| Sleep-walking into Fascism? 14:19 - Jan 8 with 8609 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
I know some don't like the phrase being used but can we say it over this?
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| Sleep-walking into Fascism? on 19:34 - Jan 8 with 2138 views | Rob88 |
| Sleep-walking into Fascism? on 19:19 - Jan 8 by Swansea_Blue |
The thought that one day Nadine Dorris may notice you and invite you round for a naked romp in a bath of custard with her and Boris? |
YOLO
Once I’d cleared it with the wife of course. [Post edited 8 Jan 2023 19:36]
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| Sleep-walking into Fascism? on 19:47 - Jan 8 with 2091 views | DJR |
| Sleep-walking into Fascism? on 18:55 - Jan 8 by StokieBlue |
Mine was a serious question as well which you refused to answer. You seem to have no intention of explaining what is clearly a false equivalence which is a shame and typical of the debate we have nowadays.
With regards to my signature, I did it on forums in the 90's including this one and I've seen no reason to stop. One could even argue it allows people to scan the post quickly, see the initials and ignore the content so in some ways it's a public service.
SB |
I think it's a nice practice. |  | | |
| Sleep-walking into Fascism? on 19:53 - Jan 8 with 2077 views | patrickswell |
I'd be more worried if this was playing out under the Tories in a pre-Partygate UK.
That being said, there's a stack of EU-written legislation which is at risk of being torched by the Tories at the end of 2023 which could have a big effect on working people's rights. |  | | |
| Sleep-walking into Fascism? on 15:34 - Jan 9 with 1899 views | HotShotHamish |
I am pretty sure that lots of other European countries already have the same legislation as currently being proposed, which is mainly to ensure there is a minimum level of service in critical industries.
It isn't banning strikes
It isn't banning unions
it really isn't facism
The level of misinformation on this site is truly spectacular! | | | |
| Sleep-walking into Fascism? on 17:54 - Jan 9 with 1810 views | HARRY10 |
| Sleep-walking into Fascism? on 19:53 - Jan 8 by patrickswell |
I'd be more worried if this was playing out under the Tories in a pre-Partygate UK.
That being said, there's a stack of EU-written legislation which is at risk of being torched by the Tories at the end of 2023 which could have a big effect on working people's rights. |
Given that removal of EU legislation is about as easy as extracxting one egg from an omelette of a dozen or so, it is merely a Tory wet dream.. Guven how the UK has not been abke to sign any new deals and has been reliant upon rolling over' previous EU trade deals it is ptretty much a meaningless exercise.
What it is in reality is a feeble attempt by the Tories to set up a scapegoat when it all falls apart. The wicked Lords/metropoiltan elite, Cof E/BBC/Wokists/Judiciary etc have blocked the swill of the people.
Just as in the US and Brazil a dying rightwing is lashing out like a monster pike being reeled in.
Unlike the others a bunch of senile old codgers waving Union Jacks (made in China) are not going to storm Parliament
"What do we want, where are we.... ask matron "
The right has never liked democracy, as we have seen in the UK recently. But lies cannot be sustined indefinitely, even with the backing of a rightwing media. And I don't doubt that like the US where insurrectionists are now being jailed - 987 charged, 335 found guilty so far the UK will bring to trial those fronting up the Leave campaign.
Not for the justice of Nurembourg or the summary (on the spot) justice elsewhere across Europe but to have the truth brought out into the open. Who really funded the Leave campaign, who took back-handers and how much of the lies were told knowing they were lies. Expect much the same with the PPE/track and trace scams. | | | |
| Sleep-walking into Fascism? on 18:43 - Jan 9 with 1807 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Sleep-walking into Fascism? on 19:32 - Jan 8 by Rob88 |
No no, I was at a family gathering for my nephews birthday.
Many countries under the right conditions make it a dismissible offence. Some countries make it a crime for some sectors under certain conditions.
https://www.asi.is/media/7581/Strike_rules_in_the_EU27.pdf
It doesn’t look like Sunak is proposing to set European precedent here. [Post edited 8 Jan 2023 19:37]
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I hope you enjoyed your family celebration.
The European precedent is to propose this level of anti-strike action, making strikes illegal, and legislation against legitimate action by unions. The last time a European government did was Berlin, and it was 1934.
I had a scan through the article here but I cannot see any mention of any of those countries making all strikes illegal and a dismissible offence at that. Please do explain which one of those countries has made that change to legislation. Currently, you seem to be simply confirming the accuracy of that claim.
A very apt quote:
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out–because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out–because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out–because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me–and there was no one left to speak for me.
–Martin Niemöller | |
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| Sleep-walking into Fascism? on 18:55 - Jan 9 with 1769 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Sleep-walking into Fascism? on 15:34 - Jan 9 by HotShotHamish |
I am pretty sure that lots of other European countries already have the same legislation as currently being proposed, which is mainly to ensure there is a minimum level of service in critical industries.
It isn't banning strikes
It isn't banning unions
it really isn't facism
The level of misinformation on this site is truly spectacular! |
The one thing you are right on, is that it is them trying to play the media as a hard-line Thatcherite government and they won't completely do all they are proposing.
I didn't see anyone say it is banning unions ... it is designed to demonise and disempower unions (actually employees as that is who they represent). Know your place, pleb, and keep on making bigger profits for those at the top.
You might say it isn't fascism but it a move in that direction from a Government still demonising immigrants and the poor.
"I do not think that legislation is the way that you bring an end to industrial disputes. You have to get in the room and compromise."
The head of rail union ASLEF, Mick Whelan, told Reuters Britain already had among the worst trade union laws in Europe.
"Surely people have a right to strike. I don't see any pernicious legislation coming forward to deal with bad employers," he said. | |
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| Sleep-walking into Fascism? on 19:16 - Jan 9 with 1745 views | Rob88 |
| Sleep-walking into Fascism? on 18:43 - Jan 9 by Nthsuffolkblue |
I hope you enjoyed your family celebration.
The European precedent is to propose this level of anti-strike action, making strikes illegal, and legislation against legitimate action by unions. The last time a European government did was Berlin, and it was 1934.
I had a scan through the article here but I cannot see any mention of any of those countries making all strikes illegal and a dismissible offence at that. Please do explain which one of those countries has made that change to legislation. Currently, you seem to be simply confirming the accuracy of that claim.
A very apt quote:
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out–because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out–because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out–because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me–and there was no one left to speak for me.
–Martin Niemöller |
You need to read what I posted.
I didn’t say all strikes illegal and dismissible offence.
The government haven’t even said that so I don’t know where that has come from.
Don’t let your prejudices blind you from reality.
-Rob88 | | | |
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| Sleep-walking into Fascism? on 19:34 - Jan 9 with 1706 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Sleep-walking into Fascism? on 19:16 - Jan 9 by Rob88 |
You need to read what I posted.
I didn’t say all strikes illegal and dismissible offence.
The government haven’t even said that so I don’t know where that has come from.
Don’t let your prejudices blind you from reality.
-Rob88 |
Ah, well that is what has been mooted and what the OP is referring to.
Of course, the detail is not revealed yet so it is jumping the gun and we should see what the detail actually turns out to be.
I don't think there is any arguing against this Government being radically anti-union and anti-worker in favour of big business. It is, after all, the raison d'être of the Conservative Party. | |
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| Sleep-walking into Fascism? on 20:01 - Jan 9 with 1665 views | HARRY10 |
| Sleep-walking into Fascism? on 14:46 - Jan 8 by Rob88 |
Yes I do….but I’m not doing your homework for you. |
err, the onus is on the person making a claim
ptherwise by your rightie 'logic' I can claim that I am currently sat 0n an elephant
which must be true because no one who disbelieves me can prove that I am not | | | |
| Sleep-walking into Fascism? on 20:51 - Jan 9 with 1625 views | Rob88 |
| Sleep-walking into Fascism? on 20:01 - Jan 9 by HARRY10 |
err, the onus is on the person making a claim
ptherwise by your rightie 'logic' I can claim that I am currently sat 0n an elephant
which must be true because no one who disbelieves me can prove that I am not |
I assume that must apply to the original poster as well? Or is it just those who dare to share an opposing view to the usual twtd sect? I assume you are going to message them as well?
You might want to check bottom of page two.
But your’e not sitting on an elephant are you, you are just being silly, you silly sausage. [Post edited 9 Jan 2023 20:58]
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| Sleep-walking into Fascism? on 21:31 - Jan 9 with 1578 views | Kropotkin123 |
I think we should recognize it for what it is. A capitalize government making authoritarian rules to protect private capitalists against green protests.
Clearly nothing to do with fascism, and explaining it in those terms only makes the claims seem ridiculous. |  |
| Submit your 1-24 league prediction here -https://www.twtd.co.uk/forum/514096/page:1 - for the opportunity to get a free Ipswich top. | | Poll: | Would you rather | | Blog: | Round Four: Eagle |
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| Sleep-walking into Fascism? on 21:55 - Jan 9 with 1526 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Sleep-walking into Fascism? on 21:31 - Jan 9 by Kropotkin123 |
I think we should recognize it for what it is. A capitalize government making authoritarian rules to protect private capitalists against green protests.
Clearly nothing to do with fascism, and explaining it in those terms only makes the claims seem ridiculous. |
Against green protests?
We are talking legislation being brought to deter/prevent/demonise widespread strike action that is being taken against repeated real-terms pay cuts and chronic underfunding of public services.
The authoritarian legislation to remove the right of protest was previous legislation not their next step.
First they came for the immigrants, and I did not speak out–because I was not a immigrant.
Then they came for the protestors, and I did not speak out–because I was not a protestor.
Then they came for the poor, and I did not speak out–because I was not poor.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out–because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me–and there was no one left to speak for me. | |
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| Sleep-walking into Fascism? on 09:17 - Jan 10 with 1421 views | Cheltenham_Blue |
| Sleep-walking into Fascism? on 20:51 - Jan 9 by Rob88 |
I assume that must apply to the original poster as well? Or is it just those who dare to share an opposing view to the usual twtd sect? I assume you are going to message them as well?
You might want to check bottom of page two.
But your’e not sitting on an elephant are you, you are just being silly, you silly sausage. [Post edited 9 Jan 2023 20:58]
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| Sleep-walking into Fascism? on 11:06 - Jan 10 with 1390 views | DJR |
Liz Truss introduced a minimum service level Bill for transport workers (which was dropped but will presumably be widened too include the NHS etc).
As regards it consequences for transport workers, the official Government impact assessment (tucked away) concluded its effect was
(a) Lost utility arising from the restricted right to strike (direct), and
(b) Indirect cost associated with less strength of bargaining power in relation to workplace disputes, which could result in lower pay and working conditions than they might otherwise have achieved (indirect)
They know what they're doing. It's not just a restriction on strikes, it's designed to weaken workers' bargaining powers.
The thing is that these days the vast majority of the workforce have no unions batting for them (with the result that, say, zero hours contracts are common and sick pay is a rarity). The intention is clearly to emasculate those workers who do have some power, notwithstanding very restrictive labour laws to begin with.
The question is, once it has started, where will it end? [Post edited 10 Jan 2023 11:21]
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| Sleep-walking into Fascism? on 15:29 - Jan 10 with 1299 views | Kropotkin123 |
| Sleep-walking into Fascism? on 21:55 - Jan 9 by Nthsuffolkblue |
Against green protests?
We are talking legislation being brought to deter/prevent/demonise widespread strike action that is being taken against repeated real-terms pay cuts and chronic underfunding of public services.
The authoritarian legislation to remove the right of protest was previous legislation not their next step.
First they came for the immigrants, and I did not speak out–because I was not a immigrant.
Then they came for the protestors, and I did not speak out–because I was not a protestor.
Then they came for the poor, and I did not speak out–because I was not poor.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out–because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me–and there was no one left to speak for me. |
Either way, it is a capitalist regime that is responsible and should be held accountable. I'm not saying don't speak out. I encourage you to call it out and vote for people to reverse it. But hold the correct people accountable. Don't feel the need for something to be fascist for it to be terrible. | |
| Submit your 1-24 league prediction here -https://www.twtd.co.uk/forum/514096/page:1 - for the opportunity to get a free Ipswich top. | | Poll: | Would you rather | | Blog: | Round Four: Eagle |
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| Sleep-walking into Fascism? on 15:41 - Jan 10 with 1266 views | HARRY10 |
| Sleep-walking into Fascism? on 11:06 - Jan 10 by DJR |
Liz Truss introduced a minimum service level Bill for transport workers (which was dropped but will presumably be widened too include the NHS etc).
As regards it consequences for transport workers, the official Government impact assessment (tucked away) concluded its effect was
(a) Lost utility arising from the restricted right to strike (direct), and
(b) Indirect cost associated with less strength of bargaining power in relation to workplace disputes, which could result in lower pay and working conditions than they might otherwise have achieved (indirect)
They know what they're doing. It's not just a restriction on strikes, it's designed to weaken workers' bargaining powers.
The thing is that these days the vast majority of the workforce have no unions batting for them (with the result that, say, zero hours contracts are common and sick pay is a rarity). The intention is clearly to emasculate those workers who do have some power, notwithstanding very restrictive labour laws to begin with.
The question is, once it has started, where will it end? [Post edited 10 Jan 2023 11:21]
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All too reminiscent of Germany in the spring of 1945 when fanatical SS and Hitler Youth were arresting and executing so called defeatist Germans in the dying days of the war..
The Tories know they are on the way out, for quite a while it would now seem, so are trying to bring in legislation before it is too late. Industrial action is being provoked in order to enact what brexit was supposed to facilitate. - ever tighter control/removal of workers rights. The facade of lower food prices, higher wages and levelling up having long been dropped.
The concern is how much a Starmer government will accept any of this, with it being 'already passed into law'. | | | |
| Sleep-walking into Fascism? on 15:44 - Jan 10 with 1257 views | positivity |
| Sleep-walking into Fascism? on 15:41 - Jan 10 by HARRY10 |
All too reminiscent of Germany in the spring of 1945 when fanatical SS and Hitler Youth were arresting and executing so called defeatist Germans in the dying days of the war..
The Tories know they are on the way out, for quite a while it would now seem, so are trying to bring in legislation before it is too late. Industrial action is being provoked in order to enact what brexit was supposed to facilitate. - ever tighter control/removal of workers rights. The facade of lower food prices, higher wages and levelling up having long been dropped.
The concern is how much a Starmer government will accept any of this, with it being 'already passed into law'. |
labour have already said they'll repeal it, but better it doesn't get on the statute book in the first place... | |
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| Sleep-walking into Fascism? on 16:12 - Jan 10 with 1208 views | DJR |
The Strikes (Minimum Service Levels) Bill has now been published, and a copy is available on the following link.
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/cbill/58-03/0222/220222.pdf
Speaking as a former Parliamentary drafter, it contains no detail but instead leaves detail to secondary legislation which is not subject to the same scrutiny as primary legislation. As such it is likely to be heavily opposed in the Lords, particularly, given that the right to strike is enshrined in human rights law. What is particularly concerning is that there is nothing on the face of the Bill to prevent secondary legislation from providing, say, that the minimum service level for railways is 90% of trains.
It strikes me that no previous Government or Attorney General would have even contemplated such legislation (and certainly not legislation in that form), but we now have a Government and Attorney General (Braverman) who don't believe in the rule of law.
Don't forget that Mrs Thatcher, who was a strong believer in the rule of law, did not resort to such legislation during the miners strike even though the argument could have been that, without a minimum service level, the power stations would run out of coal.
This is a battle worth fighting, and anyone who believes in democracy and the rule of law (which is being fought for in the Ukraine) should join the battle.
EDIT: With all the comings and goings, I'd forgotten that Braverman is now Home Secretary but she was Attorney General until recently, and was and is very cavalier when it comes to the rule of law: who can forget the legislation to override international law? The current Attorney General (Victoria Prentis) is a lightweight who no doubt doesn't care about the rule of law either, as appears to be the case with many in the Tory party since Johnson came to power. [Post edited 10 Jan 2023 16:32]
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| Sleep-walking into Fascism? on 16:14 - Jan 10 with 1201 views | XYZ |
| Sleep-walking into Fascism? on 16:12 - Jan 10 by DJR |
The Strikes (Minimum Service Levels) Bill has now been published, and a copy is available on the following link.
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/cbill/58-03/0222/220222.pdf
Speaking as a former Parliamentary drafter, it contains no detail but instead leaves detail to secondary legislation which is not subject to the same scrutiny as primary legislation. As such it is likely to be heavily opposed in the Lords, particularly, given that the right to strike is enshrined in human rights law. What is particularly concerning is that there is nothing on the face of the Bill to prevent secondary legislation from providing, say, that the minimum service level for railways is 90% of trains.
It strikes me that no previous Government or Attorney General would have even contemplated such legislation (and certainly not legislation in that form), but we now have a Government and Attorney General (Braverman) who don't believe in the rule of law.
Don't forget that Mrs Thatcher, who was a strong believer in the rule of law, did not resort to such legislation during the miners strike even though the argument could have been that, without a minimum service level, the power stations would run out of coal.
This is a battle worth fighting, and anyone who believes in democracy and the rule of law (which is being fought for in the Ukraine) should join the battle.
EDIT: With all the comings and goings, I'd forgotten that Braverman is now Home Secretary but she was Attorney General until recently, and was and is very cavalier when it comes to the rule of law: who can forget the legislation to override international law? The current Attorney General (Victoria Prentis) is a lightweight who no doubt doesn't care about the rule of law either, as appears to be the case with many in the Tory party since Johnson came to power. [Post edited 10 Jan 2023 16:32]
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Valuable and informative post.
Braverman is now Home Secretary. | | | |
| Sleep-walking into Fascism? on 16:23 - Jan 10 with 1185 views | DJR |
| Sleep-walking into Fascism? on 16:14 - Jan 10 by XYZ |
Valuable and informative post.
Braverman is now Home Secretary. |
Good point. You will see I've edited my post accordingly. | | | |
| Sleep-walking into Fascism? on 20:26 - Jan 10 with 1096 views | DJR |
The TUC are planning a day of action on Wednesday, 1 February against the proposed anti-strike legislation. I'll be aiming to show support on the day.
Here's a link to a petition which can be signed.
https://labourunions.org.uk/righttostrikeshare/ | | | |
| Sleep-walking into Fascism? on 16:01 - Jan 14 with 838 views | Kropotkin123 |
Yeah, this is more what is happening. Well explained. | |
| Submit your 1-24 league prediction here -https://www.twtd.co.uk/forum/514096/page:1 - for the opportunity to get a free Ipswich top. | | Poll: | Would you rather | | Blog: | Round Four: Eagle |
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| Sleep-walking into Fascism? on 19:55 - Jan 14 with 793 views | Rob88 |
Yea because they’re an impartial source. | | | |
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