| A flouncer's perspective... 13:16 - May 13 with 1241 views | borge |
I think many of those having a wee dig at those of us who are experiencing an 'Ipswich way' meltdown today are missing the point.
No-one but no-one in their right mind could possibly want to retain the failure and culture we've experienced in the past 18 or so years. But, in suggesting that those of us advocating the retention of the 'Ipswich way' are happy with failure, you are assuming that we are associating that 18 year period with the 'Ipswich way'. I would suggest that this isn't what people are saying at all.
I can only speak for myself in saying that I am absolutely 100% keen on change (who honestly wants to sit through more of the dross that has been served up during the Marcus Evans era?), but there are degrees of change and if change is so sweeping that you lose much of what binds people together, then how is that positive?
Whilst I recognise that for many it appears to be only the name, location and colour of the club that acts as the glue, for others there is a sense of history and culture (real or imagined) that is very keenly felt. Accepting that we aren't including failure and mediocrity as part of that culture, is it so wrong to want to retain that?
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| A flouncer's perspective... on 13:21 - May 13 with 1202 views | SouperJim |
I think the bone of contention here is the culture you identify with went about 20 years ago give or take. It's hard to retain something that no longer exists, so we need to find a new "Ipswich Way" which can succeed in the modern game. And yes, hopefully it can include at least some of the things you and others identify with, which I completely agree are admirable. |  |
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| A flouncer's perspective... on 13:23 - May 13 with 1188 views | Kropotkin123 |
I'm not one taking a dig, but I do wonder, what are you losing that has bound us together? |  |
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| A flouncer's perspective... on 13:25 - May 13 with 1177 views | borge |
| A flouncer's perspective... on 13:21 - May 13 by SouperJim |
I think the bone of contention here is the culture you identify with went about 20 years ago give or take. It's hard to retain something that no longer exists, so we need to find a new "Ipswich Way" which can succeed in the modern game. And yes, hopefully it can include at least some of the things you and others identify with, which I completely agree are admirable. |
And that is something I would be very happy with! I think we've found the common ground here SouperJim...! | | | |
| A flouncer's perspective... on 13:31 - May 13 with 1158 views | itfcjoe |
Ditto, I'm happy for change, and will embrace it when it does all come.
But it's when you see the sort of football the likes of Downes, Dozzell, Woolfie are capable of (more infrequently than we'd like), the relationships they already have on the pitch from years and years of playing together.....
.......then when you see Cook coming in and saying the players aren't fit enough etc, so have been badly conditioned by the previous regime and that in effect it is too late in the season for him to do anything about......
......that you just hope he sees that talent, the same talent that recruitment teams at Premier League and top end Championship clubs have seen, and the England set up has seen.......
......that he sees how badly coached they were undr Lambert, how ponderous a set up was under Lambert.....
......that you think, there is an attitude of I can't wait to get my teeth into these boys with a proper pre season, help them reach their high ceilings, be a big part of their journey and help turn them from £1m players into £10m players.....
......to utilise these players who have been let down by the club in recent years.....to surrond them with his players......to get them winning...... |  |
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| A flouncer's perspective... on 13:32 - May 13 with 1147 views | borge |
| A flouncer's perspective... on 13:23 - May 13 by Kropotkin123 |
I'm not one taking a dig, but I do wonder, what are you losing that has bound us together? |
It's a great question and something that over the course of the morning I have come to realise is very different for different people.
For me it comes down to three core 'tenets':
Honesty, integrity, decency
Exciting, passing football
A belief in being able to cultivate good young players who can meet the above two aspects
Has this always applied to the club? Absolutely not. Has it applied to the club in the past 18 years? Definitely not.
Does this actually bind us together? No, it seems that it doesn't - some people are more driven by success than culture, but from a selfish perspective I need to believe that I belong to something worth more than just points on the board (not that we've had many of those in recent years!). | | | |
| A flouncer's perspective... on 13:35 - May 13 with 1130 views | Herbivore |
| A flouncer's perspective... on 13:31 - May 13 by itfcjoe |
Ditto, I'm happy for change, and will embrace it when it does all come.
But it's when you see the sort of football the likes of Downes, Dozzell, Woolfie are capable of (more infrequently than we'd like), the relationships they already have on the pitch from years and years of playing together.....
.......then when you see Cook coming in and saying the players aren't fit enough etc, so have been badly conditioned by the previous regime and that in effect it is too late in the season for him to do anything about......
......that you just hope he sees that talent, the same talent that recruitment teams at Premier League and top end Championship clubs have seen, and the England set up has seen.......
......that he sees how badly coached they were undr Lambert, how ponderous a set up was under Lambert.....
......that you think, there is an attitude of I can't wait to get my teeth into these boys with a proper pre season, help them reach their high ceilings, be a big part of their journey and help turn them from £1m players into £10m players.....
......to utilise these players who have been let down by the club in recent years.....to surrond them with his players......to get them winning...... |
Yep. It's a worry that Cook seems to want to entirely distance himself from anything and everything that has been part of the club this season. I've said elsewhere that it feels like throwing the baby out with the bath water and I stand by that. Cook should feel confident that he can get these players to perform to a higher level with a full preseason and some better players around them. That he doesn't is a bit troubling for me. |  |
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| A flouncer's perspective... on 13:44 - May 13 with 1079 views | ghostofescobar |
Having watched Town since the mid 70's, I have some sympathy with your comments. Personally, I've never quite understood what the "Ipswich Way" is? To me, perhaps it's Robson, the Cobbold's, plucky club punching above its weight.......?? I don't get how the sweeping changes to the squad is losing what binds us together? In two or three years we will have largely forgotten who was in the squad last season. |  |
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| A flouncer's perspective... on 13:46 - May 13 with 1074 views | Guthrum |
| A flouncer's perspective... on 13:32 - May 13 by borge |
It's a great question and something that over the course of the morning I have come to realise is very different for different people.
For me it comes down to three core 'tenets':
Honesty, integrity, decency
Exciting, passing football
A belief in being able to cultivate good young players who can meet the above two aspects
Has this always applied to the club? Absolutely not. Has it applied to the club in the past 18 years? Definitely not.
Does this actually bind us together? No, it seems that it doesn't - some people are more driven by success than culture, but from a selfish perspective I need to believe that I belong to something worth more than just points on the board (not that we've had many of those in recent years!). |
It's only really the third of those which has been threatened, with some of the more prized younger players among the current crop effectively being transfer listed.
But we aren't losing the Academy altogether. Cook has shown considerable interest in the Youth setup, hanging out with Dyer, going to the pub with Klug and making a point of celebrating the U18 cup quarter final triumph.
He is (potentially) discarding a number of individuals, not the whole structure. Plus if the squad size limit remains in place for next season, he's going to need a fair bit of input from the younger players. |  |
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| A flouncer's perspective... on 13:48 - May 13 with 1052 views | Kropotkin123 |
| A flouncer's perspective... on 13:32 - May 13 by borge |
It's a great question and something that over the course of the morning I have come to realise is very different for different people.
For me it comes down to three core 'tenets':
Honesty, integrity, decency
Exciting, passing football
A belief in being able to cultivate good young players who can meet the above two aspects
Has this always applied to the club? Absolutely not. Has it applied to the club in the past 18 years? Definitely not.
Does this actually bind us together? No, it seems that it doesn't - some people are more driven by success than culture, but from a selfish perspective I need to believe that I belong to something worth more than just points on the board (not that we've had many of those in recent years!). |
I agree with the tenets. But I do feel we have a bias towards our own academy players. I feel we are so keen for them to be the next Dyer, Bramble, Wright, Wickham, etc that we don't see the reality. I really don't see the qualities to succeed in the majority of this bunch.
What has someone like Bishop done over the past 5 years that suggests he is worth keeping? I struggle to give you a positive answer.
I really don't want Dobra to go and I'm keen for Downes to stay. But it goes both ways and as I said in an earlier post... Sitters made the point that Downes doesn't even want to stay, so why are we getting so worked up about the prospect of him leaving.
If a tenet is honesty, integrity and decency, why are we persisting with a lad who wants to move on. Let's have the decency for him to join Palace and make something of himself, if that is what his best option is. And get someone in who has the integrity to want to be here 100%
Exciting, passing football is a must for me too. But we are not losing that. We've already lost it. Football under MM was ****, and it has often been worse since. The Ipswich way is above that, and we need to reclaim it. Following the same trodden path, with the same players and same mentality doesn't reclaim it, in my opinion of course.
A hard reset it good, whether PC is good enough to pull it off remains to be seen. But I'm not upset about it.
I do strongly disagree with the appointment of Jeffers though on moral grounds and think that this is not the Ipswich way. Not for me anyway. [Post edited 13 May 2021 13:52]
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| A flouncer's perspective... on 13:49 - May 13 with 1051 views | borge |
| A flouncer's perspective... on 13:44 - May 13 by ghostofescobar |
Having watched Town since the mid 70's, I have some sympathy with your comments. Personally, I've never quite understood what the "Ipswich Way" is? To me, perhaps it's Robson, the Cobbold's, plucky club punching above its weight.......?? I don't get how the sweeping changes to the squad is losing what binds us together? In two or three years we will have largely forgotten who was in the squad last season. |
Yes, I think the "punching above its weight" bit is probably part of it.
I think it's probably more than the sweeping changes to the squad that are concerning some of us. I think if we had sweeping changes to club infrastructure, or sweeping changes to coaching staff or sweeping changes to playing staff in isolation we'd all feel a bit less wobbly (appreciate I am talking on behalf of others here!), but it is the fact they are all coming in tandem. It's the concern that if there is such a thing as the 'Ipswich way' it will be lost because the entire club is effectively being 'renewed'.
What I find very interesting about all of these discussions today as that for many people there is no 'Ipswich way' which for me begs the question, what gives you the sense of belonging that others get from believing that there is? | | | |
| A flouncer's perspective... on 13:52 - May 13 with 1020 views | borge |
| A flouncer's perspective... on 13:46 - May 13 by Guthrum |
It's only really the third of those which has been threatened, with some of the more prized younger players among the current crop effectively being transfer listed.
But we aren't losing the Academy altogether. Cook has shown considerable interest in the Youth setup, hanging out with Dyer, going to the pub with Klug and making a point of celebrating the U18 cup quarter final triumph.
He is (potentially) discarding a number of individuals, not the whole structure. Plus if the squad size limit remains in place for next season, he's going to need a fair bit of input from the younger players. |
I agree - it's very clearly not the entire structure, but I think it's the degree of change and the fact the change is arguably happening before the new ownership and management team have given themselves reasonable time to assess things in the cold light of day that is causes our flouncing. | | | |
| A flouncer's perspective... on 13:58 - May 13 with 987 views | borge |
| A flouncer's perspective... on 13:48 - May 13 by Kropotkin123 |
I agree with the tenets. But I do feel we have a bias towards our own academy players. I feel we are so keen for them to be the next Dyer, Bramble, Wright, Wickham, etc that we don't see the reality. I really don't see the qualities to succeed in the majority of this bunch.
What has someone like Bishop done over the past 5 years that suggests he is worth keeping? I struggle to give you a positive answer.
I really don't want Dobra to go and I'm keen for Downes to stay. But it goes both ways and as I said in an earlier post... Sitters made the point that Downes doesn't even want to stay, so why are we getting so worked up about the prospect of him leaving.
If a tenet is honesty, integrity and decency, why are we persisting with a lad who wants to move on. Let's have the decency for him to join Palace and make something of himself, if that is what his best option is. And get someone in who has the integrity to want to be here 100%
Exciting, passing football is a must for me too. But we are not losing that. We've already lost it. Football under MM was ****, and it has often been worse since. The Ipswich way is above that, and we need to reclaim it. Following the same trodden path, with the same players and same mentality doesn't reclaim it, in my opinion of course.
A hard reset it good, whether PC is good enough to pull it off remains to be seen. But I'm not upset about it.
I do strongly disagree with the appointment of Jeffers though on moral grounds and think that this is not the Ipswich way. Not for me anyway. [Post edited 13 May 2021 13:52]
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I agree with your post 100% with a caveat in relation to the degree of the hard reset.
Do I actually care that Bishop might go? Well I would be disappointed for him, but ultimately in isolation, no. I am not even sure that I care that Dobra might go. And as for Downes, you are spot-on. It's just questionable as to whether they should all be going at once seemingly along with 90% of the rest of the squad.
But this for me is the crux of things:
"Exciting, passing football is a must for me too. But we are not losing that. We've already lost it. Football under MM was ****, and it has often been worse since. The Ipswich way is above that, and we need to reclaim it."
If we can get that right and retain some sense of 'decency' in doing so, then I suspect I will be happy. | | | |
| A flouncer's perspective... on 14:00 - May 13 with 974 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
Who of the current squad embody that history and culture? Dozzell through his name I guess, but who else? |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| A flouncer's perspective... on 14:04 - May 13 with 958 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| A flouncer's perspective... on 13:31 - May 13 by itfcjoe |
Ditto, I'm happy for change, and will embrace it when it does all come.
But it's when you see the sort of football the likes of Downes, Dozzell, Woolfie are capable of (more infrequently than we'd like), the relationships they already have on the pitch from years and years of playing together.....
.......then when you see Cook coming in and saying the players aren't fit enough etc, so have been badly conditioned by the previous regime and that in effect it is too late in the season for him to do anything about......
......that you just hope he sees that talent, the same talent that recruitment teams at Premier League and top end Championship clubs have seen, and the England set up has seen.......
......that he sees how badly coached they were undr Lambert, how ponderous a set up was under Lambert.....
......that you think, there is an attitude of I can't wait to get my teeth into these boys with a proper pre season, help them reach their high ceilings, be a big part of their journey and help turn them from £1m players into £10m players.....
......to utilise these players who have been let down by the club in recent years.....to surrond them with his players......to get them winning...... |
You say you're happy for change but you sound, like many on here, absolutely terrified by it. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| A flouncer's perspective... on 14:11 - May 13 with 933 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| A flouncer's perspective... on 13:35 - May 13 by Herbivore |
Yep. It's a worry that Cook seems to want to entirely distance himself from anything and everything that has been part of the club this season. I've said elsewhere that it feels like throwing the baby out with the bath water and I stand by that. Cook should feel confident that he can get these players to perform to a higher level with a full preseason and some better players around them. That he doesn't is a bit troubling for me. |
The problem is we don't have a baby, we just have bathwater. And maybe one or two rubber ducks with potential. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| A flouncer's perspective... on 14:11 - May 13 with 933 views | borge |
| A flouncer's perspective... on 14:00 - May 13 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Who of the current squad embody that history and culture? Dozzell through his name I guess, but who else? |
I wouldn't say anyone in particular (if anyone at all). Possibly it could be argued that some of the players who have come through the academy have an understanding of it, but do they embody it, no.
I am not even advocating that we don't take a broom to the current squad and actually, the Stuart Watson thread ref aiming for 'big name' players makes me very excited - to the point of being largely nonplussed about getting rid of the likes of Dozzell, Dobra, Downes etc etc. What I am saying is that if you decimate multiple elements of an organisation, you will lose many of the good aspects as well as the bad. From the outside it feels like relatively little thought has gone into some of the changes and their impact on the positives that can no doubt be found within the club with a little time and effort.
And just to add to that, no, I am not terrified of change - see above. [Post edited 13 May 2021 14:12]
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| A flouncer's perspective... on 14:15 - May 13 with 905 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| A flouncer's perspective... on 13:44 - May 13 by ghostofescobar |
Having watched Town since the mid 70's, I have some sympathy with your comments. Personally, I've never quite understood what the "Ipswich Way" is? To me, perhaps it's Robson, the Cobbold's, plucky club punching above its weight.......?? I don't get how the sweeping changes to the squad is losing what binds us together? In two or three years we will have largely forgotten who was in the squad last season. |
For me this club is about punching above its weight relative to the bigger boys in bigger cities. And the blue, the history and the ground. And John Wark's tash.
I've forgotten more Ipswich players than I've loved. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| A flouncer's perspective... on 14:20 - May 13 with 889 views | Guthrum |
| A flouncer's perspective... on 13:52 - May 13 by borge |
I agree - it's very clearly not the entire structure, but I think it's the degree of change and the fact the change is arguably happening before the new ownership and management team have given themselves reasonable time to assess things in the cold light of day that is causes our flouncing. |
He's had ten weeks - 16 matches - to form an opinion. A lot longer than most pre-seasons.
I wouldn't call it flouncing, more an expression of reasonable concerns given the potential extent and nature of the changes to the squad. Some of which - particularly concerning the younger players - are quite emotive subjects. | |
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| A flouncer's perspective... on 14:57 - May 13 with 813 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| A flouncer's perspective... on 14:11 - May 13 by borge |
I wouldn't say anyone in particular (if anyone at all). Possibly it could be argued that some of the players who have come through the academy have an understanding of it, but do they embody it, no.
I am not even advocating that we don't take a broom to the current squad and actually, the Stuart Watson thread ref aiming for 'big name' players makes me very excited - to the point of being largely nonplussed about getting rid of the likes of Dozzell, Dobra, Downes etc etc. What I am saying is that if you decimate multiple elements of an organisation, you will lose many of the good aspects as well as the bad. From the outside it feels like relatively little thought has gone into some of the changes and their impact on the positives that can no doubt be found within the club with a little time and effort.
And just to add to that, no, I am not terrified of change - see above. [Post edited 13 May 2021 14:12]
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I'd say however it feels to you, I'd very much doubt relatively little thought has gone into the changes. These people didn't come down with the last shower. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| A flouncer's perspective... on 15:00 - May 13 with 793 views | Herbivore |
| A flouncer's perspective... on 14:11 - May 13 by The_Flashing_Smile |
The problem is we don't have a baby, we just have bathwater. And maybe one or two rubber ducks with potential. |
Disagree. A number of those young players have shown plenty of potential and I'm not going to buy into this rewriting of history that suggests everything and everyone at the club is crap. | |
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| A flouncer's perspective... on 15:03 - May 13 with 780 views | catch74 |
| A flouncer's perspective... on 13:31 - May 13 by itfcjoe |
Ditto, I'm happy for change, and will embrace it when it does all come.
But it's when you see the sort of football the likes of Downes, Dozzell, Woolfie are capable of (more infrequently than we'd like), the relationships they already have on the pitch from years and years of playing together.....
.......then when you see Cook coming in and saying the players aren't fit enough etc, so have been badly conditioned by the previous regime and that in effect it is too late in the season for him to do anything about......
......that you just hope he sees that talent, the same talent that recruitment teams at Premier League and top end Championship clubs have seen, and the England set up has seen.......
......that he sees how badly coached they were undr Lambert, how ponderous a set up was under Lambert.....
......that you think, there is an attitude of I can't wait to get my teeth into these boys with a proper pre season, help them reach their high ceilings, be a big part of their journey and help turn them from £1m players into £10m players.....
......to utilise these players who have been let down by the club in recent years.....to surrond them with his players......to get them winning...... |
Cook had even been pretty effusive about Dozzell when doing Sky commentary. I’d love to see his half time bit again ‘we’ for Ipswich etc.
I do wonder if he’s a bit gutted, thought he’d come in and there’d be an immediate upturn. The situation when he arrived, you’d more often than not expect to get into the play offs. |  |
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| A flouncer's perspective... on 15:42 - May 13 with 726 views | WD19 |
| A flouncer's perspective... on 15:03 - May 13 by catch74 |
Cook had even been pretty effusive about Dozzell when doing Sky commentary. I’d love to see his half time bit again ‘we’ for Ipswich etc.
I do wonder if he’s a bit gutted, thought he’d come in and there’d be an immediate upturn. The situation when he arrived, you’d more often than not expect to get into the play offs. |
For me it all comes down to the nuance of what exactly was said.
A big dose of "If you don't want to be here I don't want you here so feel free to find a new club and I will let you go" is 100% fine.
If he has told every man that came into his office that "you are categorically not part of my plans so you might as well sling your hook" it is very different.
Are we 100% sure that all players got the same script? |  | | |
| A flouncer's perspective... on 15:49 - May 13 with 707 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| A flouncer's perspective... on 15:00 - May 13 by Herbivore |
Disagree. A number of those young players have shown plenty of potential and I'm not going to buy into this rewriting of history that suggests everything and everyone at the club is crap. |
I'm not sure it's rewriting of history. What history have you been looking at? We've been going downhill for years. If anything we'd be relegation candidates (again) next year if it weren't for the new owners. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| A flouncer's perspective... on 15:52 - May 13 with 694 views | CaptMickMills |
Well put and I agree with what you say. | | | |
| A flouncer's perspective... on 16:20 - May 13 with 658 views | Herbivore |
| A flouncer's perspective... on 15:49 - May 13 by The_Flashing_Smile |
I'm not sure it's rewriting of history. What history have you been looking at? We've been going downhill for years. If anything we'd be relegation candidates (again) next year if it weren't for the new owners. |
The history I'm looking at is Woolfenden and Downes standing out at this level a year ago, prior to the ridiculous decision to embark on this season with Lambert still at the helm. I'm also referring to the history where, as teenagers, Downes, Dozzell and Bishop played multiple times in the Championship without looking out of their depth. Even Lankester, to a lesser extent. These are young players who have at various times shown they have plenty of ability. Writing them off as crap and worthy of binning off because we're all desperate for the new manger to be a success is very much rewriting history. | |
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