| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 13:34 - Jun 27 with 1406 views | Herbivore |
| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 13:24 - Jun 27 by positivity |
there's plenty of clear water in there, have a read.
if there's really nothing in there that appeals to you more than a tory policy, then you might as well enable the tories with a protest vote. my conscience wouldn't allow me to do that |
Unless Labour can start to show that they have some policies that will actually make a difference to most, and particularly to the most vulnerable, then voting for them or not has little practical difference. Stifling public sector pay, not changing the narrative on immigration, sticking to a damaging hard Brexit, rowing back on tuition fees, pretty limited commitments on public spending - it's all very uninspiring and so close to the Tories on so many key issues that it's hard to share your enthusiasm for them representing a positive change. They might be less openly evil than the Tories, and that's something I guess, but in terms of making things better for many people, I am not really seeing it based on what they are presenting to the public thus far. |  |
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| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 13:44 - Jun 27 with 1359 views | Darth_Koont |
| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 13:27 - Jun 27 by positivity |
the poor lad is so far down the conspiracy rabbithole, i expect to see him pop up in q-anon within months. very odd behaviour! |
You’re confusing not sharing your own groundless faith in meaningless politics with “going down the conspiracy rabbithole”.
But I expect nothing else. This blind faith and resulting ignorance is entirely why we are where we are. |  |
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| (No subject) (n/t) on 13:47 - Jun 27 with 1373 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 13:27 - Jun 27 by positivity |
the poor lad is so far down the conspiracy rabbithole, i expect to see him pop up in q-anon within months. very odd behaviour! |
Putting someone on ignore and then spouting sh1t about them...classy. [Post edited 27 Jun 2023 13:49]
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| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 13:49 - Jun 27 with 1365 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 13:32 - Jun 27 by Darth_Koont |
All that like the 28 billion in green investment has been shelved by the “iron-clad fiscal rules” mantra.
Labour are utterly committed to low tax and low spend, expecting private enterprise, poorer workers/households and “technology” to fill the yawning gaps. It’s just doubling down on the same failed growth model, no doubt blaming immigrants and “the left” when it fails to bear fruit for anyone but established interests. |
“iron-clad fiscal rules”
Unfortunately they’ve had their hands tied by Brexit, reckless splendid during the pandemic, outright theft via ‘PPE’ contracts for pals.
Despite supposed austerity since the GFC, we are now p1ssing away £83bn in interest payments ALONE to service our current national debt. We can borrow more but that’s predicated on the markets determine whether we can pay it back, and wasting even more public money on interest payments. Worth noting that we also had our sovereign debt rating downgraded PRE covid.
That’s what they will inherit. |  | | |
| (No subject) (n/t) on 14:01 - Jun 27 with 1359 views | positivity |
| (No subject) (n/t) on 13:47 - Jun 27 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Putting someone on ignore and then spouting sh1t about them...classy. [Post edited 27 Jun 2023 13:49]
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i'm very patient with people, but i'm sorry that even i have my limits.
if you're faced with a fundamentalist preacher or a q-anon devotee, you're never going to change their minds no matter how much truth you send their way. however, pointing out the flaws in their "reasoning", might help other onlookers step back from a similar fate | |
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| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 14:06 - Jun 27 with 1352 views | positivity |
| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 13:34 - Jun 27 by Herbivore |
Unless Labour can start to show that they have some policies that will actually make a difference to most, and particularly to the most vulnerable, then voting for them or not has little practical difference. Stifling public sector pay, not changing the narrative on immigration, sticking to a damaging hard Brexit, rowing back on tuition fees, pretty limited commitments on public spending - it's all very uninspiring and so close to the Tories on so many key issues that it's hard to share your enthusiasm for them representing a positive change. They might be less openly evil than the Tories, and that's something I guess, but in terms of making things better for many people, I am not really seeing it based on what they are presenting to the public thus far. |
so because in a couple of policy areas their policies are only slightly better than the tories, then you'd risk allowing the tories to win? my conscience wouldn't allow that.
not sure where you live, but i'm in a red wall seat, it's labour or the tories. there are enough positive progressive policies (and crucially i've yet to see you give one policy where the tories are more progressive) that i will happily vote for labour whilst being fully cognisant of all their flaws | |
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| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 14:08 - Jun 27 with 1352 views | Herbivore |
| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 13:49 - Jun 27 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
“iron-clad fiscal rules”
Unfortunately they’ve had their hands tied by Brexit, reckless splendid during the pandemic, outright theft via ‘PPE’ contracts for pals.
Despite supposed austerity since the GFC, we are now p1ssing away £83bn in interest payments ALONE to service our current national debt. We can borrow more but that’s predicated on the markets determine whether we can pay it back, and wasting even more public money on interest payments. Worth noting that we also had our sovereign debt rating downgraded PRE covid.
That’s what they will inherit. |
"Supposed austerity" - not this horsesh!t again. Interest payments, and thus government spending, went up in large part because austerity choked off growth, at least in the way we implemented it. Ask anyone who was working in the public sector from 2009 onwards whether austerity was very real and very damaging or merely "supposed" and you'll either get laughed at or slapped. | |
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| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 14:10 - Jun 27 with 1346 views | Herbivore |
| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 14:06 - Jun 27 by positivity |
so because in a couple of policy areas their policies are only slightly better than the tories, then you'd risk allowing the tories to win? my conscience wouldn't allow that.
not sure where you live, but i'm in a red wall seat, it's labour or the tories. there are enough positive progressive policies (and crucially i've yet to see you give one policy where the tories are more progressive) that i will happily vote for labour whilst being fully cognisant of all their flaws |
This isn't the USA, we don't have a two party system. I'm not going to be voting for the Tories and haven't claimed they are remotely progressive, I'm merely pointing out that Labour can't really be seen as progressive either. You seem to be struggling to counter that particular argument so you keep trying to move the goalposts. | |
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| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 14:18 - Jun 27 with 1329 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 14:08 - Jun 27 by Herbivore |
"Supposed austerity" - not this horsesh!t again. Interest payments, and thus government spending, went up in large part because austerity choked off growth, at least in the way we implemented it. Ask anyone who was working in the public sector from 2009 onwards whether austerity was very real and very damaging or merely "supposed" and you'll either get laughed at or slapped. |
My other half works for the NHS, I’m well aware.
It probably wasn’t phrased well - essentially I was referring to the inability of successive governments to tackle the exponentially increasing debt despite cuts. Largely due to the factors i mentioned in my previous post as well as the strong $. | | | |
| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 14:21 - Jun 27 with 1316 views | positivity |
| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 14:10 - Jun 27 by Herbivore |
This isn't the USA, we don't have a two party system. I'm not going to be voting for the Tories and haven't claimed they are remotely progressive, I'm merely pointing out that Labour can't really be seen as progressive either. You seem to be struggling to counter that particular argument so you keep trying to move the goalposts. |
not at all, i see flaws in labour, but they have much more progressive policies than the tories, so in the 2 party system in my seat i will definitely be voting labour.
in my opinion they are progressive (even if they're not as progressive as i'd like them to be (not sure any political party has doen that)) for many of the policies outlined in the link | |
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| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 14:23 - Jun 27 with 1306 views | Herbivore |
| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 14:18 - Jun 27 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
My other half works for the NHS, I’m well aware.
It probably wasn’t phrased well - essentially I was referring to the inability of successive governments to tackle the exponentially increasing debt despite cuts. Largely due to the factors i mentioned in my previous post as well as the strong $. |
The counter argument to austerity at the time was that it would choke off recovery and the kind of economic growth that would ultimately enable us to pay back what needed to be borrowed during the financial crisis. It seems as though that counter argument was a strong one; our economy has spent a decade or so flat lining, productivity is down, debt is up, and we have far poorer public services to show for it. All very depressing. | |
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| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 14:59 - Jun 27 with 1259 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 16:36 - Jun 26 by mutters |
I've yet to see anything from them that would inspire me to vote for Labour this time around. I am hoping that once we get closer to the GE their policies will be more transparent.
At the moment it seems to be "Vote Labour, we are not the Tories".
Depressing lack of options at the ballot box at the moment |
It feels more like 'Vote Labour, we are Tories'.
I don't know whether they:
a) don't want to give the Tories and ammunition by taking a position on anything
b) are trying to win over Tory voters by hinting they'd be similar anyway
c) don't know what they are doing
It might be none of the above, but there's a definite lack of a compelling vision. As you say, they've not presented a case of why people should vote FOR them. If it wasn't for the fact that people are waking up to the damage the Tories have done, I doubt anyone would be taking any notice of Labour. |  |
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| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 15:08 - Jun 27 with 1236 views | DJR |
| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 11:50 - Jun 27 by positivity |
i'll downvote posters who automatically post tiresome negativity to every credible alternative to the current government who are destroying our nhs, our public health, our environment. that's been you incessantly since corbyn stepped down. from your posting history you seem to have far more hate towards centre-left, centre etc far more than you hate the right. that's a dangerous position to be in
those who are more thoughtful and pragmatic and insightful (djr being an example that springs to mind), i'm always happy to listen to, even if i don't always agree
i expect labour in power to be a lot better than the tories and a lot worse than perfect, whether they're led by starmer or corbyn or anyone.
vote often and vote wisely, or enable the right-wingers. fascists always turn out to vote, then they deny others the opportunity.
love, pos xx |
You can have an uppie from me! |  | | |
| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 15:12 - Jun 27 with 1225 views | Herbivore |
| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 14:21 - Jun 27 by positivity |
not at all, i see flaws in labour, but they have much more progressive policies than the tories, so in the 2 party system in my seat i will definitely be voting labour.
in my opinion they are progressive (even if they're not as progressive as i'd like them to be (not sure any political party has doen that)) for many of the policies outlined in the link |
Aside from some of their environmental policies, which will only be enacted if they can be done within Labour's strict fiscal tests, which are essentially a version of austerity, which concrete policies of Labour's do you see as being progressive? | |
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| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 15:27 - Jun 27 with 1195 views | Darth_Koont |
| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 14:59 - Jun 27 by Swansea_Blue |
It feels more like 'Vote Labour, we are Tories'.
I don't know whether they:
a) don't want to give the Tories and ammunition by taking a position on anything
b) are trying to win over Tory voters by hinting they'd be similar anyway
c) don't know what they are doing
It might be none of the above, but there's a definite lack of a compelling vision. As you say, they've not presented a case of why people should vote FOR them. If it wasn't for the fact that people are waking up to the damage the Tories have done, I doubt anyone would be taking any notice of Labour. |
D) they want to get paid.
Serving the interests of capital (although in reality these are pretty narrow corporate and donor interests) pays a LOT better than serving the democratic interests of the people. | |
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| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 15:49 - Jun 27 with 1182 views | positivity |
| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 15:12 - Jun 27 by Herbivore |
Aside from some of their environmental policies, which will only be enacted if they can be done within Labour's strict fiscal tests, which are essentially a version of austerity, which concrete policies of Labour's do you see as being progressive? |
picking one at random from the list:-
Give every young person access to a specialist mental health professional at school
but good luck getting a "concrete policy" from any serious party at this point in the electoral cycle.
you've seen how quickly an extremist like liz truss can deliver a major shift in the economic outlook and rack up debts that we'll be paying off for decades. time for another dozen of them before the election if the tories decide to go down that road again! | |
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| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 16:05 - Jun 27 with 1168 views | Herbivore |
| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 15:49 - Jun 27 by positivity |
picking one at random from the list:-
Give every young person access to a specialist mental health professional at school
but good luck getting a "concrete policy" from any serious party at this point in the electoral cycle.
you've seen how quickly an extremist like liz truss can deliver a major shift in the economic outlook and rack up debts that we'll be paying off for decades. time for another dozen of them before the election if the tories decide to go down that road again! |
A nice idea, not one I've heard anyone from the shadow cabinet talking about very much and will be interesting to see if it ends up in the manifesto. I suspect a lot of this kind of thing will be scrapped and they'll blame the Tories for wrecking the economy rather than looking at how we might reshape our economic model so it works for those other than the top 1%. | |
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| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 16:10 - Jun 27 with 1149 views | positivity |
| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 16:05 - Jun 27 by Herbivore |
A nice idea, not one I've heard anyone from the shadow cabinet talking about very much and will be interesting to see if it ends up in the manifesto. I suspect a lot of this kind of thing will be scrapped and they'll blame the Tories for wrecking the economy rather than looking at how we might reshape our economic model so it works for those other than the top 1%. |
maybe these then?
End tax breaks for private equity bosses
Remove the non-domiciled tax loophole, putting in place a system for genuinely temporary residents
Remove the tax loopholes that private schools enjoy
Crack down on tax evasion and tax avoidance
not everything will make it in, sure, but i'd look at these type of documents over tv comments which are often just to test the wind | |
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| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 13:41 - Jun 30 with 958 views | Swansea_Blue |
I don’t know much about the internal wrangling within Labour, and suspect there’s much more to this one-sided story about another recent expulsion from the party, but these words convey what I’ve struggled to about Labour’s direction under Starmer.
‘He said the party was in the grip of a “paranoid, top-down way of political thinking”.
Lawson continued: “The machine doesn’t care if there’s an absence of hope in its project: it doesn’t matter what you think or feel, so long as you obediently support it”.’
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jun/30/compass-chief-says-labour-has-e
Paranoid and absence of hope. Spot on. It’s all about nullifying supposed threats but not offering a vision of hope for a better future. (Usual caveat applies: still better than current Tories, etc). | |
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| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 13:55 - Jun 30 with 946 views | Darth_Koont |
| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 13:41 - Jun 30 by Swansea_Blue |
I don’t know much about the internal wrangling within Labour, and suspect there’s much more to this one-sided story about another recent expulsion from the party, but these words convey what I’ve struggled to about Labour’s direction under Starmer.
‘He said the party was in the grip of a “paranoid, top-down way of political thinking”.
Lawson continued: “The machine doesn’t care if there’s an absence of hope in its project: it doesn’t matter what you think or feel, so long as you obediently support it”.’
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jun/30/compass-chief-says-labour-has-e
Paranoid and absence of hope. Spot on. It’s all about nullifying supposed threats but not offering a vision of hope for a better future. (Usual caveat applies: still better than current Tories, etc). |
Imagine a Labour party run by lowhouses ... that’s what we have got.
The Labour right are ghoulish anti-progressives who want to serve the establishment and get paid for it. And ironically they’re the biggest cult of all 😀 | |
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| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 13:59 - Jun 30 with 947 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 13:41 - Jun 30 by Swansea_Blue |
I don’t know much about the internal wrangling within Labour, and suspect there’s much more to this one-sided story about another recent expulsion from the party, but these words convey what I’ve struggled to about Labour’s direction under Starmer.
‘He said the party was in the grip of a “paranoid, top-down way of political thinking”.
Lawson continued: “The machine doesn’t care if there’s an absence of hope in its project: it doesn’t matter what you think or feel, so long as you obediently support it”.’
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jun/30/compass-chief-says-labour-has-e
Paranoid and absence of hope. Spot on. It’s all about nullifying supposed threats but not offering a vision of hope for a better future. (Usual caveat applies: still better than current Tories, etc). |
They're a fekkin cult aren't they!! | |
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| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 14:17 - Jun 30 with 937 views | itfcjoe |
| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 14:59 - Jun 27 by Swansea_Blue |
It feels more like 'Vote Labour, we are Tories'.
I don't know whether they:
a) don't want to give the Tories and ammunition by taking a position on anything
b) are trying to win over Tory voters by hinting they'd be similar anyway
c) don't know what they are doing
It might be none of the above, but there's a definite lack of a compelling vision. As you say, they've not presented a case of why people should vote FOR them. If it wasn't for the fact that people are waking up to the damage the Tories have done, I doubt anyone would be taking any notice of Labour. |
I think it is the fact that 90%+ of people in this country don't follow politics closely, and those that do get so wrapped un in the minutiae they forget that Labour just need to win the next election, not take a position on every possible thing in the 5 years between them
A few months back Bridget Phillipson announces about a new childcare solution, in the budget the Tories nick it, make it worse, and say it won't come in until after the next GE anyway.
They launch a 'green new deal' package, and within a few months the Tories start their own 'GB Energy'.
They have to stay disciplined and on message until the run up to the election, at that point they have to show what Labour can offer, until then, everything they do is just taken by the Tories, watered down and ties their hands.
The UK electorate isn't Twitter or Forums, I was even listening to something the other night saying the economy is in such a poor state the Times focus group has people saying that you can't trust Labour with the economy if it is bad etc because these things are deeply ingrained in the working population. Tories are good at the economy, that is what Labour have to fight against.
The big fear for me, is that they come in when the economy is so screwed that they simple aren't going to be able to get anything done, and then we see the Tories straight back in.
And big policy ideas, and big policy spending is fine to pontificate on for the middle classes - but they aren't the ones on the coalface who can't have their situation changed without potentially pushing them to disaster in the short term |  |
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| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 14:26 - Jun 30 with 922 views | DJR |
| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 13:41 - Jun 30 by Swansea_Blue |
I don’t know much about the internal wrangling within Labour, and suspect there’s much more to this one-sided story about another recent expulsion from the party, but these words convey what I’ve struggled to about Labour’s direction under Starmer.
‘He said the party was in the grip of a “paranoid, top-down way of political thinking”.
Lawson continued: “The machine doesn’t care if there’s an absence of hope in its project: it doesn’t matter what you think or feel, so long as you obediently support it”.’
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jun/30/compass-chief-says-labour-has-e
Paranoid and absence of hope. Spot on. It’s all about nullifying supposed threats but not offering a vision of hope for a better future. (Usual caveat applies: still better than current Tories, etc). |
The party (of which I am a member) is in the grip of what I would call illiberal liberals, with no room for any dissent from the neo-Blairite project. You might even called the party Stalinist, if it is appropriate to use such a term.
But even Blair was able to tolerate people like Robin Cook, John Prescott and Claire Short, and a party with no dissenting voices is likely to run into trouble from a policy point of view if no one internally questions what it is is doing.
This is Michael Crick's take on what is going on when it comes to candidate selections, with a heading "Labour's selection process verges on corruption".
https://unherd.com/2022/12/starmers-ruthless-attack-on-the-left/ [Post edited 30 Jun 2023 14:27]
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| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 14:31 - Jun 30 with 915 views | DJR |
| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 13:41 - Jun 30 by Swansea_Blue |
I don’t know much about the internal wrangling within Labour, and suspect there’s much more to this one-sided story about another recent expulsion from the party, but these words convey what I’ve struggled to about Labour’s direction under Starmer.
‘He said the party was in the grip of a “paranoid, top-down way of political thinking”.
Lawson continued: “The machine doesn’t care if there’s an absence of hope in its project: it doesn’t matter what you think or feel, so long as you obediently support it”.’
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jun/30/compass-chief-says-labour-has-e
Paranoid and absence of hope. Spot on. It’s all about nullifying supposed threats but not offering a vision of hope for a better future. (Usual caveat applies: still better than current Tories, etc). |
The irony is that Lawson can be censured for an old Tweet suggesting some limited support for another party, but the Labour Party welcome with open arms the Tory MP who switched sides. Standing as a Tory MP seems much more of an issue than a mere Tweet. [Post edited 30 Jun 2023 14:46]
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| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 14:38 - Jun 30 with 907 views | DJR |
| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 14:26 - Jun 30 by DJR |
The party (of which I am a member) is in the grip of what I would call illiberal liberals, with no room for any dissent from the neo-Blairite project. You might even called the party Stalinist, if it is appropriate to use such a term.
But even Blair was able to tolerate people like Robin Cook, John Prescott and Claire Short, and a party with no dissenting voices is likely to run into trouble from a policy point of view if no one internally questions what it is is doing.
This is Michael Crick's take on what is going on when it comes to candidate selections, with a heading "Labour's selection process verges on corruption".
https://unherd.com/2022/12/starmers-ruthless-attack-on-the-left/ [Post edited 30 Jun 2023 14:27]
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It is clear to me (and I have heard it said) that the neo-Blairites' man is our Wes, who surprise, surprise has just released a book about his life (sob) story, and working class roots.
Clearly positioning himself for the succession. [Post edited 30 Jun 2023 14:50]
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