
Teachers have been treated as collateral damage throughout this pandemic, both by the government and by large swathes of the population. They’ve been painted as work shy and failing in their duty by the right wing press.
They’ve been working throughout this lockdown too, with many schools over half full.
If I fail to make my businesses covid secure then I’ll be fined and possibly shut down, schools are the complete opposite (teachers not allowed to wear masks etc). | | | |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 19:18 - Feb 15 with 2134 views | StokieBlue |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 18:29 - Feb 15 by GlasgowBlue |
And yet ONS figures show that areas with the highest take up of the EOTHO scheme had the lowest virus levels between August and October. Whereas the areas that had the highest infection rates in that same period had the lowest take up of the scheme.
It's easy to make glib comments about the scheme, but a) It saved a lot of business and a lot of jobs, and b) it's very insulting to the thousands of restauranters who spent an absolute fortune on making their premises covid safe.
Household transmission still remains the highest driver of covid. Not hospitality. [Post edited 15 Feb 2021 18:31]
|
Evening GB, do you have a link which references ONS data to show what you've described? I'd be interested to see it. This study from the University of Warwick says the exact opposite so one of them must be wrong and it would be good to clear it up:
https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/research/centres/cage/news/30-10-20-eat_
Your points on saving businesses and establishments making their venues covid safe are important as well. I think we might see a return if the scheme in the summer months if things are better but I feel it's a bit early to be calling for it sooner than that.
SB | | | |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 19:46 - Feb 15 with 2101 views | EdwardStone |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 18:29 - Feb 15 by GlasgowBlue |
And yet ONS figures show that areas with the highest take up of the EOTHO scheme had the lowest virus levels between August and October. Whereas the areas that had the highest infection rates in that same period had the lowest take up of the scheme.
It's easy to make glib comments about the scheme, but a) It saved a lot of business and a lot of jobs, and b) it's very insulting to the thousands of restauranters who spent an absolute fortune on making their premises covid safe.
Household transmission still remains the highest driver of covid. Not hospitality. [Post edited 15 Feb 2021 18:31]
|
Evening Mr GB
Never my intention to disparage anyone/everyone who works in hospitality industry, hard work and unsociable hours for scant reward in my opinion
My point was the our current Govt. seem to rush into releasing lockdown with a huge fanfare and flamboyant gesture, only to be caught out when the whole shebang goes badly wrong
I know that pubs, cafes, restaurants have spent insane amounts of money, time and effort to try to make their premises safe....my heart goes out to them because they have really done the very best that they can within the guidelines givem
BUT
They have been undermined, let down....even betrayed by a Govt that fails to grasp the gravity of the situation and the measures that we as a nation need to take to move past the spread of this plague
I fear that we are about to have something similar to EOTHO and have then suffer the same inevitable consequences |  | | |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 22:09 - Feb 15 with 2062 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 19:18 - Feb 15 by StokieBlue |
Evening GB, do you have a link which references ONS data to show what you've described? I'd be interested to see it. This study from the University of Warwick says the exact opposite so one of them must be wrong and it would be good to clear it up:
https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/research/centres/cage/news/30-10-20-eat_
Your points on saving businesses and establishments making their venues covid safe are important as well. I think we might see a return if the scheme in the summer months if things are better but I feel it's a bit early to be calling for it sooner than that.
SB |
Hi Skokie. Sorry for the late reply. I was mistaken. It wasn’t ONS data. it was Treasury data.
https://www.morningadvertiser.co.uk/Article/2021/01/29/Did-Eat-Out-to-Help-Out-c | |
| |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 22:22 - Feb 15 with 2049 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 19:46 - Feb 15 by EdwardStone |
Evening Mr GB
Never my intention to disparage anyone/everyone who works in hospitality industry, hard work and unsociable hours for scant reward in my opinion
My point was the our current Govt. seem to rush into releasing lockdown with a huge fanfare and flamboyant gesture, only to be caught out when the whole shebang goes badly wrong
I know that pubs, cafes, restaurants have spent insane amounts of money, time and effort to try to make their premises safe....my heart goes out to them because they have really done the very best that they can within the guidelines givem
BUT
They have been undermined, let down....even betrayed by a Govt that fails to grasp the gravity of the situation and the measures that we as a nation need to take to move past the spread of this plague
I fear that we are about to have something similar to EOTHO and have then suffer the same inevitable consequences |
Thanks. I don’t believe we should go straight from ending lockdown, balls deep into another EOTHO scheme. But something similar when we have all adults vaccinated would be a welcome shot in the arm for the hospitality industry.
But it’s important to remember that very few people in the hospitality industry tested positive in the weeks after EOTHO. And more transmission took place from household gatherings than from a controlled hospitality environment.
. | |
| |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 23:09 - Feb 15 with 2017 views | jaykay |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 09:53 - Feb 15 by footers |
It's good to see that after a decade of bowing to the more swivel-eyed of their backbenchers that the government finally seems to have grown a backbone. [Post edited 15 Feb 2021 17:51]
|
i agree with you. it hard to believe this loons are now saying they are concerned about mental health in people and the social problems. when for years they seen mental health services and social services cut to the bone . where were they then. |  |
| forensic experts say footers and spruces fingerprints were not found at the scene after the weekends rows |
| |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 08:56 - Feb 16 with 1963 views | braveblue |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 12:10 - Feb 15 by StokieBlue |
There are ~500,000 teachers in the UK. Given the numbers being vaccinated at the moment that's not a huge amount of people to vaccinate in order to give them some protection whilst doing their jobs.
If schools are going to be opened then teachers should be vaccinated.
SB |
So which 500,000 would you delay and put at risk? | | | |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 08:58 - Feb 16 with 1952 views | braveblue |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 12:15 - Feb 15 by Nthsuffolkblue |
Which groups are on the priority list beyond the over 50s?
The decision on opening schools to all students should be once the staff have been done. Not some imaginary group who are already on an unpublished list should be shifted down the list to give us some priority. |
So keep schools closed until June? | | | |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 09:00 - Feb 16 with 1947 views | hype313 |
| Pressure growing on the government to reopen quicker on 08:56 - Feb 16 by braveblue |
So which 500,000 would you delay and put at risk? |
Given we are running at 400k vaccinations a day at the moment and the infection rate is dropping like a stone, then I really don't think a 24-48hr delay for the next crop will be too detrimental, especially if it means when the kids go back to school they can do so in a far safer environment. | |
| |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
