| Read this, get comfortable with it, accept it 10:25 - Sep 13 with 6110 views | TooManyCooks |
drastically change your expectations, because you cannot expedite this model without a leader.
https://www.thecoachingtoolscompany.com/get-your-team-performing-beautifully-wit
Read the article, read it again, there are a number of these on the web, but this is the most simplified and easy to grasp that I have seen and applies to any team setting.
The truth is that we are likely only a little way down that nasty first curve. We have literally only just confirmed our squad, let alone starting 11, we still have injuries, or those just returning from it that haven't played a competitive game yet! We have weekly debutants and our leader and captain hasn't even taken to the pitch yet, a lot rides on Morsy, as does the cracking signing of Celina, 2 nailed on starters when available.
Every week we have brand new partnerships taking to the field for the first time and that is going to continue for weeks to come, we still don't know our best 11, some call it "gelling", whatever you want to call it, the team is still forming, you should not and can not expect results in this period, if we pick up a win then great, personally I'm happy we've managed to get some draws and fully expected us to be beaten most weeks and expect that to continue for several weeks. The beauty of this league, is that a handful of results can push you a dozen places plus up the table, it's a bizarre league as we've seen and experienced first hand, so we really don't need to panic. Of course we'd like to see the team in top 2 this season, or in the playoffs, but the reality is that we are a new club and squad and that takes time to work, that's life I'm afraid.
Not winning a game currently doesn't mean Paul Cook isn't a good manager, he simply cannot expedite the team process without a leader on the pitch and NO, that doesn't mean that the minute Morsy steps on the pitch we are going to win, what it means is that the "forming" process can be expedited more quickly and we change our position on the curve. What you should be focussing on, is the undeniable talent the club has brought in, some of the signings we have made are well beyond what should be possible at a League 1 club, hats off to Ashton and hats off to Cook for identifying them. Look at the structure that has been put in place at the club, we are a professional outfit again from top to bottom, all the things we've bemoaned for 13 years have/are being sorted, it's a time for celebration, not calling for our managers head.
We've suffered 13 god awful years, you MUST be patient now and allow this squad to go through the curve to success, it will come, it really will, the ingredients are all here, it is literally just time that is needed now, a commodity that is in painfully short supply in the world of football. I am prepared to give the new regime the time it needs to succeed, the question is, are you? If not, why? Perhaps you need to adjust your expectations.......
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| Read this, get comfortable with it, accept it on 12:34 - Sep 13 with 1720 views | Radlett_blue |
| Read this, get comfortable with it, accept it on 12:12 - Sep 13 by TooManyCooks |
I am applying the theory to a football team and the realities of how the curve affects them in their industry.
The theory applies equally to a Sunday morning league team.
The process of developing off field relationships will occur during the week at training and is a part of the process, but the players will truly understand each others working style in competitive match play scenarios, which you cannot replicate in training sessions. |
The almost mythical thing called "team spirit" usually seems to go hand in hand with winning football matches. Quite hard to say which engenders the other. |  |
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| Read this, get comfortable with it, accept it on 12:41 - Sep 13 with 1702 views | TooManyCooks |
| Read this, get comfortable with it, accept it on 12:33 - Sep 13 by Herbivore |
The first bit is what you think you are doing, I'm not sure you really understand the theory all that well. You've spent the thread going beyond what the theory explains, misapplying it, and twisting it to suit your chosen narrative. That's not how one should apply theory. |
I have tried to apply the theory the best way I can to a football team, which of course is not a regular 9 to 5 job, others may apply it differently if they interpret things differently, that's fine and normal, to each their own, I assure you I have no underlying agenda here, I just thought it might help people understand why we are not achieving the expected levels of performance currently. | |
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| Read this, get comfortable with it, accept it on 12:41 - Sep 13 with 1697 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Read this, get comfortable with it, accept it on 12:19 - Sep 13 by Funge |
What a load of b0llocks. |
Sort and to the point but correct.
Cook has previously indicated he wanted leaders all over the pitch, players with character. There was no sign of it, second half, on Saturday. Heads down, no eye contact etc.
Would be surprised if Cook isn’t feeling the heat after all he has openly admitted that the game was one of his worst days in management.
He has players of the quality he asked for; he has a coaching staff of his choosing; he knows it is all down to him and he must know deep down that currently he is failing. |  |
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| Read this, get comfortable with it, accept it on 12:43 - Sep 13 with 1691 views | hype313 |
| Read this, get comfortable with it, accept it on 12:41 - Sep 13 by TooManyCooks |
I have tried to apply the theory the best way I can to a football team, which of course is not a regular 9 to 5 job, others may apply it differently if they interpret things differently, that's fine and normal, to each their own, I assure you I have no underlying agenda here, I just thought it might help people understand why we are not achieving the expected levels of performance currently. |
Personally, whilst there's credence to your OP, in this current circumstance we have a situation where we are struggling to do the basics, defending has been abysmal, and sometimes we can all over analyze things when things are going awry, essentially a good old fashioned boot into Row Z is what it needs. |  |
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| Read this, get comfortable with it, accept it on 12:52 - Sep 13 with 1676 views | saffers12 |
Tuckman was based around the Business world
Not sure it fully relates |  | | |
| Read this, get comfortable with it, accept it on 12:54 - Sep 13 with 1672 views | Herbivore |
| Read this, get comfortable with it, accept it on 12:41 - Sep 13 by TooManyCooks |
I have tried to apply the theory the best way I can to a football team, which of course is not a regular 9 to 5 job, others may apply it differently if they interpret things differently, that's fine and normal, to each their own, I assure you I have no underlying agenda here, I just thought it might help people understand why we are not achieving the expected levels of performance currently. |
For it to help to explain our poor performance you'd need to be using the theory correctly, and I'd say that you're not doing so.
There are then further questions about how useful the theory is in any case, which will again impact on how well it explains our situation. It's not a theory that was developed in the context of elite sport and as you rightly point out elite sport is not the same as a regular 9-5 job. In fact in football you tend to see very high levels of turnover of staff and leaders in comparison to many other sectors. In elite sport there is already a clear goal, the team doesn't need to negotiate this. So is it actually applicable to us at all? And if it is, is it the best theory to apply?
I'm sure you'll be aware that there is a lot of critique of Tuckman's work. For a start, his theory has a limited empirical basis and a lot of empirical work since refutes the idea that teams go through this sequential process in the way Tuckman describes. So actually, is it a helpful theory to apply to any team, let alone an elite sports team far removed from the context that the theory was initially derived from?
I think Funge probably put this more succinctly than me, but I really don't feel that your OP and follow up posts warrant the credibility that you perhaps feel they deserve. |  |
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| Read this, get comfortable with it, accept it on 12:58 - Sep 13 with 1651 views | TooManyCooks |
| Read this, get comfortable with it, accept it on 12:43 - Sep 13 by hype313 |
Personally, whilst there's credence to your OP, in this current circumstance we have a situation where we are struggling to do the basics, defending has been abysmal, and sometimes we can all over analyze things when things are going awry, essentially a good old fashioned boot into Row Z is what it needs. |
I agree and believe me I am no different to anybody else, if I had a swear jar, the recipient would be a millionaire by now, it's grotesquely frustrating watching so far, but I console myself that it will come good in time.
If you are a glass half full type of individual, then we can be very happy with our play going forward, we create chances, we score and it's entertaining to watch, which is a complete 180 on where we had been previously, the unfortunate part is that the defence has also done a 180, sadly. Though, it isn't that surprising as the defence has clearly been the most unsettled part of our squad by far in terms of lateness of signings, it hasn't helped that our most expensive signing to date (Edmundson) arrived injured and played his first game Saturday, no doubt woefully lacking in match fitness etc etc
I'm staying positive, I truly think it will come, but it won't happen straight away, over the coming weeks we will have several more new starting teams with Morsy, Celina et al, so I think we probably should focus on the positives of our play and hope that the bits that haven't formed yet do so quickly, that's what I'm going to do anyway, I'm going to trust the curve and the powers that be and I think we will be a formidable force as the season progresses if we can just be a little more patient with the club and keep supporting them. | |
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| Read this, get comfortable with it, accept it on 13:02 - Sep 13 with 1646 views | Herbivore |
| Read this, get comfortable with it, accept it on 12:58 - Sep 13 by TooManyCooks |
I agree and believe me I am no different to anybody else, if I had a swear jar, the recipient would be a millionaire by now, it's grotesquely frustrating watching so far, but I console myself that it will come good in time.
If you are a glass half full type of individual, then we can be very happy with our play going forward, we create chances, we score and it's entertaining to watch, which is a complete 180 on where we had been previously, the unfortunate part is that the defence has also done a 180, sadly. Though, it isn't that surprising as the defence has clearly been the most unsettled part of our squad by far in terms of lateness of signings, it hasn't helped that our most expensive signing to date (Edmundson) arrived injured and played his first game Saturday, no doubt woefully lacking in match fitness etc etc
I'm staying positive, I truly think it will come, but it won't happen straight away, over the coming weeks we will have several more new starting teams with Morsy, Celina et al, so I think we probably should focus on the positives of our play and hope that the bits that haven't formed yet do so quickly, that's what I'm going to do anyway, I'm going to trust the curve and the powers that be and I think we will be a formidable force as the season progresses if we can just be a little more patient with the club and keep supporting them. |
This will blow your mind, but Cook didn't have to select Edmundson on Saturday if he was so lacking in readiness to play. | |
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| Read this, get comfortable with it, accept it on 13:03 - Sep 13 with 1640 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| Read this, get comfortable with it, accept it on 12:41 - Sep 13 by Pinewoodblue |
Sort and to the point but correct.
Cook has previously indicated he wanted leaders all over the pitch, players with character. There was no sign of it, second half, on Saturday. Heads down, no eye contact etc.
Would be surprised if Cook isn’t feeling the heat after all he has openly admitted that the game was one of his worst days in management.
He has players of the quality he asked for; he has a coaching staff of his choosing; he knows it is all down to him and he must know deep down that currently he is failing. |
The last thing ITFC needs now is leaders all over the pitch...it needs one leader who can organise the midfield and defence....if Cook thinks that guy was going to be Morsy but it just took ages to get him on board, hence why he didn't name a specific player as captain, then things should improve - but if Cook still wants leaders all over the pitch and Morsy's just thrown into the mix, I can't see things getting better very quickly... |  |
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| Read this, get comfortable with it, accept it on 13:11 - Sep 13 with 1619 views | TooManyCooks |
| Read this, get comfortable with it, accept it on 12:54 - Sep 13 by Herbivore |
For it to help to explain our poor performance you'd need to be using the theory correctly, and I'd say that you're not doing so.
There are then further questions about how useful the theory is in any case, which will again impact on how well it explains our situation. It's not a theory that was developed in the context of elite sport and as you rightly point out elite sport is not the same as a regular 9-5 job. In fact in football you tend to see very high levels of turnover of staff and leaders in comparison to many other sectors. In elite sport there is already a clear goal, the team doesn't need to negotiate this. So is it actually applicable to us at all? And if it is, is it the best theory to apply?
I'm sure you'll be aware that there is a lot of critique of Tuckman's work. For a start, his theory has a limited empirical basis and a lot of empirical work since refutes the idea that teams go through this sequential process in the way Tuckman describes. So actually, is it a helpful theory to apply to any team, let alone an elite sports team far removed from the context that the theory was initially derived from?
I think Funge probably put this more succinctly than me, but I really don't feel that your OP and follow up posts warrant the credibility that you perhaps feel they deserve. |
You are entitled to your opinion.
The theory can be applied to any and all industries, because it is a psychology based theory. Playing for ITFC is the players 9 to 5 job and they go through the same things we all do in the workplace, the setting may be different, but football is a business, our club is a business and our players are contracted to that business and affected in the same way as employees in any other business.
Of course you could argue that the curve won't necessarily unfold as predicted and that would be fair to say, the only evidence will be in performances over time and of course those will be affected by changes to the team, players leaving and new signings etc will affect the curve. However, if we accept what we are told, that the squad is what PC wanted and he will work them to success without further additions, then currently at least, we should assume that the variables will be limited and we have a better chance of progressing through the curve. The curve is certainly not a prediction of the future, but it's a linear model on what should happen under a certain set of circumstances and given the way we have recruited, we have a chance of seeing that curve to fruition. | |
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| Read this, get comfortable with it, accept it on 13:14 - Sep 13 with 1603 views | Herbivore |
| Read this, get comfortable with it, accept it on 13:11 - Sep 13 by TooManyCooks |
You are entitled to your opinion.
The theory can be applied to any and all industries, because it is a psychology based theory. Playing for ITFC is the players 9 to 5 job and they go through the same things we all do in the workplace, the setting may be different, but football is a business, our club is a business and our players are contracted to that business and affected in the same way as employees in any other business.
Of course you could argue that the curve won't necessarily unfold as predicted and that would be fair to say, the only evidence will be in performances over time and of course those will be affected by changes to the team, players leaving and new signings etc will affect the curve. However, if we accept what we are told, that the squad is what PC wanted and he will work them to success without further additions, then currently at least, we should assume that the variables will be limited and we have a better chance of progressing through the curve. The curve is certainly not a prediction of the future, but it's a linear model on what should happen under a certain set of circumstances and given the way we have recruited, we have a chance of seeing that curve to fruition. |
You've ignored most of what I've said and have done a 180 on whether or not football is indeed a regular 9-5 job. Excellent work. | |
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| Read this, get comfortable with it, accept it on 13:17 - Sep 13 with 1594 views | TooManyCooks |
| Read this, get comfortable with it, accept it on 13:03 - Sep 13 by Ewan_Oozami |
The last thing ITFC needs now is leaders all over the pitch...it needs one leader who can organise the midfield and defence....if Cook thinks that guy was going to be Morsy but it just took ages to get him on board, hence why he didn't name a specific player as captain, then things should improve - but if Cook still wants leaders all over the pitch and Morsy's just thrown into the mix, I can't see things getting better very quickly... |
Indeed, we need 1 leader and Morsy was identified as that man.
When Cook refers to leaders all over the pitch, I suspect he would be better describing them as players with the right character all over the pitch. We have recruited on the basis that the players coming in buy-in to our plan and the club and have a certain character, a willingness to roll up their sleeves and do the dirty work, which hopefully will unite them as a team in the weeks to come. | |
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| Read this, get comfortable with it, accept it on 13:27 - Sep 13 with 1584 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Read this, get comfortable with it, accept it on 13:17 - Sep 13 by TooManyCooks |
Indeed, we need 1 leader and Morsy was identified as that man.
When Cook refers to leaders all over the pitch, I suspect he would be better describing them as players with the right character all over the pitch. We have recruited on the basis that the players coming in buy-in to our plan and the club and have a certain character, a willingness to roll up their sleeves and do the dirty work, which hopefully will unite them as a team in the weeks to come. |
While it is OK to defend your position it does look as if by doing so TooManyCooks is in danger of spoiling his own broth.
It worth remembering that having an opinion doesn’t mean you are necessarily right. | |
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| Read this, get comfortable with it, accept it on 13:28 - Sep 13 with 1579 views | TooManyCooks |
| Read this, get comfortable with it, accept it on 13:14 - Sep 13 by Herbivore |
You've ignored most of what I've said and have done a 180 on whether or not football is indeed a regular 9-5 job. Excellent work. |
I didn't ignore what you said, I answered your questions on the theory and highlighted exactly why it's perfectly suitable to be applied to a sporting business IMO.
I have not done a 180, I suggested that football isn't a regular 9 to 5 to you or me, which it isn't, but further highlighted that as far as the players are concerned, it is absolutely their 9 to 5 job. That is in no way conflicting anything I've said previously.
I'm trying to provide some light at the end of the tunnel to those trying to understand our current performance levels and whether we could expect to see our fortunes change. As stated numerous times, you are entitled to your opinion, as others are theirs. This is my take on what we are experiencing as a club, you may think differently, which is fine. | |
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| Read this, get comfortable with it, accept it on 13:30 - Sep 13 with 1570 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Read this, get comfortable with it, accept it on 11:10 - Sep 13 by TooManyCooks |
The model is a psychological one and applies to any group/team setting and is just as relevant in football as it is in any other industry, the sum of a team is greater than its parts, if you have a leader and a group that understand the goals of the group (excuse the pun) and are all pushing in the same direction, results will come.
I think most people agree that we have made some unbelievable signings and have a team capable of walking this league, but are frustrated at the performances, hence the view that something is broken. It is my belief that we are simply undergoing a common process to any team environment, amplified by the vast changes to club and squad and the fact that our leader has yet to take to the pitch, we just need more time. |
Although in a non-sporting setting the success rate is naturally limited by the number of positions available for promotion, whilst variables outside of a teams control can completely derail efforts (e.g. take Liverpool's drastic drop off in form last season due to a run of injuries).
As others have said, the key leader is the manager. If he's no good, no amount of leaders on the pitch will help. A leader on the pitch can certainly can help, although again it's no guarantee - we've had Chambo & Skuse around the place for years, all hailed as leaders by those who worked with them, but that wasn't the magic bullet.
At the moment it's also an assumption about signings. At the start of the last two seasons the consensus was that we had the best squad in the league, and look how that turned out. But granted, yes we do seem to have upgraded in certain areas. In theory they should be good enough if set up properly.
I'm not dismissing the application of the theory completely, I just think it's unreasonable to think that progression through the steps are a given. It may be that we can't progress through them at all under Cook if the basic aims and communication (i.e. training & tactics) are wrong. Or you could be right and we may only need a few weeks for everything to settle down. The presence of a model doesn't predict which way things will go. |  |
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| Read this, get comfortable with it, accept it on 13:36 - Sep 13 with 1564 views | TooManyCooks |
| Read this, get comfortable with it, accept it on 13:27 - Sep 13 by Pinewoodblue |
While it is OK to defend your position it does look as if by doing so TooManyCooks is in danger of spoiling his own broth.
It worth remembering that having an opinion doesn’t mean you are necessarily right. |
In see what you did there :-)
Absolutely agree that just because I believe the model describes our position well, it in no way means it's correct and will come to fruition as laid out, it is just my view of what we are seeing in our performances. However, I have seen this play out numerous times in other industries and it was accurate in those situations and so gives me belief that I should give the manager and club more time to improve the on field performances, we've played just the 6 games. | |
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| Read this, get comfortable with it, accept it on 13:41 - Sep 13 with 1553 views | TooManyCooks |
| Read this, get comfortable with it, accept it on 13:30 - Sep 13 by Swansea_Blue |
Although in a non-sporting setting the success rate is naturally limited by the number of positions available for promotion, whilst variables outside of a teams control can completely derail efforts (e.g. take Liverpool's drastic drop off in form last season due to a run of injuries).
As others have said, the key leader is the manager. If he's no good, no amount of leaders on the pitch will help. A leader on the pitch can certainly can help, although again it's no guarantee - we've had Chambo & Skuse around the place for years, all hailed as leaders by those who worked with them, but that wasn't the magic bullet.
At the moment it's also an assumption about signings. At the start of the last two seasons the consensus was that we had the best squad in the league, and look how that turned out. But granted, yes we do seem to have upgraded in certain areas. In theory they should be good enough if set up properly.
I'm not dismissing the application of the theory completely, I just think it's unreasonable to think that progression through the steps are a given. It may be that we can't progress through them at all under Cook if the basic aims and communication (i.e. training & tactics) are wrong. Or you could be right and we may only need a few weeks for everything to settle down. The presence of a model doesn't predict which way things will go. |
Indeed, this is just one plausible explanation for our current performance levels, but I just think, when we all have our sensible heads on, that it would be wise to give this team and new regime a little bit of time to make things work. It's a tough ask of the fan base, because we have done this before several times over a period of 13 years and things turned out badly, repeatedly, but this is no longer Marcus Evans' Ipswich, we have changed from top to bottom and maybe this is the one time we might actually see a turnaround in fortunes? | |
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| Read this, get comfortable with it, accept it on 16:05 - Sep 13 with 1473 views | SenatorBlue |
| Read this, get comfortable with it, accept it on 11:16 - Sep 13 by Fixed_It |
His record at previous clubs suggests that he is a good football manager. Unfortunately, it seems that ITFC is the problem. We are cursed... |
It definitely feels like we are cursed. |  | | |
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