| Word of warning 09:48 - Sep 15 with 11750 views | Lord_Lucan |
Don't get ill, give birth or be in an ambulance on the way to hospital if you are on the M25 today. |  |
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| Word of warning on 22:45 - Sep 16 with 740 views | Ryorry |
| Word of warning on 21:28 - Sep 16 by Herbivore |
Given our central role in perpetuating a laissez faire capitalist system where profit trumps people I'd say we bear a significant portion of the blame. There's no money to be made in saving the planet. |
I've been pointing out for the last 25+ years that there's been *plenty* of money to be made in the renewables sector, if only the political will had been there for investment & the kind of subsidies in it that the fossil fuel industries have been cossetted with. That it hasn't been is not least because certainly in the UK, most Tory cabinet members have had vested interests in the oil & gas industries ...
Sadly no big business leaders, Prime Ministers, Leaders of HM Opposition, nor even the Tory MP whose constituency I live in have ever listened to me. *That* is what I mean by it being necessary to target world leaders, not the mere mortals trying to survive & get by as best they can.
To Bellevue - will have a look at your post in more detail tomorrow as I'm off to bed shortly, but as I've already indicated, I've been aware of many of these issues for the past 50+ years thanks, albeit always happy to learn more 👠|  |
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| Word of warning on 23:05 - Sep 16 with 690 views | Herbivore |
| Word of warning on 22:45 - Sep 16 by Ryorry |
I've been pointing out for the last 25+ years that there's been *plenty* of money to be made in the renewables sector, if only the political will had been there for investment & the kind of subsidies in it that the fossil fuel industries have been cossetted with. That it hasn't been is not least because certainly in the UK, most Tory cabinet members have had vested interests in the oil & gas industries ...
Sadly no big business leaders, Prime Ministers, Leaders of HM Opposition, nor even the Tory MP whose constituency I live in have ever listened to me. *That* is what I mean by it being necessary to target world leaders, not the mere mortals trying to survive & get by as best they can.
To Bellevue - will have a look at your post in more detail tomorrow as I'm off to bed shortly, but as I've already indicated, I've been aware of many of these issues for the past 50+ years thanks, albeit always happy to learn more 👠|
Your first paragraph rather contradicts itself. There's clearly not plenty of money to be made from renewables if the sector is heavily reliant on government subsidies. There's not a lot in it for venture capitalists, the kind of people this country and much of the global economy is run for. |  |
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| Word of warning on 06:03 - Sep 17 with 616 views | Ryorry |
| Word of warning on 23:05 - Sep 16 by Herbivore |
Your first paragraph rather contradicts itself. There's clearly not plenty of money to be made from renewables if the sector is heavily reliant on government subsidies. There's not a lot in it for venture capitalists, the kind of people this country and much of the global economy is run for. |
Nothing contradictory about it at all; if anything approaching the same amount of dosh had been put into R & D in renewables & subsidies in the 1990s & 2000s as was put into oil & gas, shedloadsa dosh would have been made by governments, venture capitalists & UK businesses since then. I never cease to be amazed that the tories, supposed party of "business" continually either failed or refused to see that. But their corruption is more visible now of course.
When I lived on the Orkney Isles in the '90s, their then Inst. of Oceanography already had working models of wave powered turbines. We're literally surrounded daily by that free energy, and *could* have become world leaders in it - probably still could given half a chance. | |
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| Word of warning on 07:05 - Sep 17 with 595 views | Herbivore |
| Word of warning on 06:03 - Sep 17 by Ryorry |
Nothing contradictory about it at all; if anything approaching the same amount of dosh had been put into R & D in renewables & subsidies in the 1990s & 2000s as was put into oil & gas, shedloadsa dosh would have been made by governments, venture capitalists & UK businesses since then. I never cease to be amazed that the tories, supposed party of "business" continually either failed or refused to see that. But their corruption is more visible now of course.
When I lived on the Orkney Isles in the '90s, their then Inst. of Oceanography already had working models of wave powered turbines. We're literally surrounded daily by that free energy, and *could* have become world leaders in it - probably still could given half a chance. |
How do you monetise what you yourself have labelled as "free energy"? There's a reason the political will hasn't been there to really push for renewables. | |
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| Word of warning on 08:38 - Sep 17 with 548 views | giant_stow |
| Word of warning on 23:05 - Sep 16 by Herbivore |
Your first paragraph rather contradicts itself. There's clearly not plenty of money to be made from renewables if the sector is heavily reliant on government subsidies. There's not a lot in it for venture capitalists, the kind of people this country and much of the global economy is run for. |
Not sure it's true that renewable are heavily reliant on subsidies or not popular investments.
Think the cost per unit of wind power produced is continually getting cheaper and more competitive for example. The total proportion of wind power produced, compared to other sources is also much higher than 10 years ago. Loads more farms planned and there's even talk of exporting green energy from the UK. |  |
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| Word of warning on 09:18 - Sep 17 with 522 views | Herbivore |
| Word of warning on 08:38 - Sep 17 by giant_stow |
Not sure it's true that renewable are heavily reliant on subsidies or not popular investments.
Think the cost per unit of wind power produced is continually getting cheaper and more competitive for example. The total proportion of wind power produced, compared to other sources is also much higher than 10 years ago. Loads more farms planned and there's even talk of exporting green energy from the UK. |
Only circa 40% of electricity generated in the UK is from renewable sources so I'm not sure we're at a point of exporting green energy when we're still so reliant on non-renewable sources ourselves. That's without even taking into account how reliant many homes are on gas.
All of this comes down to cost of course, it is feasible to get the UK to 100% renewable energy and to convert homes to use things like air source heat pumps or to use underfloor heating. However it's also expensive and we live in a society where everything is about money first and foremost, to the extent that money and the economy are considered more important than preserving the planet. It's rather insane when you stop and think about it. | |
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| Word of warning on 09:29 - Sep 17 with 511 views | giant_stow |
| Word of warning on 09:18 - Sep 17 by Herbivore |
Only circa 40% of electricity generated in the UK is from renewable sources so I'm not sure we're at a point of exporting green energy when we're still so reliant on non-renewable sources ourselves. That's without even taking into account how reliant many homes are on gas.
All of this comes down to cost of course, it is feasible to get the UK to 100% renewable energy and to convert homes to use things like air source heat pumps or to use underfloor heating. However it's also expensive and we live in a society where everything is about money first and foremost, to the extent that money and the economy are considered more important than preserving the planet. It's rather insane when you stop and think about it. |
I'm a bit more hopeful than that personally. We're currently going through a fossil fuel price crunch for example, but what if that's just the new normal? Green energy will start to look even more attractive and also reliable in security terms too. And the more expensive fosil power gets, the more incentive there'll be to use less and conserve more.
Edit: think exporting wind power would be on future windy days when there s even more generation capacity, which could be sent through the interconnector lines back to Europe.
Ii agree we're in a world where money determines everything, but think that in the green switch over at least, that could work in our favour in this case. [Post edited 17 Sep 2021 9:31]
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| Word of warning on 09:33 - Sep 17 with 503 views | Herbivore |
| Word of warning on 09:29 - Sep 17 by giant_stow |
I'm a bit more hopeful than that personally. We're currently going through a fossil fuel price crunch for example, but what if that's just the new normal? Green energy will start to look even more attractive and also reliable in security terms too. And the more expensive fosil power gets, the more incentive there'll be to use less and conserve more.
Edit: think exporting wind power would be on future windy days when there s even more generation capacity, which could be sent through the interconnector lines back to Europe.
Ii agree we're in a world where money determines everything, but think that in the green switch over at least, that could work in our favour in this case. [Post edited 17 Sep 2021 9:31]
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It's increasingly looking all a bit too late though. And for change to happen at the pace needed to have an impact would require huge investment, investment that won't be forthcoming. The market takes care of many things, but it's never been fit for purpose for addressing social goods because it's a system fundamentally based on individualism and greed. Where some good comes from it, it's a happy accident rather than the intended consequence. | |
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| Word of warning on 09:43 - Sep 17 with 492 views | giant_stow |
| Word of warning on 09:33 - Sep 17 by Herbivore |
It's increasingly looking all a bit too late though. And for change to happen at the pace needed to have an impact would require huge investment, investment that won't be forthcoming. The market takes care of many things, but it's never been fit for purpose for addressing social goods because it's a system fundamentally based on individualism and greed. Where some good comes from it, it's a happy accident rather than the intended consequence. |
Where I agree with you is the wider economy's ability to get things right in these matters. Old thought but the environmental cost of economic activity isn't reflected in the bare indicators like gdp etc. | |
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| Word of warning on 11:09 - Sep 17 with 447 views | Ryorry |
| Word of warning on 07:05 - Sep 17 by Herbivore |
How do you monetise what you yourself have labelled as "free energy"? There's a reason the political will hasn't been there to really push for renewables. |
In the same way that Windhager (the Austrian manufacturer of my Biomass boiler) is minting it in sales & servicing of those boilers, along with other German & Austrian manufacturers who are now the world leaders in making these, with a well-deserved reputation for their top quality and durability. UK manufacture in these has sadly always lagged behind & lacks their quality, but we could have been there in place of Germany & Austria if we'd had their vision & will 20 years ago. | |
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| Word of warning on 11:22 - Sep 17 with 434 views | jaykay |
| Word of warning on 11:14 - Sep 16 by Digger77 |
LoL, as the youngsters say.
Classic TWTD. [Post edited 16 Sep 2021 11:14]
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or classic benters |  |
| forensic experts say footers and spruces fingerprints were not found at the scene after the weekends rows |
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| Word of warning on 11:25 - Sep 17 with 434 views | Herbivore |
| Word of warning on 11:09 - Sep 17 by Ryorry |
In the same way that Windhager (the Austrian manufacturer of my Biomass boiler) is minting it in sales & servicing of those boilers, along with other German & Austrian manufacturers who are now the world leaders in making these, with a well-deserved reputation for their top quality and durability. UK manufacture in these has sadly always lagged behind & lacks their quality, but we could have been there in place of Germany & Austria if we'd had their vision & will 20 years ago. |
That's one small example of a company operating in what remains a niche market. I'm talking on a larger scale. If it made economic sense to switch to renewables quickly it'd already have happened. | |
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| Word of warning on 11:52 - Sep 17 with 412 views | Ryorry |
| Word of warning on 11:25 - Sep 17 by Herbivore |
That's one small example of a company operating in what remains a niche market. I'm talking on a larger scale. If it made economic sense to switch to renewables quickly it'd already have happened. |
The point I've been making is that it *need not* have been a niche market - renewables *could* have, *should* have, been the major players in place of ffuels (ffs!) if investment in R&D & incentives had been forthcoming when these technologies (esp wave power but also including ground & air source heat pumps which you've already mentioned) were in their infancy! I don't know why you're finding it so difficult to grasp these points. | |
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| Word of warning on 11:59 - Sep 17 with 402 views | Herbivore |
| Word of warning on 11:52 - Sep 17 by Ryorry |
The point I've been making is that it *need not* have been a niche market - renewables *could* have, *should* have, been the major players in place of ffuels (ffs!) if investment in R&D & incentives had been forthcoming when these technologies (esp wave power but also including ground & air source heat pumps which you've already mentioned) were in their infancy! I don't know why you're finding it so difficult to grasp these points. |
And that R&D isn't cost freel with no guarantee of profit at the end. For these companies to make money there needs to be a demand and the reason these companies are still relatively niche is because the demand isn't there. To create demand the government could use subsidies of course but again that is more cost. I don't know why you're finding these points so hard to grasp. If we didn't have a system where profit is more important than people and the environment then we'd already be fully renewable. | |
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| Word of warning on 12:10 - Sep 17 with 391 views | Ryorry |
| Word of warning on 11:59 - Sep 17 by Herbivore |
And that R&D isn't cost freel with no guarantee of profit at the end. For these companies to make money there needs to be a demand and the reason these companies are still relatively niche is because the demand isn't there. To create demand the government could use subsidies of course but again that is more cost. I don't know why you're finding these points so hard to grasp. If we didn't have a system where profit is more important than people and the environment then we'd already be fully renewable. |
I thought with your intelligence you'd be able to grasp the basic point that *of course* R&D isn't free, but investment at the key points early doors would have returned the initial outlay plus massive profits, *in the same way that investment in the oil & gas industries has done*.
IF governments 20-25 years ago had followed that path instead of bolstering the ff industries & the financial institutes that supported those which they & their families were heavily invested in, along with a programme of educating the public, there *would* have been a demand. It's pretty basic. | |
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| Word of warning on 12:35 - Sep 17 with 370 views | Herbivore |
| Word of warning on 12:10 - Sep 17 by Ryorry |
I thought with your intelligence you'd be able to grasp the basic point that *of course* R&D isn't free, but investment at the key points early doors would have returned the initial outlay plus massive profits, *in the same way that investment in the oil & gas industries has done*.
IF governments 20-25 years ago had followed that path instead of bolstering the ff industries & the financial institutes that supported those which they & their families were heavily invested in, along with a programme of educating the public, there *would* have been a demand. It's pretty basic. |
I give up. | |
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