| Hospital beds 13:33 - Jan 12 with 3883 views | DJR |
The graph on the following link tells you all you need to know. Only Sweden is below us, but they obviously have a much more healthy population than we do. As the article states, "bed capacity will remain a critical limiting factor in the ability of the NHS to recover." And it knocks on the head the Tory lie that Europe faces similar problems. Indeed, the German press is apparently full of stories about the collapse of the NHS.
https://www.bma.org.uk/advice-and-support/nhs-delivery-and-workforce/pressures/n
This from the article is perhaps key.
"Combined with staffing shortages, an insufficient core bed stock means that hospitals are less able to cope with large influxes of patients, for example during winter or periods of high demand.
This has ultimately impacted hospitals’ ability to provide safe and timely care and remains a major factor in growing backlogs."
So it is not really bed-blocking that is the problem, although that clearly adds to the problem and is itself a result of Tory policies. [Post edited 12 Jan 2023 13:40]
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| Hospital beds on 13:38 - Jan 12 with 2840 views | StokieBlue |
SB |  |
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| Hospital beds on 13:54 - Jan 12 with 2780 views | ElephantintheRoom |
Bed blocking IS a problem because the care system has been run down and destroyed. There is nowhere for elderly patients to go and the way the NHS is financed means GOs are often unwilling or unable to take on the extra cost of discharged patients You could triple the number of beds and the problem would simply be three times worse. It’s very misleading to compare hospital bed numbers because most countries have far better community care than we do, empower pharmacists and generally have far more staff in hospitals and the community. Beds are meaningless without people and equipment to run them. |  |
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| Hospital beds on 14:13 - Jan 12 with 2756 views | Churchman |
Yes, the NHS is badly run and NHS England should have been replaced years ago. Yes, how the budgeting works - different pots of money for NHS and social care doesn’t help with things like bed blocking, let alone the detrimental effects on patients ((my mother nearly died in Ipswich hospital through her having nowhere suitable to go. All convalescent places were closed after 2010). Yes, supply driven provision rather than demand led doesn’t help.
But the fact of the matter is that we spend less on healthcare provision per person than most peer countries. The budget (about £200bn for NHS and social care against a GDP of £3tn?) isn’t enough. You can be is efficient as you like, but cannot buy a Mercedes on Lada money. Simple maths. Limited budget, limited service. No money, no beds. That’s before you get to the negative effects of Brexit on staffing etc.
Sunak and co repeatedly come out with we’ve done this, we’ve done that when the reality is that they are not interested in the NHS. They never have been. They’ve been starving it of money in real terms for years. They even objected to the GOSH section in the Olympic Games opening ceremony, but had to cave in when Danny Boyle threatened to walk away.
It all comes back to the tory ethos of 2010 that the private sector can do anything more cheaply, more efficiently and quicker than the dead hand of the public sector. They want the NHS to fail so that they can move to the nirvana of if you want it, pay for it. The longer the waiting lists the happier they are. If you can’t afford it, you don’t deserve to have it. Work harder, get on your bike, get a second job.
It sickens me that people work in NHS/Social care doing amazing jobs I wouldn’t be capable of in a million years get so little support. It disgusts me that the politicians treat them with such contempt. Clap for the NHS but b#gger off if you want a living wage for doing literally life saving work.
Rant for the day done. |  | | |
| Hospital beds on 14:35 - Jan 12 with 2683 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Hospital beds on 14:13 - Jan 12 by Churchman |
Yes, the NHS is badly run and NHS England should have been replaced years ago. Yes, how the budgeting works - different pots of money for NHS and social care doesn’t help with things like bed blocking, let alone the detrimental effects on patients ((my mother nearly died in Ipswich hospital through her having nowhere suitable to go. All convalescent places were closed after 2010). Yes, supply driven provision rather than demand led doesn’t help.
But the fact of the matter is that we spend less on healthcare provision per person than most peer countries. The budget (about £200bn for NHS and social care against a GDP of £3tn?) isn’t enough. You can be is efficient as you like, but cannot buy a Mercedes on Lada money. Simple maths. Limited budget, limited service. No money, no beds. That’s before you get to the negative effects of Brexit on staffing etc.
Sunak and co repeatedly come out with we’ve done this, we’ve done that when the reality is that they are not interested in the NHS. They never have been. They’ve been starving it of money in real terms for years. They even objected to the GOSH section in the Olympic Games opening ceremony, but had to cave in when Danny Boyle threatened to walk away.
It all comes back to the tory ethos of 2010 that the private sector can do anything more cheaply, more efficiently and quicker than the dead hand of the public sector. They want the NHS to fail so that they can move to the nirvana of if you want it, pay for it. The longer the waiting lists the happier they are. If you can’t afford it, you don’t deserve to have it. Work harder, get on your bike, get a second job.
It sickens me that people work in NHS/Social care doing amazing jobs I wouldn’t be capable of in a million years get so little support. It disgusts me that the politicians treat them with such contempt. Clap for the NHS but b#gger off if you want a living wage for doing literally life saving work.
Rant for the day done. |
It's no better up here. The Scottish Labour leader is blaming the SNP Government.
Maybe it's time to start thinking outside the box. They did that in the Netherlands ion 2006 and Dutch health care has never been outside the top 3 best health providers in the world ever since. |  |
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| Hospital beds on 15:55 - Jan 12 with 2600 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Hospital beds on 14:35 - Jan 12 by GlasgowBlue |
It's no better up here. The Scottish Labour leader is blaming the SNP Government.
Maybe it's time to start thinking outside the box. They did that in the Netherlands ion 2006 and Dutch health care has never been outside the top 3 best health providers in the world ever since. |
It needs completely dismantling.
Fiddling with the NHS used to be a vote loser, now it would be a vote winner because everyone knows it's sh1te.
As mentioned also on here, bed blocking is a big problem - there is nowhere for old people to go and die, I don't know this for a fact but I guess families in other countries may look after their elderly parents in house more.
Don't get me started on the criminal waste of funds through procurement - in fact, I'm not even sure that the NHS is actually underfunded - it's massively mis managed. |  |
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| Hospital beds on 16:54 - Jan 12 with 2534 views | HARRY10 |
| Hospital beds on 15:55 - Jan 12 by Lord_Lucan |
It needs completely dismantling.
Fiddling with the NHS used to be a vote loser, now it would be a vote winner because everyone knows it's sh1te.
As mentioned also on here, bed blocking is a big problem - there is nowhere for old people to go and die, I don't know this for a fact but I guess families in other countries may look after their elderly parents in house more.
Don't get me started on the criminal waste of funds through procurement - in fact, I'm not even sure that the NHS is actually underfunded - it's massively mis managed. |
The sort of guff you might read in the Mail.
it is not sh ite, it is massively underfunded as
"Average day-to-day health spending in the UK between 2010 and 2019 was £3,005 per person — 18% below the EU14 average of £3,655.
If UK spending per person had matched the EU14 average, then the UK would have spent an average of £227bn a year on health between 2010 and 2019 — £40bn higher than actual average annual spending during this period (£187bn).
Matching spending per head to France or Germany would have led to an additional £40bn and £73bn (21% to 39% increase respectively) of total health spending each year in the UK.
Over the past decade, the UK had a lower level of capital investment in health care compared with the EU14 countries for which data are available. Between 2010 and 2019, average health capital investment in the UK was £5.8bn a year. If the UK had matched other EU14 countries’ average investment in health capital (as a share of GDP), the UK would have invested £33bn more between 2010 and 2019 (around 55% higher than actual investment during that period)."
The Health Foundation Nov 2022
The NHS stands up well aganst other better funded sytems, though once again -
"The NHS showed pockets of good performance, including in health service outcomes, but spending, patient safety, and population health were all below average to average at best. Taken together, these results suggest that if the NHS wants to achieve comparable health outcomes at a time of growing demographic pressure, it may need to spend more to increase the supply of labour and long term care and reduce the declining trend in social spending to match levels of comparator countries." British Medical Journal
The reality is that the government of the last (nearly) 13 years bares sole responsibilty. It cut nurses bursaries and then blocked verseas nurses. Result, huge sums of money are being paid to agencies to provide staff rather than to nursing staff directly
Odd how those who work in this particular field and have access to rleevant data have a different view to those who dont.... or perhaps not. | | | |
| Hospital beds on 17:32 - Jan 12 with 2505 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Hospital beds on 16:54 - Jan 12 by HARRY10 |
The sort of guff you might read in the Mail.
it is not sh ite, it is massively underfunded as
"Average day-to-day health spending in the UK between 2010 and 2019 was £3,005 per person — 18% below the EU14 average of £3,655.
If UK spending per person had matched the EU14 average, then the UK would have spent an average of £227bn a year on health between 2010 and 2019 — £40bn higher than actual average annual spending during this period (£187bn).
Matching spending per head to France or Germany would have led to an additional £40bn and £73bn (21% to 39% increase respectively) of total health spending each year in the UK.
Over the past decade, the UK had a lower level of capital investment in health care compared with the EU14 countries for which data are available. Between 2010 and 2019, average health capital investment in the UK was £5.8bn a year. If the UK had matched other EU14 countries’ average investment in health capital (as a share of GDP), the UK would have invested £33bn more between 2010 and 2019 (around 55% higher than actual investment during that period)."
The Health Foundation Nov 2022
The NHS stands up well aganst other better funded sytems, though once again -
"The NHS showed pockets of good performance, including in health service outcomes, but spending, patient safety, and population health were all below average to average at best. Taken together, these results suggest that if the NHS wants to achieve comparable health outcomes at a time of growing demographic pressure, it may need to spend more to increase the supply of labour and long term care and reduce the declining trend in social spending to match levels of comparator countries." British Medical Journal
The reality is that the government of the last (nearly) 13 years bares sole responsibilty. It cut nurses bursaries and then blocked verseas nurses. Result, huge sums of money are being paid to agencies to provide staff rather than to nursing staff directly
Odd how those who work in this particular field and have access to rleevant data have a different view to those who dont.... or perhaps not. |
Thank you for your polite reply.
I'll take a look at some figures when I get a chance but - There is little point in throwing money at it if it continues to be mis managed, which it plainly is.
Off right this minute for a nice Thai.
Laters. | |
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| Hospital beds on 17:50 - Jan 12 with 2431 views | HARRY10 |
| Hospital beds on 17:32 - Jan 12 by Lord_Lucan |
Thank you for your polite reply.
I'll take a look at some figures when I get a chance but - There is little point in throwing money at it if it continues to be mis managed, which it plainly is.
Off right this minute for a nice Thai.
Laters. |
Perhaps you could look up instances of mismanagement while you are about it - and maybe if you find any perhaps wonder why after Jeremy Hunts (disasterous) reforms of '12-18 they now exist.
Otherwise more evidence of cuts and underfunding from another trusted medical source
https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/news-item/when-the-price-isn-t-right-how-cuts-i | | | |
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| Hospital beds on 20:14 - Jan 12 with 2359 views | Lord_Lucan |
You seem to be arguing with me when I am to a large point agreeing with you inasmuch as the NHS is knackered - the only difference is that I raise the subject of mismanagement.
With regards to underfunding I don’t know, I haven’t read the figures - but I’m not discounting it. The reason why I initially mentioned mismanagement is because that is the very first thing I would look at. No point in doing anything if it’s being mismanaged.
As for Jeremy Hunt - the bloke is a complete t0sser. | |
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| Hospital beds on 21:13 - Jan 12 with 2322 views | BlueBadger |
| Hospital beds on 15:55 - Jan 12 by Lord_Lucan |
It needs completely dismantling.
Fiddling with the NHS used to be a vote loser, now it would be a vote winner because everyone knows it's sh1te.
As mentioned also on here, bed blocking is a big problem - there is nowhere for old people to go and die, I don't know this for a fact but I guess families in other countries may look after their elderly parents in house more.
Don't get me started on the criminal waste of funds through procurement - in fact, I'm not even sure that the NHS is actually underfunded - it's massively mis managed. |
So, what you're basically saying is 'don't vote Tory'. |  |
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| Hospital beds on 21:21 - Jan 12 with 2305 views | HARRY10 |
| Hospital beds on 20:14 - Jan 12 by Lord_Lucan |
You seem to be arguing with me when I am to a large point agreeing with you inasmuch as the NHS is knackered - the only difference is that I raise the subject of mismanagement.
With regards to underfunding I don’t know, I haven’t read the figures - but I’m not discounting it. The reason why I initially mentioned mismanagement is because that is the very first thing I would look at. No point in doing anything if it’s being mismanaged.
As for Jeremy Hunt - the bloke is a complete t0sser. |
If correcting you is arguing, then yes
"The reason why I initially mentioned mismanagement is because that is the very first thing I would look at"
Whereas earlier there was no talk of 'looking at it". You rcomment was "I'm not even sure that the NHS is actually underfunded - it's massively mis managed." A statement of fact, as far as you were concerned.
What part of the figures given showing cuts and underfunding causen you not to believe 'the NHS is actually underfunded' ? Those figures are not from one source, they are outlined from every published source. And why would any crrdible source risk losing that credibility by putting out false information, when it can and is easily checked ?
What I would suggest is that the NHS is being suprerbly managed given the underfunding and the results it delivers, backed by an underpaid but totally committed staff.
I'm afraid that it is unfounded comments (as your first one) that muddy the waters around the NHS. Comments that are usually to be found in the rightwing press, to pander to cranks who see wrong in everything that smacks of collective action.
What we are seeing is society and the economy breaking after years of ideological thinking being put in place. A report today speaks of how backing for leaving the EU in the 27 remaining countries has fallen yet again. Which sits at odds with Farges lie that the UK would be the first of many leaving, causing the EU to collapse.
One of the notable drivers of that thought is how the UK is being seen post Brexit. How the burden of increased red tape, cost and regulation is slowjng down the UK economy, as is the blocking of a nearby and much needed workforce.
Comments that relied upon misinformation (lies mostly) has put us in this precarious postion. In that light it has become imperative that we ensure what is said is accurate, and not some glib comment that fits in with the golf club bar.
If not for ourselves then at least we owe it to our children and the coming generations to not get it wrong again. Never have we had such ready access to accurate information, but then never have we had so much misinformation also being peddled.
Brexit should have taught us which is which. | | | |
| Hospital beds on 21:29 - Jan 12 with 2296 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Hospital beds on 21:13 - Jan 12 by BlueBadger |
So, what you're basically saying is 'don't vote Tory'. |
Well I was trying to have a discussion without bias but it takes all sorts I suppose.
I would look at the party based on their current value rather than what scarf you have strangling your neck - but on the current mob I would say yes, at this very point if I were to vote purely on NHS I would vote Labour - gotta say though I wouldn’t be holding my breath.
It’s not even wholly about political power, it’s about the way the NHS operates from the bottom upwards.
Here’s a very small thing - when I was on crutches why couldn’t I give them back once I needed them no more? I realise that there is an issue with damaged items but surely this could be got around by stress testing.
Why do hospitals have preferred suppliers who are massively ripping them off with anything from paper clips to building extensions? | |
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| Hospital beds on 21:40 - Jan 12 with 2278 views | HARRY10 |
"Why do hospitals have preferred suppliers who are massively ripping them off with anything from paper clips to building extensions? "
Because that is how the Tory party have been operating - VIP or something. Otherwise I think you are straying into the urban myth side of things, again - unless you have evidence
Meanwhile
"Steve Barclay has privately conceded he will have to increase his pay offer to NHS staff, in a U-turn that may help to end the growing wave of strikes."
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jan/12/steve-barclay-privately-concedes | | | |
| Hospital beds on 21:45 - Jan 12 with 2271 views | WestStanderLaLaLa |
Both parties deliberately trashing my arse |  |
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| Hospital beds on 21:47 - Jan 12 with 2256 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Hospital beds on 21:40 - Jan 12 by HARRY10 |
"Why do hospitals have preferred suppliers who are massively ripping them off with anything from paper clips to building extensions? "
Because that is how the Tory party have been operating - VIP or something. Otherwise I think you are straying into the urban myth side of things, again - unless you have evidence
Meanwhile
"Steve Barclay has privately conceded he will have to increase his pay offer to NHS staff, in a U-turn that may help to end the growing wave of strikes."
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jan/12/steve-barclay-privately-concedes |
Preferred suppliers are not a Tory thing.
Preferred suppliers are supposedly a way to ensure good product and service but it has resulted in the antithesis
The opposite way of course is to produce everything in house, maybe have government control over all manufacture and supply of NHS goods - this of course also doesn’t work because when the man is skint your crutches price doubles.
Plain as day what is needed - strong, visible and accountable management. [Post edited 12 Jan 2023 21:53]
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| Hospital beds on 21:55 - Jan 12 with 2220 views | HARRY10 |
BOTH parties are not trashing the NHS - stop peddling lies.
The figures for beds take no account of their changing use, where mental health patients are no longer using hospital beds but are treated in the community. Much has been the case with elderly patients.
The measure that counts is how much investment in real terms is being put in.
Changes in health spending per capita, adjusted for demographic changes
Time period, political party
Average annual change in per capita health spending (adjusted)
1979—1997, Conservatives +2.03%
1997—2010, Labour +5.67%
2010—2015, Con/Lib coalition -0.07%
2015—2021, Conservatives -0.03%
So increased by Labout, cut by the Tories | | | |
| Hospital beds on 22:31 - Jan 12 with 2185 views | WestSussexBlue |
| Hospital beds on 14:13 - Jan 12 by Churchman |
Yes, the NHS is badly run and NHS England should have been replaced years ago. Yes, how the budgeting works - different pots of money for NHS and social care doesn’t help with things like bed blocking, let alone the detrimental effects on patients ((my mother nearly died in Ipswich hospital through her having nowhere suitable to go. All convalescent places were closed after 2010). Yes, supply driven provision rather than demand led doesn’t help.
But the fact of the matter is that we spend less on healthcare provision per person than most peer countries. The budget (about £200bn for NHS and social care against a GDP of £3tn?) isn’t enough. You can be is efficient as you like, but cannot buy a Mercedes on Lada money. Simple maths. Limited budget, limited service. No money, no beds. That’s before you get to the negative effects of Brexit on staffing etc.
Sunak and co repeatedly come out with we’ve done this, we’ve done that when the reality is that they are not interested in the NHS. They never have been. They’ve been starving it of money in real terms for years. They even objected to the GOSH section in the Olympic Games opening ceremony, but had to cave in when Danny Boyle threatened to walk away.
It all comes back to the tory ethos of 2010 that the private sector can do anything more cheaply, more efficiently and quicker than the dead hand of the public sector. They want the NHS to fail so that they can move to the nirvana of if you want it, pay for it. The longer the waiting lists the happier they are. If you can’t afford it, you don’t deserve to have it. Work harder, get on your bike, get a second job.
It sickens me that people work in NHS/Social care doing amazing jobs I wouldn’t be capable of in a million years get so little support. It disgusts me that the politicians treat them with such contempt. Clap for the NHS but b#gger off if you want a living wage for doing literally life saving work.
Rant for the day done. |
Last paragraph is absolutely spot on. | | | |
| Hospital beds on 07:32 - Jan 13 with 2058 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Hospital beds on 14:35 - Jan 12 by GlasgowBlue |
It's no better up here. The Scottish Labour leader is blaming the SNP Government.
Maybe it's time to start thinking outside the box. They did that in the Netherlands ion 2006 and Dutch health care has never been outside the top 3 best health providers in the world ever since. |
And the good news keeps coming.
Fcuk the SNP and fcuk anyone who voted for them. [Post edited 13 Jan 2023 7:52]
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| Hospital beds on 08:26 - Jan 13 with 1994 views | Cafe_Newman |
| Hospital beds on 21:45 - Jan 12 by WestStanderLaLaLa |
Both parties deliberately trashing my arse |
Well those graphs appear to show labour spending on the NHS, but why was there such a decline in bed numbers while labour were in power from 1997 to 2010?
Can you explain that? |  | | |
| Hospital beds on 08:32 - Jan 13 with 1980 views | Darth_Koont |
| Hospital beds on 07:32 - Jan 13 by GlasgowBlue |
And the good news keeps coming.
Fcuk the SNP and fcuk anyone who voted for them. [Post edited 13 Jan 2023 7:52]
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No. Fvck the Tories, the Red Tories and their apologists. And remember when your lot lied about an extra 350 million per week being available for the NHS?
But all of your silly politics-playing aside, where does the Scottish government get the extra money to fund the NHS?
Labour's solution for the NHS (again) is to "plug gaps" with taxpayer money funneled to private healthcare companies. The Scottish government can't even do that if it can't borrow money from elsewhere. |  |
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| Hospital beds on 08:50 - Jan 13 with 1953 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Hospital beds on 08:32 - Jan 13 by Darth_Koont |
No. Fvck the Tories, the Red Tories and their apologists. And remember when your lot lied about an extra 350 million per week being available for the NHS?
But all of your silly politics-playing aside, where does the Scottish government get the extra money to fund the NHS?
Labour's solution for the NHS (again) is to "plug gaps" with taxpayer money funneled to private healthcare companies. The Scottish government can't even do that if it can't borrow money from elsewhere. |
“ Further evidence that the Scottish NHS budget is under the control of the Scottish Government can be found in the SNP 2021 manifesto in which the party promised to boost NHS funding by an amount higher than that being provided by the Barnett consequential for frontline health spending.
And in actual fact, the amount spent on health and social care in England has increased in real terms, not decreased, in recent years, meaning the Barnett consequential for Scotland resulting from health and social care spending in England has also increased. ”
https://fullfact.org/online/scotland-nhs-funding-devolved/
I can’t believe that you are accusing the Labour Party of playing politics by blaming the SNP for the stare of the NHS in Scotland. Vote out the SNP. Vote Scottish Labour. [Post edited 13 Jan 2023 8:53]
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| Hospital beds on 08:58 - Jan 13 with 1916 views | Darth_Koont |
| Hospital beds on 08:50 - Jan 13 by GlasgowBlue |
“ Further evidence that the Scottish NHS budget is under the control of the Scottish Government can be found in the SNP 2021 manifesto in which the party promised to boost NHS funding by an amount higher than that being provided by the Barnett consequential for frontline health spending.
And in actual fact, the amount spent on health and social care in England has increased in real terms, not decreased, in recent years, meaning the Barnett consequential for Scotland resulting from health and social care spending in England has also increased. ”
https://fullfact.org/online/scotland-nhs-funding-devolved/
I can’t believe that you are accusing the Labour Party of playing politics by blaming the SNP for the stare of the NHS in Scotland. Vote out the SNP. Vote Scottish Labour. [Post edited 13 Jan 2023 8:53]
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Eh?
What do you think you're showing me here? I'm not saying anything like that the NHS spending in Scotland is linked to spending in the NHS for England and Wales.
My point is that you can't do better when the funding isn't a lot higher and the Scottish government only has a limited pot with no ability to borrow and invest.
You and Sarwar are blaming the Scottish Government for "mismanaging" things on a Tory/Labour budget. An independent Scotland would likely increase spending to get closer to the rest of Europe and not have to have such a low-budget infrastructure and services. | |
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| Hospital beds on 09:02 - Jan 13 with 1905 views | DJR |
| Hospital beds on 07:32 - Jan 13 by GlasgowBlue |
And the good news keeps coming.
Fcuk the SNP and fcuk anyone who voted for them. [Post edited 13 Jan 2023 7:52]
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You're Wee Dougie Alexander and I claim my £10!
On a more serious note, it looks like there will be a Labour revival in Scotland, as well as in England, but knowing the Tory capacity to bounce back, we could end up with a minority Labour government which is dependent on the SNP to get legislation through.
Starmer has ruled out a coalition with the SNP but it does seem to me that the possible outcome of the next election would be a far from stable situation. And no doubt, as they did in 2015, the Tories will go into the next election spreading fear at least in England about this possible outcome. [Post edited 13 Jan 2023 9:06]
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| Hospital beds on 09:03 - Jan 13 with 1900 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Hospital beds on 09:02 - Jan 13 by DJR |
You're Wee Dougie Alexander and I claim my £10!
On a more serious note, it looks like there will be a Labour revival in Scotland, as well as in England, but knowing the Tory capacity to bounce back, we could end up with a minority Labour government which is dependent on the SNP to get legislation through.
Starmer has ruled out a coalition with the SNP but it does seem to me that the possible outcome of the next election would be a far from stable situation. And no doubt, as they did in 2015, the Tories will go into the next election spreading fear at least in England about this possible outcome. [Post edited 13 Jan 2023 9:06]
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You’ll note that my link was from the Scottish Labour leader and not the Scottish Tory leader. | |
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