| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer 14:05 - May 16 with 4088 views | Darth_Koont |
As Labour slides into irrelevance and the Greens seem to be emerging as the third party in England & Wales, he’d be an utter fool not to build an alliance of some description. Let alone that the environment is the single most important challenge we face and where petty party allegiances and factional ambitions should go out the window.
So, of course, he won’t take it.
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| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 17:04 - May 16 with 796 views | tractordownsouth |
| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 14:52 - May 16 by Darth_Koont |
The more the merrier. And I think the SNP would be a parliamentary ally at least.
The key is to embrace a progressive Green platform though. One which actually invests in and helps restructure our economy and addresses issues like regional inequalities and our low productivity. So a bit more than recycling bins, fewer shopping bags and protests against whaling.
If the LibDems are up for that then great. I don’t think the current Labour lot are anyway. Where’s the power, influence and money in green industries? Or in addressing inequalities? |
Re your last paragraph - this is PMQs from Wednesday.
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| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 17:05 - May 16 with 796 views | bluelagos |
| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 17:01 - May 16 by tractordownsouth |
I like the idea of left and centre-left parties helping each other, but I don't really see where the Greens can benefit from this. Their number 1 target seat is Bristol West but that area currently has a Labour MP so there's no point standing down there. The rest of their targets are a mixture, but they're not exactly winnable - they'd need to overturn 20k majorities to do so. An alliance with the Lib Dems seems most workable and sensible. Of their 20 target seats, 18 are held by the Tories so they seem the best ones to go for. However, I don't think having candidates drop out is the best tactic though - for example, Lib Dems stepping aside for Labour could actually pose problems as some Lib Dems would rather vote Tory than Labour. A better alternative would be to put paper candidates up but for those candidates not to campaign. Fairly certain that the Labour Party constitution requires candidates in every seat anyway.
As an aside, it's difficult to tell if the Greens will actually do anything or if they're just benefiting from the "feck the lot of them" vote that UKIP and the Lib Dems enjoyed over the years. Also will be interesting to see if their vote share is as high in a General Election, where people vote tactically, even without alliances. |
Surely if any pact meant they got a free run at some seats, they could win some.
Look at the green results in the Suffolk council elections. I reckon outside of Ipswich, Labour would never win in most Suffolk rural constituencies. But a rainbow/green candidate up against a tory - you might have a chance. |  |
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| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 17:08 - May 16 with 792 views | JohnTy |
| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 17:01 - May 16 by tractordownsouth |
I like the idea of left and centre-left parties helping each other, but I don't really see where the Greens can benefit from this. Their number 1 target seat is Bristol West but that area currently has a Labour MP so there's no point standing down there. The rest of their targets are a mixture, but they're not exactly winnable - they'd need to overturn 20k majorities to do so. An alliance with the Lib Dems seems most workable and sensible. Of their 20 target seats, 18 are held by the Tories so they seem the best ones to go for. However, I don't think having candidates drop out is the best tactic though - for example, Lib Dems stepping aside for Labour could actually pose problems as some Lib Dems would rather vote Tory than Labour. A better alternative would be to put paper candidates up but for those candidates not to campaign. Fairly certain that the Labour Party constitution requires candidates in every seat anyway.
As an aside, it's difficult to tell if the Greens will actually do anything or if they're just benefiting from the "feck the lot of them" vote that UKIP and the Lib Dems enjoyed over the years. Also will be interesting to see if their vote share is as high in a General Election, where people vote tactically, even without alliances. |
Interesting goings on in Stockport where the Lib Dems are now the largest party, and the Labour Party are in talks with Ratepayers and Conservatives to stay in power! Chances of a centre/left alliance against the Tories anyone?
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/stockport-c |  | | |
| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 17:11 - May 16 with 780 views | tractordownsouth |
| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 17:05 - May 16 by bluelagos |
Surely if any pact meant they got a free run at some seats, they could win some.
Look at the green results in the Suffolk council elections. I reckon outside of Ipswich, Labour would never win in most Suffolk rural constituencies. But a rainbow/green candidate up against a tory - you might have a chance. |
Potentially not a bad idea - personally I'd be up for letting the greens have a free run at seats Labour will never win (literally everywhere except Ipswich in Suffolk - after 2019 even Waveney is out of reach) but then they wouldn't gain anything from it so would wonder what they'd want in return. Caroline Lucas as Environment Sec in a Labour cabinet? Probably not a bad price to pay as there will be a lot of common ground in that issues.
Seems like free run for Greens and paper candidates with Lib Dems is a better way of doing it. | |
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| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 17:13 - May 16 with 777 views | tractordownsouth |
Yep - not happy about that. Lib Dems and Greens have jumped into bed with the Tories in London as well so I feel any sort of alliance is a long way off. Lab-Lib coalition has just kicked the Tories out in Cambridgeshire though | |
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| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 17:45 - May 16 with 743 views | JohnTy |
| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 17:13 - May 16 by tractordownsouth |
Yep - not happy about that. Lib Dems and Greens have jumped into bed with the Tories in London as well so I feel any sort of alliance is a long way off. Lab-Lib coalition has just kicked the Tories out in Cambridgeshire though |
I think there is more chance of centre-left agreement outside the Metropolitan areas which Labour regards as its own turf. | | | |
| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 17:54 - May 16 with 728 views | Darth_Koont |
| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 15:23 - May 16 by StokieBlue |
Out of interest did you make the same points about Corbyn when he flatly rejected working with the Greens or any other party to build a progressive alliance?
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/jeremy-corbyn-rules-out-progressive-allia
On the actual subject an moving away from the "Starmer" angle, it's a good idea and clearly the Greens should have more of a voice going forward.
SB [Post edited 16 May 2021 15:24]
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Corbyn already had a progressive, Green platform – one that was even recognised as going further than the Green Party themselves.
I’m sure he would have worked with them though. Just like the SNP work with the Greens.
But now Labour are in a crisis where they need an alliance and they need ideas (the two are connected). | |
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| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 18:18 - May 16 with 697 views | WeWereZombies |
| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 17:54 - May 16 by Darth_Koont |
Corbyn already had a progressive, Green platform – one that was even recognised as going further than the Green Party themselves.
I’m sure he would have worked with them though. Just like the SNP work with the Greens.
But now Labour are in a crisis where they need an alliance and they need ideas (the two are connected). |
The SNP work with the Scottish Greens simply because the latter party are significantly pro-Independence and, at the moment, the SNP look like they will need the Greens to win votes on IndyRef#2.
The last time I asked (2015 maybe) there was no compulsion to be pro-Independence to be a Green Party member but it does seem to be expected. |  |
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| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 18:18 - May 16 with 697 views | Darth_Koont |
| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 17:04 - May 16 by tractordownsouth |
Re your last paragraph - this is PMQs from Wednesday.
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I was thinking more about the Greens giving him the trustworthy, consistent message and the credentials. I don’t find his statements do that when he seems to change so often.
But great if he can get back to his pledges. He should never have distanced himself from them. | |
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| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 18:22 - May 16 with 689 views | Darth_Koont |
| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 18:18 - May 16 by WeWereZombies |
The SNP work with the Scottish Greens simply because the latter party are significantly pro-Independence and, at the moment, the SNP look like they will need the Greens to win votes on IndyRef#2.
The last time I asked (2015 maybe) there was no compulsion to be pro-Independence to be a Green Party member but it does seem to be expected. |
I don’t think it’s quite as simple as that. Certainly moving away from the oil and gas reliance and the need to redevelop the natural energy, on-shore economy also brings them closer in terms of policy.
But yes, the Scottish Greens do see independence and a return to the EU as a way to fight more effectively for the environment. I don’t disagree. | |
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| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 18:25 - May 16 with 678 views | Timefliesbyintheblue |
There is another way, I hasten to add;
Bring back the Labour Party that I used to know that will tackle Social Care Reform, tackle A Living Wage, tackle Cheaper Mortgages for the under 35's with little or no deposit, tackle the stupidity regarding Tuition Fees, tackle scrapping Junk Mail and live in the real world regarding Green Issues, tackle proving to Business that they can work with a progressive Labour Party, tackle being proactive regarding all forms of abuse physical and mental, including that on social media, etc etc and finally be honest with the voting public how all of this will be financed.
Then of course no alliances will be necessary - |  | | |
| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 18:42 - May 16 with 658 views | JohnTy |
| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 18:25 - May 16 by Timefliesbyintheblue |
There is another way, I hasten to add;
Bring back the Labour Party that I used to know that will tackle Social Care Reform, tackle A Living Wage, tackle Cheaper Mortgages for the under 35's with little or no deposit, tackle the stupidity regarding Tuition Fees, tackle scrapping Junk Mail and live in the real world regarding Green Issues, tackle proving to Business that they can work with a progressive Labour Party, tackle being proactive regarding all forms of abuse physical and mental, including that on social media, etc etc and finally be honest with the voting public how all of this will be financed.
Then of course no alliances will be necessary - |
I wonder when that Labour Party existed and what success it had?
The sad fact is that the UK has been dominated by the Conservative Party for a century. | | | |
| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 18:46 - May 16 with 653 views | Clapham_Junction |
| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 17:13 - May 16 by tractordownsouth |
Yep - not happy about that. Lib Dems and Greens have jumped into bed with the Tories in London as well so I feel any sort of alliance is a long way off. Lab-Lib coalition has just kicked the Tories out in Cambridgeshire though |
Labour are spinning it that way, but is not really what happened. The other parties suggested the committee chairmanships be divided up based on how many seats each party had. Labour refused, so the other parties split them up amongst themselves. |  | | |
| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 18:52 - May 16 with 642 views | Darth_Koont |
| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 18:25 - May 16 by Timefliesbyintheblue |
There is another way, I hasten to add;
Bring back the Labour Party that I used to know that will tackle Social Care Reform, tackle A Living Wage, tackle Cheaper Mortgages for the under 35's with little or no deposit, tackle the stupidity regarding Tuition Fees, tackle scrapping Junk Mail and live in the real world regarding Green Issues, tackle proving to Business that they can work with a progressive Labour Party, tackle being proactive regarding all forms of abuse physical and mental, including that on social media, etc etc and finally be honest with the voting public how all of this will be financed.
Then of course no alliances will be necessary - |
The Labour Party I know ignored the structural and regional imbalances in the economy, trapped us in a neoliberalist view of the world that justified bailing out banks and imposing austerity on ordinary people, embraced an unhelpful anti-immigration rhetoric, threw its weight around overseas and entered into an illegal war with massive loss of life and generally sowed the seeds for much of what we’ve been dealing with ever since.
That’s not a progressive party. And certainly the architects and cultists have missed the point if they think returning to it is the answer now.
Oh and by the way, we’ve not taken a “real world” approach to the environment before. That’s the whole problem. | |
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| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 18:58 - May 16 with 626 views | Timefliesbyintheblue |
| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 18:42 - May 16 by JohnTy |
I wonder when that Labour Party existed and what success it had?
The sad fact is that the UK has been dominated by the Conservative Party for a century. |
The point i was trying to make is that Labour has to adapt like it used to, and apply itself to the needs of the people; especially those who need a helping hand. Too many have appeared to have given up.
Any party that shows a genuine attempt to live in the real world and help with issues such as those I mentioned and many more will attract votes. It might even have to sever its links with the trade unions, but the country is crying out for a centre/left political party that will rise above the type of rhetoric we are currently experiencing. | | | |
| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 19:07 - May 16 with 617 views | lightuser |
| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 16:42 - May 16 by EdwardStone |
"Idealistic nonsense"
A tad harsh I feel
There is an ecological imperative....humans must change the way we live or the planet will carry on without us
The Green Party offers a set of well reasoned policies to enable a transition to a more sustainable future
Hardly "idealistic nonsense" |
"Idealistic nonsense".
Cowardly, mealy mouthed nonsense is a better description of their objectives/policies.
The greens are as bad as XR, greenpeace etc.
They barely touch on the cruelist, most unneccessary and yet one of the largest contributors to man made global warming, pollution, wasted water, habitat loss, biodiversity loss and starvation and poisoning of all species.
For starters they should be pushing for the banning of advertising these products (and banning the sponsored studies spinning the false suggestions that these products are any good). They should be stopping their distribution in schools and there should be MUCH more advertising as to why these products are unneccessary/injurious to health and downright cruel.
Obviously the M.E.A.T. industry and those addicted to their products will push back like mad (just like big tobacco via their sponsored quacks). But without even acknowledging the size of the problem, or what they believe they can achieve or push for in their policies, the Greens , XR etc are just abdicating their responsibilities and are basically being utterly dishonest.
As you can see I'm a little bit annoyed with how wimpy they are. :-))
Ps. I have not seen Callis on here recently and I know that he's big on this sort of stuff, is he ok? | | | |
| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 19:16 - May 16 with 604 views | Timefliesbyintheblue |
| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 18:52 - May 16 by Darth_Koont |
The Labour Party I know ignored the structural and regional imbalances in the economy, trapped us in a neoliberalist view of the world that justified bailing out banks and imposing austerity on ordinary people, embraced an unhelpful anti-immigration rhetoric, threw its weight around overseas and entered into an illegal war with massive loss of life and generally sowed the seeds for much of what we’ve been dealing with ever since.
That’s not a progressive party. And certainly the architects and cultists have missed the point if they think returning to it is the answer now.
Oh and by the way, we’ve not taken a “real world” approach to the environment before. That’s the whole problem. |
DK; you and I will differ on many many issues; the point I am trying to make is like ITFC, we must stop looking back and build again. In my opinion the Labour party has a golden opportunity, but it must learn to start thinking like its potential voters. Idealism is fine, but let us start with small building blocks and establish what the issues among ordinary folk really are. I think I mentioned a few previously and lets go with that.
The largest difference today is that personalities/looks/attire/etc play a huge part in getting the public onside. They shouldn't but they do - we have to unfortunately live with that! | | | |
| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 19:29 - May 16 with 597 views | WD19 |
| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 19:07 - May 16 by lightuser |
"Idealistic nonsense".
Cowardly, mealy mouthed nonsense is a better description of their objectives/policies.
The greens are as bad as XR, greenpeace etc.
They barely touch on the cruelist, most unneccessary and yet one of the largest contributors to man made global warming, pollution, wasted water, habitat loss, biodiversity loss and starvation and poisoning of all species.
For starters they should be pushing for the banning of advertising these products (and banning the sponsored studies spinning the false suggestions that these products are any good). They should be stopping their distribution in schools and there should be MUCH more advertising as to why these products are unneccessary/injurious to health and downright cruel.
Obviously the M.E.A.T. industry and those addicted to their products will push back like mad (just like big tobacco via their sponsored quacks). But without even acknowledging the size of the problem, or what they believe they can achieve or push for in their policies, the Greens , XR etc are just abdicating their responsibilities and are basically being utterly dishonest.
As you can see I'm a little bit annoyed with how wimpy they are. :-))
Ps. I have not seen Callis on here recently and I know that he's big on this sort of stuff, is he ok? |
If they had anything about them they would be advocating a global 1 child policy and the banning of keeping animals as pets. That’s about the only type of stuff that can save the planet at this stage.
Not big vote winners though, I imagine.
Keep on recycling your yoghurt pots folks. |  | | |
| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 19:47 - May 16 with 584 views | Darth_Koont |
| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 19:16 - May 16 by Timefliesbyintheblue |
DK; you and I will differ on many many issues; the point I am trying to make is like ITFC, we must stop looking back and build again. In my opinion the Labour party has a golden opportunity, but it must learn to start thinking like its potential voters. Idealism is fine, but let us start with small building blocks and establish what the issues among ordinary folk really are. I think I mentioned a few previously and lets go with that.
The largest difference today is that personalities/looks/attire/etc play a huge part in getting the public onside. They shouldn't but they do - we have to unfortunately live with that! |
Well, we certainly agree on the need to look forward. And if we want to learn from the past then it needs to be objective I.e. what worked and what didn’t.
Our politicians and political debate have been next to useless at that and similarly seeing where things are heading.
More and more, I think that’s because the modern politician and political journalist is more concerned about themselves and where they fit in/can monetize their position. | |
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| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 19:48 - May 16 with 580 views | lightuser |
| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 19:29 - May 16 by WD19 |
If they had anything about them they would be advocating a global 1 child policy and the banning of keeping animals as pets. That’s about the only type of stuff that can save the planet at this stage.
Not big vote winners though, I imagine.
Keep on recycling your yoghurt pots folks. |
Not sure a 1 child policy is necessary?
1st world nations are seeing a collapse in birthrate. Once other nation catch up, this will happen to them too (maybe as a species we will die out naturally!!).
Also, if we cut out M.E.A.T. farming we would have plenty of food/water, less pollution, lower rate of global warming etc. for a much higher population. | | | |
| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 19:51 - May 16 with 563 views | WD19 |
| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 19:48 - May 16 by lightuser |
Not sure a 1 child policy is necessary?
1st world nations are seeing a collapse in birthrate. Once other nation catch up, this will happen to them too (maybe as a species we will die out naturally!!).
Also, if we cut out M.E.A.T. farming we would have plenty of food/water, less pollution, lower rate of global warming etc. for a much higher population. |
The first person to live to 1,000 years old may well already have been born.
We are fooked. | | | |
| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 19:54 - May 16 with 550 views | J2BLUE |
| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 19:48 - May 16 by lightuser |
Not sure a 1 child policy is necessary?
1st world nations are seeing a collapse in birthrate. Once other nation catch up, this will happen to them too (maybe as a species we will die out naturally!!).
Also, if we cut out M.E.A.T. farming we would have plenty of food/water, less pollution, lower rate of global warming etc. for a much higher population. |
I'd love to see more education on how much difference it actually makes to choose a vegan option. Some of the numbers are staggering in terms of CO2 and water. I'm sure many people think it won't make any difference if they cut down but the numbers really hit home. |  |
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| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 20:06 - May 16 with 516 views | EdwardStone |
| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 19:07 - May 16 by lightuser |
"Idealistic nonsense".
Cowardly, mealy mouthed nonsense is a better description of their objectives/policies.
The greens are as bad as XR, greenpeace etc.
They barely touch on the cruelist, most unneccessary and yet one of the largest contributors to man made global warming, pollution, wasted water, habitat loss, biodiversity loss and starvation and poisoning of all species.
For starters they should be pushing for the banning of advertising these products (and banning the sponsored studies spinning the false suggestions that these products are any good). They should be stopping their distribution in schools and there should be MUCH more advertising as to why these products are unneccessary/injurious to health and downright cruel.
Obviously the M.E.A.T. industry and those addicted to their products will push back like mad (just like big tobacco via their sponsored quacks). But without even acknowledging the size of the problem, or what they believe they can achieve or push for in their policies, the Greens , XR etc are just abdicating their responsibilities and are basically being utterly dishonest.
As you can see I'm a little bit annoyed with how wimpy they are. :-))
Ps. I have not seen Callis on here recently and I know that he's big on this sort of stuff, is he ok? |
You sound very angry at those who are trying to change the system Mr Light
Agreed, the solutions that are being proposed ain't perfect. Nobody has claimed that they are
But at least XR, Greta. Green Party et al are trying to change the status quo
The alternative is pretty dismal
Just more of the same old same old
Is that what you want??? Really....just more of the same???
Vacuous promises...broken pledges
Embrace the change, be a part of the solution. Don't try to beat us to death just because we don't actually have our hands on the levers of power |  | | |
| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 20:26 - May 16 with 486 views | jeera |
| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 20:06 - May 16 by EdwardStone |
You sound very angry at those who are trying to change the system Mr Light
Agreed, the solutions that are being proposed ain't perfect. Nobody has claimed that they are
But at least XR, Greta. Green Party et al are trying to change the status quo
The alternative is pretty dismal
Just more of the same old same old
Is that what you want??? Really....just more of the same???
Vacuous promises...broken pledges
Embrace the change, be a part of the solution. Don't try to beat us to death just because we don't actually have our hands on the levers of power |
Agree myself.
No beef with lightuser at all, who I often find myself in agreement with, but am bewildered by his post here.
I knew Greenpeace members who were up on the roof of Sizewell back in the 80s/90s.
Out on the streets preaching heavily on the negative influence of plastics on the environment, the over consumption of meat.
Lobbying local and central government.
There were court cases and large fines meted out to members who made a constant nuisance of themselves to highlight GM crops...
Much of the movement we see now towards change is because of them. |  |
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| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 20:35 - May 16 with 470 views | lightuser |
| Throwing a lifeline to Starmer on 19:54 - May 16 by J2BLUE |
I'd love to see more education on how much difference it actually makes to choose a vegan option. Some of the numbers are staggering in terms of CO2 and water. I'm sure many people think it won't make any difference if they cut down but the numbers really hit home. |
Yes, this is what I find incredibly frustrating.
The Greens, Greenpeace etc have the resouces to do this, but aren't.
And as for XR, stop blocking airports, start blocking abbatoirs and meat farms (that would really get the Gammon's (geddit) steaming!).
Basically, SHOW THE FECKING DATA, EDUCATE...
Also, J2. I personally don't wish to have an living animal killed solely for my eating pleasure. For humans there is no nutritional reason to eat meat. Our bodies aren't even designed for it eg teeth, length of gut etc. | | | |
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