| Vegetarianism and veganism 18:56 - Feb 24 with 6422 views | Swansea_Blue |
I genuinely believe we need to break down the stigma around these. I’m convinced they are better both for us, animals (obviously) and the environment. Particularly I think we need to challenge the ‘macho’ view around eating meat, as let’s face it that’s a load of balls; it’s not as if we’ve gone out and hunted it at great risk to ourselves.
Having said that, we’re having fillet steak tonight. And I’m really looking forward to it  . A little bit of mixed spice on it, triple cooked chips and some petit poi’s (or as we say post-Brexit little peas). Lush. |  |
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| Vegetarianism and veganism on 20:08 - Feb 24 with 1528 views | theipswichfile |
| Vegetarianism and veganism on 19:47 - Feb 24 by Herbivore |
Vegans are infinitely more likely to be interrogated about why they're vegan and have their choice challenged than they are to try and convince others to change their lifestyle. Unless they're Callis, obvs. |
I'm not disputing that, in the last day I saw something about a vegan sausage bap from Starbucks somewhere online. Predictably there are comments from people saying 'wouldn't touch it with a barge pole even if you did pay tax'. Obviously a mature and well-rounded response to what is essentially an advert you can just scroll past.
What doesn't help matters is when someone replies 'ugh carnivores, all the same' and the dumpster fire ensues. Everyone needs to do better, but you are absolutely right, it could all be avoided by non-vegans refraining from swinging their dicks in the first place. For whatever reason, there is just a large population of people who seem to think that this is all an agenda against their ability to eat what they want, when really nobody's choices are being curtailed, it's just that vegan options are becoming more common and some feel threatened by that  |  | | |
| Vegetarianism and veganism on 20:10 - Feb 24 with 1527 views | MattinLondon |
| Vegetarianism and veganism on 20:08 - Feb 24 by monytowbray |
I still think there’s little substitute for being informed, regardless of how a point is made. |
Do you think, at times, you should take heed of your own advice? |  | | |
| Vegetarianism and veganism on 20:11 - Feb 24 with 1521 views | monytowbray |
| Vegetarianism and veganism on 20:10 - Feb 24 by MattinLondon |
Do you think, at times, you should take heed of your own advice? |
What and be informed? I’m welcome to hear some examples on this topic where I’m not? |  |
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| Vegetarianism and veganism on 20:15 - Feb 24 with 1507 views | textbackup |
| Vegetarianism and veganism on 20:04 - Feb 24 by monytowbray |
I still don’t get avocado hype. |
me neither really, but they don't half make that wrap taste good |  |
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| Vegetarianism and veganism on 20:17 - Feb 24 with 1505 views | monytowbray |
| Vegetarianism and veganism on 20:15 - Feb 24 by textbackup |
me neither really, but they don't half make that wrap taste good |
If you can enjoy vegan food I am determined we can change the world :)
How’s your mad relative? I suspect if you named dropped I may know of them! | |
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| Vegetarianism and veganism on 20:19 - Feb 24 with 1497 views | theipswichfile |
| Vegetarianism and veganism on 20:06 - Feb 24 by monytowbray |
The world never changed without people challenging social norms with disruption though. You coild argue any protest is doing exactly that.
Edgy opinion maybe but animals deserve rights not far off from humans. Factory farming need eradicating and the “official” welfare watchdogs need to stop being favourable of farmers in every regard, that’d be a good start. |
I don't disagree that factory farming is deeply flawed, in fact I did make reference to that in my first comment. You are also right about the preferential treatment farmers are given.
You won't achieve much by just telling people that their choice of meal is wrong, particularly when a lot of people don't have the luxury of time and money to support such a rapid change of diet. We are omnivorous by nature, you will not change that by campaigning to the man in the street. The only way you will change a large degree of people's minds is by the development of cheaper and equally tasty synthetic meats and by effective political change, even then there will still be plenty who resist. | | | |
| Vegetarianism and veganism on 20:20 - Feb 24 with 1493 views | J2BLUE |
| Vegetarianism and veganism on 19:54 - Feb 24 by monytowbray |
I’ve always felt your posts are worded more in defence of keeping meat in a diet than an admission of fault personally but if I’m wrong I apologise.
If more people knew how to cook properly and were wider educated on global dishes it would be easier for most. But even now the market is there for those with less time/knowledge available on cooking. I can’t think of many dishes I haven’t eaten since going vegan that don’t rival the “real” thing.
My daughter has lived here 2 months now and all I ever get back are empty plates! |
I think keeping meat in the diet is a perfectly acceptable position for people to take. My position hasn't actually changed from the posts I used to make on here. All that has really changed is i've embraced my preference for plants over meat a bit more and become less obsessed with getting lots of protein (the weight loss/fitness industry is brainwashing us all with protein).
My support for plant based eating is much more for the planet than the animals to be honest. I stand by what I said earlier. I wouldn't say i'm an animal lover personally but I don't want to see them harmed for no reason. As I used to argue I think there's plenty of nutrition in decent cuts of meat and again, that's something I stand by. I think people could do with eating less meat (especially processed factory farmed junk) but including meat in your diet doesn't make you a bad person IMO.
Call me a weirdo but i'll happily eat a potato instead of a steak, some lentils instead of mince and some chickpeas instead of chicken but for many they naturally prefer meat. I think what people don't realise is that diet is incredibly personal. For every person like me who prefers plants there's someone who prefers animal products. I've done Atkins with tons of meat, eggs, cheese etc for 6 months. By the end I couldn't look at another damn piece of bacon or an egg. Asking some people to give up animal products and go all plant based is like asking vegans to give up food and switch entirely to Huel. It's possible but it would be miserable. |  |
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| Vegetarianism and veganism on 20:22 - Feb 24 with 1490 views | monytowbray |
| Vegetarianism and veganism on 20:19 - Feb 24 by theipswichfile |
I don't disagree that factory farming is deeply flawed, in fact I did make reference to that in my first comment. You are also right about the preferential treatment farmers are given.
You won't achieve much by just telling people that their choice of meal is wrong, particularly when a lot of people don't have the luxury of time and money to support such a rapid change of diet. We are omnivorous by nature, you will not change that by campaigning to the man in the street. The only way you will change a large degree of people's minds is by the development of cheaper and equally tasty synthetic meats and by effective political change, even then there will still be plenty who resist. |
That’s always going to be going on in the background but in the meantime I feel like we owe it to the earth not to justify the mistreatment of live for convenience in our food chain, particularly when the options to switch are already out there and have never been better.
For me I just can’t see the logical argument against it and feel the switch should be on the meat eater to justify their choices with the wealth of info out there now. | |
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| Vegetarianism and veganism on 20:23 - Feb 24 with 1489 views | textbackup |
| Vegetarianism and veganism on 20:17 - Feb 24 by monytowbray |
If you can enjoy vegan food I am determined we can change the world :)
How’s your mad relative? I suspect if you named dropped I may know of them! |
shes now up the duff, so even madder! | |
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| Vegetarianism and veganism on 20:51 - Feb 24 with 1460 views | theipswichfile |
| Vegetarianism and veganism on 20:22 - Feb 24 by monytowbray |
That’s always going to be going on in the background but in the meantime I feel like we owe it to the earth not to justify the mistreatment of live for convenience in our food chain, particularly when the options to switch are already out there and have never been better.
For me I just can’t see the logical argument against it and feel the switch should be on the meat eater to justify their choices with the wealth of info out there now. |
I think the logical answer a lot of people would give you is that humans are omnivorous by nature. Therefore we could choose to eat meat, or choose not to. We are capable of choice and so I suppose most people would say that unless that choice is outright restricted, either choice is valid.
The wider point you make about the earth, about the conveyor-belt style of slaughterhouses and dairies and all of the nefarious things that go on in a society where we eat far too much meat are all completely valid and I absolutely back the thought process behind them.
If none of that existed and the overproduction of meat was not an issue and the earth was essentially in a state of nature, would you take issue with someone hunting a deer in the same way a bear hunts for salmon? None of the rampant consumerism, none of the environmental harm, just natural subsistence - is that problematic to you? Is the issue not more the way that we go about consuming animal products more than the actual act of consuming said animal products?
I'm not being intentionally facetious or trying to pull a 'gotcha' moment out, I just genuinely want to know | | | |
| Vegetarianism and veganism on 20:54 - Feb 24 with 1459 views | eireblue |
| Vegetarianism and veganism on 20:03 - Feb 24 by textbackup |
aldi vegan sausages, in a wrap with smashed avocado has been my daily lunch for the past 3/4 weeks. followed by a meaty dinner.
variety is the spice of life |
Phil, Gav, can we sticky this one?
Will be useful when someone blames the vegans for all the environmental damage done by eating 37 avocados a day.
Bloody millennials and their smashed avocado, absolutely destroyed the avocado slicer tool industry as well. |  | | |
| Vegetarianism and veganism on 21:02 - Feb 24 with 1448 views | eireblue |
| Vegetarianism and veganism on 20:51 - Feb 24 by theipswichfile |
I think the logical answer a lot of people would give you is that humans are omnivorous by nature. Therefore we could choose to eat meat, or choose not to. We are capable of choice and so I suppose most people would say that unless that choice is outright restricted, either choice is valid.
The wider point you make about the earth, about the conveyor-belt style of slaughterhouses and dairies and all of the nefarious things that go on in a society where we eat far too much meat are all completely valid and I absolutely back the thought process behind them.
If none of that existed and the overproduction of meat was not an issue and the earth was essentially in a state of nature, would you take issue with someone hunting a deer in the same way a bear hunts for salmon? None of the rampant consumerism, none of the environmental harm, just natural subsistence - is that problematic to you? Is the issue not more the way that we go about consuming animal products more than the actual act of consuming said animal products?
I'm not being intentionally facetious or trying to pull a 'gotcha' moment out, I just genuinely want to know |
On the questions in your 3 paragraph.
Veganism is about equal consideration.
A way to consider equal consideration is, there are plenty of examples of cannibalism in the animal kingdom, including chimps and apes, does that make it okay for humans? [Post edited 24 Feb 2021 21:03]
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| Vegetarianism and veganism on 21:10 - Feb 24 with 1440 views | theipswichfile |
| Vegetarianism and veganism on 21:02 - Feb 24 by eireblue |
On the questions in your 3 paragraph.
Veganism is about equal consideration.
A way to consider equal consideration is, there are plenty of examples of cannibalism in the animal kingdom, including chimps and apes, does that make it okay for humans? [Post edited 24 Feb 2021 21:03]
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That's quite a jump though isn't it - all other omnivores consume meat in some shape or form, but not all other omnivores have cannibalistic tendencies. One is a universal truth, the other is a specific outlier. | | | |
| Vegetarianism and veganism on 21:25 - Feb 24 with 1426 views | eireblue |
| Vegetarianism and veganism on 21:10 - Feb 24 by theipswichfile |
That's quite a jump though isn't it - all other omnivores consume meat in some shape or form, but not all other omnivores have cannibalistic tendencies. One is a universal truth, the other is a specific outlier. |
I am making a logical point.
A premise you made was to use an example from the animal kingdom, “... the same way a bear hunts for salmon...”
If it happens in the animal kingdom, does it mean it is okay for humans? | | | |
| Vegetarianism and veganism on 21:33 - Feb 24 with 1418 views | monytowbray |
| Vegetarianism and veganism on 20:23 - Feb 24 by textbackup |
shes now up the duff, so even madder! |
Tell her having a child is the least eco-friendly thing you can do if you fancy hell breaking lose! | |
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| Vegetarianism and veganism on 21:36 - Feb 24 with 1409 views | monytowbray |
| Vegetarianism and veganism on 20:51 - Feb 24 by theipswichfile |
I think the logical answer a lot of people would give you is that humans are omnivorous by nature. Therefore we could choose to eat meat, or choose not to. We are capable of choice and so I suppose most people would say that unless that choice is outright restricted, either choice is valid.
The wider point you make about the earth, about the conveyor-belt style of slaughterhouses and dairies and all of the nefarious things that go on in a society where we eat far too much meat are all completely valid and I absolutely back the thought process behind them.
If none of that existed and the overproduction of meat was not an issue and the earth was essentially in a state of nature, would you take issue with someone hunting a deer in the same way a bear hunts for salmon? None of the rampant consumerism, none of the environmental harm, just natural subsistence - is that problematic to you? Is the issue not more the way that we go about consuming animal products more than the actual act of consuming said animal products?
I'm not being intentionally facetious or trying to pull a 'gotcha' moment out, I just genuinely want to know |
I think the hunting/survival debate is interesting and will very much depend on society and where we’re at if/when we get that far. For me as a vegan it’s a no brainer I’d be against it ethically but there are economic factors in play. Then again of an animal is near by you can also say a source of plant food is too. | |
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| Vegetarianism and veganism on 21:39 - Feb 24 with 1406 views | theipswichfile |
| Vegetarianism and veganism on 21:25 - Feb 24 by eireblue |
I am making a logical point.
A premise you made was to use an example from the animal kingdom, “... the same way a bear hunts for salmon...”
If it happens in the animal kingdom, does it mean it is okay for humans? |
But it isn't a logical point because it does not apply to all omnivores. All omnivores eat meat, not all omnivores are cannibals. | | | |
| Vegetarianism and veganism on 21:39 - Feb 24 with 1405 views | monytowbray |
| Vegetarianism and veganism on 21:25 - Feb 24 by eireblue |
I am making a logical point.
A premise you made was to use an example from the animal kingdom, “... the same way a bear hunts for salmon...”
If it happens in the animal kingdom, does it mean it is okay for humans? |
That German bloke who cooked and ate that other bloke’s willy had it right. TBF, it was consensual meat which is more ethical than eating an animal that never had a say in the matter... | |
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| Vegetarianism and veganism on 21:41 - Feb 24 with 1404 views | eireblue |
| Vegetarianism and veganism on 21:39 - Feb 24 by theipswichfile |
But it isn't a logical point because it does not apply to all omnivores. All omnivores eat meat, not all omnivores are cannibals. |
So if it is okay for an omnivore it is okay for a human? | | | |
| Vegetarianism and veganism on 21:43 - Feb 24 with 1397 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Vegetarianism and veganism on 20:51 - Feb 24 by theipswichfile |
I think the logical answer a lot of people would give you is that humans are omnivorous by nature. Therefore we could choose to eat meat, or choose not to. We are capable of choice and so I suppose most people would say that unless that choice is outright restricted, either choice is valid.
The wider point you make about the earth, about the conveyor-belt style of slaughterhouses and dairies and all of the nefarious things that go on in a society where we eat far too much meat are all completely valid and I absolutely back the thought process behind them.
If none of that existed and the overproduction of meat was not an issue and the earth was essentially in a state of nature, would you take issue with someone hunting a deer in the same way a bear hunts for salmon? None of the rampant consumerism, none of the environmental harm, just natural subsistence - is that problematic to you? Is the issue not more the way that we go about consuming animal products more than the actual act of consuming said animal products?
I'm not being intentionally facetious or trying to pull a 'gotcha' moment out, I just genuinely want to know |
It's a fake argument in a way because the way we produce and consume food today is nowhere near what we evolved into as omnivores. Not even close. So purely from a health point of view it doesn't hold up.
Meat would have been a rarity and then probably gorged. We'd have gone long spell without meat and even with little food. And game then wouldn't resemble the meat we eat today. Even the humble chicken is unrecognisable today compared to 50 years ago due to the selective breeding and all the crap they pump into them - far more fatty, less lean and nutritious.
Choice is an interesting argument. I've not idea where it takes us, but yes people like having the choice. And where does that take us if we try and restrict it. It's a bit of a cliche, but as long as people are educated about food then they should be able to make their own mind up about what's best for them. How many people are genuinely educate about food though (I'd estimate I'm 50% there at best and that's probably fairly average). | |
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| Vegetarianism and veganism on 22:03 - Feb 24 with 1382 views | theipswichfile |
| Vegetarianism and veganism on 21:41 - Feb 24 by eireblue |
So if it is okay for an omnivore it is okay for a human? |
As humans are omnivorous, then yeah, I would think the logic would be that typical omnivorous behaviours of eating meats are fine for humans to do too - I'm not really trying to make a point beyond that, I'm also not condoning the mass production of meat and the many harms that go into that - just that on a basic level, if an omnivore can either eat or not eat meat, then as an omnivore, so can a human | | | |
| Vegetarianism and veganism on 22:15 - Feb 24 with 1370 views | eireblue |
| Vegetarianism and veganism on 22:03 - Feb 24 by theipswichfile |
As humans are omnivorous, then yeah, I would think the logic would be that typical omnivorous behaviours of eating meats are fine for humans to do too - I'm not really trying to make a point beyond that, I'm also not condoning the mass production of meat and the many harms that go into that - just that on a basic level, if an omnivore can either eat or not eat meat, then as an omnivore, so can a human |
You were asking about the vegan position.
As a vegan, I think humans should not be restricted in their actions by what typical omnivores do.
Humans have codes of ethics and display other behaviours that are different to other omnivores.
If you think humans are the same as omnivores, why shouldn’t humans do what other omnivores do?
There is evidence that Neanderthals did a bit of cannibalism, other human tribes have been cannibals.
Your point seems to be other similar things do it, so surely it is okay for humans to do it.
I think humans should and can be better than your average run of the mill omnivore.
When you start to delve into that a little bit more, you start to understand veganism.
Veganism is not about a plant based diet.
It is about equal consideration. [Post edited 24 Feb 2021 22:16]
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| Vegetarianism and veganism on 22:22 - Feb 24 with 1359 views | theipswichfile |
| Vegetarianism and veganism on 21:43 - Feb 24 by Swansea_Blue |
It's a fake argument in a way because the way we produce and consume food today is nowhere near what we evolved into as omnivores. Not even close. So purely from a health point of view it doesn't hold up.
Meat would have been a rarity and then probably gorged. We'd have gone long spell without meat and even with little food. And game then wouldn't resemble the meat we eat today. Even the humble chicken is unrecognisable today compared to 50 years ago due to the selective breeding and all the crap they pump into them - far more fatty, less lean and nutritious.
Choice is an interesting argument. I've not idea where it takes us, but yes people like having the choice. And where does that take us if we try and restrict it. It's a bit of a cliche, but as long as people are educated about food then they should be able to make their own mind up about what's best for them. How many people are genuinely educate about food though (I'd estimate I'm 50% there at best and that's probably fairly average). |
Yeah absolutely, the situation I am describing is exactly what you are describing in the 2nd paragraph - nowhere near the level of consumption that happens today. Whilst what I put forward is clearly an exaggerated version, all I'm asking is that if there were no capitalist structures for the production of animal products, would it be ethically wrong to eat meat caught by hunting and caught on an infrequent and hunter-gatherer subsistence basis?
I'm not saying one way or another is wrong, just curious what vegans think on the subject as obviously they have already made the switch to not consuming animal products. My personal stance is that it is the food industry that is the problem rather than the consumption of animal products.
Maybe my perspective would be different if we were not top of the food-chain 
I suspect you are right about the majority of people not being educated about food, however, for better or worse our culture is one of individual freedoms so reforms to the food industry is the first thing that needs to happen to bring about more widespread change.
I think my overall point is just that you're not a bad person because you choose to eat meat and you're not necessarily a good person just because you choose not to - you're just a product of your environment. The only thing that will change the balance is a global shift in policy rather than just growing numbers of individuals switching to veganism (although it's not doing any harm).That probably won't be popular but I've said my piece  | | | |
| Vegetarianism and veganism on 22:32 - Feb 24 with 1350 views | theipswichfile |
| Vegetarianism and veganism on 22:15 - Feb 24 by eireblue |
You were asking about the vegan position.
As a vegan, I think humans should not be restricted in their actions by what typical omnivores do.
Humans have codes of ethics and display other behaviours that are different to other omnivores.
If you think humans are the same as omnivores, why shouldn’t humans do what other omnivores do?
There is evidence that Neanderthals did a bit of cannibalism, other human tribes have been cannibals.
Your point seems to be other similar things do it, so surely it is okay for humans to do it.
I think humans should and can be better than your average run of the mill omnivore.
When you start to delve into that a little bit more, you start to understand veganism.
Veganism is not about a plant based diet.
It is about equal consideration. [Post edited 24 Feb 2021 22:16]
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Yeah that's a fair point, but I personally don't see the harm in eating meat if it is at a more sustainable level - my issue is the environmental harm and the harm to animals by the systems we have in place for feeding the world. We eat a lot more meat than we did in the past and that to me is the problem.
That's my stance though so yeah, fair enough I get what you're saying and that is a fair answer, I just don't personally see it as an issue to eat something living. I would still consider being vegan at some point, just not for that reason.
Clearly there is a big difference between us and other omnivores so yeah, I could see why you would expect us to be more than just another omnivore. But still in the grand scheme of things, that is all we are, just another omnivore. | | | |
| Vegetarianism and veganism on 22:35 - Feb 24 with 1342 views | eireblue |
| Vegetarianism and veganism on 22:22 - Feb 24 by theipswichfile |
Yeah absolutely, the situation I am describing is exactly what you are describing in the 2nd paragraph - nowhere near the level of consumption that happens today. Whilst what I put forward is clearly an exaggerated version, all I'm asking is that if there were no capitalist structures for the production of animal products, would it be ethically wrong to eat meat caught by hunting and caught on an infrequent and hunter-gatherer subsistence basis?
I'm not saying one way or another is wrong, just curious what vegans think on the subject as obviously they have already made the switch to not consuming animal products. My personal stance is that it is the food industry that is the problem rather than the consumption of animal products.
Maybe my perspective would be different if we were not top of the food-chain
I suspect you are right about the majority of people not being educated about food, however, for better or worse our culture is one of individual freedoms so reforms to the food industry is the first thing that needs to happen to bring about more widespread change.
I think my overall point is just that you're not a bad person because you choose to eat meat and you're not necessarily a good person just because you choose not to - you're just a product of your environment. The only thing that will change the balance is a global shift in policy rather than just growing numbers of individuals switching to veganism (although it's not doing any harm).That probably won't be popular but I've said my piece |
BTW, on the food chain thing, humans are not on top of the food chain.
I usually cite an article on that, but I wanted to try an analogy.
Imagine some animals all equi-distant from each other, a hungry lion, a hungry hyena, a gazelle, and you.
What you may wonder, as the gazelle is bouncing away, and you are being shared between a couple of real top cats and dogs, is that maybe, even gazelles are further up the food chain than humans. | | | |
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