| ITV comments on San Marino 21:33 - Nov 15 with 3434 views | Zx1988 |
ITV team going big tonight on the "San Marino shouldn't even be allowed to enter the qualifiers" argument.
Can't agree with that at all. One of the joys/beauties of football is that it's a game for everyone. San Marino is a country with a national team and, regardless of their quality, they shouldn't be told that they're not good enough to play against certain sides.
Despite the scoreline, this is a night (alongside their trip to Wembley) that none of the Sammarinese players will ever forget, or would want to be deprived of. |  |
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| ITV comments on San Marino on 12:00 - Nov 16 with 552 views | vilanovablue |
Whilst I do agree with the fact that teams would get excluded from big games which is unfortunate clogging the international calendar with redundant games helps nobody. The league of nations is helping and as they do in the American region I am not against pre-qualifying with maybe one or 2 teams progressing to the group stage so that they aren't excluded we just don't have a dozen or so teams that patently can't compete. |  | | |
| ITV comments on San Marino on 13:02 - Nov 16 with 516 views | stonojnr |
| ITV comments on San Marino on 11:18 - Nov 16 by Herbivore |
If you're not using recent results then it becomes somewhat arbitrary, doesn't it? For example, Glassers mentioned Luxembourg as a minnow but they are doing pretty well in qualifying currently. Would it be fair to them to consider them minnows because historically they've struggled whilst allowing worse teams to go straight through to qualifying because they are considered 'bigger'?
Personally I think the current system is probably the least bad option. It's not ideal but the logistics of having two tiers of qualifying look like a nightmare and I'm not sure it'd improve the situation of the lesser sides much at all. It might take a radical rethink of how qualifying works to accommodate a different system and is it really worth it to solve what isn't exactly a massive problem? [Post edited 16 Nov 2021 11:20]
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FIFA do have a ranking system based on recent results, its what they use to seed the groups, so why cant UEFA simply use that to start with to put the lowest ranked teams into a set of pre qualifiers before the group stages.
Id just reduce the number of WC qualifier groups down, weve gone from having 7 groups of 4 teams, to 9 to 10 groups of 5 or 6 teams, and it really isnt making the games look good, certainly isnt making qualification any better a system.
Its not even helping the higher ranked teams, England have comfortably won this group, yet we know full well as soon as they meet a Portugal, Italy, Spain, or maybe a Poland or Croatia/Czech Republic in the finals, we are going to struggle, and not score 4 goals per game on average.
San Marino shipped 46 goals in just 10 games. theyve gained nothing from this qualification process, they are ranked bottom of all teams in UEFA and 210th in the world which remarkably enough is bottom in the world too.
I actually thought the way the T20 world cup worked with its pre qualifiers showed how well that kind of thing worked, the lower ranked teams were well matched and the games were exciting and interesting as a result with the prize was to play against the much higher ranked teams certainly enough to spur them on. We werent getting England bowling teams out for village cricket scores because that proves nothing and doesnt help either team progress. | | | |
| ITV comments on San Marino on 13:13 - Nov 16 with 504 views | Clapham_Junction |
| ITV comments on San Marino on 11:23 - Nov 16 by itfcjoe |
I just don't see any particular issue with only having the best of the teams in the main qualifying group, adding a level of competiton for the worse teams to qualify may help them improve when there is a big carrot at the end if they can beat someone half decent.
UEFA has to find a way of getting 55 countries down to 13 qualifiers - the way it is done is so convuluted with the play offs at the end, with Nations League feeding into it etc is just rubbish.
The Nations League is a much better competition, and has seen incredible scenes even in the Pot D matches where you see Gibraltar win their first ever games, and Malta and the Faroes battle it out for promotion. Football should be a meritocracy in this way. |
Another issue with pre-qualifying is that it leaves the teams that didn't qualify with a massive hole in their schedules - which means they either don't play, or end up with most of their matches being friendlies, which isn't really going to help with their development. In some confederations, some teams get just two competitive matches each international tournament window before they're knocked out.
Agree that the current convoluted method is rubbish - perhaps just take out the Nations League aspect of it.
The meritocracy for me is the fact that only the top teams qualify for the main tournament; I don't see the need to implement restrictions at the qualifying phase. [Post edited 16 Nov 2021 13:14]
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| ITV comments on San Marino on 13:22 - Nov 16 with 489 views | Herbivore |
| ITV comments on San Marino on 13:02 - Nov 16 by stonojnr |
FIFA do have a ranking system based on recent results, its what they use to seed the groups, so why cant UEFA simply use that to start with to put the lowest ranked teams into a set of pre qualifiers before the group stages.
Id just reduce the number of WC qualifier groups down, weve gone from having 7 groups of 4 teams, to 9 to 10 groups of 5 or 6 teams, and it really isnt making the games look good, certainly isnt making qualification any better a system.
Its not even helping the higher ranked teams, England have comfortably won this group, yet we know full well as soon as they meet a Portugal, Italy, Spain, or maybe a Poland or Croatia/Czech Republic in the finals, we are going to struggle, and not score 4 goals per game on average.
San Marino shipped 46 goals in just 10 games. theyve gained nothing from this qualification process, they are ranked bottom of all teams in UEFA and 210th in the world which remarkably enough is bottom in the world too.
I actually thought the way the T20 world cup worked with its pre qualifiers showed how well that kind of thing worked, the lower ranked teams were well matched and the games were exciting and interesting as a result with the prize was to play against the much higher ranked teams certainly enough to spur them on. We werent getting England bowling teams out for village cricket scores because that proves nothing and doesnt help either team progress. |
So where are you fitting this pre-qualifying into the international calendar and what are the teams who don't make it through meant to do for the following 2 years? If the current system isn't helping I don't think throwing most of the lesser nations on to the scrapheap for 2 years will really help them much either. It's not a bad idea, I'm just not convinced it's that workable in practice. |  |
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| ITV comments on San Marino on 13:34 - Nov 16 with 460 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| ITV comments on San Marino on 13:22 - Nov 16 by Herbivore |
So where are you fitting this pre-qualifying into the international calendar and what are the teams who don't make it through meant to do for the following 2 years? If the current system isn't helping I don't think throwing most of the lesser nations on to the scrapheap for 2 years will really help them much either. It's not a bad idea, I'm just not convinced it's that workable in practice. |
Not sure logistics is an issue really, the main qualifying would be shorter with this type of proposal so pre-qualifying could just replace the first 3/4 rounds. Or alternatively alongside a major tournament if structured in a way that means teams qualifying for the latest tournament are deemed to have qualified for the main qualifying
However none of that solves your other point about what teams would do outside of this - which also applies to the big nations that would have less competitive matches too. Some may argue that England playing friendlies against larger nations would be more beneficial but I’m not convinced that’s true given what squads would likely be used
Not to mention that it’s an elitist cr*p idea borne from a mentality that England* shouldn’t have to bother playing lesser teams. When in reality we’re talking about a very small handful of teams that have consistently been hopeless, and if you rewind 10 years one of those that would have been considered to be in that bracket subsequently knocked us out of a major tournament
I just don’t really see who it is helping tbh. Big teams won’t get more good games, minnows will miss the chance to cause the odd upset and a number of teams inbetween will have a harder route to qualifying for a tournament
*focusing on England as no idea what views on this are on the continent |  |
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| ITV comments on San Marino on 13:43 - Nov 16 with 471 views | itfcjoe |
| ITV comments on San Marino on 13:34 - Nov 16 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
Not sure logistics is an issue really, the main qualifying would be shorter with this type of proposal so pre-qualifying could just replace the first 3/4 rounds. Or alternatively alongside a major tournament if structured in a way that means teams qualifying for the latest tournament are deemed to have qualified for the main qualifying
However none of that solves your other point about what teams would do outside of this - which also applies to the big nations that would have less competitive matches too. Some may argue that England playing friendlies against larger nations would be more beneficial but I’m not convinced that’s true given what squads would likely be used
Not to mention that it’s an elitist cr*p idea borne from a mentality that England* shouldn’t have to bother playing lesser teams. When in reality we’re talking about a very small handful of teams that have consistently been hopeless, and if you rewind 10 years one of those that would have been considered to be in that bracket subsequently knocked us out of a major tournament
I just don’t really see who it is helping tbh. Big teams won’t get more good games, minnows will miss the chance to cause the odd upset and a number of teams inbetween will have a harder route to qualifying for a tournament
*focusing on England as no idea what views on this are on the continent |
I guess it goes down to what do you think is better - the Nations League, or Qualifying.
And if it is the NL, then why not try and take more form that format into the other |  |
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| ITV comments on San Marino on 13:49 - Nov 16 with 457 views | Herbivore |
| ITV comments on San Marino on 13:43 - Nov 16 by itfcjoe |
I guess it goes down to what do you think is better - the Nations League, or Qualifying.
And if it is the NL, then why not try and take more form that format into the other |
I'm not sure how the Nations League format could be shaped to work as a means to determine all qualifying places though, not without essentially allocating qualifying places to the top nations purely on the basis of their ranking. | |
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| ITV comments on San Marino on 13:57 - Nov 16 with 449 views | franz_tyson |
| ITV comments on San Marino on 13:34 - Nov 16 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
Not sure logistics is an issue really, the main qualifying would be shorter with this type of proposal so pre-qualifying could just replace the first 3/4 rounds. Or alternatively alongside a major tournament if structured in a way that means teams qualifying for the latest tournament are deemed to have qualified for the main qualifying
However none of that solves your other point about what teams would do outside of this - which also applies to the big nations that would have less competitive matches too. Some may argue that England playing friendlies against larger nations would be more beneficial but I’m not convinced that’s true given what squads would likely be used
Not to mention that it’s an elitist cr*p idea borne from a mentality that England* shouldn’t have to bother playing lesser teams. When in reality we’re talking about a very small handful of teams that have consistently been hopeless, and if you rewind 10 years one of those that would have been considered to be in that bracket subsequently knocked us out of a major tournament
I just don’t really see who it is helping tbh. Big teams won’t get more good games, minnows will miss the chance to cause the odd upset and a number of teams inbetween will have a harder route to qualifying for a tournament
*focusing on England as no idea what views on this are on the continent |
If you’re talking about Iceland being a minnow nation made good, then how do you know it’s all down to them competing in qualifying matches.?
They’ve obviously invested resources at domestic level and training youngsters throughout the years, culminating in more and more home-grown Icelandic youngsters going to major leagues in Europe and developing there. Heard of Herman Hreiderson and all the other Icelandic players who made a name for themselves at club level. What do you think they just learnt so much about being smashed every game and their national side evolved from that experience?
They’ve obviously ploughed money into development of their youngsters at grass-roots level and it worked. Bit of a stretch to start crying elitism when there’s a sensible argument going around what is best for football and how these smaller countries can also develop.
Probably these countries would be better of investing at grass roots level - but I guess impoverished countries like San Marino can’t afford that. | | | |
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| ITV comments on San Marino on 13:58 - Nov 16 with 429 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| ITV comments on San Marino on 13:43 - Nov 16 by itfcjoe |
I guess it goes down to what do you think is better - the Nations League, or Qualifying.
And if it is the NL, then why not try and take more form that format into the other |
Do I think an actual tournament is better than qualification for a tournament? Surely the correct comparison there is whether you think the Nations League is better than the World Cup, or perhaps more pertinently the Euros as they’re both UEFA competitions
To give you an answer though I think they’re different, which isn’t a bad thing | |
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| ITV comments on San Marino on 14:04 - Nov 16 with 421 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| ITV comments on San Marino on 13:57 - Nov 16 by franz_tyson |
If you’re talking about Iceland being a minnow nation made good, then how do you know it’s all down to them competing in qualifying matches.?
They’ve obviously invested resources at domestic level and training youngsters throughout the years, culminating in more and more home-grown Icelandic youngsters going to major leagues in Europe and developing there. Heard of Herman Hreiderson and all the other Icelandic players who made a name for themselves at club level. What do you think they just learnt so much about being smashed every game and their national side evolved from that experience?
They’ve obviously ploughed money into development of their youngsters at grass-roots level and it worked. Bit of a stretch to start crying elitism when there’s a sensible argument going around what is best for football and how these smaller countries can also develop.
Probably these countries would be better of investing at grass roots level - but I guess impoverished countries like San Marino can’t afford that. |
I don’t disagree with any of that but that isn’t really relevant to the point I’m making there
If people had their way 10 years ago then Iceland would have been buried as a minnow that weren’t worthy of playing England and their route to qualifying would be that much longer and harder. Instead, they got better - and whilst that was no doubt primarily down to things they did off the field, the opportunity to qualify on a relatively equal footing certainly wasn’t a hindrance to them developing and giving the perceived bigger nations a bloody nose at a major tournament | |
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| ITV comments on San Marino on 14:16 - Nov 16 with 428 views | franz_tyson |
| ITV comments on San Marino on 14:04 - Nov 16 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
I don’t disagree with any of that but that isn’t really relevant to the point I’m making there
If people had their way 10 years ago then Iceland would have been buried as a minnow that weren’t worthy of playing England and their route to qualifying would be that much longer and harder. Instead, they got better - and whilst that was no doubt primarily down to things they did off the field, the opportunity to qualify on a relatively equal footing certainly wasn’t a hindrance to them developing and giving the perceived bigger nations a bloody nose at a major tournament |
Not sure anyone’s saying close the door on any country.
No-ones closed the door on us to play in the PL. We’ve got to earn the right to play PL teams.
There’s bound to be some league or qualifying system which would allow the better of the minnows to progress to play the better teams at the qualifying stages.
I read somewhere that San Marino players would love playing against like England and they would never forget that.experience But these same players will probably play every two years in qualifying games and they’re probably veterans of losing to the big nations. It would probably get a bit boring and disheartening getting drubbed by so many big nations every two years.
If they won through a competitive pre-qualifying round or league and earned the right to play a big nation I’d say that would be far more rewarding. And develop the football more. | | | |
| ITV comments on San Marino on 14:21 - Nov 16 with 422 views | Herbivore |
| ITV comments on San Marino on 14:16 - Nov 16 by franz_tyson |
Not sure anyone’s saying close the door on any country.
No-ones closed the door on us to play in the PL. We’ve got to earn the right to play PL teams.
There’s bound to be some league or qualifying system which would allow the better of the minnows to progress to play the better teams at the qualifying stages.
I read somewhere that San Marino players would love playing against like England and they would never forget that.experience But these same players will probably play every two years in qualifying games and they’re probably veterans of losing to the big nations. It would probably get a bit boring and disheartening getting drubbed by so many big nations every two years.
If they won through a competitive pre-qualifying round or league and earned the right to play a big nation I’d say that would be far more rewarding. And develop the football more. |
But what happens to the majority of smaller nations who don't get through pre-qualifying? How are they going to improve when they won't have any competetive football for 2 years at a time? | |
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| ITV comments on San Marino on 14:33 - Nov 16 with 408 views | franz_tyson |
| ITV comments on San Marino on 14:21 - Nov 16 by Herbivore |
But what happens to the majority of smaller nations who don't get through pre-qualifying? How are they going to improve when they won't have any competetive football for 2 years at a time? |
Surely they can play each other in a league system.
Or even a minnow European or World Cup.
Looking at us, we’ve been to many World Cups and European championships, but I don’t think that experience has developed us that much. It’s because we’re now developing more skilful and technically better players at domestic level. The driver is the players at club level.
I think that the way to over-achieve and beat the trend for small nations is to promote their game at grass-root level and get as many players in the top leagues. | | | |
| ITV comments on San Marino on 14:44 - Nov 16 with 395 views | Herbivore |
| ITV comments on San Marino on 14:33 - Nov 16 by franz_tyson |
Surely they can play each other in a league system.
Or even a minnow European or World Cup.
Looking at us, we’ve been to many World Cups and European championships, but I don’t think that experience has developed us that much. It’s because we’re now developing more skilful and technically better players at domestic level. The driver is the players at club level.
I think that the way to over-achieve and beat the trend for small nations is to promote their game at grass-root level and get as many players in the top leagues. |
That sounds like basically a permanent two tier system where the smaller nations have little chance of even playing the bigger nations, let alone competing to get to a major tournament. It doesn't seem like a very fair system to me. I agree that ultimately these nations need better investment at grassroots, although for the likes of San Marino where the population is tiny that won't necessarily make them much more competitive. And by excluding them you're basically saying to them as a country that they matter less than other countries and don't have the right to compete with them. I'm not sure I'm down with that. | |
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| ITV comments on San Marino on 15:02 - Nov 16 with 385 views | franz_tyson |
| ITV comments on San Marino on 14:44 - Nov 16 by Herbivore |
That sounds like basically a permanent two tier system where the smaller nations have little chance of even playing the bigger nations, let alone competing to get to a major tournament. It doesn't seem like a very fair system to me. I agree that ultimately these nations need better investment at grassroots, although for the likes of San Marino where the population is tiny that won't necessarily make them much more competitive. And by excluding them you're basically saying to them as a country that they matter less than other countries and don't have the right to compete with them. I'm not sure I'm down with that. |
Swings and roundabouts. San Marino have got a Grand Prix, other bigger countries don’t.
One of the richest countries in the world and if football was such a priority they could always become part of Italy and rejoice in their success.
Sadly, there are countries that will never make it and they’re not likely to improve. And maybe they’re only really a country based on them being a tax haven or some other weird quirk in history.
On the other hand, I’d like to see the hardy fish folk of the Faroes follow in Iceland’s relative success. | | | |
| ITV comments on San Marino on 15:22 - Nov 16 with 363 views | Herbivore |
| ITV comments on San Marino on 15:02 - Nov 16 by franz_tyson |
Swings and roundabouts. San Marino have got a Grand Prix, other bigger countries don’t.
One of the richest countries in the world and if football was such a priority they could always become part of Italy and rejoice in their success.
Sadly, there are countries that will never make it and they’re not likely to improve. And maybe they’re only really a country based on them being a tax haven or some other weird quirk in history.
On the other hand, I’d like to see the hardy fish folk of the Faroes follow in Iceland’s relative success. |
That's a hot take. | |
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| ITV comments on San Marino on 16:57 - Nov 16 with 340 views | Radlett_blue |
| ITV comments on San Marino on 14:44 - Nov 16 by Herbivore |
That sounds like basically a permanent two tier system where the smaller nations have little chance of even playing the bigger nations, let alone competing to get to a major tournament. It doesn't seem like a very fair system to me. I agree that ultimately these nations need better investment at grassroots, although for the likes of San Marino where the population is tiny that won't necessarily make them much more competitive. And by excluding them you're basically saying to them as a country that they matter less than other countries and don't have the right to compete with them. I'm not sure I'm down with that. |
As another poster said, Witham Town don't have the right to play at Old Trafford regularly. The whole international calendar is completely bloated, with larger tournament finals & more tournaments, filling every summer. This is largely about the battle for control of the game between FIFA, UEFA & the big European clubs. None of these groups are particularly likeable as the clubs want to grab as much of the money as possible, while the corrupt FIFA & UEFA bureaucrats want to stay in power so the keep pandering to the tiny countries with the silly one country, one vote system. Both the World Cup & Euros should be slimmed down & with a much simpler, smaller qualification process, but with the corruption at the top, that's never going to happen. So we will have more & more international fixtures, including the pointless mis-matches such as England v San Marino. |  |
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| ITV comments on San Marino on 17:01 - Nov 16 with 332 views | DanTheMan |
| ITV comments on San Marino on 15:02 - Nov 16 by franz_tyson |
Swings and roundabouts. San Marino have got a Grand Prix, other bigger countries don’t.
One of the richest countries in the world and if football was such a priority they could always become part of Italy and rejoice in their success.
Sadly, there are countries that will never make it and they’re not likely to improve. And maybe they’re only really a country based on them being a tax haven or some other weird quirk in history.
On the other hand, I’d like to see the hardy fish folk of the Faroes follow in Iceland’s relative success. |
You say quirk of history but they've been their own state longer than most other countries have even been around. |  |
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| ITV comments on San Marino on 17:05 - Nov 16 with 327 views | tractordownsouth |
I think the current international calendar is a good compromise. San Marino can still play England in the World Cup/Euros qualifiers, but the Nations League means that while England play Spain, San Marino have a more winnable game against Gibraltar. |  |
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| ITV comments on San Marino on 17:06 - Nov 16 with 326 views | footers |
| ITV comments on San Marino on 17:01 - Nov 16 by DanTheMan |
You say quirk of history but they've been their own state longer than most other countries have even been around. |
Especially these new-fangled countries like Germany, Italy and the States. Pfff. They are but mere pups.
Actually, I think facters still has his programme for when Mesopotamia won the World Cup. |  |
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| ITV comments on San Marino on 17:10 - Nov 16 with 319 views | Herbivore |
| ITV comments on San Marino on 16:57 - Nov 16 by Radlett_blue |
As another poster said, Witham Town don't have the right to play at Old Trafford regularly. The whole international calendar is completely bloated, with larger tournament finals & more tournaments, filling every summer. This is largely about the battle for control of the game between FIFA, UEFA & the big European clubs. None of these groups are particularly likeable as the clubs want to grab as much of the money as possible, while the corrupt FIFA & UEFA bureaucrats want to stay in power so the keep pandering to the tiny countries with the silly one country, one vote system. Both the World Cup & Euros should be slimmed down & with a much simpler, smaller qualification process, but with the corruption at the top, that's never going to happen. So we will have more & more international fixtures, including the pointless mis-matches such as England v San Marino. |
Is Witham Town an independent country? I hadn't realised. The comparisons don't work, club and international football are two entirely different beasts. | |
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| ITV comments on San Marino on 17:12 - Nov 16 with 311 views | footers |
| ITV comments on San Marino on 17:10 - Nov 16 by Herbivore |
Is Witham Town an independent country? I hadn't realised. The comparisons don't work, club and international football are two entirely different beasts. |
Stranger things have happened. Like wkj campaigning as an SNP candidate in Norwich last election. | |
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| ITV comments on San Marino on 17:15 - Nov 16 with 294 views | C_HealyIsAPleasure |
| ITV comments on San Marino on 16:57 - Nov 16 by Radlett_blue |
As another poster said, Witham Town don't have the right to play at Old Trafford regularly. The whole international calendar is completely bloated, with larger tournament finals & more tournaments, filling every summer. This is largely about the battle for control of the game between FIFA, UEFA & the big European clubs. None of these groups are particularly likeable as the clubs want to grab as much of the money as possible, while the corrupt FIFA & UEFA bureaucrats want to stay in power so the keep pandering to the tiny countries with the silly one country, one vote system. Both the World Cup & Euros should be slimmed down & with a much simpler, smaller qualification process, but with the corruption at the top, that's never going to happen. So we will have more & more international fixtures, including the pointless mis-matches such as England v San Marino. |
Not sure the international game is anymore bloated than it’s ever been really, at least not for some time. Looking at the number of England games by year this millennium it is between 10-14 every year with the exception of 2011 & 2020 which were below due to cancellations, and 2018 and 2021 which were higher mainly due to England making a deep run in a tournament. 2021 is also inflated slightly by games which would have been in 2020 being squeezed in
Looking back further at some random years 1990 saw 15 games (again aided by a deep tournament run) and 1980 13 fixtures | |
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| ITV comments on San Marino on 17:33 - Nov 16 with 293 views | Oldboy |
A minnows group of
Faroe Islands
Gibraltar
San Marino
Andorra
Liechtenstein
The winners go straight to the World Cup/European Championships. That way they have a real chance of progressing in the future. Once the same team wins this group twice in a row, they are back in main draw.
Something along those lines would give these nations a real fighting chance of progressing. |  | | |
| ITV comments on San Marino on 17:38 - Nov 16 with 288 views | tractordownsouth |
| ITV comments on San Marino on 17:33 - Nov 16 by Oldboy |
A minnows group of
Faroe Islands
Gibraltar
San Marino
Andorra
Liechtenstein
The winners go straight to the World Cup/European Championships. That way they have a real chance of progressing in the future. Once the same team wins this group twice in a row, they are back in main draw.
Something along those lines would give these nations a real fighting chance of progressing. |
A similar thing happened for the past Euros. A place was given to the winner of the bottom tier of the Nations League. North Macedonia qualified ahead of Georgia, Belarus and Kosovo. | |
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