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Meanwhile, in Australia ... update on 07:13 - Sep 24 by StochesStotasBlewe
He's lives on the Mornington peninsular, 60km from Melbourne. Heard from him this morning .
"Despite the distance from the city, we are still classed as metropolitan which means we have been in lockdown for 240 days and counting, stay at home, only 4 reasons to go out, 5km radius, masks at all times and the draconian list goes on. The kids are struggling, no school, no sport, no social interaction, we are not allowed to meet friends for a chat, have people round, better stop ranting now"
Just a snippet of his message this morning.
[Redacted]
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Meanwhile, in Australia ... update on 07:47 - Sep 24 with 1235 views
I've never been to Australia so I don't know what I am talking about, but...
I read recently that Aus is the most urbanised nation in the World, which puzzles me given that relative to most other nations there is quite a lot of space to stretch out - even when you discount the deserts and inhospitable tropical bits. Living as I do in a part of the United Kingdom where it is easier to avoid crowds I have appreciated it being easier to cope with the lock downs and wish that some of the densely packed towns and cities eased the transmission burden on the rest of us. But real estate economics don't work well for that and I have also read that new arrivals in Australia are often shocked that there is so much land yet building land is fearfully expensive.
And on your Europe in World War Two point, yes I agree - Melbourne isn't Sharpeville in 1976 either. But urbanblue does have a point about the police response, one of the issues that came out of the George Floyd protests was how militarised the police in the United States are. Like real estate, there is a whole industry and market forces movement that seems to be allowed to expand in an apparently unregulated manner to the detriment of personal human agency.
Meanwhile, in Australia ... update on 07:47 - Sep 24 by WeWereZombies
I've never been to Australia so I don't know what I am talking about, but...
I read recently that Aus is the most urbanised nation in the World, which puzzles me given that relative to most other nations there is quite a lot of space to stretch out - even when you discount the deserts and inhospitable tropical bits. Living as I do in a part of the United Kingdom where it is easier to avoid crowds I have appreciated it being easier to cope with the lock downs and wish that some of the densely packed towns and cities eased the transmission burden on the rest of us. But real estate economics don't work well for that and I have also read that new arrivals in Australia are often shocked that there is so much land yet building land is fearfully expensive.
And on your Europe in World War Two point, yes I agree - Melbourne isn't Sharpeville in 1976 either. But urbanblue does have a point about the police response, one of the issues that came out of the George Floyd protests was how militarised the police in the United States are. Like real estate, there is a whole industry and market forces movement that seems to be allowed to expand in an apparently unregulated manner to the detriment of personal human agency.
[Redacted]
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Meanwhile, in Australia ... update on 08:23 - Sep 24 with 1174 views
If vaccination centres are being attacked then, agreed, a shameful thing to do and reminiscent of so-called 'pro-life' activists shooting doctors who work at legal abortion clinics: https://apnews.com/article/ca52e65512d64d71901780e7621f12e1
And if people going to work are attacked (and the police are some of the people going to work) then any legitimate freedom based protest is nullified in the eyes of many, some of whom may agree with an assertion of positive freedom - the right to do as you please, in the simplest of terms. Because being attacked tramples on another view of freedom, negative freedom or the right not to be interfered with. Actually this also applies to police who overreach their authority and 'a few beef head tradies get a blood nose' in your words without due process being followed then more people get marginalised to the point of extremism.
Trying to tie this all together, and coming back to the opening of my previous post - I've never been to Australia but when travel restrictions, practicalities and the health situation ease up enough it has stepped up quite a few places on my bucket list. I have had a hankering to go ever since I read Les Murray's 'The Dream of Wearing Shorts Forever', which even gets used by your tourist board:
But I think I will be avoiding the suburbs and the malls for the main part of the trip, maybe a jaunt or to in tribute to Kath and KIm...
Meanwhile, in Australia ... update on 09:00 - Sep 24 by WeWereZombies
If vaccination centres are being attacked then, agreed, a shameful thing to do and reminiscent of so-called 'pro-life' activists shooting doctors who work at legal abortion clinics: https://apnews.com/article/ca52e65512d64d71901780e7621f12e1
And if people going to work are attacked (and the police are some of the people going to work) then any legitimate freedom based protest is nullified in the eyes of many, some of whom may agree with an assertion of positive freedom - the right to do as you please, in the simplest of terms. Because being attacked tramples on another view of freedom, negative freedom or the right not to be interfered with. Actually this also applies to police who overreach their authority and 'a few beef head tradies get a blood nose' in your words without due process being followed then more people get marginalised to the point of extremism.
Trying to tie this all together, and coming back to the opening of my previous post - I've never been to Australia but when travel restrictions, practicalities and the health situation ease up enough it has stepped up quite a few places on my bucket list. I have had a hankering to go ever since I read Les Murray's 'The Dream of Wearing Shorts Forever', which even gets used by your tourist board:
But I think I will be avoiding the suburbs and the malls for the main part of the trip, maybe a jaunt or to in tribute to Kath and KIm...
Meanwhile, in Australia ... update on 22:06 - Sep 23 by Swansea_Blue
You've made most of that up in order to create something to get angry about.
- I haven't read anything in the media about this. The only views I've seen are from 2 people on this thread who live (or lived) in Oz.
- No vaccine (or any medicine) is 100% effective or 100% safe, and yes that is both morally and ethically ok as the alternative to not having it is worse for the individual and the community.
- I don't back police brutality. I said "nobody want to see this" about heavy handed policing.
- I'm not defending the police actions (see above)
- Oh, I've thought about it alright and seen the impact the vaccines are having. Thousands of lives are being saved and the benefits far outweigh the low risks. You're as likely to get liver failure from a normal dose of paracetamol than you are a mild myocarditis and pericarditis from Covid faccines (about 1 in a million for each). You don't see too many protests about paracetamol. And besides, the risk of those heart problems is greater in those who have not had a vaccine who then catch covid. And as somewhere like Australia opens up more, more people will become exposed to the virus. It's a no brainer, but has been hijacked by people spreading misinformation on social media (and certain mainstream commentators).
So yeah, people who refuse to get vaccinated are a major problem that risks setting back covid recovery and will lead to more unnecessary deaths.
SwanseaBlue, I really don't wish to be rude but did you actually read my post to understand what I am saying, or have you just seen what you want to see? because you are missing the point.
"You've made most of that up in order to create something to get angry about."
No, I really haven't and if you care to actually look into it properly you will see what I have said is the truth.
"No vaccine (or any medicine) is 100% effective or 100% safe, and yes that is both morally and ethically ok as the alternative to not having it is worse for the individual and the community."
Read my post again. I was not talking about the vaccine itself, I said that threatening to terminate somebody's employment because they choose not to take an imperfect vaccine is unethical, which it is.
People are not 'refusing' to take one anyway, they are 'choosing' not to. There is a difference. You refuse an order, the last time I checked we had the basic right to choose our own medical treatments in the civilised world, we do not get orders from the state. The narrative that people are somehow selfish and hindering public health by exercising this right is not based on the evidence and is largely being fuelled by the media, irresponsible politicians and other people that have more than a slight touch of confirmation bias.
The risk from the vaccine in relation to the risk from Covid makes it a perfectly reasonable choice for many healthy people under the age of 50 to choose not to take it, or at least wait until we have longer term safety data from what is a brand new product. Even if you are older it is still a personal choice. If you don't subscribe to this notion then you are simply ignoring the facts.
Have you ever checked the yellow card reporting scheme for reported adverse reactions to the vaccine? Over a million reported side effects ( many quite serious ) and 1600 linked ( but not comprehensively proven ) deaths. We know that the vaccine is also not as effective as hoped in preventing transmission either, how can you mandate a medical product that has the potential to injure or kill and does not guarantee anything in terms of protection to you or others? You can't, it is unethical.
I am not bashing the vaccines. We needed them and the scientists that created them did an amazing job to get them to market in the timescale that they did. They are effective at doing what they were designed to do which is reduce the worst symptoms in the most vulnerable. I have taken the vaccine myself but I am not going to pretend it is perfect when it isn't and I am not going to judge other people for making a different choice.
The narrative around the covid vaccines is becoming like a religious dogma for some and any attempt to question them in any way is attacked with anger and cries of 'anti-vaxxer'. This is not healthy and it is certainly not science.
Meanwhile, in Australia ... update on 11:42 - Sep 24 by Lightworker
SwanseaBlue, I really don't wish to be rude but did you actually read my post to understand what I am saying, or have you just seen what you want to see? because you are missing the point.
"You've made most of that up in order to create something to get angry about."
No, I really haven't and if you care to actually look into it properly you will see what I have said is the truth.
"No vaccine (or any medicine) is 100% effective or 100% safe, and yes that is both morally and ethically ok as the alternative to not having it is worse for the individual and the community."
Read my post again. I was not talking about the vaccine itself, I said that threatening to terminate somebody's employment because they choose not to take an imperfect vaccine is unethical, which it is.
People are not 'refusing' to take one anyway, they are 'choosing' not to. There is a difference. You refuse an order, the last time I checked we had the basic right to choose our own medical treatments in the civilised world, we do not get orders from the state. The narrative that people are somehow selfish and hindering public health by exercising this right is not based on the evidence and is largely being fuelled by the media, irresponsible politicians and other people that have more than a slight touch of confirmation bias.
The risk from the vaccine in relation to the risk from Covid makes it a perfectly reasonable choice for many healthy people under the age of 50 to choose not to take it, or at least wait until we have longer term safety data from what is a brand new product. Even if you are older it is still a personal choice. If you don't subscribe to this notion then you are simply ignoring the facts.
Have you ever checked the yellow card reporting scheme for reported adverse reactions to the vaccine? Over a million reported side effects ( many quite serious ) and 1600 linked ( but not comprehensively proven ) deaths. We know that the vaccine is also not as effective as hoped in preventing transmission either, how can you mandate a medical product that has the potential to injure or kill and does not guarantee anything in terms of protection to you or others? You can't, it is unethical.
I am not bashing the vaccines. We needed them and the scientists that created them did an amazing job to get them to market in the timescale that they did. They are effective at doing what they were designed to do which is reduce the worst symptoms in the most vulnerable. I have taken the vaccine myself but I am not going to pretend it is perfect when it isn't and I am not going to judge other people for making a different choice.
The narrative around the covid vaccines is becoming like a religious dogma for some and any attempt to question them in any way is attacked with anger and cries of 'anti-vaxxer'. This is not healthy and it is certainly not science.
[Redacted]
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Meanwhile, in Australia ... update on 21:27 - Sep 24 with 920 views
Yes. It is unethical to impose a medical treatment on somebody that doesn't want it with threats or coercion. Period.
The scenario you outline is about my theoretical Nan is based on pure speculation. There will never be hard evidence that she picked it up from a specified individual. There is also no guarantee that she wont pick up the virus from a vaccinated individual because it has been proven that it can still be passed on regardless of vaccination status.
Are you aware that in August 2021 in the UK we had significantly more cases and deaths from covid than we did in 2020 when nobody was vaccinated? Don't believe me? Check out the official Government data, its all there. How do we explain this if the vaccines are preventing transmission?
It is nothing to do with not caring about others, I care deeply about others but we all face an element of risk regarding coming into contact with a pathogen going about our daily lives. We have never before blamed individuals for passing these on and causing death, and quite rightly because it is based on nothing but speculation.
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Meanwhile, in Australia ... update on 21:37 - Sep 24 with 911 views
Meanwhile, in Australia ... update on 21:27 - Sep 24 by Lightworker
Yes. It is unethical to impose a medical treatment on somebody that doesn't want it with threats or coercion. Period.
The scenario you outline is about my theoretical Nan is based on pure speculation. There will never be hard evidence that she picked it up from a specified individual. There is also no guarantee that she wont pick up the virus from a vaccinated individual because it has been proven that it can still be passed on regardless of vaccination status.
Are you aware that in August 2021 in the UK we had significantly more cases and deaths from covid than we did in 2020 when nobody was vaccinated? Don't believe me? Check out the official Government data, its all there. How do we explain this if the vaccines are preventing transmission?
It is nothing to do with not caring about others, I care deeply about others but we all face an element of risk regarding coming into contact with a pathogen going about our daily lives. We have never before blamed individuals for passing these on and causing death, and quite rightly because it is based on nothing but speculation.
"Are you aware that in August 2021 in the UK we had significantly more cases and deaths from covid than we did in 2020 when nobody was vaccinated? Don't believe me? Check out the official Government data, its all there. How do we explain this if the vaccines are preventing transmission?"
It's explained by the fact that we locked down from March to June 2020 and the rates were very low when we came out of that lockdown. The virus then had a very much lower base to spread than it did in the summer of 2021. by Aug 21 we have been out of lockdown far longer in 2021 and came out with rates much higher in 2021 than in 2020.
Your suggestion that the vaccine doesn't suppress the virus (both in transmission and in deaths) doesn't stand up to challenge.
btw - I agree absolutely with your opening paragraph. I am no fan of mandating vaccines and think we should concentrate on educating people rather than coercing them, which I think often feeds the anti-vax narratives.
I will just leave you with the latest from your brave Police officers in Melbourne. Do you really know what is going on out there? Are you sure?
Australia is in serious trouble. This is police brutality, all because she isn’t wearing a mask.
“There is no greater tyranny than that which is perpetrated under the shield of the law and in the name of justice†- Montesquieu#COVID19#Covidnsw pic.twitter.com/Dr4PANdgJU
Meanwhile, in Australia ... update on 21:37 - Sep 24 by bluelagos
"Are you aware that in August 2021 in the UK we had significantly more cases and deaths from covid than we did in 2020 when nobody was vaccinated? Don't believe me? Check out the official Government data, its all there. How do we explain this if the vaccines are preventing transmission?"
It's explained by the fact that we locked down from March to June 2020 and the rates were very low when we came out of that lockdown. The virus then had a very much lower base to spread than it did in the summer of 2021. by Aug 21 we have been out of lockdown far longer in 2021 and came out with rates much higher in 2021 than in 2020.
Your suggestion that the vaccine doesn't suppress the virus (both in transmission and in deaths) doesn't stand up to challenge.
btw - I agree absolutely with your opening paragraph. I am no fan of mandating vaccines and think we should concentrate on educating people rather than coercing them, which I think often feeds the anti-vax narratives.
There are so many opportunities for people to be educated and educate themselves; probably more than at any other time of our existence. Given the rise of conspiracies/denial, it’s obvious you can’t reach some people.
Quite where you draw the line on what needs to be mandated is certainly an interesting question.
Meanwhile, in Australia ... update on 21:37 - Sep 24 by Lightworker
I will just leave you with the latest from your brave Police officers in Melbourne. Do you really know what is going on out there? Are you sure?
Australia is in serious trouble. This is police brutality, all because she isn’t wearing a mask.
“There is no greater tyranny than that which is perpetrated under the shield of the law and in the name of justice†- Montesquieu#COVID19#Covidnsw pic.twitter.com/Dr4PANdgJU
Wow, that is simply an incredible take. So rather than call out the appalling actions of the officer your primary focus is on the twitter account and labelling them a conspiracy theorist. This is not a Twitter account I follow but a quick look through her tweets and I can see little evidence of 'conspiracy theories' being presented, perhaps you could point some out for us.?
There is zero evidence that the victim was 'spitting on the officer', you have literally just made that up to fit your agenda. There IS evidence of Police brutality and yet it is only an after thought for you to call this out ? You then invent another theoretical story blaming the victim of police brutality for a potential shortage of officers due to them being suspended for their actions. Amazing.
Admittedly we don't know the full context of the clip, but regardless of what the lady did or didn't do beforehand the treatment of her by a PUBLIC SERVANT is completely unacceptable.
Here is another clip from the streets of Melbourne. You are living in a Police state and a nation that has returned to being a prison island, all in the name of a virus which has a 99.9% survival rate for the vast majority of the population. If you really can't see that what is going on around you is extremely disproportionate then I truly feel sorry for you. Reality is going to bite hard at some point.
Longer version of same incident posted in previous tweet from Melbourne. Note the officer in the back using his weapon to beat the man on the ground.
Am struggling with some of your comments on this thread.
Policing is a really important part of a civilised democracy as opposed to a police state. One way we ensure policing is appropriate is by separating different roles. They collect evidence, arrest people, others prosecute, others determine guilt or innocence and then finally a judge decides what punishment is applicable.
What we are seeing in those videos, irrespective of who is posting them or their motives (and I accept some will be posted by anti-vaccers and/or nazi scum) is a police force adopting a far wider role. Individual and/or teams of police are dishing out what looks like punishment beatings. To do that, they have decided people are guilty and rather than arresting, charging and prosecuting them (as would be perfectly reasonable) they are instead applying a degree of violence to the individuals in what appears to be wholly over the top violent acts.
To support such violence is pretty mind blowing to be honest. To argue that said copper should go unpunished as there is a "bigger picture" ref helping some someone's nan - come on. Violent policing is violent policing.
By all means make the argument that those police are under pressure, political pressure to deal with protesters. And some protesters will no doubt be violent. But that is their job. To deal with violent protesters in an appropriate and proportionate manner.
You may not like the protesters (I don't) but that doesn't get away from how the police should conduct themselves. All your frustration at the protesters and the anti-vaccers doesn't for a minute justify some of those actions and never will.
I have seen violent policing in South America up close where protestors are attacked by thugs in uniforms and some of those pictures are very similar in their nature.
Meanwhile, in Australia ... update on 08:01 - Sep 25 by bluelagos
Am struggling with some of your comments on this thread.
Policing is a really important part of a civilised democracy as opposed to a police state. One way we ensure policing is appropriate is by separating different roles. They collect evidence, arrest people, others prosecute, others determine guilt or innocence and then finally a judge decides what punishment is applicable.
What we are seeing in those videos, irrespective of who is posting them or their motives (and I accept some will be posted by anti-vaccers and/or nazi scum) is a police force adopting a far wider role. Individual and/or teams of police are dishing out what looks like punishment beatings. To do that, they have decided people are guilty and rather than arresting, charging and prosecuting them (as would be perfectly reasonable) they are instead applying a degree of violence to the individuals in what appears to be wholly over the top violent acts.
To support such violence is pretty mind blowing to be honest. To argue that said copper should go unpunished as there is a "bigger picture" ref helping some someone's nan - come on. Violent policing is violent policing.
By all means make the argument that those police are under pressure, political pressure to deal with protesters. And some protesters will no doubt be violent. But that is their job. To deal with violent protesters in an appropriate and proportionate manner.
You may not like the protesters (I don't) but that doesn't get away from how the police should conduct themselves. All your frustration at the protesters and the anti-vaccers doesn't for a minute justify some of those actions and never will.
I have seen violent policing in South America up close where protestors are attacked by thugs in uniforms and some of those pictures are very similar in their nature.
Meanwhile, in Australia ... update on 07:42 - Sep 25 by Lightworker
Wow, that is simply an incredible take. So rather than call out the appalling actions of the officer your primary focus is on the twitter account and labelling them a conspiracy theorist. This is not a Twitter account I follow but a quick look through her tweets and I can see little evidence of 'conspiracy theories' being presented, perhaps you could point some out for us.?
There is zero evidence that the victim was 'spitting on the officer', you have literally just made that up to fit your agenda. There IS evidence of Police brutality and yet it is only an after thought for you to call this out ? You then invent another theoretical story blaming the victim of police brutality for a potential shortage of officers due to them being suspended for their actions. Amazing.
Admittedly we don't know the full context of the clip, but regardless of what the lady did or didn't do beforehand the treatment of her by a PUBLIC SERVANT is completely unacceptable.
Here is another clip from the streets of Melbourne. You are living in a Police state and a nation that has returned to being a prison island, all in the name of a virus which has a 99.9% survival rate for the vast majority of the population. If you really can't see that what is going on around you is extremely disproportionate then I truly feel sorry for you. Reality is going to bite hard at some point.
Longer version of same incident posted in previous tweet from Melbourne. Note the officer in the back using his weapon to beat the man on the ground.
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