| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here 20:18 - Jul 25 with 5992 views | Darth_Koont |
It highlights the same problem with the current Blairite tribute act – they’re clueless and detached from the real world.
And that’s without even going into the disastrous semi-crusade that masqueraded as foreign policy. We need better from a supposed opposition. |  |
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| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 19:30 - Jul 27 with 1025 views | Darth_Koont |
| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 19:16 - Jul 27 by Swansea_Blue |
Possibly there was a distinction between different types of Labour voters which could explain some of the doorstep findings? From those I know who had first hand experience of attending rallies and hearing Corbyn speak, they were in the main very convinced by what they were hearing. Former voters just going off media coverage would get a very different experience as there’s no doubt the media coverage was largely negative, even from papers that were supposed to be on his side. Dunno, just guessing.
Not that that would explain the swing between 2017 and 2019. The simplicity of Johnson’s Brexit message (even if based on lies) seemed the decisive factor in the end. |
The research on the media coverage of Corbyn was pretty depressing if you believe the press should have some objective, democratic function.
You’re going to expect it from the right-wing billionaire press but even the Guardian and the BBC were notable for their use of opinion, quotes from anonymous sources and repetition of accusations without any attempt to confirm or counter it with evidence.
In the slipping of public and democratic standards, we get what we deserve with a media like ours. | |
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| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 19:31 - Jul 27 with 1025 views | Ryorry |
| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 19:16 - Jul 27 by Swansea_Blue |
Possibly there was a distinction between different types of Labour voters which could explain some of the doorstep findings? From those I know who had first hand experience of attending rallies and hearing Corbyn speak, they were in the main very convinced by what they were hearing. Former voters just going off media coverage would get a very different experience as there’s no doubt the media coverage was largely negative, even from papers that were supposed to be on his side. Dunno, just guessing.
Not that that would explain the swing between 2017 and 2019. The simplicity of Johnson’s Brexit message (even if based on lies) seemed the decisive factor in the end. |
I don't know the breakdown of who went to rallies, suspect that was mostly Momentum members?
I'm talking about ordinary householders, probably the majority of whom weren't even party members, just traditional (and no longer young) Labour voters.
Personally, I never went by any media coverage either - just listened to & watched the words & body language of Corbyn himself.
Edit: forgot to say that yes, simple, repetitive soundbites do work. Sadly. [Post edited 27 Jul 2021 19:40]
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| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 19:52 - Jul 27 with 999 views | Darth_Koont |
| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 19:23 - Jul 27 by Bugs |
People look back at the last labour government with rose tinted glasses due to how sh!te the governments that have followed were/are. But so many times the last labour government out Toried the Torys.
Just read though this thread.
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Thanks for that – an important thread. New Labour embedded so much of what we now see as wrong (but only if a Tory does it).
Apart from the nasty little policies and statements there, and an awful, murderous foreign policy of course, they also bear a lot of responsibility for the underlying socio-economic issues affecting all of us.
Here’s Jon Trickett talking about underlying issues that have been ignored or actively made worse by the Tories. He says “more than a decade” and slightly pulls his punch there – because all of these areas became worse under New Labour and the direction of travel from the 80s and 90s they kept us on. All these problems are the natural result but who cares if it’s not us that have to pay, right?
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| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 20:16 - Jul 27 with 988 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 17:34 - Jul 27 by Darth_Koont |
But we now agree on my narrative. After 2017 people were working harder against Corbyn at the top level of the party – despite his polling in the lead during that period.
That’s why Change UK was created even though it’s just the tip of the sh1tberg. |
No I don’t agree actually, that’s just your spin again
Parts of the party could see where Labour were headed from the get go - indeed one of the 3 in that meeting says they thought that in 2015 (another point you conveniently ignore) at which point the Tories had a vast lead. They knew a Corbyn-led Labour was destined to be destroyed, that losing the 2017 election was not a success and that the usual post-election opposition polling boost would be short lived and was already eroding. Meanwhile some factions continued to fawn over Corbyn even as that proved to be the case and the Tories took a decisive lead - in fact some supporters remained convinced even in December 2019 that the election would yield a positive result
And despite the catastrophic failure since 2019, there remains a faction desperate to point figures absolutely anywhere but the leader, and Labour under the impression that more of the same will yield a different result. Factions which continue to undermine Labour now and actively cheer for the party to lose votes. Sound familiar? Of course, you yourself weren’t sticking the boot into Starmer at any opportunity when Labour were polling well against the Tories, were you?
The level of delusion would be hilarious if it didn’t have such serious repercussions for the country |  |
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| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 20:35 - Jul 27 with 968 views | Darth_Koont |
| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 20:16 - Jul 27 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
No I don’t agree actually, that’s just your spin again
Parts of the party could see where Labour were headed from the get go - indeed one of the 3 in that meeting says they thought that in 2015 (another point you conveniently ignore) at which point the Tories had a vast lead. They knew a Corbyn-led Labour was destined to be destroyed, that losing the 2017 election was not a success and that the usual post-election opposition polling boost would be short lived and was already eroding. Meanwhile some factions continued to fawn over Corbyn even as that proved to be the case and the Tories took a decisive lead - in fact some supporters remained convinced even in December 2019 that the election would yield a positive result
And despite the catastrophic failure since 2019, there remains a faction desperate to point figures absolutely anywhere but the leader, and Labour under the impression that more of the same will yield a different result. Factions which continue to undermine Labour now and actively cheer for the party to lose votes. Sound familiar? Of course, you yourself weren’t sticking the boot into Starmer at any opportunity when Labour were polling well against the Tories, were you?
The level of delusion would be hilarious if it didn’t have such serious repercussions for the country |
Nonsense.
You know what has actually had serious repercussions for the country and will continue to do so?
Inadequate policies and lazy party political thinking.
We’ve got 4+ million kids living in poverty, just for example, and I’m hearing nothing of substance from the supposed serious and democratically elected politicians, from our media or blinkered gatekeepers like yourself.
It’s just not good enough (or remotely fair on those we should be looking after) and I refuse to accept that status quo. You shouldn’t either – none of us should. | |
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| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 20:41 - Jul 27 with 949 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 20:35 - Jul 27 by Darth_Koont |
Nonsense.
You know what has actually had serious repercussions for the country and will continue to do so?
Inadequate policies and lazy party political thinking.
We’ve got 4+ million kids living in poverty, just for example, and I’m hearing nothing of substance from the supposed serious and democratically elected politicians, from our media or blinkered gatekeepers like yourself.
It’s just not good enough (or remotely fair on those we should be looking after) and I refuse to accept that status quo. You shouldn’t either – none of us should. |
We have 4 million children in poverty as we’ve had a Tory government for a decade+. That figure was much lower, and reduced, under the last Labour government, as you well know
I notice you conveniently ignored the bit about undermining Starmer when performing well in the polls. Funny that | |
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| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 20:46 - Jul 27 with 938 views | Darth_Koont |
| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 20:41 - Jul 27 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
We have 4 million children in poverty as we’ve had a Tory government for a decade+. That figure was much lower, and reduced, under the last Labour government, as you well know
I notice you conveniently ignored the bit about undermining Starmer when performing well in the polls. Funny that |
I ignore most of what you say to be honest. 😀
I’m pretty consistent at “undermining” Starmer wherever he is in the polls. He’s a massive disappointment and basically lied about what he stood for in the leadership election. | |
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| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 10:33 - Jul 28 with 851 views | tractordownsouth |
Bloody Tories!
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| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 10:40 - Jul 28 with 828 views | Darth_Koont |
| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 10:33 - Jul 28 by tractordownsouth |
Bloody Tories!
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Good stuff! More of this and less of the rejection of a corporation tax rise nonsense, please.
Commit to investment and addressing structural issues and they might even qualify as vaguely social democratic.
Policy vs. Posturing. | |
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| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 10:48 - Jul 28 with 804 views | leitrimblue |
| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 10:43 - Jul 27 by itfcjoe |
"What did the Romans ever do for us?" |
Very little in reality. A few improvements to the infrastructure while destroying a far superior, thousands of years in the making culture |  | | |
| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 18:45 - Jul 28 with 731 views | reusersfreekicks |
| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 20:41 - Jul 27 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
We have 4 million children in poverty as we’ve had a Tory government for a decade+. That figure was much lower, and reduced, under the last Labour government, as you well know
I notice you conveniently ignored the bit about undermining Starmer when performing well in the polls. Funny that |
4 million? I find that fugure to be unbelievable. On what criteria? Relative poverty i presume. Must be about 1 in every 3 children? |  | | |
| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 12:51 - Jul 29 with 650 views | Ryorry |
| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 20:46 - Jul 27 by Darth_Koont |
I ignore most of what you say to be honest. 😀
I’m pretty consistent at “undermining” Starmer wherever he is in the polls. He’s a massive disappointment and basically lied about what he stood for in the leadership election. |
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| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 13:06 - Jul 29 with 628 views | Darth_Koont |
| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 12:51 - Jul 29 by Ryorry |
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Sure. It’s the old chicken and egg re: getting elected.
But it’s not like supporting a football team – it’s about wanting proper policies to help the country. And here Labour and the Tories look on a par. And FWIW, I’m pretty sure if others demanded policies and solutions from our politicians rather than simplistic “Better than the Tories” platitudes then we wouldn’t be in this position.
I won’t vote for either of them on current form. I want to see the Greens be a lobbying force neither can ignore and I want Scotland leaving the Union. As the answer for Scotland but also to shake the UK establishment out of its self-serving, terminal navel-gazing. | |
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| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 13:37 - Jul 29 with 590 views | Ryorry |
| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 13:06 - Jul 29 by Darth_Koont |
Sure. It’s the old chicken and egg re: getting elected.
But it’s not like supporting a football team – it’s about wanting proper policies to help the country. And here Labour and the Tories look on a par. And FWIW, I’m pretty sure if others demanded policies and solutions from our politicians rather than simplistic “Better than the Tories” platitudes then we wouldn’t be in this position.
I won’t vote for either of them on current form. I want to see the Greens be a lobbying force neither can ignore and I want Scotland leaving the Union. As the answer for Scotland but also to shake the UK establishment out of its self-serving, terminal navel-gazing. |
So sad your (and your fellow ivory tower purists) idealism & complete lack of pragmatism/inability and/or unwillingness to grasp reality, means that you're enabling the toxic tories to carry on unabated. | |
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| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 13:51 - Jul 29 with 565 views | chicoazul |
| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 13:37 - Jul 29 by Ryorry |
So sad your (and your fellow ivory tower purists) idealism & complete lack of pragmatism/inability and/or unwillingness to grasp reality, means that you're enabling the toxic tories to carry on unabated. |
This implies Labour would do anything at all different from the Tories. Since the Tories just nick Labours best policies I doubt it very much. Like Koont or not, what he is saying is he wants a left wing party who are different from the Tories not the same. Although hopefully he is going to get it in Scotland in a couple of years and we can see how that goes. |  |
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| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 13:53 - Jul 29 with 558 views | Darth_Koont |
| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 13:37 - Jul 29 by Ryorry |
So sad your (and your fellow ivory tower purists) idealism & complete lack of pragmatism/inability and/or unwillingness to grasp reality, means that you're enabling the toxic tories to carry on unabated. |
I think it’s even sadder you can’t realise how little clear water there is between the two options currently. Or that the only time in recent years when Labour made inroads was through a progressive platform.
So I actually think my approach will be more productive electorally anyway.
The sooner Labour crashes, burns and gets real – either on their own or as a party that realises they need a progressive alliance with the Greens and SNP – the better for everyone. Except Johnson and the Tories. | |
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| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 13:54 - Jul 29 with 553 views | DanTheMan |
| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 13:51 - Jul 29 by chicoazul |
This implies Labour would do anything at all different from the Tories. Since the Tories just nick Labours best policies I doubt it very much. Like Koont or not, what he is saying is he wants a left wing party who are different from the Tories not the same. Although hopefully he is going to get it in Scotland in a couple of years and we can see how that goes. |
It pains me to say but I think the real "missing" party in this country is a (somewhat) socially conservative party with left wing economic policies. |  |
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| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 14:08 - Jul 29 with 528 views | chicoazul |
| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 13:54 - Jul 29 by DanTheMan |
It pains me to say but I think the real "missing" party in this country is a (somewhat) socially conservative party with left wing economic policies. |
Another example here of how slowly but surely the cleverer TWTDers are getting on board with the chicoazul party. | |
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| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 14:09 - Jul 29 with 525 views | Darth_Koont |
| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 13:54 - Jul 29 by DanTheMan |
It pains me to say but I think the real "missing" party in this country is a (somewhat) socially conservative party with left wing economic policies. |
Actually, I think what’s missing is a party that will represent the largely forgotten generations under 40.
That’ll be socially liberal and with the left-wing economics needed to halt everything sliding towards the interests of older house-owners. Current Labour are moving to the right on both. | |
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| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 14:22 - Jul 29 with 498 views | Clapham_Junction |
| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 13:54 - Jul 29 by DanTheMan |
It pains me to say but I think the real "missing" party in this country is a (somewhat) socially conservative party with left wing economic policies. |
Rod Liddle's SDP? |  | | |
| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 14:45 - Jul 29 with 468 views | Ryorry |
| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 13:53 - Jul 29 by Darth_Koont |
I think it’s even sadder you can’t realise how little clear water there is between the two options currently. Or that the only time in recent years when Labour made inroads was through a progressive platform.
So I actually think my approach will be more productive electorally anyway.
The sooner Labour crashes, burns and gets real – either on their own or as a party that realises they need a progressive alliance with the Greens and SNP – the better for everyone. Except Johnson and the Tories. |
I've said numerous times, incl on here, that as the Labour Party was born out of conditions over 100 years ago, and the world has obviously moved on bigtime since then, the LP needs a big re-set now, it's no longer fit for purpose.
There've been a lot of calls on Twitter over the past few days for a Lab-Lib-Green Alliance to fight the next GE, & they're getting plenty of support. Probably our best bet if it can be made to happen. #GTTO. | |
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| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 14:52 - Jul 29 with 459 views | Darth_Koont |
| A great skewering of New Labour (and New New Labour) here on 14:45 - Jul 29 by Ryorry |
I've said numerous times, incl on here, that as the Labour Party was born out of conditions over 100 years ago, and the world has obviously moved on bigtime since then, the LP needs a big re-set now, it's no longer fit for purpose.
There've been a lot of calls on Twitter over the past few days for a Lab-Lib-Green Alliance to fight the next GE, & they're getting plenty of support. Probably our best bet if it can be made to happen. #GTTO. |
Neither the Tories nor Labour have moved with the times. Both are stuck in a view of capital, power and influence that doesn’t reflect and can’t respond to the modern world.
It’s not top-down anymore. A strong, healthy economy is dependent on a strong, healthy society and we’ve let ours get hideously divided and unbalanced. | |
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