| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here 20:18 - Jul 25 with 5993 views | Darth_Koont |
It highlights the same problem with the current Blairite tribute act – they’re clueless and detached from the real world.
And that’s without even going into the disastrous semi-crusade that masqueraded as foreign policy. We need better from a supposed opposition. |  |
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| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 13:40 - Jul 27 with 2410 views | Darth_Koont |
| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 13:06 - Jul 27 by itfcjoe |
UKIP took over the Tory party and won, they inserted people at every level to get out certain type of One Nation Tory
Momentum took over the Labour party and lost, again inserting people at every level to try and drive out the more centrist people.
I'd imagine most people leaving the membership are Momentum entryists |
“Momentum took over the Labour Party”. Delusional and ignorant nonsense, I’m afraid.
When Corbyn became leader the majority of the PLP and the party organisation was against him and that carried on throughout. | |
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| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 13:46 - Jul 27 with 2394 views | itfcjoe |
| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 13:40 - Jul 27 by Darth_Koont |
“Momentum took over the Labour Party”. Delusional and ignorant nonsense, I’m afraid.
When Corbyn became leader the majority of the PLP and the party organisation was against him and that carried on throughout. |
There was a massive change between who was organising things in the Labour party between 2017 and 2019 - it's why the 2019 election was such a mess because Corbyn's team were going after people like Luciana Berger and Chukka Umunna with their election spending rather than targetting seats they actually needed tow in |  |
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| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 13:52 - Jul 27 with 2380 views | Darth_Koont |
| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 13:46 - Jul 27 by itfcjoe |
There was a massive change between who was organising things in the Labour party between 2017 and 2019 - it's why the 2019 election was such a mess because Corbyn's team were going after people like Luciana Berger and Chukka Umunna with their election spending rather than targetting seats they actually needed tow in |
Yeah, whatever.
I can’t argue with what you choose to believe. | |
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| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 14:15 - Jul 27 with 2344 views | thebooks |
| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 13:46 - Jul 27 by itfcjoe |
There was a massive change between who was organising things in the Labour party between 2017 and 2019 - it's why the 2019 election was such a mess because Corbyn's team were going after people like Luciana Berger and Chukka Umunna with their election spending rather than targetting seats they actually needed tow in |
There was very little change between the elections in “who was organising everything”, although the strategy of going after seats such as Ian Duncan Smith’s over consolidating the 2017 gains was wrong.
If you’re trying to imply the 2017 performance was somehow despite Corbyn you’re simply wrong.
The 2019 defeat was due to lots of things, not least because of the Brexit strategy Starmer was responsible for. |  | | |
| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 14:44 - Jul 27 with 2312 views | itfcjoe |
| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 14:15 - Jul 27 by thebooks |
There was very little change between the elections in “who was organising everything”, although the strategy of going after seats such as Ian Duncan Smith’s over consolidating the 2017 gains was wrong.
If you’re trying to imply the 2017 performance was somehow despite Corbyn you’re simply wrong.
The 2019 defeat was due to lots of things, not least because of the Brexit strategy Starmer was responsible for. |
I don't think 2017 was in spite of Corbyn, in the same way i don't think 2019 was because of other factors.
He was responsible for the improved performance, and the subsequent total failure | |
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| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 15:01 - Jul 27 with 2289 views | Darth_Koont |
| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 14:44 - Jul 27 by itfcjoe |
I don't think 2017 was in spite of Corbyn, in the same way i don't think 2019 was because of other factors.
He was responsible for the improved performance, and the subsequent total failure |
2019 was as much as anything:
– Constant lies and misrepresentation in the press, often briefed by senior Labour MPs and officials
– Change UK being created when Corbyn was leading the polls
– An antisemitism “crisis” that was toweringly high on accusation, pitifully low on evidence
– People’s Vote lobby that looked hell-bent on bringing down Corbyn rather than making the best of a bad situation
Put all of that against an empty government just talking about “Get Brexit Done” and it’s pretty clear why Labour didn’t maintain the inroads of 2017 and returned more back to the performances of every other election after 1997.
I suspect it was only the more progressive platform and the younger voters that kept the vote as high as it was.
Now we’re back to the same situation as the past few decades of too many policyless, self-serving, status-quo careerists who won’t help anything or anyone that jeopardises their handout from a grateful establishment.
I hope they get destroyed just as much as the Tories, and we get ideas and actual policies that ensure people in the UK (especially children) have their basic physiological and psychological needs met before we waffle on about f@cking “opportunity”. | |
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| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 15:16 - Jul 27 with 2251 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 15:01 - Jul 27 by Darth_Koont |
2019 was as much as anything:
– Constant lies and misrepresentation in the press, often briefed by senior Labour MPs and officials
– Change UK being created when Corbyn was leading the polls
– An antisemitism “crisis” that was toweringly high on accusation, pitifully low on evidence
– People’s Vote lobby that looked hell-bent on bringing down Corbyn rather than making the best of a bad situation
Put all of that against an empty government just talking about “Get Brexit Done” and it’s pretty clear why Labour didn’t maintain the inroads of 2017 and returned more back to the performances of every other election after 1997.
I suspect it was only the more progressive platform and the younger voters that kept the vote as high as it was.
Now we’re back to the same situation as the past few decades of too many policyless, self-serving, status-quo careerists who won’t help anything or anyone that jeopardises their handout from a grateful establishment.
I hope they get destroyed just as much as the Tories, and we get ideas and actual policies that ensure people in the UK (especially children) have their basic physiological and psychological needs met before we waffle on about f@cking “opportunity”. |
Can’t be bothered to pickup on the rest but just to highlight one of the points where you’re massaging the truth as usual - Change UK were announced on 18th Feb 2019 - at which point the last few opinions polls had shown the Tories with leads of 5, 3, 5, 7 and 7 points, plus a couple of outliers tied [Post edited 27 Jul 2021 15:16]
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| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 15:29 - Jul 27 with 2222 views | Darth_Koont |
| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 15:16 - Jul 27 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
Can’t be bothered to pickup on the rest but just to highlight one of the points where you’re massaging the truth as usual - Change UK were announced on 18th Feb 2019 - at which point the last few opinions polls had shown the Tories with leads of 5, 3, 5, 7 and 7 points, plus a couple of outliers tied [Post edited 27 Jul 2021 15:16]
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That was when it was officially announced. Shuker himself admits that it was being discussed a year before. Why?
[Post edited 27 Jul 2021 15:30]
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| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 16:23 - Jul 27 with 2153 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 15:29 - Jul 27 by Darth_Koont |
That was when it was officially announced. Shuker himself admits that it was being discussed a year before. Why?
[Post edited 27 Jul 2021 15:30]
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‘Change UK formed when Corbyn was leading in the polls’
‘Ah no I didn’t actually mean formed, just an arbitrary made up date in the past’
The Tories led the polls for pretty much the whole of 2018 btw, and by a decent margin for most. Labour actually performed best in mid-2019 when May was on her way out, after Change UK had been formed | |
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| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 16:34 - Jul 27 with 2130 views | Darth_Koont |
| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 16:23 - Jul 27 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
‘Change UK formed when Corbyn was leading in the polls’
‘Ah no I didn’t actually mean formed, just an arbitrary made up date in the past’
The Tories led the polls for pretty much the whole of 2018 btw, and by a decent margin for most. Labour actually performed best in mid-2019 when May was on her way out, after Change UK had been formed |
I know what I said and meant. Shuker also says the “genesis” of Change UK was at the beginning of 2018. Why?
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/apr/19/a-year-on-did-change-uk-change-
Quite revealing that they all got bombed out of politics and pretty much all ended up as corporate lobbyists. But that’s exactly who we’re dealing with. | |
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| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 16:41 - Jul 27 with 2109 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
Nothing in that article suggests Change UK were formed at the start of 2018 though. The comments from Shuker say that he felt 2017 was a one-off and unlikely to be repeated and some MP’s had discussions around it - from which the initial hope was to change the direction of Labour, and failing that to consider other options
And he was proven to be emphatically right, too | |
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| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 16:47 - Jul 27 with 2089 views | Darth_Koont |
| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 16:41 - Jul 27 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
Nothing in that article suggests Change UK were formed at the start of 2018 though. The comments from Shuker say that he felt 2017 was a one-off and unlikely to be repeated and some MP’s had discussions around it - from which the initial hope was to change the direction of Labour, and failing that to consider other options
And he was proven to be emphatically right, too |
More than that quite clearly. And it was when Corbyn was leading or level in the polls.
But you stick to the important stuff ... jeez. | |
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| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 17:00 - Jul 27 with 2055 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 16:47 - Jul 27 by Darth_Koont |
More than that quite clearly. And it was when Corbyn was leading or level in the polls.
But you stick to the important stuff ... jeez. |
No, that’s just your spin. The article you posted literally states that the ‘early 2018’ meeting was between 3 disaffected MP’s and that the need for a plan b was secondary to changing the direction of Labour
But you stick to cherry picking bits to fit your narrative and avoiding everything that contradicts it | |
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| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 17:34 - Jul 27 with 2015 views | Darth_Koont |
| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 17:00 - Jul 27 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
No, that’s just your spin. The article you posted literally states that the ‘early 2018’ meeting was between 3 disaffected MP’s and that the need for a plan b was secondary to changing the direction of Labour
But you stick to cherry picking bits to fit your narrative and avoiding everything that contradicts it |
But we now agree on my narrative. After 2017 people were working harder against Corbyn at the top level of the party – despite his polling in the lead during that period.
That’s why Change UK was created even though it’s just the tip of the sh1tberg. | |
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| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 18:16 - Jul 27 with 1967 views | tractordownsouth |
| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 14:15 - Jul 27 by thebooks |
There was very little change between the elections in “who was organising everything”, although the strategy of going after seats such as Ian Duncan Smith’s over consolidating the 2017 gains was wrong.
If you’re trying to imply the 2017 performance was somehow despite Corbyn you’re simply wrong.
The 2019 defeat was due to lots of things, not least because of the Brexit strategy Starmer was responsible for. |
Of course Keir Starmer bears some responsibility for the Brexit policy that lost seats in the North but there are a few caveats to that idea. In Autumn 2019 the internal polls showed that things would have been even worse (160 seats or so) without the confirmatory referendum as the Lib Dems would have eaten into the Labour vote. Corbyn also could have gotten rid of him as Brexit secretary if he was so against the idea. And going back further, had Corbyn actually bothered to campaign for remain instead of sodding off on holiday and saying he supported the EU “7.5 out of 10”, there’s a chance the Labour voters in the North would’ve seen a strong Labour voice for remain and not voted out as a protest against Cameron. And then there would have been no Brexit at all.
The real mistake was Labour not voting for May’s deal. It would’ve allowed Labour to say it had respected the result whilst letting the Tories take the blame and sent the ERG into meltdown.
It was a catalogue of errors all round. |  |
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| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 18:28 - Jul 27 with 1955 views | Darth_Koont |
| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 18:16 - Jul 27 by tractordownsouth |
Of course Keir Starmer bears some responsibility for the Brexit policy that lost seats in the North but there are a few caveats to that idea. In Autumn 2019 the internal polls showed that things would have been even worse (160 seats or so) without the confirmatory referendum as the Lib Dems would have eaten into the Labour vote. Corbyn also could have gotten rid of him as Brexit secretary if he was so against the idea. And going back further, had Corbyn actually bothered to campaign for remain instead of sodding off on holiday and saying he supported the EU “7.5 out of 10”, there’s a chance the Labour voters in the North would’ve seen a strong Labour voice for remain and not voted out as a protest against Cameron. And then there would have been no Brexit at all.
The real mistake was Labour not voting for May’s deal. It would’ve allowed Labour to say it had respected the result whilst letting the Tories take the blame and sent the ERG into meltdown.
It was a catalogue of errors all round. |
I agree with you there that Brexit wasn’t handled well by the Remainers throughout. And by Labour considering they didn’t expressly need to be on one side or the other.
So I didn’t think that Starmer’s Brexit policy was that bad (and said so at the time) in that it gave a way out and the chance to be less black and white. But the irony is that the hardcore Remainers/People’s Vote pushed too hard for Labour to come out as Remain and the PLP and commentators had poisoned the well re: Corbyn’s own pretty nuanced position.
It was a clüsterfück within a cockup within a fiasco. | |
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| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 18:33 - Jul 27 with 1947 views | lowhouseblue |
| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 18:16 - Jul 27 by tractordownsouth |
Of course Keir Starmer bears some responsibility for the Brexit policy that lost seats in the North but there are a few caveats to that idea. In Autumn 2019 the internal polls showed that things would have been even worse (160 seats or so) without the confirmatory referendum as the Lib Dems would have eaten into the Labour vote. Corbyn also could have gotten rid of him as Brexit secretary if he was so against the idea. And going back further, had Corbyn actually bothered to campaign for remain instead of sodding off on holiday and saying he supported the EU “7.5 out of 10”, there’s a chance the Labour voters in the North would’ve seen a strong Labour voice for remain and not voted out as a protest against Cameron. And then there would have been no Brexit at all.
The real mistake was Labour not voting for May’s deal. It would’ve allowed Labour to say it had respected the result whilst letting the Tories take the blame and sent the ERG into meltdown.
It was a catalogue of errors all round. |
sorry - replied thinking you were someone else. apologies. [Post edited 27 Jul 2021 19:45]
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| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 18:35 - Jul 27 with 1937 views | Ryorry |
| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 15:01 - Jul 27 by Darth_Koont |
2019 was as much as anything:
– Constant lies and misrepresentation in the press, often briefed by senior Labour MPs and officials
– Change UK being created when Corbyn was leading the polls
– An antisemitism “crisis” that was toweringly high on accusation, pitifully low on evidence
– People’s Vote lobby that looked hell-bent on bringing down Corbyn rather than making the best of a bad situation
Put all of that against an empty government just talking about “Get Brexit Done” and it’s pretty clear why Labour didn’t maintain the inroads of 2017 and returned more back to the performances of every other election after 1997.
I suspect it was only the more progressive platform and the younger voters that kept the vote as high as it was.
Now we’re back to the same situation as the past few decades of too many policyless, self-serving, status-quo careerists who won’t help anything or anyone that jeopardises their handout from a grateful establishment.
I hope they get destroyed just as much as the Tories, and we get ideas and actual policies that ensure people in the UK (especially children) have their basic physiological and psychological needs met before we waffle on about f@cking “opportunity”. |
2019 was because millions of people (as reported by Labour's own agents & doorstep canvassers for that election) could see for themselves that Corbyn was a poor, weak leader who shilly-shallied on policy such as Brexit & blew with the wind of what he thought was the most popular, vote-winning opinion of the moment. They didn't need MSM smears of JC to see that, just to listen to the man himself in Parliament or making statements on TV. |  |
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| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 18:39 - Jul 27 with 1919 views | Darth_Koont |
| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 18:35 - Jul 27 by Ryorry |
2019 was because millions of people (as reported by Labour's own agents & doorstep canvassers for that election) could see for themselves that Corbyn was a poor, weak leader who shilly-shallied on policy such as Brexit & blew with the wind of what he thought was the most popular, vote-winning opinion of the moment. They didn't need MSM smears of JC to see that, just to listen to the man himself in Parliament or making statements on TV. |
See my previous post.
Yes, that’s certainly what everyone with a column and/or an axe to grind was saying.
I remember having discussions with people on here who were clearly so coloured by that narrative that they said they just couldn’t understand (Starmer’s) Labour second referendum position. | |
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| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 18:44 - Jul 27 with 1906 views | Ryorry |
| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 18:39 - Jul 27 by Darth_Koont |
See my previous post.
Yes, that’s certainly what everyone with a column and/or an axe to grind was saying.
I remember having discussions with people on here who were clearly so coloured by that narrative that they said they just couldn’t understand (Starmer’s) Labour second referendum position. |
"Yes, that’s certainly what everyone with a column and/or an axe to grind was saying."
No, it's what former Labour voters were saying on their doorsteps to Labour canvassers. As reported by those Labour canvassers themselves, directly, without intervention. "Jeremy Corbyn is the issue, former Labour voters don't like/want him"
And the words you could see and hear coming from Corbyn's mouth directly, without any intervention by newspapers, media or anyone else. [Post edited 27 Jul 2021 18:47]
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| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 18:48 - Jul 27 with 1897 views | Darth_Koont |
| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 18:44 - Jul 27 by Ryorry |
"Yes, that’s certainly what everyone with a column and/or an axe to grind was saying."
No, it's what former Labour voters were saying on their doorsteps to Labour canvassers. As reported by those Labour canvassers themselves, directly, without intervention. "Jeremy Corbyn is the issue, former Labour voters don't like/want him"
And the words you could see and hear coming from Corbyn's mouth directly, without any intervention by newspapers, media or anyone else. [Post edited 27 Jul 2021 18:47]
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As I said, it became the accepted narrative.
Which leaders are we comparing him with anyway? Johnson and Starmer talk out of both sides depending on who’s asking the question so the media treatment and portrayal of Corbyn seemed way OTT. Especially as the rest of the time they were calling him rigid and inflexible and not having shifted his politics in decades. | |
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| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 19:00 - Jul 27 with 1869 views | Ryorry |
| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 18:48 - Jul 27 by Darth_Koont |
As I said, it became the accepted narrative.
Which leaders are we comparing him with anyway? Johnson and Starmer talk out of both sides depending on who’s asking the question so the media treatment and portrayal of Corbyn seemed way OTT. Especially as the rest of the time they were calling him rigid and inflexible and not having shifted his politics in decades. |
I for one accept the "narrative" of what Labour agents and Labour canvassers were themselves directly reporting, even if you don't.
One thing I've changed position on is that I do now feel Starmer needs to up his game & become much stronger, more attack-minded & passionate. | |
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| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 19:12 - Jul 27 with 1842 views | Darth_Koont |
| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 19:00 - Jul 27 by Ryorry |
I for one accept the "narrative" of what Labour agents and Labour canvassers were themselves directly reporting, even if you don't.
One thing I've changed position on is that I do now feel Starmer needs to up his game & become much stronger, more attack-minded & passionate. |
I also recognise people saying that. I recognised when you said it here: “Corbyn was a poor, weak leader who shilly-shallied on policy such as Brexit & blew with the wind of what he thought was the most popular, vote-winning opinion of the moment.”
But I think that’s just the narrative unless you can show me an example of that. Brexit was being fought over within Labour by MPs of Leave-voting constituencies and those in Remain-voting constituencies. The end-position was a compromise that could give Labour and the country a way out. This wasn’t Corbyn changing his mind on Brexit.
As for Starmer, he and/or the team around him might be the worst people in opposition at the worst time. They’ve been outflanked at every step by everyone because they just don’t appear to have any principles or ideas. The only thing they are good at is consolidating power within the party and purging. These lot would appear to welcome a Tory government as long as they can suckle at the left teat of the Establishment. And to be fair we should have seen that coming when that’s all they’ve been doing for the past 5+ years. | |
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| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 19:16 - Jul 27 with 1833 views | Swansea_Blue |
| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 19:00 - Jul 27 by Ryorry |
I for one accept the "narrative" of what Labour agents and Labour canvassers were themselves directly reporting, even if you don't.
One thing I've changed position on is that I do now feel Starmer needs to up his game & become much stronger, more attack-minded & passionate. |
Possibly there was a distinction between different types of Labour voters which could explain some of the doorstep findings? From those I know who had first hand experience of attending rallies and hearing Corbyn speak, they were in the main very convinced by what they were hearing. Former voters just going off media coverage would get a very different experience as there’s no doubt the media coverage was largely negative, even from papers that were supposed to be on his side. Dunno, just guessing.
Not that that would explain the swing between 2017 and 2019. The simplicity of Johnson’s Brexit message (even if based on lies) seemed the decisive factor in the end. |  |
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| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 19:23 - Jul 27 with 1815 views | Bugs |
People look back at the last labour government with rose tinted glasses due to how sh!te the governments that have followed were/are. But so many times the last labour government out Toried the Torys.
Just read though this thread.
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