| An end to the war in Ukraine possible before Christmas ? 16:09 - Sep 20 with 5749 views | WeWereZombies |
Turkish president Recip Erdogan seems almost as unlikely a peacemaker as Putin but there may be some fragile grounds for hope from the latest meeting between the two, it almost feels like 'over to you, Zelensky'.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62965993 |  |
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| An end to the war in Ukraine possible before Christmas ? on 16:16 - Sep 20 with 2636 views | J2BLUE |
What exactly does Zelensky need to do? Say it's all fine that they've tortured, raped and killed their way into Ukraine and agree to hand over territory? |  |
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| An end to the war in Ukraine possible before Christmas ? on 16:19 - Sep 20 with 2615 views | Churchman |
I don’t see how it’s ‘over to you Zelenski’. Given Putin has invaded Ukraine, it’s over to you Vlad, isn’t it? If Putin wants an end to the war he started, he faces a straight choice. Carry on with the military campaign and the more successful economic campaign against Europe or withdraw from Ukraine.
Trying to lever rigged elections into areas he’s captured wouldn’t do it for me if I was Zelenski. The power of course lies with Biden. It’s his kit that’s giving the Russians a hard time militarily. |  | | |
| An end to the war in Ukraine possible before Christmas ? on 16:24 - Sep 20 with 2592 views | BloomBlue |
Why is it over to Zelensky?
All putin has to do is take all his troops out of Ukraine and return all land back to Ukraine and the war is over.
I'm sure he can complete that by this Sunday at latest. |  | | |
| An end to the war in Ukraine possible before Christmas ? on 16:31 - Sep 20 with 2567 views | WeWereZombies |
| An end to the war in Ukraine possible before Christmas ? on 16:16 - Sep 20 by J2BLUE |
What exactly does Zelensky need to do? Say it's all fine that they've tortured, raped and killed their way into Ukraine and agree to hand over territory? |
AS far Erdogan appears to believe, it is up to Zelensky to talk to Putin. And if it brings an end to a conflict that might go on for another three years and claim thousands of lives then perhaps that is a decent first step. But it is a first step fraught with danger for Ukraine because it brings with it the possibility of recognising Crimea as a Russian republic (or two) and allowing referendums in the Donbas ? | |
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| An end to the war in Ukraine possible before Christmas ? on 16:32 - Sep 20 with 2568 views | Kropotkin123 |
Why would Zelensky give up Ukrainian territory, when they are in the ascendency, Russians have been committing genocide in their illegally occupied territories, and Russia is falling apart at home and on the battlefield?
Erdogan is a bit of a joker tbh. On the one hand he meets with Putin to discuss peace, and on the other he sells Ukraine drones that were a significant early contributor to Ukraine inflicting heavy losses on Russia advances. |  |
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| An end to the war in Ukraine possible before Christmas ? on 16:33 - Sep 20 with 2561 views | WeWereZombies |
| An end to the war in Ukraine possible before Christmas ? on 16:24 - Sep 20 by BloomBlue |
Why is it over to Zelensky?
All putin has to do is take all his troops out of Ukraine and return all land back to Ukraine and the war is over.
I'm sure he can complete that by this Sunday at latest. |
Putin could do that...but somehow I don't think he will do that... | |
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| An end to the war in Ukraine possible before Christmas ? on 16:38 - Sep 20 with 2539 views | Kropotkin123 |
| An end to the war in Ukraine possible before Christmas ? on 16:33 - Sep 20 by WeWereZombies |
Putin could do that...but somehow I don't think he will do that... |
If what you think is the determiner, why do you think Zelensky will sue for peace? He's been very clear, peace will be achieved when Russia is no longer in Ukrainian territory, and that extends to Crimea. There is no greater opportunity to get their stolen land back than now, when he has the backing of the US, Europe and more. [Post edited 20 Sep 2022 16:38]
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| An end to the war in Ukraine possible before Christmas ? on 16:39 - Sep 20 with 2525 views | GeoffSentence |
| An end to the war in Ukraine possible before Christmas ? on 16:24 - Sep 20 by BloomBlue |
Why is it over to Zelensky?
All putin has to do is take all his troops out of Ukraine and return all land back to Ukraine and the war is over.
I'm sure he can complete that by this Sunday at latest. |
Shouldnt take long at at all. The russian army has proved adept at leaving parts of Ukraine in a hurry. |  |
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| An end to the war in Ukraine possible before Christmas ? on 16:43 - Sep 20 with 2512 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
Is this an underhand way of Vladolf escalating? If these territories are ceded to Russia (phoney referendum or not), he can then say Ukraine is attacking Russia’s sovereign territory. I’m not sure what that escalation would look like, but the whole thing stinks.
Nice to see that even India is losing patience with Putin’s war, would be nice if they stopped buying his oil, refining it and sending it for export. |  | | |
| An end to the war in Ukraine possible before Christmas ? on 16:45 - Sep 20 with 2464 views | WeWereZombies |
| An end to the war in Ukraine possible before Christmas ? on 16:32 - Sep 20 by Kropotkin123 |
Why would Zelensky give up Ukrainian territory, when they are in the ascendency, Russians have been committing genocide in their illegally occupied territories, and Russia is falling apart at home and on the battlefield?
Erdogan is a bit of a joker tbh. On the one hand he meets with Putin to discuss peace, and on the other he sells Ukraine drones that were a significant early contributor to Ukraine inflicting heavy losses on Russia advances. |
Zelensky does not have to give up the Ukrainian territory that they have won back. He does have a grim calculation to carry out on how much human sacrifice is necessary to win the rest of Ukraine back though. Russia may appear to be falling apart at the moment but they have, throughout history, shown that they can regroup and still cause extreme problems as a belligerent power. Not that I am not hoping for wholescale regime change in Moscow but I think that even if Putin appears to be toppled we will see no more than the reemergence of Medvedev, i.e. the puppet will take centre stage but the puppet master will still be holding the strings.
I don't think Erdogan is a joker, he is more of a player. He has been in post for eight years now (so has a couple of years left in office) and, no doubt, wants a legacy similar to Atatürk's. So he will be out to claim responsibility for ending the war (just as he claims responsibility for freeing up the grain shipments) to that end. If it involves the drawing up of new national boundaries and thousands of people having to make up their minds which side of a border to live on...well, Turkey has a bit of experience in that field. | |
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| An end to the war in Ukraine possible before Christmas ? on 16:50 - Sep 20 with 2425 views | Kropotkin123 |
| An end to the war in Ukraine possible before Christmas ? on 16:45 - Sep 20 by WeWereZombies |
Zelensky does not have to give up the Ukrainian territory that they have won back. He does have a grim calculation to carry out on how much human sacrifice is necessary to win the rest of Ukraine back though. Russia may appear to be falling apart at the moment but they have, throughout history, shown that they can regroup and still cause extreme problems as a belligerent power. Not that I am not hoping for wholescale regime change in Moscow but I think that even if Putin appears to be toppled we will see no more than the reemergence of Medvedev, i.e. the puppet will take centre stage but the puppet master will still be holding the strings.
I don't think Erdogan is a joker, he is more of a player. He has been in post for eight years now (so has a couple of years left in office) and, no doubt, wants a legacy similar to Atatürk's. So he will be out to claim responsibility for ending the war (just as he claims responsibility for freeing up the grain shipments) to that end. If it involves the drawing up of new national boundaries and thousands of people having to make up their minds which side of a border to live on...well, Turkey has a bit of experience in that field. |
Joker or player has the meaning for me, in so much as he is doing what Is good for him and how he is perceived at home and to a lesser extent by other powers.
Thank you for explaining your views further. | |
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| An end to the war in Ukraine possible before Christmas ? on 16:53 - Sep 20 with 2400 views | Churchman |
| An end to the war in Ukraine possible before Christmas ? on 16:45 - Sep 20 by WeWereZombies |
Zelensky does not have to give up the Ukrainian territory that they have won back. He does have a grim calculation to carry out on how much human sacrifice is necessary to win the rest of Ukraine back though. Russia may appear to be falling apart at the moment but they have, throughout history, shown that they can regroup and still cause extreme problems as a belligerent power. Not that I am not hoping for wholescale regime change in Moscow but I think that even if Putin appears to be toppled we will see no more than the reemergence of Medvedev, i.e. the puppet will take centre stage but the puppet master will still be holding the strings.
I don't think Erdogan is a joker, he is more of a player. He has been in post for eight years now (so has a couple of years left in office) and, no doubt, wants a legacy similar to Atatürk's. So he will be out to claim responsibility for ending the war (just as he claims responsibility for freeing up the grain shipments) to that end. If it involves the drawing up of new national boundaries and thousands of people having to make up their minds which side of a border to live on...well, Turkey has a bit of experience in that field. |
Any territory Zelenski cedes = victory for Putin and all the sacrifice Ukraine has made will be for nothing. It will also allow Putin time to regroup, learn, re-equip for the next time. He’s lots of European money to do it with and manpower is the least of his problems long term. He hasn’t stopped trying to rebuild the USSR in 20 years. He won’t stop now.
On an interesting note, Russian State tv is such a joy:
https://www.newsweek.com/russia-ukraine-queen-funeral-skabeyeva-1744403 | | | |
| An end to the war in Ukraine possible before Christmas ? on 16:57 - Sep 20 with 2363 views | WeWereZombies |
| An end to the war in Ukraine possible before Christmas ? on 16:19 - Sep 20 by Churchman |
I don’t see how it’s ‘over to you Zelenski’. Given Putin has invaded Ukraine, it’s over to you Vlad, isn’t it? If Putin wants an end to the war he started, he faces a straight choice. Carry on with the military campaign and the more successful economic campaign against Europe or withdraw from Ukraine.
Trying to lever rigged elections into areas he’s captured wouldn’t do it for me if I was Zelenski. The power of course lies with Biden. It’s his kit that’s giving the Russians a hard time militarily. |
That's how it looks to us in the West but remember that Ukraine has borders with Russia and Belarus as well as looking across the Black Sea towards Turkey and Georgia. It may be accepted into the European Union but it will still have a geography of the Caucasus so will have to have some sort of rapprochement with its largest neighbour. I think if Zelensky makes no overt diplomatic moves then he risks some push back from his own people or having the initiative for military moves wrested away from him by the Americans. | |
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| An end to the war in Ukraine possible before Christmas ? on 16:58 - Sep 20 with 2356 views | ericclacton |
| An end to the war in Ukraine possible before Christmas ? on 16:32 - Sep 20 by Kropotkin123 |
Why would Zelensky give up Ukrainian territory, when they are in the ascendency, Russians have been committing genocide in their illegally occupied territories, and Russia is falling apart at home and on the battlefield?
Erdogan is a bit of a joker tbh. On the one hand he meets with Putin to discuss peace, and on the other he sells Ukraine drones that were a significant early contributor to Ukraine inflicting heavy losses on Russia advances. |
He has an enormous bar tab don't forget!
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| An end to the war in Ukraine possible before Christmas ? on 17:04 - Sep 20 with 2331 views | WeWereZombies |
| An end to the war in Ukraine possible before Christmas ? on 16:53 - Sep 20 by Churchman |
Any territory Zelenski cedes = victory for Putin and all the sacrifice Ukraine has made will be for nothing. It will also allow Putin time to regroup, learn, re-equip for the next time. He’s lots of European money to do it with and manpower is the least of his problems long term. He hasn’t stopped trying to rebuild the USSR in 20 years. He won’t stop now.
On an interesting note, Russian State tv is such a joy:
https://www.newsweek.com/russia-ukraine-queen-funeral-skabeyeva-1744403 |
Russian state media has clearly learnt a thing or two from Donald Trump. | |
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| An end to the war in Ukraine possible before Christmas ? on 17:05 - Sep 20 with 2333 views | bluelagos |
Let's hope so. The advances on the battle field are bound to put pressure on Putin for a face saving "agreement".
I wouldn't presume to prejudge what may or may not be offered or be acceptable / accepted. It simply isn't our place, albeit if Ukraine could come to an agreement it would be so much more preferable than an ongoing war.
So difficult watching from the outside, and so many people affected - what are we now, 4m people exiled at the moment? |  |
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| An end to the war in Ukraine possible before Christmas ? on 17:14 - Sep 20 with 2265 views | WeWereZombies |
| An end to the war in Ukraine possible before Christmas ? on 16:38 - Sep 20 by Kropotkin123 |
If what you think is the determiner, why do you think Zelensky will sue for peace? He's been very clear, peace will be achieved when Russia is no longer in Ukrainian territory, and that extends to Crimea. There is no greater opportunity to get their stolen land back than now, when he has the backing of the US, Europe and more. [Post edited 20 Sep 2022 16:38]
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I don't see it as suing for peace, it would be an uncomfortable negotiated settlement (Zelensky offers to stop pulling Putin's pants down in public, Putin thanks him but says that Russian speakers in the Donbas need their own republic and if Zelensky does not agree then he is denying the right of self determination to an ethnic minority, Zelensky won't go for that of course but he can say 'OK, let's talk about it' to quieten down the misinformation campaigns) and they could talk and talk for years and years without any resolution but also without any bloodshed. In the meantime demographics change, economies strengthen and weaken driving migration and all sides hope to see another factor take the lead and diffuse the situation. Hasn't worked in Palestine mind you, but that is a whole other set of issues. [Post edited 20 Sep 2022 17:20]
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| An end to the war in Ukraine possible before Christmas ? on 17:20 - Sep 20 with 2248 views | Guthrum |
The rush to hold referendums in the occupied/separatist zones this weekend to merge with Russia doesn't come across as very conciliatory. Not seen anything to suggest Putin's terms for peace have moderated at all - being pretty much total capitulation by Ukraine.
Erdogan is perhaps trying to be useful (or, at least, busy and important), but I doubt he has much real leverage in Moscow. |  |
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| An end to the war in Ukraine possible before Christmas ? on 17:21 - Sep 20 with 2238 views | WeWereZombies |
| An end to the war in Ukraine possible before Christmas ? on 17:20 - Sep 20 by Guthrum |
The rush to hold referendums in the occupied/separatist zones this weekend to merge with Russia doesn't come across as very conciliatory. Not seen anything to suggest Putin's terms for peace have moderated at all - being pretty much total capitulation by Ukraine.
Erdogan is perhaps trying to be useful (or, at least, busy and important), but I doubt he has much real leverage in Moscow. |
Turkey holds the entrance to the Black Sea, that's important. | |
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| An end to the war in Ukraine possible before Christmas ? on 17:22 - Sep 20 with 2232 views | Churchman |
| An end to the war in Ukraine possible before Christmas ? on 16:57 - Sep 20 by WeWereZombies |
That's how it looks to us in the West but remember that Ukraine has borders with Russia and Belarus as well as looking across the Black Sea towards Turkey and Georgia. It may be accepted into the European Union but it will still have a geography of the Caucasus so will have to have some sort of rapprochement with its largest neighbour. I think if Zelensky makes no overt diplomatic moves then he risks some push back from his own people or having the initiative for military moves wrested away from him by the Americans. |
Belarus is a vassal state. Russia lite. Forget them. Georgia is hardly Putin’s biggest fan. Turkey is playing one against the other for the old dictator Erdogan’s benefit. And he seems to do it rather well tbf.
It’s simple. Surrender or push him back. People are tired, people have died in tragic numbers. Putin has won the nuclear war threat and is winning in terms of impoverishing the west. There’s lots of reasons to push Zelenski into ‘favourable surrender terms’. Get that gas flowing and the dirty money into tory pockets. I see that. Ahhh the sigh of relief - as long as we sleep soundly and forget the killing, stealing, massacres, torture, destruction and theft.
There’s a bigger fly in the ointment though. Putin won’t stop. If you take the appeasement route, it’s best to divide Europe up right now and save the trouble of going through this again.
Just a view. [Post edited 20 Sep 2022 17:24]
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| An end to the war in Ukraine possible before Christmas ? on 17:23 - Sep 20 with 2230 views | Guthrum |
| An end to the war in Ukraine possible before Christmas ? on 17:05 - Sep 20 by bluelagos |
Let's hope so. The advances on the battle field are bound to put pressure on Putin for a face saving "agreement".
I wouldn't presume to prejudge what may or may not be offered or be acceptable / accepted. It simply isn't our place, albeit if Ukraine could come to an agreement it would be so much more preferable than an ongoing war.
So difficult watching from the outside, and so many people affected - what are we now, 4m people exiled at the moment? |
Peace is infinitely preferable to war. However, if that peace is merely a pause to allow the aggressor to regroup and rearm before trying again, bought at the price of emasculating their victim, is it really a benefit? | |
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| An end to the war in Ukraine possible before Christmas ? on 17:27 - Sep 20 with 2208 views | WeWereZombies |
| An end to the war in Ukraine possible before Christmas ? on 17:22 - Sep 20 by Churchman |
Belarus is a vassal state. Russia lite. Forget them. Georgia is hardly Putin’s biggest fan. Turkey is playing one against the other for the old dictator Erdogan’s benefit. And he seems to do it rather well tbf.
It’s simple. Surrender or push him back. People are tired, people have died in tragic numbers. Putin has won the nuclear war threat and is winning in terms of impoverishing the west. There’s lots of reasons to push Zelenski into ‘favourable surrender terms’. Get that gas flowing and the dirty money into tory pockets. I see that. Ahhh the sigh of relief - as long as we sleep soundly and forget the killing, stealing, massacres, torture, destruction and theft.
There’s a bigger fly in the ointment though. Putin won’t stop. If you take the appeasement route, it’s best to divide Europe up right now and save the trouble of going through this again.
Just a view. [Post edited 20 Sep 2022 17:24]
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But, as you say, Georgia is hardly Putin's biggest fan. Ukraine have possibilities (which they can turn into probabilities) of support from the countries closest to them (who also need some form of alliance for their own protection from the great Bear.) Surely better to get the grain exports flowing, the harvest in and next year's planted than live forever in a state of attrition. | |
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| An end to the war in Ukraine possible before Christmas ? on 17:32 - Sep 20 with 2191 views | Guthrum |
| An end to the war in Ukraine possible before Christmas ? on 17:21 - Sep 20 by WeWereZombies |
Turkey holds the entrance to the Black Sea, that's important. |
The straits are already closed to warships not specifically based in the Black Sea. Closing them to commerce as well is unlikely and would cause as much trouble for Ankara as Moscow.
They become less strategically important with Putin's pivot towards China, too. | |
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| An end to the war in Ukraine possible before Christmas ? on 17:42 - Sep 20 with 2162 views | Steve_M |
| An end to the war in Ukraine possible before Christmas ? on 17:20 - Sep 20 by Guthrum |
The rush to hold referendums in the occupied/separatist zones this weekend to merge with Russia doesn't come across as very conciliatory. Not seen anything to suggest Putin's terms for peace have moderated at all - being pretty much total capitulation by Ukraine.
Erdogan is perhaps trying to be useful (or, at least, busy and important), but I doubt he has much real leverage in Moscow. |
Well, quite. This is the most significant event today coupled with the likely full mobilisation in Russia. A debate definite reaction to the last couple of weeks from Putin who is clearly under some pressure domestically, just from the ultra-nationalist right. |  |
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| An end to the war in Ukraine possible before Christmas ? on 17:56 - Sep 20 with 2110 views | Eireannach_gorm |
| An end to the war in Ukraine possible before Christmas ? on 16:53 - Sep 20 by Churchman |
Any territory Zelenski cedes = victory for Putin and all the sacrifice Ukraine has made will be for nothing. It will also allow Putin time to regroup, learn, re-equip for the next time. He’s lots of European money to do it with and manpower is the least of his problems long term. He hasn’t stopped trying to rebuild the USSR in 20 years. He won’t stop now.
On an interesting note, Russian State tv is such a joy:
https://www.newsweek.com/russia-ukraine-queen-funeral-skabeyeva-1744403 |
Definitely see them attacking the UK and Germany/US. 
Russian population lapping this nonsense up. |  | | |
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