| Two more reasons to hate Dominic Raab. on 15:50 - Dec 31 with 1273 views | ZXBlue |
| Two more reasons to hate Dominic Raab. on 15:34 - Dec 31 by Darth_Koont |
Because we didn’t just wake up with Johnson, Raab, Patel etc.
They’re the result of underlying political, social and economic issues and divisions in the UK and how we’ve just not responded to them. Starmer is that non-response brought to life. |
Seriously. Your solution is the opposite of a solution.
A large propotion of people need persuading away from the current government. If every valid criticism is met by a reminder of hard left dogmatism, how will that happen? You are doing the Daily Mail's job for it. [Post edited 31 Dec 2021 15:51]
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| Two more reasons to hate Dominic Raab. on 15:58 - Dec 31 with 1243 views | Darth_Koont |
| Two more reasons to hate Dominic Raab. on 15:50 - Dec 31 by ZXBlue |
Seriously. Your solution is the opposite of a solution.
A large propotion of people need persuading away from the current government. If every valid criticism is met by a reminder of hard left dogmatism, how will that happen? You are doing the Daily Mail's job for it. [Post edited 31 Dec 2021 15:51]
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Addressing the real problems isn’t a solution? But playing dress up politics is?
Sounds about right. |  |
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| Two more reasons to hate Dominic Raab. on 16:03 - Dec 31 with 1233 views | ZXBlue |
| Two more reasons to hate Dominic Raab. on 15:58 - Dec 31 by Darth_Koont |
Addressing the real problems isn’t a solution? But playing dress up politics is?
Sounds about right. |
There is a huge elephant in the room of your ideology.
Corbyn, or similar cannot and will not win an election.
Undermining Starmer, makes it more likely that the conservatives will get another term and make things worse.
But your ideology is more important than those things. | | | |
| Two more reasons to hate Dominic Raab. on 16:06 - Dec 31 with 1231 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Two more reasons to hate Dominic Raab. on 16:03 - Dec 31 by ZXBlue |
There is a huge elephant in the room of your ideology.
Corbyn, or similar cannot and will not win an election.
Undermining Starmer, makes it more likely that the conservatives will get another term and make things worse.
But your ideology is more important than those things. |
Idealogical purity > improving peoples lives | | | |
| Two more reasons to hate Dominic Raab. on 16:11 - Dec 31 with 1218 views | Darth_Koont |
| Two more reasons to hate Dominic Raab. on 15:50 - Dec 31 by ZXBlue |
Seriously. Your solution is the opposite of a solution.
A large propotion of people need persuading away from the current government. If every valid criticism is met by a reminder of hard left dogmatism, how will that happen? You are doing the Daily Mail's job for it. [Post edited 31 Dec 2021 15:51]
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Re: your edit, what’s hard-left dogmatic about my views? I want pragmatic, evidence-based politics and policies.
And you won’t get anyone away from the current government by playing the same games. We’ve had Brexit and Johnson enabled by ducking the issues and letting people believe what they want. Which has translated into them supporting any and every lie that delivers their fantasy.
Similarly we have many people in the centre and supposed left who will let Starmer lie to get elected and believe that nothing *really* needs to change, except democratic socialism and genuine social democracy need to be vilified and discredited. So a similar fantasy and similar support for any and every dishonesty that achieves it.
We could of course change the game and raise the standard across the board by demanding facts, evidence, honesty and transparency from all our politicians and political pundits. Or we can just perpetuate this race to the bottom and wonder why we get crappy governments and a country that’s deeply divided along many different lines.
Anyway, enough about that. Here’s hoping for a much better 2022 and a change in direction for ITFC as well as the UK. | |
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| Two more reasons to hate Dominic Raab. on 16:12 - Dec 31 with 1212 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Two more reasons to hate Dominic Raab. on 16:11 - Dec 31 by Darth_Koont |
Re: your edit, what’s hard-left dogmatic about my views? I want pragmatic, evidence-based politics and policies.
And you won’t get anyone away from the current government by playing the same games. We’ve had Brexit and Johnson enabled by ducking the issues and letting people believe what they want. Which has translated into them supporting any and every lie that delivers their fantasy.
Similarly we have many people in the centre and supposed left who will let Starmer lie to get elected and believe that nothing *really* needs to change, except democratic socialism and genuine social democracy need to be vilified and discredited. So a similar fantasy and similar support for any and every dishonesty that achieves it.
We could of course change the game and raise the standard across the board by demanding facts, evidence, honesty and transparency from all our politicians and political pundits. Or we can just perpetuate this race to the bottom and wonder why we get crappy governments and a country that’s deeply divided along many different lines.
Anyway, enough about that. Here’s hoping for a much better 2022 and a change in direction for ITFC as well as the UK. |
Upvoted for the last para. | | | |
| Two more reasons to hate Dominic Raab. on 16:14 - Dec 31 with 1211 views | Darth_Koont |
| Two more reasons to hate Dominic Raab. on 16:03 - Dec 31 by ZXBlue |
There is a huge elephant in the room of your ideology.
Corbyn, or similar cannot and will not win an election.
Undermining Starmer, makes it more likely that the conservatives will get another term and make things worse.
But your ideology is more important than those things. |
What is my ideology?
And as you know Corbyn’s policies are very popular on their own when tested. If you’re saying that the establishment politicians and media won’t allow it then I can certainly agree with that. But that makes the case for a more fundamental change in our politics and political discourse. | |
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| Two more reasons to hate Dominic Raab. on 16:16 - Dec 31 with 1204 views | Herbivore |
| Two more reasons to hate Dominic Raab. on 15:34 - Dec 31 by Darth_Koont |
Because we didn’t just wake up with Johnson, Raab, Patel etc.
They’re the result of underlying political, social and economic issues and divisions in the UK and how we’ve just not responded to them. Starmer is that non-response brought to life. |
They're the result of Corbyn's hubris. |  |
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| Two more reasons to hate Dominic Raab. on 16:21 - Dec 31 with 1187 views | Darth_Koont |
| Two more reasons to hate Dominic Raab. on 16:06 - Dec 31 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Idealogical purity > improving peoples lives |
To be fair, I’m against the slavish devotion to neoliberalism that is clearly not improving lives.
If you want policies that improve people’s lives (the greater good) then we can surely look for those in our own society and in happier, healthier societies. And steer away from the policies that increase inequality and injustice.
It’s really not difficult if people are serious about improving lives, rather than holding on to their ideology or what’s in their own individual best interests. | |
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| Two more reasons to hate Dominic Raab. on 16:25 - Dec 31 with 1177 views | Darth_Koont |
| Two more reasons to hate Dominic Raab. on 16:16 - Dec 31 by Herbivore |
They're the result of Corbyn's hubris. |
Possibly. But let’s not ignore the worst smear campaign (even from within Labour) ever directed at a major political leader when we had Johnson in direct comparison.
Stunning own goal by the big political brains. Who’ve called almost nothing right in decades ... | |
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| Two more reasons to hate Dominic Raab. on 17:18 - Dec 31 with 1124 views | jeera |
| Two more reasons to hate Dominic Raab. on 11:00 - Dec 31 by jimmyvet |
You shouldn’t hate anyone.You posted a while back about mental health and being kind to people some of your vitriol and hate posted today is pretty poor and you ought to practice what you were preaching a while back to others!
Johnson is an incompetent Buffon but I don’t hate him or Rabb or all Tories, most of whom are decent hard working people who just disagree with you on politics. |
Disagree on politics? Where the hell have you been for the past few years man?
You mean you can agree with people who haven't a clue what they're doing?
These are people's lives they're pissing around with.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46142188 [Post edited 31 Dec 2021 17:19]
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| Two more reasons to hate Dominic Raab. on 18:53 - Dec 31 with 1092 views | factual_blue |
| Two more reasons to hate Dominic Raab. on 11:00 - Dec 31 by jimmyvet |
You shouldn’t hate anyone.You posted a while back about mental health and being kind to people some of your vitriol and hate posted today is pretty poor and you ought to practice what you were preaching a while back to others!
Johnson is an incompetent Buffon but I don’t hate him or Rabb or all Tories, most of whom are decent hard working people who just disagree with you on politics. |
Google 'Ian Banks and sweetcorn', and then click on images. |  |
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| Two more reasons to hate Dominic Raab. on 19:06 - Dec 31 with 1071 views | EdwardStone |
| Two more reasons to hate Dominic Raab. on 14:54 - Dec 31 by Darth_Koont |
“Starmer is not the problem. You only dislike his “integrity” because he’s rightly removing the unelectables in the party.”
No, regardless of how disingenuous and distasteful I find Starmer’s show trials, that’s literally a sideshow or symptom of the bigger problem. And a problem which Starmer et al are firmly a part of.
For decades in the UK we’ve ignored underlying issues and put our faith in some fantasy neoliberal settlement. This was clearly continued under New Labour and made far too many issues worse. The fractures and divisions plus a shaky future in the UK have come from ignoring these issues.
Scottish independence and growing independence sentiment in Wales and NI? You can’t be the most centralised country in the OECD and just bury your head in the sand and expect the regions to work things out for themselves.
Brexit? Ties in with the above but you can’t expect regions and communities to support the establishment in a bounty they don’t really share. That disillusionment and disenfranchisement comes from years of structural inequality and overall decline in our economy, with almost a total lack of investment in the wider economy and infrastructure to show for it. Even Johnson’s paltry levelling up is being lapped up but that’s just pork barrel politics and no indication that the penny has really dropped.
Young-old inequality? Which also reflects racial, regional, gender inequality too. We’ve defaulted to serving the interests of a very middle-aged, middle-class, white, male and home-owning electorate (who coincidentally are the same as our politicians, journalists and their mates). We’re actively screwing over those outside that and making their lives worse than they’ve been for the first time in the last 70 years. As house prices go up, social mobility decreases and our low productivity and underlying poor economic performance continue, we’re creating an even more unstable future. What’s the end-game here?
The future itself? Meanwhile, we’re so stuck in our fantasy socio-political bubble that we’re falling behind most of the developed world in addressing the real global challenges of climate, AI, automation and an aging population. Who’s even lifting these subjects into any sort of coherent discussion? No, instead we seem to be focusing on culture war nonsense designed to restrict the rights of the people who have most to complain about.
So my dislike of Starmer is much more rooted in his lying about who he was and what he stands for to gain control of the Labour Party. He talked about building on the social democratic policy platform of 2017 then he made his own pledges to reinforce that. Now he’s backed away from them almost entirely and is only talking about tinkering with the system rather than doing the job he was elected for.
He’s miles away from being a solution to anything apart from reestablishing the status quo and our continued avoidance of real social and economic issues. Johnson is a chaotic disaster and a threat to the country, but nothing makes our decline more inevitable than if we bring someone in to actually manage the decline. |
One thing that would help to untie this knot is to build many many more houses. A roof over your head is not a Human Right....it is far more important than that
The problem with trying to build more homes is the Nimbys....
So.... I would say that one may not object to any planning application for housing if you are
a) A home owner
b) Over 50 years old
And we should allow a whole bunch of simple, cheap self-build houses to all that need or want |  | | |
| Two more reasons to hate Dominic Raab. on 22:17 - Dec 31 with 1001 views | factual_blue |
| Two more reasons to hate Dominic Raab. on 15:28 - Dec 31 by gardins01 |
Why would you hate anyone |
I don't hate dominic raaab.
I simply despise him as an utter incompetent, empty-headed nincompoop.
Sadly, he is no better or worse than all his Cabinet colleagues.
I do, however, hate what they're doing to our country. | |
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| Two more reasons to hate Dominic Raab. on 22:32 - Dec 31 with 983 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Two more reasons to hate Dominic Raab. on 14:54 - Dec 31 by Darth_Koont |
“Starmer is not the problem. You only dislike his “integrity” because he’s rightly removing the unelectables in the party.”
No, regardless of how disingenuous and distasteful I find Starmer’s show trials, that’s literally a sideshow or symptom of the bigger problem. And a problem which Starmer et al are firmly a part of.
For decades in the UK we’ve ignored underlying issues and put our faith in some fantasy neoliberal settlement. This was clearly continued under New Labour and made far too many issues worse. The fractures and divisions plus a shaky future in the UK have come from ignoring these issues.
Scottish independence and growing independence sentiment in Wales and NI? You can’t be the most centralised country in the OECD and just bury your head in the sand and expect the regions to work things out for themselves.
Brexit? Ties in with the above but you can’t expect regions and communities to support the establishment in a bounty they don’t really share. That disillusionment and disenfranchisement comes from years of structural inequality and overall decline in our economy, with almost a total lack of investment in the wider economy and infrastructure to show for it. Even Johnson’s paltry levelling up is being lapped up but that’s just pork barrel politics and no indication that the penny has really dropped.
Young-old inequality? Which also reflects racial, regional, gender inequality too. We’ve defaulted to serving the interests of a very middle-aged, middle-class, white, male and home-owning electorate (who coincidentally are the same as our politicians, journalists and their mates). We’re actively screwing over those outside that and making their lives worse than they’ve been for the first time in the last 70 years. As house prices go up, social mobility decreases and our low productivity and underlying poor economic performance continue, we’re creating an even more unstable future. What’s the end-game here?
The future itself? Meanwhile, we’re so stuck in our fantasy socio-political bubble that we’re falling behind most of the developed world in addressing the real global challenges of climate, AI, automation and an aging population. Who’s even lifting these subjects into any sort of coherent discussion? No, instead we seem to be focusing on culture war nonsense designed to restrict the rights of the people who have most to complain about.
So my dislike of Starmer is much more rooted in his lying about who he was and what he stands for to gain control of the Labour Party. He talked about building on the social democratic policy platform of 2017 then he made his own pledges to reinforce that. Now he’s backed away from them almost entirely and is only talking about tinkering with the system rather than doing the job he was elected for.
He’s miles away from being a solution to anything apart from reestablishing the status quo and our continued avoidance of real social and economic issues. Johnson is a chaotic disaster and a threat to the country, but nothing makes our decline more inevitable than if we bring someone in to actually manage the decline. |
Incredibly patronising to think that Scottish/Welsh nationalism has arisen out of a failure of the English to guide them. Quite the opposite. It doesn’t matter who the leaders of English parties are; it won’t change the views of people wanting independence.
You’re a bit wonky on the rest too. Brexit? It’s Corbyn’s failure to take a position that undermined Labour. The New Labour old guard have consistently campaigned against the damage of Brexit. |  |
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| Two more reasons to hate Dominic Raab. on 12:47 - Jan 1 with 894 views | Darth_Koont |
| Two more reasons to hate Dominic Raab. on 22:32 - Dec 31 by Swansea_Blue |
Incredibly patronising to think that Scottish/Welsh nationalism has arisen out of a failure of the English to guide them. Quite the opposite. It doesn’t matter who the leaders of English parties are; it won’t change the views of people wanting independence.
You’re a bit wonky on the rest too. Brexit? It’s Corbyn’s failure to take a position that undermined Labour. The New Labour old guard have consistently campaigned against the damage of Brexit. |
I think your’re misreading that Swanners. Or at least I’m not being clear enough.
I’m not talking about the politics of the regions but the underlying socio-economic disparity that fuels independence. We are one of the most centralized countries in the OECD. With a huge disparity in earnings and productivity compared not only to London but comparable second-cities and non-capital regions in other countries. That’s a problem – and it’s also fed into the support for Brexit in the North.
We can talk about how the politics of independence and Brexit was handled or bungled by Corbyn, People’s Vote crew or whoever. But it’s only by addressing these structural issues, ignored over decades, that we actually start looking at real-world solutions. | |
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| Two more reasons to hate Dominic Raab. on 14:00 - Jan 1 with 846 views | Darth_Koont |
| Two more reasons to hate Dominic Raab. on 19:06 - Dec 31 by EdwardStone |
One thing that would help to untie this knot is to build many many more houses. A roof over your head is not a Human Right....it is far more important than that
The problem with trying to build more homes is the Nimbys....
So.... I would say that one may not object to any planning application for housing if you are
a) A home owner
b) Over 50 years old
And we should allow a whole bunch of simple, cheap self-build houses to all that need or want |
I agree that housing has been criminally mismanaged for decades.
It was under New Labour that house prices really surged and left non-home owners particularly high and dry. To not invest in housing (new stock and refurbishment) particularly during that period was scandalous. It should have been an absolute priority but it’s now been allowed to fall almost completely out of a government’s remit now. And of course, local authorities have been starved of the budget too.
We lack the political will to take responsibility. Whether that’s led by voter apathy/self-interest or whether the lack of political leadership came first, I don’t know. Bit of both, but we’ve created another massive problem by shrugging our shoulders. | |
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| Two more reasons to hate Dominic Raab. on 15:34 - Jan 1 with 812 views | EdwardStone |
| Two more reasons to hate Dominic Raab. on 14:00 - Jan 1 by Darth_Koont |
I agree that housing has been criminally mismanaged for decades.
It was under New Labour that house prices really surged and left non-home owners particularly high and dry. To not invest in housing (new stock and refurbishment) particularly during that period was scandalous. It should have been an absolute priority but it’s now been allowed to fall almost completely out of a government’s remit now. And of course, local authorities have been starved of the budget too.
We lack the political will to take responsibility. Whether that’s led by voter apathy/self-interest or whether the lack of political leadership came first, I don’t know. Bit of both, but we’ve created another massive problem by shrugging our shoulders. |
Without a roof over your head, you will perish....simple as that
The current Planning Laws were enacted in 1947 when Govt. had a huge say in your life, what you may and may not eat, what you may wear and whether you would be summoned to the Colours to go and fight and possibly die...so a very different age
Clothes Rationing ended a long time ago, Food Rationing ended a long time ago, conscription ended a long time ago
But we are still saddled with our absurd Planning Laws that were drafted, with all good intentions, 75 years ago.
I am not sure that I agree with your thrust that New Labour bear responsibility .... the die was cast long before they were in power. I suppose they could have done a great deal more in their time in power, but the whole housing situation has been criminally managed for many a decade before and after then
I have locked horns with my Local Planning Authority on a number of occasions.... they never cease to astonish me with the length of time they take to reach the wrong answer...they are utterly pitiful. And they are the shield behind which our Govt can conveniently shelter when any sort of planning reforms are put forward
If society were able to offer genuinely low cost and high quality housing, so many other problems would be much simpler to solve... [Post edited 1 Jan 2022 18:00]
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| Two more reasons to hate Dominic Raab. on 16:42 - Jan 1 with 766 views | Darth_Koont |
| Two more reasons to hate Dominic Raab. on 15:34 - Jan 1 by EdwardStone |
Without a roof over your head, you will perish....simple as that
The current Planning Laws were enacted in 1947 when Govt. had a huge say in your life, what you may and may not eat, what you may wear and whether you would be summoned to the Colours to go and fight and possibly die...so a very different age
Clothes Rationing ended a long time ago, Food Rationing ended a long time ago, conscription ended a long time ago
But we are still saddled with our absurd Planning Laws that were drafted, with all good intentions, 75 years ago.
I am not sure that I agree with your thrust that New Labour bear responsibility .... the die was cast long before they were in power. I suppose they could have done a great deal more in their time in power, but the whole housing situation has been criminally managed for many a decade before and after then
I have locked horns with my Local Planning Authority on a number of occasions.... they never cease to astonish me with the length of time they take to reach the wrong answer...they are utterly pitiful. And they are the shield behind which our Govt can conveniently shelter when any sort of planning reforms are put forward
If society were able to offer genuinely low cost and high quality housing, so many other problems would be much simpler to solve... [Post edited 1 Jan 2022 18:00]
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I’m not that clear on the Planning Law effect but yes, would be interesting to look at.
Here’s what I mean about Labour failing on housing – just like Tory governments have failed on housing I’d hasten to say.
Here’s the housing price boom
And here’s what was happening in social and affordable housing that was turned into a market rather than a social responsibility.
It’s not a party political issue but lower-income people and the young have been left high and dry by these market forces unchecked by social planning. But that’s the ideology we generally live by nowadays. | |
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| Two more reasons to hate Dominic Raab. on 17:29 - Jan 1 with 724 views | EdwardStone |
| Two more reasons to hate Dominic Raab. on 16:42 - Jan 1 by Darth_Koont |
I’m not that clear on the Planning Law effect but yes, would be interesting to look at.
Here’s what I mean about Labour failing on housing – just like Tory governments have failed on housing I’d hasten to say.
Here’s the housing price boom
And here’s what was happening in social and affordable housing that was turned into a market rather than a social responsibility.
It’s not a party political issue but lower-income people and the young have been left high and dry by these market forces unchecked by social planning. But that’s the ideology we generally live by nowadays. |
But house prices/ rent just follows the market.... price is dictated by supply vs demand
My solution would be to flood supply....and to those who complain, well there are a number of solutions available. my preferred would be Firing Squad, but I guess that might seem harsh
We have somehow worked ourselves into a situation where the majority of houses are built by a very few volume providers.... and they are remarkably happy to sell a Mini Metro quality product for Ferrari prices
Allow the homeless to build their way out of homelessness, provide serviced self-build plots for miniscule cost and see where Society goes | | | |
| Two more reasons to hate Dominic Raab. on 17:37 - Jan 1 with 715 views | jeera |
| Two more reasons to hate Dominic Raab. on 17:29 - Jan 1 by EdwardStone |
But house prices/ rent just follows the market.... price is dictated by supply vs demand
My solution would be to flood supply....and to those who complain, well there are a number of solutions available. my preferred would be Firing Squad, but I guess that might seem harsh
We have somehow worked ourselves into a situation where the majority of houses are built by a very few volume providers.... and they are remarkably happy to sell a Mini Metro quality product for Ferrari prices
Allow the homeless to build their way out of homelessness, provide serviced self-build plots for miniscule cost and see where Society goes |
Too much housing stock is owned by too few people.
I've argued for years there should be a climbing scale of taxation beyond a first home, making a 3rd, 4th etc property untenable.
Too many private landlords, far too many opportunists doing ok at the expense of others. | |
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| Two more reasons to hate Dominic Raab. on 17:41 - Jan 1 with 707 views | EdwardStone |
| Two more reasons to hate Dominic Raab. on 17:37 - Jan 1 by jeera |
Too much housing stock is owned by too few people.
I've argued for years there should be a climbing scale of taxation beyond a first home, making a 3rd, 4th etc property untenable.
Too many private landlords, far too many opportunists doing ok at the expense of others. |
I would agree with all that.... but still doesn't address the fundamental issue of insufficient housing stock
And the stock we already have is pretty poor quality, not really suited to face the challenges of the coming decades | | | |
| Two more reasons to hate Dominic Raab. on 17:45 - Jan 1 with 700 views | jeera |
| Two more reasons to hate Dominic Raab. on 17:41 - Jan 1 by EdwardStone |
I would agree with all that.... but still doesn't address the fundamental issue of insufficient housing stock
And the stock we already have is pretty poor quality, not really suited to face the challenges of the coming decades |
Agree with your argument that people should be given the opportunity to build their own homes too.
Why hands always seemingly tied when individuals apply to purchase a modest piece of land with a vision to build a future for themselves and their families, yet when a construction firm comes in and wants to rip up fields at a time and chuck up a load of cheaply knocked-up papier-mache, little better than prefab quality, to flog on at top dollar...
I know, it's all upside down. | |
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| Two more reasons to hate Dominic Raab. on 17:50 - Jan 1 with 694 views | EdwardStone |
| Two more reasons to hate Dominic Raab. on 17:45 - Jan 1 by jeera |
Agree with your argument that people should be given the opportunity to build their own homes too.
Why hands always seemingly tied when individuals apply to purchase a modest piece of land with a vision to build a future for themselves and their families, yet when a construction firm comes in and wants to rip up fields at a time and chuck up a load of cheaply knocked-up papier-mache, little better than prefab quality, to flog on at top dollar...
I know, it's all upside down. |
The blame for that scenario lies directly with the Planning "System"
It is almost impenetrable to mere mortals and the planning authority will argue 'til the cows come home about why something shouldn't be built
There are a few plus points about our current regime, it would be ungenerous not to acknowledge that
But it has caused immeasurable harm to individuals and climate | | | |
| Two more reasons to hate Dominic Raab. on 17:51 - Jan 1 with 694 views | brogansnose |
| Two more reasons to hate Dominic Raab. on 17:45 - Jan 1 by jeera |
Agree with your argument that people should be given the opportunity to build their own homes too.
Why hands always seemingly tied when individuals apply to purchase a modest piece of land with a vision to build a future for themselves and their families, yet when a construction firm comes in and wants to rip up fields at a time and chuck up a load of cheaply knocked-up papier-mache, little better than prefab quality, to flog on at top dollar...
I know, it's all upside down. |
These building companies have also 'sat' on land drip feeding the market to keep prices high.
See also, local councils and authorities in smaller towns and villages only giving planning consent to larger , what used to be termed, exec homes. |  | | |
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