| Market reactions. 08:17 - Sep 28 with 3019 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
This is definitely not a post in support of current government policy but....
Surely if all we ever guage proposed radical changes to the norm by is market reaction then all we will ever get is more of the same. And more of the same is definitely not what most people on the planet or the planet itself need. |  |
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| Market reactions. on 09:12 - Sep 28 with 746 views | MattinLondon |
| Market reactions. on 08:41 - Sep 28 by NthQldITFC |
I think we have to look beyond the short-term, however hard and however scary it may be.
What's happening right now is a symptom of the product of over-consumption and over-population, and while of course it is natural to focus on our immediate hardships, it's making us forget about the obvious but uncomfortable reality that we cannot go on with capitalist growth in a finite world. It just isn't possible. I think we pretty much all realise this deep down, if only we can admit it to ourselves.
So we have to change the system, and now might be the best and last opportunity we are going to get to do so. Or at least to have a try. [Post edited 28 Sep 2022 8:52]
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The only way this will happen is if the main parties all come together and put aside their differences. All working together to device long term plans and solutions to the environment, health and education etc etc.
As it stands, party politics is harmful to the country. Party A puts something nice in their glossy manifesto, they get in power, takes a few years to activate their policy then a new leader or new party takes over - new idea, old idea gets canned. Utter waste of resources and time.
I have no faith in the current system, no faith at all and I’m beginning to lose faith in democracy. Our system is too childish, too tribal and too dependent on tradition and status to achieve anything radical to benefit society as a whole. |  | | |
| Market reactions. on 09:17 - Sep 28 with 722 views | giant_stow |
| Market reactions. on 08:31 - Sep 28 by BanksterDebtSlave |
That's just the current fight between Capitalists and über Capitalists! Not ignoring, more making an observation.
How do you think they might react to fundamental wealth redistribution and a world of less stuff based on consumerism? |
How do you think they might react to fundamental wealth redistribution and a world of less stuff based on consumerism?
Probably not very well, *unless* it could be shown to be a net-good outcome overall. Part of the adverse market reaction to the new policies was because of the increasing wealth inequality it would cause, thus making strikes and social strife / breakdown more likely (which would of course hit the bottom line too). Edit: as per the IMF critique. [Post edited 28 Sep 2022 9:21]
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| Market reactions. on 09:19 - Sep 28 with 719 views | giant_stow |
| Market reactions. on 08:41 - Sep 28 by NthQldITFC |
I think we have to look beyond the short-term, however hard and however scary it may be.
What's happening right now is a symptom of the product of over-consumption and over-population, and while of course it is natural to focus on our immediate hardships, it's making us forget about the obvious but uncomfortable reality that we cannot go on with capitalist growth in a finite world. It just isn't possible. I think we pretty much all realise this deep down, if only we can admit it to ourselves.
So we have to change the system, and now might be the best and last opportunity we are going to get to do so. Or at least to have a try. [Post edited 28 Sep 2022 8:52]
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No problem with that - very reasonable. Although again, if the environmental costs of over-consumption were properly reflected in the bottom line of various polluting companies, perhaps the current system could still work. | |
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| Market reactions. on 09:27 - Sep 28 with 710 views | Guthrum |
I see your point, that markets may react badly to any kind of radical policy initiative.
However, a government committed to reform should be able to push through that, justifying their programme and building confidence in the economy at the same time. Confidence is the key issue. If the markets think the idea is barking mad and won't work (as in this instance, alongside blatant inequality), they will react badly. A skilled administration will bring them alongside (and not just with blatant, clumsy bribes).
Also, this has gone way beyond "market reaction", it's full-blown condemnation from pretty much every direction, including by some of those who will benefit from the tax bribes. Plus a serious and practical dent in the country's economic strength. |  |
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| Market reactions. on 09:27 - Sep 28 with 700 views | NthQldITFC |
| Market reactions. on 09:19 - Sep 28 by giant_stow |
No problem with that - very reasonable. Although again, if the environmental costs of over-consumption were properly reflected in the bottom line of various polluting companies, perhaps the current system could still work. |
In my opinion the environmental costs of over-consumption can't be shoved anywhere, because there's nowhere for them to go in a finite system.
We simply have to stop. |  |
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| Market reactions. on 09:31 - Sep 28 with 688 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Market reactions. on 09:12 - Sep 28 by nrb1985 |
As referenced above by Churchmans this has been tried before and with dire results.
See also what's happening in Turkey now.
Read up a bit on some economic lessons from history before making sweeping statements like "radical change". |
You still aren't getting it. My "radical policies" are hypothetical/imagined and by definition have never been tried. The point is, is market reaction always the way that as a society these imagined policies should be guaged? | |
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| Market reactions. on 09:34 - Sep 28 with 690 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Market reactions. on 09:27 - Sep 28 by Guthrum |
I see your point, that markets may react badly to any kind of radical policy initiative.
However, a government committed to reform should be able to push through that, justifying their programme and building confidence in the economy at the same time. Confidence is the key issue. If the markets think the idea is barking mad and won't work (as in this instance, alongside blatant inequality), they will react badly. A skilled administration will bring them alongside (and not just with blatant, clumsy bribes).
Also, this has gone way beyond "market reaction", it's full-blown condemnation from pretty much every direction, including by some of those who will benefit from the tax bribes. Plus a serious and practical dent in the country's economic strength. |
Those who have had the tax breaks though will see any assets and investments decline by far more than any savings. So really who is benefiting from these calamitous policies?
UK aside though, it’s a grim time for all the global markets- the kind of time you don’t want to log in and look at them. Some corrections would be expected as governments have withdrawn QE and COVID related stimulus inflating equity. But this is really quite crazy, not that far from the kind of capitalisations seen during 2020. |  | | |
| Market reactions. on 09:36 - Sep 28 with 688 views | Guthrum |
| Market reactions. on 09:10 - Sep 28 by nrb1985 |
I believe the phrase the analyst at UBS used yesterday to describe this conservative party was "an economic doomsday cult".
They are the very worst and most dangerous combination of both thick and unhinged. |
Another marvellous phrase I saw yesterday: "moron risk premium". The idea being that sterling bond holders need much higher rates to offset the dangers of wild incompetence. | |
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| Market reactions. on 09:41 - Sep 28 with 677 views | nrb1985 |
| Market reactions. on 09:36 - Sep 28 by Guthrum |
Another marvellous phrase I saw yesterday: "moron risk premium". The idea being that sterling bond holders need much higher rates to offset the dangers of wild incompetence. |
Headline on Bloomberg just now - Kwarteng to ask financiers not to bet against the pound.
You actually couldn't make this up. Aren't they supposed to believe in free markets?
I suspect that they may end up reversing this quite quickly. This cannot continue with the level of daily scrutiny and headlines. [Post edited 28 Sep 2022 10:56]
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| Market reactions. on 09:42 - Sep 28 with 672 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Market reactions. on 09:17 - Sep 28 by giant_stow |
How do you think they might react to fundamental wealth redistribution and a world of less stuff based on consumerism?
Probably not very well, *unless* it could be shown to be a net-good outcome overall. Part of the adverse market reaction to the new policies was because of the increasing wealth inequality it would cause, thus making strikes and social strife / breakdown more likely (which would of course hit the bottom line too). Edit: as per the IMF critique. [Post edited 28 Sep 2022 9:21]
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As Matt has just said before you democratic aims and thinking are short termist, the same seems to be true of the markets. We are royally screwed. | |
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| Market reactions. on 09:44 - Sep 28 with 666 views | BlueBadger |
| Market reactions. on 09:34 - Sep 28 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Those who have had the tax breaks though will see any assets and investments decline by far more than any savings. So really who is benefiting from these calamitous policies?
UK aside though, it’s a grim time for all the global markets- the kind of time you don’t want to log in and look at them. Some corrections would be expected as governments have withdrawn QE and COVID related stimulus inflating equity. But this is really quite crazy, not that far from the kind of capitalisations seen during 2020. |
In case anyone is STILL puzzled by what is meant by the term 'trickle down economics'.
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| Market reactions. on 09:44 - Sep 28 with 666 views | nrb1985 |
| Market reactions. on 09:31 - Sep 28 by BanksterDebtSlave |
You still aren't getting it. My "radical policies" are hypothetical/imagined and by definition have never been tried. The point is, is market reaction always the way that as a society these imagined policies should be guaged? |
If the policies have never been tried and are hypothetical how do you know what the market reaction will be and whether indeed we would use the markets as the barometer of how these are being viewed.
As you've been told three times now, the markets are reacting like this because these policies are moronic and have been tried. Especially when you want the market to fund your borrowing... | | | |
| Market reactions. on 09:48 - Sep 28 with 659 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Market reactions. on 09:44 - Sep 28 by BlueBadger |
In case anyone is STILL puzzled by what is meant by the term 'trickle down economics'.
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As I say even the top 1% will be notably worse off unless they’ve got some serious short positions! | | | |
| Market reactions. on 09:49 - Sep 28 with 655 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Market reactions. on 09:44 - Sep 28 by nrb1985 |
If the policies have never been tried and are hypothetical how do you know what the market reaction will be and whether indeed we would use the markets as the barometer of how these are being viewed.
As you've been told three times now, the markets are reacting like this because these policies are moronic and have been tried. Especially when you want the market to fund your borrowing... |
Re your first paragraph...I don't know, I am speculating and starting a discussion on a forum.
Re your second paragraph....I KNOW! | |
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| Market reactions. on 09:53 - Sep 28 with 639 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Market reactions. on 08:26 - Sep 28 by BanksterDebtSlave |
I think you must have missed my first sentence! |
Nope. It doesn't actually say which policy you're referring to. Or how it's going to be good long term. |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Market reactions. on 09:54 - Sep 28 with 633 views | chicoazul |
Agree OP. Agree 101%. |  |
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| Market reactions. on 09:57 - Sep 28 with 636 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Market reactions. on 09:53 - Sep 28 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Nope. It doesn't actually say which policy you're referring to. Or how it's going to be good long term. |
We are doing out of the box, blue sky thinking here Dollers.....some seem to be struggling with the concept. | |
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| Market reactions. on 09:59 - Sep 28 with 628 views | chicoazul |
| Market reactions. on 09:27 - Sep 28 by Guthrum |
I see your point, that markets may react badly to any kind of radical policy initiative.
However, a government committed to reform should be able to push through that, justifying their programme and building confidence in the economy at the same time. Confidence is the key issue. If the markets think the idea is barking mad and won't work (as in this instance, alongside blatant inequality), they will react badly. A skilled administration will bring them alongside (and not just with blatant, clumsy bribes).
Also, this has gone way beyond "market reaction", it's full-blown condemnation from pretty much every direction, including by some of those who will benefit from the tax bribes. Plus a serious and practical dent in the country's economic strength. |
I can’t speak for OP, but if he is saying that *change of any kind will never happen if the main thing we care about are how markets react* then he is spot on. This is a Marxist critique. Perhaps things like GDP for eg, I know it’s not OPs example, but things like that are NOT the best way to measure? Perhaps we do need a radical ideological change? I am not saying the current band of morons have the correct ideology btw. | |
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| Market reactions. on 10:19 - Sep 28 with 601 views | nodge_blue |
Market reactions are consensus reactions. If you try and flow against a tide you'll never win. |  |
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| Market reactions. on 10:49 - Sep 28 with 580 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Market reactions. on 10:19 - Sep 28 by nodge_blue |
Market reactions are consensus reactions. If you try and flow against a tide you'll never win. |
The consensus of who? | |
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| Market reactions. on 10:54 - Sep 28 with 574 views | nrb1985 |
The people who the government have asked to fund their ludicrous borrowing aka "the market" | | | |
| Market reactions. on 11:05 - Sep 28 with 565 views | MattinLondon |
| Market reactions. on 09:42 - Sep 28 by BanksterDebtSlave |
As Matt has just said before you democratic aims and thinking are short termist, the same seems to be true of the markets. We are royally screwed. |
At this present moment I’m not totally disillusioned with democracy but it’s getting that way. My totally uneducated compromised solution - or attempt at a more long term plan would start at abolishing the House of Lords in its current form.
The House of Commons would still be First past the Post but the second chamber would be PR and based on the general election result. So for example, Tories get 35% of the seats, Labour gets 30% etc in the second chamber. Based on that, each party nominates experts on finance, health, culture etc and they seat in the new second chamber for ten years. And, in the new second chamber they all seat at independents with no whips etc. All meetings are recorded, no lobbying allowed.
The second chamber sees long term policies through and as ‘respected’ experts they must have been in their chosen field for at least ten years in a senior position. If the Economic experts believe that the path taken by government is wrong then they will be allowed to stop it but they’ll have to show their working outs. Also, the second chamber will be able to put proposals to the HoC.
There will be no ‘honours’ system where an ex-Mp can transfer onto the new second chamber. Also, I’ll increase the basic pay of a MP to £120k with no expenses and no subsidised meals etc.
This all works in my head. | | | |
| Market reactions. on 14:49 - Sep 28 with 516 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Market reactions. on 09:12 - Sep 28 by MattinLondon |
The only way this will happen is if the main parties all come together and put aside their differences. All working together to device long term plans and solutions to the environment, health and education etc etc.
As it stands, party politics is harmful to the country. Party A puts something nice in their glossy manifesto, they get in power, takes a few years to activate their policy then a new leader or new party takes over - new idea, old idea gets canned. Utter waste of resources and time.
I have no faith in the current system, no faith at all and I’m beginning to lose faith in democracy. Our system is too childish, too tribal and too dependent on tradition and status to achieve anything radical to benefit society as a whole. |
Well said on too childish and too tribal. My dad's a lovely fella and not stupid, but I know he'll vote Tory at the next election despite all this - because they're his 'team'. He's scared of Labour because they fooked the economy in the past... but I'm sure he won't be bothered by what the Tories have done to it now.
It's like a football team, you don't change and you hate the others. I suspect there's a lot of older voters like that (they must be the last people propping this lot up, but unfortunately there's a lot of them). | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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