| Harassment allegations - advice? 08:37 - Oct 19 with 9970 views | Zx1988 |
I've recently commenced a money claim in the Small Claims Court against a former client who has opted not to pay for my services, despite the existence of a contract etc., essentially a fairly straightforward affair, but that's by the by.
Yesterday I received a call from an officer at my local police station advising that the defendant has made a complaint of harassment against me, and we have agreed that he will visit me this evening to discuss her claims.
I do not believe that I have undertaken any conduct that constitutes harassment. I have sent the defendant three letters:
*The legally-required Letter Before Claim
*A letter containing a copy of the claim form sent to HMCTS along with an offer to settle
*A subsequent offer to settle (and confirmation of my intention to see the claim through) following the defendant's refusal to engage with the HMCTS-appointed arbitration service
I don't believe any of the above conduct is unreasonable in the context of an ongoing legal case, and I would suggest that the lack of unreasonableness is sufficient to meet the following defence:
That in the particular circumstance the purported action is held to be reasonable.
I guess the counter-point is that this is the first time I have been involved with the police as a suspect and, sitting on this overnight, I'm worried that it might not go as simply as I'm hoping. I know that this is simply an attempt by the defendant to try and frustrate the process and intimidate me into dropping my claim, but on the other side I know that the police tend to have a bit of a thing about harassment, especially when it's alleged to have been committed by a man against a woman.
Can anyone offer me any thoughts as to what I should expect?
Part of me is inclined to believe that the officer will try to offer me a First Harassment Warning in that it will allow him to easily tie the matter up, and I'll be let off with no real action, but given that an FHW can be disclosed by an enhanced DBS check, and (as is my understanding) I've done nothing wrong, I don't want to feel coerced into accepting this outcome. What is likely to happen if an FHW is offered and refused?
Thanks! |  |
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| Harassment allegations - advice? on 11:04 - Oct 19 with 1137 views | TooManyCooks |
| Harassment allegations - advice? on 10:58 - Oct 19 by Herbivore |
Can you provide a source for that? My understanding is that the right to free legal advice comes when you are under caution and I can't find anything that contradicts that. [Post edited 19 Oct 2021 11:02]
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Literally thousands, probably hundreds of thousands, though rather than furnish you with the information, I think you will gain more by investing your own time and resources in a journey of discovery. | |
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| Harassment allegations - advice? on 11:05 - Oct 19 with 1130 views | chicoazul |
| Harassment allegations - advice? on 10:58 - Oct 19 by Herbivore |
Can you provide a source for that? My understanding is that the right to free legal advice comes when you are under caution and I can't find anything that contradicts that. [Post edited 19 Oct 2021 11:02]
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OP has said he has asked for the DS to be present. Can OP confirm the police have agreed to this? |  |
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| Harassment allegations - advice? on 11:06 - Oct 19 with 1122 views | Herbivore |
| Harassment allegations - advice? on 11:04 - Oct 19 by TooManyCooks |
Literally thousands, probably hundreds of thousands, though rather than furnish you with the information, I think you will gain more by investing your own time and resources in a journey of discovery. |
You could have just said no, mate. |  |
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| Harassment allegations - advice? on 11:07 - Oct 19 with 1118 views | Herbivore |
| Harassment allegations - advice? on 11:05 - Oct 19 by chicoazul |
OP has said he has asked for the DS to be present. Can OP confirm the police have agreed to this? |
And they may now treat it as an interview under caution, given it will be at the station with a solicitor present anyway. | |
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| Harassment allegations - advice? on 11:10 - Oct 19 with 1091 views | Herbivore |
From that article: "The law provides for the use of a solicitor during an interview under caution as an absolute right". Which is precisely my point. | |
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| Harassment allegations - advice? on 11:11 - Oct 19 with 1087 views | chicoazul |
That’s marketing not the definitive legal position. | |
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| Harassment allegations - advice? on 11:17 - Oct 19 with 1071 views | TooManyCooks |
| Harassment allegations - advice? on 11:10 - Oct 19 by Herbivore |
From that article: "The law provides for the use of a solicitor during an interview under caution as an absolute right". Which is precisely my point. |
Herbs, you only know what you've Googled (which obviously wasn't a good source) whereas I have EXTENSIVE, DIRECT experience in this area and can categorically assure you that what I've said is correct.
Up to you, if you wish to dispute, but you're wrong. | |
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| Harassment allegations - advice? on 11:18 - Oct 19 with 1068 views | Herbivore |
| Harassment allegations - advice? on 11:11 - Oct 19 by chicoazul |
That’s marketing not the definitive legal position. |
And where it mentions legal rights, it specifically refers to interview under caution. The rights and wrongs of having a solicitor present at any contact with the police are open to debate of course and I respect the differing views on that subject. I personally would be okay with having an informal conversation with them in my home, others wouldn't, and I understand that. I think it's important to be clear though about the circumstances under which free legal advice is possible and that's what I'm hoping to clarify. | |
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| Harassment allegations - advice? on 11:21 - Oct 19 with 1059 views | Ryorry |
"History shows many an innocent person has been convicted based upon a false “confession” ".
As in 'Code of a Killer' (2/2 shown on ITV last night) - drama based on true cases of 1983-87, when a 17 yr-old strangely confessed to 2 murders he hadn't committed & would have received 2 life sentences had police not decided to try and confirm his confession with the then brand new & completely untried DNA-testing just discovered by Sir Alec Jeffreys.
The test proved the 17-yr old could not have committed the murders, and the real killer (Colin Pitchfork) was also only positively identified via DNA testing - the first time that was used in the criminal justice system. |  |
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| Harassment allegations - advice? on 11:21 - Oct 19 with 1060 views | Herbivore |
| Harassment allegations - advice? on 11:17 - Oct 19 by TooManyCooks |
Herbs, you only know what you've Googled (which obviously wasn't a good source) whereas I have EXTENSIVE, DIRECT experience in this area and can categorically assure you that what I've said is correct.
Up to you, if you wish to dispute, but you're wrong. |
Is it really that hard for you to provide a source then, given that you are definitively correct it shouldn't be too hard? None of us know what your credentials are, I'm happy to be proven wrong but some actual evidence that what you're saying is correct would be useful. That would be a lot more helpful than putting certain words in caps to try and assure us of your credibility. [Post edited 19 Oct 2021 11:22]
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| Harassment allegations - advice? on 11:32 - Oct 19 with 1022 views | TooManyCooks |
| Harassment allegations - advice? on 11:21 - Oct 19 by Herbivore |
Is it really that hard for you to provide a source then, given that you are definitively correct it shouldn't be too hard? None of us know what your credentials are, I'm happy to be proven wrong but some actual evidence that what you're saying is correct would be useful. That would be a lot more helpful than putting certain words in caps to try and assure us of your credibility. [Post edited 19 Oct 2021 11:22]
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It's actually not that easy supplying anything to you that you will accept, other than what I have here in books, but I am not about to go photocopying legal manuals.
Perhaps try this from The Law Society, not a bad place for basic Law Q&A to the public.
https://www.lawsociety.org.uk/en/public/for-public-visitors/common-legal-issues/ | |
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| Harassment allegations - advice? on 11:38 - Oct 19 with 999 views | TooManyCooks |
| Harassment allegations - advice? on 11:18 - Oct 19 by Herbivore |
And where it mentions legal rights, it specifically refers to interview under caution. The rights and wrongs of having a solicitor present at any contact with the police are open to debate of course and I respect the differing views on that subject. I personally would be okay with having an informal conversation with them in my home, others wouldn't, and I understand that. I think it's important to be clear though about the circumstances under which free legal advice is possible and that's what I'm hoping to clarify. |
"informal conversation" really?? There's no such thing as an informal conversation when you are suspected of a criminal offence and "asked" by the Police to attend an interview, everything is recorded, you are a suspect and are being questioned, the only difference between this and an interview under caution, is that you are not under arrest, everything else is the same and you could well find yourself arrested and charged should you say something incriminating during that "informal conversation".
The naivety and lack of awareness of even the most basic legal rights showed on some of the posts on this thread, is staggering. | |
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| Harassment allegations - advice? on 11:53 - Oct 19 with 972 views | Herbivore |
According to this guidance (see para 21) the kind of interview referred to in the advice you provided would be an interview under caution: https://www.hse.gov.uk/enforce/enforcementguide/investigation/witness-questionin
Clearly there's a case that for protection of all parties that when you have been accused of something you should only be spoken to under caution but it doesn't seem clear that an informal chat without being under caution qualifies you for free legal advice. [Post edited 19 Oct 2021 12:19]
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| Harassment allegations - advice? on 11:55 - Oct 19 with 962 views | Herbivore |
| Harassment allegations - advice? on 11:38 - Oct 19 by TooManyCooks |
"informal conversation" really?? There's no such thing as an informal conversation when you are suspected of a criminal offence and "asked" by the Police to attend an interview, everything is recorded, you are a suspect and are being questioned, the only difference between this and an interview under caution, is that you are not under arrest, everything else is the same and you could well find yourself arrested and charged should you say something incriminating during that "informal conversation".
The naivety and lack of awareness of even the most basic legal rights showed on some of the posts on this thread, is staggering. |
You don't have to be arrested to be interviewed under caution and if you say something when not under caution it is not admissible as evidence. Are you sure you're an expert on this? Because some of what you're saying isn't correct. [Post edited 19 Oct 2021 12:08]
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| Harassment allegations - advice? on 12:11 - Oct 19 with 930 views | TooManyCooks |
| Harassment allegations - advice? on 11:55 - Oct 19 by Herbivore |
You don't have to be arrested to be interviewed under caution and if you say something when not under caution it is not admissible as evidence. Are you sure you're an expert on this? Because some of what you're saying isn't correct. [Post edited 19 Oct 2021 12:08]
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That's my mistake, I did not mean to put "under caution" (it's on my bloody brain now thanks to you) I simply meant to point out that the interview is no different, whether you've been arrested, or not, the same protocols apply, it's just the police way of making you more relaxed and thinking you don't need to be represented, it's all a bit of a laugh, nothing serious, until they arrest and charge you following the informal chat over a cup of tea with the nice officer. | |
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| Harassment allegations - advice? on 12:14 - Oct 19 with 926 views | TooManyCooks |
| Harassment allegations - advice? on 11:53 - Oct 19 by Herbivore |
According to this guidance (see para 21) the kind of interview referred to in the advice you provided would be an interview under caution: https://www.hse.gov.uk/enforce/enforcementguide/investigation/witness-questionin
Clearly there's a case that for protection of all parties that when you have been accused of something you should only be spoken to under caution but it doesn't seem clear that an informal chat without being under caution qualifies you for free legal advice. [Post edited 19 Oct 2021 12:19]
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Like I said before, you simply won't accept being wrong, or admit to it, despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
I provide you with statements of fact from the Independent body of Solicitors for England and Wales and you respond, refuting their statements, with evidence, via a broken link, to an HSE enforcement guide article, you couldn't make it up, lol.
I've done enough banging my head against a brick wall for one morning, you carry on talking to yourself if you wish, I'm off to do some work, ta ta. | |
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| Harassment allegations - advice? on 12:15 - Oct 19 with 924 views | Herbivore |
| Harassment allegations - advice? on 12:11 - Oct 19 by TooManyCooks |
That's my mistake, I did not mean to put "under caution" (it's on my bloody brain now thanks to you) I simply meant to point out that the interview is no different, whether you've been arrested, or not, the same protocols apply, it's just the police way of making you more relaxed and thinking you don't need to be represented, it's all a bit of a laugh, nothing serious, until they arrest and charge you following the informal chat over a cup of tea with the nice officer. |
In that case I'm not even sure we disagree. I know that the police can try to obfuscate and make you feel like it's just a chat when actually it is a formal interview, but if they caution you - which they have to if they're recording the conversation and want to use it as evidence down the line - then absolutely you should request the duty solicitor that you're entitled to. | |
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| Harassment allegations - advice? on 12:18 - Oct 19 with 919 views | Herbivore |
| Harassment allegations - advice? on 12:14 - Oct 19 by TooManyCooks |
Like I said before, you simply won't accept being wrong, or admit to it, despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
I provide you with statements of fact from the Independent body of Solicitors for England and Wales and you respond, refuting their statements, with evidence, via a broken link, to an HSE enforcement guide article, you couldn't make it up, lol.
I've done enough banging my head against a brick wall for one morning, you carry on talking to yourself if you wish, I'm off to do some work, ta ta. |
Bit of an overreaction? I've had a look at PACE and it only discusses rights to free legal advice in the context of interview under caution (whether voluntary or under arrest) and the HSE guidance is similarly based on PACE. You have provided one link, which is somewhat ambiguous in terms of what is meant by an 'interview'. I'd accept your pompous tone if you hadn't got various other things wrong - such as getting interview under caution and being under arrest mixed up - but frankly it looks to me like you're masquerading as an expert and that's potentially dangerous. [Post edited 19 Oct 2021 12:20]
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| Harassment allegations - advice? on 12:45 - Oct 19 with 882 views | chicoazul |
OP please bear in mind none of us are offering advice in a formal position, we’re all just anon idiots on a message board, you must seek formal independent advice if you feel you need it. | |
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| Harassment allegations - advice? on 12:47 - Oct 19 with 872 views | Herbivore |
| Harassment allegations - advice? on 12:45 - Oct 19 by chicoazul |
OP please bear in mind none of us are offering advice in a formal position, we’re all just anon idiots on a message board, you must seek formal independent advice if you feel you need it. |
Absolutely, don't listen to me and don't listen to this TooManyCooks chancer either. Definitely ignore Chico. | |
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| Harassment allegations - advice? on 12:55 - Oct 19 with 859 views | PassionNotAnger |
| Harassment allegations - advice? on 12:14 - Oct 19 by TooManyCooks |
Like I said before, you simply won't accept being wrong, or admit to it, despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
I provide you with statements of fact from the Independent body of Solicitors for England and Wales and you respond, refuting their statements, with evidence, via a broken link, to an HSE enforcement guide article, you couldn't make it up, lol.
I've done enough banging my head against a brick wall for one morning, you carry on talking to yourself if you wish, I'm off to do some work, ta ta. |
Hmm - from the outside you appear like a little scrote who's been arrested more times than Ipswich have appointed a manager called Paul, and has now determined themselves to be a legal expert as they "know my rights bruv" and makes those in the profession laugh heartily when they repeatedly demonstrate their incompetence and lack of professional knowledge and understanding.
Alternatively you might be a pompous educated professional who knows their stuff but is unable to communicate effectively and lacks self-awareness but is too busy to actually make their point using relevant and current information.
Wonder which you are?? [Post edited 19 Oct 2021 13:53]
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| Harassment allegations - advice? on 12:56 - Oct 19 with 861 views | PrideOfTheEast |
Never engage with the police without legal representation would be my advice. | | | |
| Harassment allegations - advice? on 13:34 - Oct 19 with 805 views | PassionNotAnger |
| Harassment allegations - advice? on 12:56 - Oct 19 by PrideOfTheEast |
Never engage with the police without legal representation would be my advice. |
or alternatively - if you have nothing to hide or fear then do your best to support those who's job is primarily to preserve life and protect property eh?
For every awful example of Police incompetence or misconduct (and 1 is still too many) there are thousands of examples where they help and provide support to those in need. Unfortunately the high profile misconduct and chav voices attract more attention than the grateful many who have benefited from Police support for various reasons.
Those with the most negative perception of policing are generally those who have been in and around criminal activity - they probably see that as a coincidence. | | | |
| Harassment allegations - advice? on 14:08 - Oct 19 with 756 views | ZXBlue |
| Harassment allegations - advice? on 13:34 - Oct 19 by PassionNotAnger |
or alternatively - if you have nothing to hide or fear then do your best to support those who's job is primarily to preserve life and protect property eh?
For every awful example of Police incompetence or misconduct (and 1 is still too many) there are thousands of examples where they help and provide support to those in need. Unfortunately the high profile misconduct and chav voices attract more attention than the grateful many who have benefited from Police support for various reasons.
Those with the most negative perception of policing are generally those who have been in and around criminal activity - they probably see that as a coincidence. |
Spot on.
Is it any wonder that police become cynical and are prone to pre-forming views on things when they meet such hostility and subterfuge over the simplest matter which could be resolved in minutes. | | | |
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