| Did the Belfast Agreement essentially lock us into the EU? 10:18 - Jun 15 with 3227 views | Trequartista |
I’m sure it’s more nuanced than that but is that what it boils down to in the end? We can’t have a border on the Irish mainland and we can’t have a border in the Irish Sea. |  |
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| Did the Belfast Agreement essentially lock us into the EU? on 14:40 - Jun 15 with 723 views | XYZ |
| Did the Belfast Agreement essentially lock us into the EU? on 14:07 - Jun 15 by Steve_M |
Indeed.
And, whilst hindsight, is easy had May proposed membership of both whilst leaving the political institutions as a solution for a country split down the middle by the divisive and unnecessary referendum then the country would probably be in a better place now. |
Quite. She has a lot to answer for.
A proper, open and sincere cross-party consultation is what almost any previous UK PM would have done on such a fundamental political step.
Instead ... |  | | |
| Did the Belfast Agreement essentially lock us into the EU? on 14:49 - Jun 15 with 700 views | pointofblue |
| Did the Belfast Agreement essentially lock us into the EU? on 14:40 - Jun 15 by XYZ |
Quite. She has a lot to answer for.
A proper, open and sincere cross-party consultation is what almost any previous UK PM would have done on such a fundamental political step.
Instead ... |
Though the backstop almost covered this and would have meant no border between the mainland and Northern Ireland or on the island of Ireland. The DUP rejected it out of hand and ended up with something worse. | |
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| Did the Belfast Agreement essentially lock us into the EU? on 14:56 - Jun 15 with 689 views | XYZ |
| Did the Belfast Agreement essentially lock us into the EU? on 14:49 - Jun 15 by pointofblue |
Though the backstop almost covered this and would have meant no border between the mainland and Northern Ireland or on the island of Ireland. The DUP rejected it out of hand and ended up with something worse. |
She made no effort to garner cross-party support at all.
Her priority was her own position and the "togetherness" of the Tory Party.
John Major stood up to the bast**ds (as he dubbed them). May let them walk all over her and shafted the country. | | | |
| Did the Belfast Agreement essentially lock us into the EU? on 14:57 - Jun 15 with 686 views | pointofblue |
| Did the Belfast Agreement essentially lock us into the EU? on 14:56 - Jun 15 by XYZ |
She made no effort to garner cross-party support at all.
Her priority was her own position and the "togetherness" of the Tory Party.
John Major stood up to the bast**ds (as he dubbed them). May let them walk all over her and shafted the country. |
True - it’s just Johnson’s deal is even worse. | |
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| Did the Belfast Agreement essentially lock us into the EU? on 15:25 - Jun 15 with 674 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Did the Belfast Agreement essentially lock us into the EU? on 14:00 - Jun 15 by Swansea_Blue |
An unnecessary peacock dance that distracts them from getting on with what they should be doing. Although a cynic would say that they're not interested in doing a good job at governing. |
It takes two to tango Swanners dear boy, you shouldn't forget that. |  |
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| Did the Belfast Agreement essentially lock us into the EU? on 15:27 - Jun 15 with 672 views | Cotty |
| Did the Belfast Agreement essentially lock us into the EU? on 15:25 - Jun 15 by Lord_Lucan |
It takes two to tango Swanners dear boy, you shouldn't forget that. |
I'm not sure that's fair in this instance. If you leave a golf club, do you expect to be able to continue to play for free? I'm pretty sure it's our fault for cancelling the direct debit. |  | | |
| Did the Belfast Agreement essentially lock us into the EU? on 15:36 - Jun 15 with 665 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Did the Belfast Agreement essentially lock us into the EU? on 15:27 - Jun 15 by Cotty |
I'm not sure that's fair in this instance. If you leave a golf club, do you expect to be able to continue to play for free? I'm pretty sure it's our fault for cancelling the direct debit. |
I didn't want the leave the golf club in the first place - but without question the golf club are going to make life as difficult as possible in case other members get ideas above their station. | |
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| Did the Belfast Agreement essentially lock us into the EU? on 15:48 - Jun 15 with 649 views | Cotty |
| Did the Belfast Agreement essentially lock us into the EU? on 15:36 - Jun 15 by Lord_Lucan |
I didn't want the leave the golf club in the first place - but without question the golf club are going to make life as difficult as possible in case other members get ideas above their station. |
Yeah, they'll erect a fence if you keep breaking the rules, trespassing, and leaving "surprises" in the bunkers. That's just defending their course and their current paying membership. | | | |
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| Did the Belfast Agreement essentially lock us into the EU? on 16:22 - Jun 15 with 633 views | HARRY10 |
| Did the Belfast Agreement essentially lock us into the EU? on 14:07 - Jun 15 by Steve_M |
Indeed.
And, whilst hindsight, is easy had May proposed membership of both whilst leaving the political institutions as a solution for a country split down the middle by the divisive and unnecessary referendum then the country would probably be in a better place now. |
Yes, as Town fans would like to keep their STs, but not pay for them. Whereas, there is no such thing as a 'soft' brexit, anymore than there is being a bit pregnant
And the irony is that, despite all the squeaking about supposed new deals, there are none, other than Japan where the UK is worse, as with Aus/NZ, which are still yet to be ratified.
So the UK is still trading under EU schedules, without any input into the drafting up of them. Rather like paying for a ST, but not being able to watch any games. Only brexiteers could be that thick.
Was this raised before the referendim ? Yes, as
"Mr Blair argued a vote to leave would mean the only alternative to controls on the land border "would have to be checks between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UKl". Sir John Major warned it would be "an historic mistake" to do anything that risked destabilising the Good Friday Agreement, which brought the troubles in Northern Ireland to an end.
In response, the then Northern Ireland First Minister Arlene Foster spoke of "deeply offensive" scare stories from the Remain campaign, and the then Northern Ireland Secretary, Theresa Villiers, also a prominent leave supporter, said any suggestion that Brexit could have a negative impact on the peace process was "deeply irresponsible".
So once again we see righties lying through their teeth and using scare tactics to deflect from addressing the reality of what they were urging the thickos to vote for. And those doing the current whinging are the DUP, whose leader described the birder down the Irish Sean as "deeply offensive" .
What IS offensive is that the likes of her, Johnson, Farage etc were happy to lie through their teeth for personal political/financial gain.
Thankfully the move back into the EU has already begun. Foreign workers are increasing and the border controls on imports has been delayed for yet another time.
I expect this will be merely another Johnson u-turn, further isolating the swivel eyed through another defeat | | | |
| Did the Belfast Agreement essentially lock us into the EU? on 19:14 - Jun 15 with 607 views | Trequartista |
| Did the Belfast Agreement essentially lock us into the EU? on 13:56 - Jun 15 by Steve_M |
Not true, May ruled it out to appease the ERG-wing of the Tory Party.
The UK never did, and still hasn't, worked out what it wanted from Brexit because it was a mishmash of mutually incompatible desires.
And to the answer the Q in your OP, no it doesn't but it should have highlighted why any change to the constitutional status of Northern Ireland should have been treated with far more care and attention than it was, and is now, by this government. |
Ah ok. I was thinking along the lines of the Norway option where they are not in the EU, not in the customs union, but is in the single market.
But you think the EU would have let us stay in the customs union as well? That would mean "No" to my question. I'll have a read up on that.
Perhaps the question should be "Did the Belfast Agreement essentially lock us into the EU customs union?" [Post edited 15 Jun 2022 19:21]
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| Did the Belfast Agreement essentially lock us into the EU? on 19:16 - Jun 15 with 601 views | Trequartista |
| Did the Belfast Agreement essentially lock us into the EU? on 14:02 - Jun 15 by XYZ |
There was no mandate for leaving the Single Market or Customs Union.
Parties proposing those courses of action received less than 50% of the votes at the 2017 and 2019 General Elections.
Completely undemocratic. |
No i disagree with just adding up votes of what parties proposed because an Election is not about 1 issue. | |
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| New question on 19:27 - Jun 15 with 598 views | Trequartista |
I think the answer to my question was "no" because we could have left the EU and stayed in the customs union.
So my new question is "Were we essentially locked into the EU Customs Union"? i.e. would the Belfast Agreement and the avoidance of treating GB different to NI mean we had no Norway option (single market only) or hard brexit option (which we've taken but cannot implement) ? | |
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| New question on 19:35 - Jun 15 with 594 views | wkj |
| New question on 19:27 - Jun 15 by Trequartista |
I think the answer to my question was "no" because we could have left the EU and stayed in the customs union.
So my new question is "Were we essentially locked into the EU Customs Union"? i.e. would the Belfast Agreement and the avoidance of treating GB different to NI mean we had no Norway option (single market only) or hard brexit option (which we've taken but cannot implement) ? |
Well, we're not locked into anything at all at present, other than a deal that Boris made that is unfit for purpose. However, being in the customs union would certainly be a good option to resolve it. |  |
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| New question on 19:51 - Jun 15 with 585 views | Swansea_Blue |
| New question on 19:27 - Jun 15 by Trequartista |
I think the answer to my question was "no" because we could have left the EU and stayed in the customs union.
So my new question is "Were we essentially locked into the EU Customs Union"? i.e. would the Belfast Agreement and the avoidance of treating GB different to NI mean we had no Norway option (single market only) or hard brexit option (which we've taken but cannot implement) ? |
Again, no because we left it. But there is a price for leaving the customs union in terms of more costly red tape.
Maybe the question should be: is it better to be in the SM and/or the CU or not? Misplaced notions of lost sovereignty that was never lost is of little consequence to companies now struggling or who have given up trading into the EU. But there are some different opportunities with new markets for other companies. We could be asking which is best on balance overall, but nobody seemed interested at the time. |  |
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| Did the Belfast Agreement essentially lock us into the EU? on 19:56 - Jun 15 with 568 views | Kievthegreat |
| Did the Belfast Agreement essentially lock us into the EU? on 19:14 - Jun 15 by Trequartista |
Ah ok. I was thinking along the lines of the Norway option where they are not in the EU, not in the customs union, but is in the single market.
But you think the EU would have let us stay in the customs union as well? That would mean "No" to my question. I'll have a read up on that.
Perhaps the question should be "Did the Belfast Agreement essentially lock us into the EU customs union?" [Post edited 15 Jun 2022 19:21]
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The answer is still no, because there remains an option for a border in the Irish sea. |  | | |
| Did the Belfast Agreement essentially lock us into the EU? on 20:01 - Jun 15 with 562 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Did the Belfast Agreement essentially lock us into the EU? on 15:48 - Jun 15 by Cotty |
Yeah, they'll erect a fence if you keep breaking the rules, trespassing, and leaving "surprises" in the bunkers. That's just defending their course and their current paying membership. |
Golf is a game for w@nkers. |  |
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| New question on 20:08 - Jun 15 with 564 views | Trequartista |
| New question on 19:51 - Jun 15 by Swansea_Blue |
Again, no because we left it. But there is a price for leaving the customs union in terms of more costly red tape.
Maybe the question should be: is it better to be in the SM and/or the CU or not? Misplaced notions of lost sovereignty that was never lost is of little consequence to companies now struggling or who have given up trading into the EU. But there are some different opportunities with new markets for other companies. We could be asking which is best on balance overall, but nobody seemed interested at the time. |
We've left it but we've split the uk with the Irish Sea border. He signed a deal he couldn't sustain, hence trying to change it now. It seems to me we were locked into the customs union because of the relationships between NI & Ireland and GB & NI.
By "locked in", I mean no way of leaving it without breaking the GFA or breaking the UK [Post edited 15 Jun 2022 20:10]
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| Did the Belfast Agreement essentially lock us into the EU? on 20:13 - Jun 15 with 556 views | Trequartista |
| Did the Belfast Agreement essentially lock us into the EU? on 19:56 - Jun 15 by Kievthegreat |
The answer is still no, because there remains an option for a border in the Irish sea. |
That doesn't work because it breaks up the UK. That's why Johnson is trying to go back on it, but now the EU are going to court. | |
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| New question on 20:30 - Jun 15 with 548 views | Swansea_Blue |
| New question on 20:08 - Jun 15 by Trequartista |
We've left it but we've split the uk with the Irish Sea border. He signed a deal he couldn't sustain, hence trying to change it now. It seems to me we were locked into the customs union because of the relationships between NI & Ireland and GB & NI.
By "locked in", I mean no way of leaving it without breaking the GFA or breaking the UK [Post edited 15 Jun 2022 20:10]
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Ah yes, in that case then we are unless something radically different changes with how the EU deal with 3rd countries I suspect. The thing is, we knew all this at the time of the referendum. We knew the unique constraints the GFA put on the EU/UK relationship. We knew the price to pay for each option, but our ‘leaders’ (using the term loosely!) in the HoC never had a grown up discussion about it. Not with us nor between themselves.
Instead we got a refusal to acknowledge the potential downsides and bluster and lies in response. Remember those mythical technological solutions that were supposed to solve the problem in an unspecified way? There was no such thing, as we’re now seeing. A fractured UK customs union and a big stack of forms for a consignment that used to be covered by 1 is the result. | |
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| Did the Belfast Agreement essentially lock us into the EU? on 20:46 - Jun 15 with 537 views | ZXBlue |
| Did the Belfast Agreement essentially lock us into the EU? on 14:49 - Jun 15 by pointofblue |
Though the backstop almost covered this and would have meant no border between the mainland and Northern Ireland or on the island of Ireland. The DUP rejected it out of hand and ended up with something worse. |
Indeed. Not May's fault She had the backstop. Boris came in and said he had an oven ready deal, which was essentially a deal which failed to deal with the fundamental problem that existed all along, and was obvious to all. So he lied about it.
It is fundamentally impossible to have NI as a seamless part of the UK whilst NI also has a seamless border with the EU [Post edited 15 Jun 2022 20:47]
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| Did the Belfast Agreement essentially lock us into the EU? on 21:04 - Jun 15 with 527 views | Kievthegreat |
| Did the Belfast Agreement essentially lock us into the EU? on 20:13 - Jun 15 by Trequartista |
That doesn't work because it breaks up the UK. That's why Johnson is trying to go back on it, but now the EU are going to court. |
Then seek to rejoin the customs unions. There are 2 realistic options with their own pros and cons (unless you want to undermine the GFA).
Saying you don't like either and having the international diplomacy equivalent of a temper tantrum might suit BoJo on the homefront, but at some point he has to grow up and engage with reality. | | | |
| Did the Belfast Agreement essentially lock us into the EU? on 21:16 - Jun 15 with 523 views | Trequartista |
| Did the Belfast Agreement essentially lock us into the EU? on 21:04 - Jun 15 by Kievthegreat |
Then seek to rejoin the customs unions. There are 2 realistic options with their own pros and cons (unless you want to undermine the GFA).
Saying you don't like either and having the international diplomacy equivalent of a temper tantrum might suit BoJo on the homefront, but at some point he has to grow up and engage with reality. |
I agree with your analysis of the 2 realistic options, which means there was effectively no option to become an independent country outside of the EU and its components without either causing a UK constitutional crisis (which we seem to be heading towards unless we can change the agreement) or risking the return of the IRA. | |
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| Did the Belfast Agreement essentially lock us into the EU? on 21:23 - Jun 15 with 518 views | ZXBlue |
| Did the Belfast Agreement essentially lock us into the EU? on 21:04 - Jun 15 by Kievthegreat |
Then seek to rejoin the customs unions. There are 2 realistic options with their own pros and cons (unless you want to undermine the GFA).
Saying you don't like either and having the international diplomacy equivalent of a temper tantrum might suit BoJo on the homefront, but at some point he has to grow up and engage with reality. |
That is demonstrably not his approach to anything. | | | |
| New question on 21:24 - Jun 15 with 520 views | Trequartista |
| New question on 20:30 - Jun 15 by Swansea_Blue |
Ah yes, in that case then we are unless something radically different changes with how the EU deal with 3rd countries I suspect. The thing is, we knew all this at the time of the referendum. We knew the unique constraints the GFA put on the EU/UK relationship. We knew the price to pay for each option, but our ‘leaders’ (using the term loosely!) in the HoC never had a grown up discussion about it. Not with us nor between themselves.
Instead we got a refusal to acknowledge the potential downsides and bluster and lies in response. Remember those mythical technological solutions that were supposed to solve the problem in an unspecified way? There was no such thing, as we’re now seeing. A fractured UK customs union and a big stack of forms for a consignment that used to be covered by 1 is the result. |
Makes sense and answers my questions, thank you. I wonder if even in the event of the UK government changing the NI protocol and the EU failing to overturn it, whether we'd have still solved the issue and the NI Assembly would reconvene. | |
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| Did the Belfast Agreement essentially lock us into the EU? on 21:33 - Jun 15 with 498 views | Kievthegreat |
| Did the Belfast Agreement essentially lock us into the EU? on 21:16 - Jun 15 by Trequartista |
I agree with your analysis of the 2 realistic options, which means there was effectively no option to become an independent country outside of the EU and its components without either causing a UK constitutional crisis (which we seem to be heading towards unless we can change the agreement) or risking the return of the IRA. |
You're moving the goalposts now. It was possible to negotiate to be in a customs union with the EU, but not part of the EU.
The independence comment is incredulous. We were independent inside the EU and we are independent outside. It's Faragist nonsense. [Post edited 15 Jun 2022 21:33]
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