| Vax for children 07:37 - Sep 14 with 2995 views | chrismakin |
Genuine need of some thoughts regarding the vaccine.
My son is 14, seen that he will soon be eligible for the covid vaccine. Now. I'm double jabbed etc. But I mainly got it to.help protect others rather than just myself.
We are caught on what to do here.. leave it to him to decide as its his right to decide.. tell him we would if it was us. or tell him not to..
Genuinely caught in this minefield of various opinions on the Internet. [Post edited 14 Sep 2021 7:41]
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| Vax for children on 13:28 - Sep 14 with 628 views | Lightworker |
| Vax for children on 11:43 - Sep 14 by JohnWarksTash |
You do make some good points, but the contention the MRNA vaccine hasn't been used before is incorrect. It has been used in human trials for 4 diseases previously and shown to have no adverse effects. Additionally the technology has been in development for decades and many other vaccinations of this type were in phase 1,2, and 3 trials before the Covid pandemic. The reason for their slow development prior to covid was simply that their was no urgency as other methods worked adequately. The arrival of covid just increased the urgency of the trails and the funding thrown at them.
Just wanted to add some balance and really this highlights the difficulty in asking for advise on an internet forum rather than seeking it from experts in the field in question. Whatever decision anyone comes to with regard their children is the correct one.....however an adult refusing the vaccine is, in my opinion, pure ignorance. |
I take your point about the technology having been in development for many years but MRNA vaccines had never been used on general populations prior to Covid, that is a fact.
There is a big difference between controlled trials with a small sample of adult volunteers and the the mass rollout of a vaccine on a real world population of Children who stand to gain only marginal benefit, if any at all.
As I said, there is no reason to suspect it will be detrimental but reality is the human body is complex and different people will react in different ways. The truth is nobody really knows for sure.
I disagree with your last sentence as well. I took the Vaccine myself because I believe the benefits outweigh the risks, but I know people who are younger than me who didn't and can offer perfectly logical and rational reasons for their choice. Is this really selfish? or is it selfish to expect other people to take a vaccine to offer another layer of protection to you?
It is also important to say that they did not 'refuse' they simply made a choice.
To say somebody 'refused' suggests they were defiant and refused an order. We have informed consent in this country so it is not a refusal but simply making a choice that you believe is in your best interests. This is divisive language that is carelessly used by the media in my opinion. [Post edited 14 Sep 2021 13:33]
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| Vax for children on 13:41 - Sep 14 with 601 views | JohnWarksTash |
| Vax for children on 13:28 - Sep 14 by Lightworker |
I take your point about the technology having been in development for many years but MRNA vaccines had never been used on general populations prior to Covid, that is a fact.
There is a big difference between controlled trials with a small sample of adult volunteers and the the mass rollout of a vaccine on a real world population of Children who stand to gain only marginal benefit, if any at all.
As I said, there is no reason to suspect it will be detrimental but reality is the human body is complex and different people will react in different ways. The truth is nobody really knows for sure.
I disagree with your last sentence as well. I took the Vaccine myself because I believe the benefits outweigh the risks, but I know people who are younger than me who didn't and can offer perfectly logical and rational reasons for their choice. Is this really selfish? or is it selfish to expect other people to take a vaccine to offer another layer of protection to you?
It is also important to say that they did not 'refuse' they simply made a choice.
To say somebody 'refused' suggests they were defiant and refused an order. We have informed consent in this country so it is not a refusal but simply making a choice that you believe is in your best interests. This is divisive language that is carelessly used by the media in my opinion. [Post edited 14 Sep 2021 13:33]
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Phase three medical trials generally involve around 3000 people and follow on from phase one and trial trials involving 100+ individuals....I am not disputing that they have not been used on large populations, but the samples are anything but small.
As for your disagreement with my last sentence then that is your right, however I believe not having a vaccine when we are in the middle of a pandemic is a very selfish act. It smacks of misinformation and undue influence by people who peddle myths and lies. Working in the NHS I find it unbelievable that people are allowed to push downright lies on social media. There is no doubt that people have died as a result of being influenced by the anti vax movement. There are numerous cases of prominent anti vax supporters dying of covid, but still people push this rubbish. I genuinely believe that there should be some kind of punishment for people who continue to push a dangerous false narrative.
I would love to know what anti vax and other conspiracy theory pushing pillocks think they are going to achieve? What is their end game?
Anyway rant over.....for now :) |  | | |
| Vax for children on 13:57 - Sep 14 with 579 views | Lightworker |
| Vax for children on 12:41 - Sep 14 by Steve_M |
On your concern Chiefy, it's slightly different with childhood diseases though. We vaccinate a large percentage of the population to protect the rest of them as much as the individual themselves. One vaccinated child with a disease running wild isn't that safe.
Easy for me to speak hypothetically, but teenagers can still spread covid and there are cases of fairly unpleasant lasting effects from the disease. The risks to them of getting covid, although low, are still higher than that of being vaccinated. |
"The risks to them of getting covid, although low, are still higher than that of being vaccinated".
Not sure this is actually true Steve, it would be if we were talking about Measles but not for Covid.
In the article linked below is states that healthy under 16s have a 2 in a million chance of being admitted to ICU for Covid, whereas they have a 3-17 per million chance of Myocarditis after one dose and 12-34 per million after a second dose. This is not taking into account any of the other reported side effects which have effected the Adult population.
Do you have any info that Long Covid is a significant problem for 12-15 year olds?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9988433/Tories-warn-jabs-12s-pit-parent
Nb. Yes I know its the Mail, but no reason to believe the figures are not correct. | | | |
| Vax for children on 14:18 - Sep 14 with 545 views | Mookamoo |
| Vax for children on 13:57 - Sep 14 by Lightworker |
"The risks to them of getting covid, although low, are still higher than that of being vaccinated".
Not sure this is actually true Steve, it would be if we were talking about Measles but not for Covid.
In the article linked below is states that healthy under 16s have a 2 in a million chance of being admitted to ICU for Covid, whereas they have a 3-17 per million chance of Myocarditis after one dose and 12-34 per million after a second dose. This is not taking into account any of the other reported side effects which have effected the Adult population.
Do you have any info that Long Covid is a significant problem for 12-15 year olds?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9988433/Tories-warn-jabs-12s-pit-parent
Nb. Yes I know its the Mail, but no reason to believe the figures are not correct. |
It's a legitimate concern, but I'm trying to work out what I'm seeing in this article that you're not. Not having a go - I'm trying to keep an open mind and listen.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg25133462-800-myocarditis-is-more-common-a
During the first 12 months of the pandemic, males aged 12 to 17 were most likely to develop myocarditis within three months of catching covid-19, at a rate of about 450 cases per million infections. |  | | |
| Vax for children on 14:21 - Sep 14 with 537 views | Lightworker |
| Vax for children on 13:41 - Sep 14 by JohnWarksTash |
Phase three medical trials generally involve around 3000 people and follow on from phase one and trial trials involving 100+ individuals....I am not disputing that they have not been used on large populations, but the samples are anything but small.
As for your disagreement with my last sentence then that is your right, however I believe not having a vaccine when we are in the middle of a pandemic is a very selfish act. It smacks of misinformation and undue influence by people who peddle myths and lies. Working in the NHS I find it unbelievable that people are allowed to push downright lies on social media. There is no doubt that people have died as a result of being influenced by the anti vax movement. There are numerous cases of prominent anti vax supporters dying of covid, but still people push this rubbish. I genuinely believe that there should be some kind of punishment for people who continue to push a dangerous false narrative.
I would love to know what anti vax and other conspiracy theory pushing pillocks think they are going to achieve? What is their end game?
Anyway rant over.....for now :) |
I respect your opinion but we will agree to disagree.
I have no doubt there are people who are influenced by mis-information and I have no time for this either but the people I know are not talking about Bill Gates and microchips etc. They are looking at the data and their overall risk from Covid and deciding that it does not justify taking a vaccine at this point. I cannot argue with this, I have had my vaccine so why should I expect them to take one just to offer me a little more protection? And how much additional protection would that be anyway? There is ample evidence that the vaccines are not great at preventing transmission. | | | |
| Vax for children on 14:23 - Sep 14 with 535 views | JohnWarksTash |
| Vax for children on 13:57 - Sep 14 by Lightworker |
"The risks to them of getting covid, although low, are still higher than that of being vaccinated".
Not sure this is actually true Steve, it would be if we were talking about Measles but not for Covid.
In the article linked below is states that healthy under 16s have a 2 in a million chance of being admitted to ICU for Covid, whereas they have a 3-17 per million chance of Myocarditis after one dose and 12-34 per million after a second dose. This is not taking into account any of the other reported side effects which have effected the Adult population.
Do you have any info that Long Covid is a significant problem for 12-15 year olds?
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9988433/Tories-warn-jabs-12s-pit-parent
Nb. Yes I know its the Mail, but no reason to believe the figures are not correct. |
Given the figures pertaining to ICU admission risk v's Myocarditis risk are not referenced to any particular paper I would argue there is every reason to disbelieve the figures.......
Also the article also sates that "The Government's vaccine advisory committee said at the start of September that it would not recommend jabs for the age group, although they did offer a 'marginal' health benefit to children.". So in the same article they contradict themselves.....so I have done some digging....far be it from me to believe anything I read in the Daily Fail and maybe suspecting them of twisting what was actually published by the JCVI...........
The JCVI statement where this information is lifted from states in the 'Advice' section that "Overall, the committee is of the opinion that the benefits from vaccination are marginally greater than the potential known harms ". It then outlines some caveats stating it "acknowledges that there is considerable uncertainty regarding the magnitude of the potential harms. The margin of benefit, based primarily on a health perspective, is considered too small to support advice on a universal programme of vaccination of otherwise healthy 12 to 15-year-old children at this time. As longer-term data on potential adverse reactions accrue, greater certainty may allow for a reconsideration of the benefits and harms. Such data may not be available for several months."
Essentially the JCVI are stopping short of recommending a full vaccination programme for fit and healthy 12-15 year olds due to the limited data available, however with the data we have it believes their is a benefit to having the jab verses not having it. For context I have two kids under the age of 18 who are both double jabbed due to underlying conditions and both suffered no ill effects. This was well over 6 months ago which is in excess of the normal time period where adverse reactions to vaccinations are expected.
If you would like to read the source data rather than the interpretation of a non medic journalist on the Daily Mail then it can be found here
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/jcvi-statement-september-2021-covid-1 | | | |
| Vax for children on 14:28 - Sep 14 with 527 views | Lightworker |
| Vax for children on 14:18 - Sep 14 by Mookamoo |
It's a legitimate concern, but I'm trying to work out what I'm seeing in this article that you're not. Not having a go - I'm trying to keep an open mind and listen.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg25133462-800-myocarditis-is-more-common-a
During the first 12 months of the pandemic, males aged 12 to 17 were most likely to develop myocarditis within three months of catching covid-19, at a rate of about 450 cases per million infections. |
I don't think you are seeing anything that I am not to be honest. I have not stated that there is a high risk of myocarditis or that it should be a major concern, I merely pointed out it is slightly higher than the very small risk for Covid to the age group we are talking about and that this is also not taking into account other side effects.
What are you taking issue with exactly? | | | |
| Vax for children on 14:36 - Sep 14 with 515 views | JohnWarksTash |
| Vax for children on 14:21 - Sep 14 by Lightworker |
I respect your opinion but we will agree to disagree.
I have no doubt there are people who are influenced by mis-information and I have no time for this either but the people I know are not talking about Bill Gates and microchips etc. They are looking at the data and their overall risk from Covid and deciding that it does not justify taking a vaccine at this point. I cannot argue with this, I have had my vaccine so why should I expect them to take one just to offer me a little more protection? And how much additional protection would that be anyway? There is ample evidence that the vaccines are not great at preventing transmission. |
We could go back and forth like this for days. I will argue until I am blue in the face that the overwhelming evidence from gold standard peer reviewed papers is that the vaccine is perfectly safe in the vast majority of cases and that the vaccination programme has reduced hospital admissions and deaths considerably.
Not having the jab during a pandemic when it has been proven beyond doubt that it reduces your chance of dying of covid and reduces the rate of transmission is as best ill advised and at worst stupid. PHE reviews have shown one jab reduces transmission by up to 50% and two jabs by even more. This isn't stuff pulled from disparate sites on the internet it's peer reviewed literature based research from a number of studies.
As for the argument that we shouldn't expect others to proactively do something to protect the public health is daft and very inward looking. The 'I'm alright Jack' attitude is awful. Would you not want your HIV positive partner to wear protection? Be Ok with someone with TB coughing in your face? If you developed an infection because the nurse dressing your leg ulcer didn't use aseptic techniques you would be happy with that? No you wouldn't. We all have a responsibility to protect each other. | | | |
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| Vax for children on 14:41 - Sep 14 with 508 views | JohnWarksTash |
| Vax for children on 14:28 - Sep 14 by Lightworker |
I don't think you are seeing anything that I am not to be honest. I have not stated that there is a high risk of myocarditis or that it should be a major concern, I merely pointed out it is slightly higher than the very small risk for Covid to the age group we are talking about and that this is also not taking into account other side effects.
What are you taking issue with exactly? |
I mean you do actually say the following.......
"In the article linked below is states that healthy under 16s have a 2 in a million chance of being admitted to ICU for Covid, whereas they have a 3-17 per million chance of Myocarditis after one dose and 12-34 per million after a second dose. This is not taking into account any of the other reported side effects which have effected the Adult population."
So you are stating that their is a higher risk of myocarditis........ #justsaying | | | |
| Vax for children on 14:47 - Sep 14 with 496 views | Mookamoo |
| Vax for children on 14:28 - Sep 14 by Lightworker |
I don't think you are seeing anything that I am not to be honest. I have not stated that there is a high risk of myocarditis or that it should be a major concern, I merely pointed out it is slightly higher than the very small risk for Covid to the age group we are talking about and that this is also not taking into account other side effects.
What are you taking issue with exactly? |
I'm trying to work out the numbers - if we have them.
I do the odd shift at a vaccine centre, and will asked about the risks. I just want to be confident I'm not just repeating what I'm being told. I can understand the technology behind the Pfizer vaccine can be subjective, and really depends on what people consider to be a long enough study period, but from what I can see the issue of myocarditis just becomes a toss up between if they get Covid or not and the relative risks one way or another. | | | |
| Vax for children on 14:56 - Sep 14 with 490 views | Lightworker |
| Vax for children on 14:36 - Sep 14 by JohnWarksTash |
We could go back and forth like this for days. I will argue until I am blue in the face that the overwhelming evidence from gold standard peer reviewed papers is that the vaccine is perfectly safe in the vast majority of cases and that the vaccination programme has reduced hospital admissions and deaths considerably.
Not having the jab during a pandemic when it has been proven beyond doubt that it reduces your chance of dying of covid and reduces the rate of transmission is as best ill advised and at worst stupid. PHE reviews have shown one jab reduces transmission by up to 50% and two jabs by even more. This isn't stuff pulled from disparate sites on the internet it's peer reviewed literature based research from a number of studies.
As for the argument that we shouldn't expect others to proactively do something to protect the public health is daft and very inward looking. The 'I'm alright Jack' attitude is awful. Would you not want your HIV positive partner to wear protection? Be Ok with someone with TB coughing in your face? If you developed an infection because the nurse dressing your leg ulcer didn't use aseptic techniques you would be happy with that? No you wouldn't. We all have a responsibility to protect each other. |
Your last paragraph is bordering on the ridiculous and seems to be driven by emotion rather than fact. Like you say we could go on for days and I can easily provide you with data that completely debunks your claimed PHE evidence. For example Israel is one of the most highly vaccinated countries on the planet and yet they have had an exponential rise in cases and data shows almost no difference between % of cases attributed to vaccinated/unvaccinated. The evidence for reduced transmission is weak at best.
I think best we agree to disagree. I have no intention to try and change your mind or to turn this into a 10 pager. Have a good day. | | | |
| Vax for children on 15:22 - Sep 14 with 451 views | Swansea_Blue |
Best advice I can offer CM is to speak to your GP, as others have mentioned, and not listen to people pushing anti-vax stuff on the internet. It's quite scary how they're starting to unsettle people around this. I bet you're kids had all their vaccines when younger and you didn't bat an eyelid.
My kids have had all recommended vaccines since they were born and will be getting this one as well (well, the oldest will). But don't take my word for it - go and speak to a medical professional if you've any questions/doubts. |  |
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| Vax for children on 15:25 - Sep 14 with 446 views | JohnWarksTash |
| Vax for children on 14:56 - Sep 14 by Lightworker |
Your last paragraph is bordering on the ridiculous and seems to be driven by emotion rather than fact. Like you say we could go on for days and I can easily provide you with data that completely debunks your claimed PHE evidence. For example Israel is one of the most highly vaccinated countries on the planet and yet they have had an exponential rise in cases and data shows almost no difference between % of cases attributed to vaccinated/unvaccinated. The evidence for reduced transmission is weak at best.
I think best we agree to disagree. I have no intention to try and change your mind or to turn this into a 10 pager. Have a good day. |
This is my last comment on the subject.......
Firstly you need to update your figures. Israel is not one of the most highly vaccinated countries anymore....in fact is now sits in 32nd place below the likes of the UK, Cambodia and Chile (again here is the link to the actual stats not just numbers pulled from space
( https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/world/covid-vaccinations-tracker.html)
Maybe the fact I have lost a number of colleagues to C19 does cloud my view , but again I only refer to decent verifiable data when coming to a decision regarding mine and my patient's health.....evidenced based practice is the backbone of my job
The Israeli Health Ministry stated last month that " the rate of serious cases among unvaccinated people over age 60 (178.7 per 100,000) was nine times more than the rate among fully vaccinated people of the same age category, and the rate of serious cases among unvaccinated people in the under-60 crowd (3.2 per 100,000) was a little more than double the rate among vaccinated people in that age bracket." Additionally only around 61% of the eligible population have been fully vaccinated in Israel which is far below that needed for herd immunity to be achieved.........if you want to use Israel as your gold standard then I think the statement by Eran Segal of the Weizmann Institute of Science, who advises the Israeli government on COVID-19 sums it up best ...
"We have a very large fraction of our population who are paying the price for a small fraction of the population who did not go to get the vaccine. Unvaccinated people helped fuel the rapid spread of the virus while the country remained open for business in recent months with few serious restrictions. "That will lead to mass infection, which is exactly what we are seeing now,"
I don't want a ten pager either...all I want is people to use verifiable gold standard source data to make their minds up and not be influenced by Eric23423423 on Twitter and his inaccurate memes :)
(My background is healthcare and I have published a number of clinical research papers as well as supervise under and post graduate studies so crunching the facts and backing them up with stats is what I do....all my decisions are made upon the balance of verifiable gold standard evidence . Oh and i am very aware that I come across as preachy! ) | | | |
| Vax for children on 15:26 - Sep 14 with 444 views | borge |
| Vax for children on 14:56 - Sep 14 by Lightworker |
Your last paragraph is bordering on the ridiculous and seems to be driven by emotion rather than fact. Like you say we could go on for days and I can easily provide you with data that completely debunks your claimed PHE evidence. For example Israel is one of the most highly vaccinated countries on the planet and yet they have had an exponential rise in cases and data shows almost no difference between % of cases attributed to vaccinated/unvaccinated. The evidence for reduced transmission is weak at best.
I think best we agree to disagree. I have no intention to try and change your mind or to turn this into a 10 pager. Have a good day. |
Whilst this argument may be driven by emotion and whilst I acknowledge that you are presenting some very compelling arguments against vaccinating children, the moral argument outweighs the scientific one here for me (given the scientific one is such a close run thing).
We increasingly live in a society where people have no sense of collective responsibility and the refusal of people to accept that there is a compelling reason to take an incredibly small risk in order to help others is a prime example.
If I am understanding correctly, you are suggesting kids would get no personal benefit from this. That's absolute rollocks! It may be true in terms of short-term personal protection from COVID, but it's certainly not true when you think about the wider benefits of reaching a point where COVID represents a significantly lower ongoing threat to society. There is limited value in adults being vaccinated if kids are simply going to perpetuate the spread of COVID and possibly with it the risk of significantly more dangerous variants. Your argument effectively assumes these kids won't grow up to be adults.... The more protection society as a whole can gain against COVID through vaccination, the lower the risks for children when they reach adulthood. |  | | |
| Vax for children on 15:33 - Sep 14 with 428 views | Lightworker |
| Vax for children on 14:41 - Sep 14 by JohnWarksTash |
I mean you do actually say the following.......
"In the article linked below is states that healthy under 16s have a 2 in a million chance of being admitted to ICU for Covid, whereas they have a 3-17 per million chance of Myocarditis after one dose and 12-34 per million after a second dose. This is not taking into account any of the other reported side effects which have effected the Adult population."
So you are stating that their is a higher risk of myocarditis........ #justsaying |
With respect I think you might need to calm down and perhaps read through some of this again because you appear to be getting into a bit of a muddle
I AM saying there is a slightly higher risk yes, I never denied this.
I acknowledged that the risk was still very low but nevertheless was higher than the risk of ICU admission from Covid.
This is the only part of the Mail article I quoted so the tangent you have gone off on regarding the JCVI is completely irrelevant. You seem to want to pick a fight with an anti-vaxxer but i'm afraid you have the wrong person. I am in favour of vaccines in general but that doesn't mean I ignore all data that contradicts my position. Maybe you should ask yourself if you are looking at things objectively or not. | | | |
| Vax for children on 15:34 - Sep 14 with 425 views | JohnWarksTash |
| Vax for children on 15:26 - Sep 14 by borge |
Whilst this argument may be driven by emotion and whilst I acknowledge that you are presenting some very compelling arguments against vaccinating children, the moral argument outweighs the scientific one here for me (given the scientific one is such a close run thing).
We increasingly live in a society where people have no sense of collective responsibility and the refusal of people to accept that there is a compelling reason to take an incredibly small risk in order to help others is a prime example.
If I am understanding correctly, you are suggesting kids would get no personal benefit from this. That's absolute rollocks! It may be true in terms of short-term personal protection from COVID, but it's certainly not true when you think about the wider benefits of reaching a point where COVID represents a significantly lower ongoing threat to society. There is limited value in adults being vaccinated if kids are simply going to perpetuate the spread of COVID and possibly with it the risk of significantly more dangerous variants. Your argument effectively assumes these kids won't grow up to be adults.... The more protection society as a whole can gain against COVID through vaccination, the lower the risks for children when they reach adulthood. |
The key phrase in this is 'collective responsibility' and I think the past few years with Brexit and people's response to C19 the UK has demonstrated that a significant minority of individuals can't see past the end of their own noses or look beyond the next 5 minutes. This isn't a criticism of any one individual by the way but a comment on wider society....but I would take great pleasure in tearing Farage a new one and facing up to anti vax protesters and serving them up their backsides on a plate :) | | | |
| Vax for children on 15:36 - Sep 14 with 418 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Vax for children on 10:09 - Sep 14 by bluelagos |
"There’s nothing wrong with being a little more apprehensive ..."
This x 100.
Anyone now or later seeking to label anyone as selfish, stupid or inconsiderate should do one frankly. Perfectly natural for parents to worry about vaccinating their kids and some will choose not to. That is their right and their choice and I'd hope anyone making that choice doesn't get the "public shame" thrown at them that sometimes happens.
And ref the OP, I'd suggest you and your kid speak to your GP if you are worried about the vaccine effects and follow their advice, much as you would any other health issue. |
Can't say I ever thought to question and vaccines my family have had over the years, whether essential early years ones or those needed for travel.
Being increasingly apprehensive and a general rise in vaccine skepticism seems to be a result of the anti-vax nonsense which filters through slowly, even if subconsciously. Look at the damage they did on MMR which lead to a big drop in vaccination rates and subsequent unnecessary deaths and disabilities. They're borderline criminals in my eyes.
People are right to put their faith in the professional teams who have developed and tested these vaccines. And we trust others every day with our lives and health, without even thinking about it. Statistically it's probably far more likely that my kids will be killed in the bus on the way to school, yet I don't question the bus driver every morning.
But again, anyone with questions or doubts should go and speak to their GP as the first port of call, not listen to me. | |
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| Vax for children on 15:49 - Sep 14 with 401 views | Lightworker |
| Vax for children on 14:47 - Sep 14 by Mookamoo |
I'm trying to work out the numbers - if we have them.
I do the odd shift at a vaccine centre, and will asked about the risks. I just want to be confident I'm not just repeating what I'm being told. I can understand the technology behind the Pfizer vaccine can be subjective, and really depends on what people consider to be a long enough study period, but from what I can see the issue of myocarditis just becomes a toss up between if they get Covid or not and the relative risks one way or another. |
Fair enough. We are talking fine margins here but personally I would rather take the risk of my 14 year old getting Covid (which is likely to be extremely mild) than take the risk of myocarditis which could be serious and cause long term damage.
That's just my take, i'm not saying it is right or that everybody else is wrong. | | | |
| Vax for children on 15:52 - Sep 14 with 395 views | hype313 |
| Vax for children on 15:49 - Sep 14 by Lightworker |
Fair enough. We are talking fine margins here but personally I would rather take the risk of my 14 year old getting Covid (which is likely to be extremely mild) than take the risk of myocarditis which could be serious and cause long term damage.
That's just my take, i'm not saying it is right or that everybody else is wrong. |
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| Vax for children on 16:04 - Sep 14 with 376 views | phillymark |
In the States, where I live, we've been vaxxing 12 and up for a while, with basically zero issues. We've also seen increased hospitalizations of unvaxxed kids
Get vaccinated | | | |
| Vax for children on 16:07 - Sep 14 with 367 views | phillymark |
| Vax for children on 11:01 - Sep 14 by Lightworker |
I suspect there will be many parents in your position right now. It's not a clear cut choice to make and anybody who comes down too hard either way is probably best avoided while trying to make your decision.
Personally I will be choosing not get this vaccine for my Child as I find the arguments for, to be somewhat weak. To have a child take a vaccine to potentially protect Adults when it offers little if any advantage to them does not really sit well with me. I would also question how much real world protection to others it will really provide when they are only taking one dose and the vaccines have been shown to have limited effectiveness in preventing transmission.
I also find the argument of reducing disruption in Schools to be questionable as there is no real evidence this will be the case and they don't seem t be factoring in the inevitable side effects, which although mostly mild are still likely to to involve a significant number of sick days for headaches, high temperature etc.
The medical / health case for giving this vaccine is not a strong one as the JCVI concluded. The overall risk to this age group from Covid is extremely low and the vast majority will have either mild or no symptoms. Long Covid has to be considered but again it does not seem to be significant in this age group. It is also worth considering that the risk of Myocarditis, while very low, is still higher than the risk of hospitalisation from Covid in this age group, particularly for boys.
The MRNA vaccines are also a brand new technology not used previously so long term effects are uncertain. This obviously applies to Adults as well as Children but the older you go up the age range the more the benefit/risk ratio swings in favor of taking it. I should add that there is no reason to suspect MRNA vaccines will have adverse long term effects but for me it is safer to wait where Children are concerned. .
It is ultimately up to you as parents and your Son to decide and I agree with Lagos that nobody should be vilified either way for the choice they make. It is not clear cut in the way that giving a Child a vaccine for Measles or Polio is and it does not make you an anti-vaxxer if you decide against. |
Latest data from American Academic of Pediatrics
243,373 child COVID-19 cases were reported the past week from 9/2/21-9/9/21 (5,049,465 to 5,292,837) and children represented 28.9% (243,373/840,838) of the weekly reported cases
Over two weeks, 8/26/21-9/9/21, there was a 10% increase in the cumulated number of child COVID-19 cases since the beginning of the pandemic (495,154 cases added (4,797,683 to 5,292,837))
Among states reporting, children made up between 11.1%-21.6% of total cumulated state tests, and between 4.9%-17.8% of children tested were tested positive
Among states reporting, children ranged from 1.6%-4.0% of their total cumulated hospitalizations, and 0.1%-1.9% of all their child COVID-19 cases resulted in hospitalization
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| Vax for children on 16:33 - Sep 14 with 329 views | Lightworker |
| Vax for children on 15:52 - Sep 14 by hype313 |
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Not watching the press conference but I assume this is talking about Adults and not 12 year olds so not sure how this is relevant to the topic, but thanks anyway. | | | |
| Vax for children on 16:40 - Sep 14 with 320 views | Lightworker |
| Vax for children on 15:26 - Sep 14 by borge |
Whilst this argument may be driven by emotion and whilst I acknowledge that you are presenting some very compelling arguments against vaccinating children, the moral argument outweighs the scientific one here for me (given the scientific one is such a close run thing).
We increasingly live in a society where people have no sense of collective responsibility and the refusal of people to accept that there is a compelling reason to take an incredibly small risk in order to help others is a prime example.
If I am understanding correctly, you are suggesting kids would get no personal benefit from this. That's absolute rollocks! It may be true in terms of short-term personal protection from COVID, but it's certainly not true when you think about the wider benefits of reaching a point where COVID represents a significantly lower ongoing threat to society. There is limited value in adults being vaccinated if kids are simply going to perpetuate the spread of COVID and possibly with it the risk of significantly more dangerous variants. Your argument effectively assumes these kids won't grow up to be adults.... The more protection society as a whole can gain against COVID through vaccination, the lower the risks for children when they reach adulthood. |
I understand where you are coming from here but I have to disagree.
"There is limited value in adults being vaccinated if kids are simply going to perpetuate the spread of COVID and possibly with it the risk of significantly more dangerous variants"
There is no certainty that this will happen and it is not universally accepted by scientists that it will. In any case this does not seem to be one of the reasons put forward by the Government which seems to be based largely around Educational disruption and associated mental health effects.
This is also not taking into account that it is estimated that over 50% of School age Children have already had exposure to Covid and have already acquired natural immunity. | | | |
| Vax for children on 16:40 - Sep 14 with 320 views | ElephantintheRoom |
Seems a shame to be vaccinating children for a disease that has near insignificant risks whilst millions are dying the world over for want of vaccines hoarded by rich countries.
Ultimately this is a gobal problem - and vaccinating children isn't going to do much except enhance the risk of a deadly mutation in countries denied vaccines so countries paying top dollar can indulge in near pointless vaccination of children - and boosters. | |
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| Vax for children on 16:52 - Sep 14 with 305 views | bluelagos |
| Vax for children on 16:40 - Sep 14 by ElephantintheRoom |
Seems a shame to be vaccinating children for a disease that has near insignificant risks whilst millions are dying the world over for want of vaccines hoarded by rich countries.
Ultimately this is a gobal problem - and vaccinating children isn't going to do much except enhance the risk of a deadly mutation in countries denied vaccines so countries paying top dollar can indulge in near pointless vaccination of children - and boosters. |
That is the responsibility of those who choose where vaccinations go, not those on the receiving end of a jab. Children or their parents sinply don't get to redirect their jabs overseas. |  |
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