| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 14:49 - Jun 30 with 2193 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 14:26 - Jun 30 by DJR |
The party (of which I am a member) is in the grip of what I would call illiberal liberals, with no room for any dissent from the neo-Blairite project. You might even called the party Stalinist, if it is appropriate to use such a term.
But even Blair was able to tolerate people like Robin Cook, John Prescott and Claire Short, and a party with no dissenting voices is likely to run into trouble from a policy point of view if no one internally questions what it is is doing.
This is Michael Crick's take on what is going on when it comes to candidate selections, with a heading "Labour's selection process verges on corruption".
https://unherd.com/2022/12/starmers-ruthless-attack-on-the-left/ [Post edited 30 Jun 2023 14:27]
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Urgh, grim reading. As you say, it can't be healthy having such a purge of people with different views and especially down the line when it comes to policy devp/implementation. I suppose this will be just glossed over as normal political cutthroat operations though. |  |
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| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 14:59 - Jun 30 with 2160 views | DJR |
| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 14:49 - Jun 30 by Swansea_Blue |
Urgh, grim reading. As you say, it can't be healthy having such a purge of people with different views and especially down the line when it comes to policy devp/implementation. I suppose this will be just glossed over as normal political cutthroat operations though. |
Sadly, things like this don't really get through to the wider public, but to me are equally as bad for liberal democracy as some of the things the Tories have got up to when it comes to matters like disregard for the rule of law.
I really ought to resign, but I fear, if I do, that bodies like the NEC (already a bit of a poodle) will end up with no dissenting voices at all. [Post edited 30 Jun 2023 15:00]
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| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 18:57 - Jun 30 with 2096 views | Ryorry |
| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 14:17 - Jun 30 by itfcjoe |
I think it is the fact that 90%+ of people in this country don't follow politics closely, and those that do get so wrapped un in the minutiae they forget that Labour just need to win the next election, not take a position on every possible thing in the 5 years between them
A few months back Bridget Phillipson announces about a new childcare solution, in the budget the Tories nick it, make it worse, and say it won't come in until after the next GE anyway.
They launch a 'green new deal' package, and within a few months the Tories start their own 'GB Energy'.
They have to stay disciplined and on message until the run up to the election, at that point they have to show what Labour can offer, until then, everything they do is just taken by the Tories, watered down and ties their hands.
The UK electorate isn't Twitter or Forums, I was even listening to something the other night saying the economy is in such a poor state the Times focus group has people saying that you can't trust Labour with the economy if it is bad etc because these things are deeply ingrained in the working population. Tories are good at the economy, that is what Labour have to fight against.
The big fear for me, is that they come in when the economy is so screwed that they simple aren't going to be able to get anything done, and then we see the Tories straight back in.
And big policy ideas, and big policy spending is fine to pontificate on for the middle classes - but they aren't the ones on the coalface who can't have their situation changed without potentially pushing them to disaster in the short term |
Glad you mentioned this re the tories nicking policies, & apols, hadn't seen your post here before saying much the same on GB's "Starmer" thread re Sunak & co. today hijacking Labour's plans (revealed 5 weeks ago) to rebuild the NHS.
Edited for typo [Post edited 30 Jun 2023 19:20]
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| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 19:23 - Jun 30 with 2071 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 18:57 - Jun 30 by Ryorry |
Glad you mentioned this re the tories nicking policies, & apols, hadn't seen your post here before saying much the same on GB's "Starmer" thread re Sunak & co. today hijacking Labour's plans (revealed 5 weeks ago) to rebuild the NHS.
Edited for typo [Post edited 30 Jun 2023 19:20]
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Any comment on the link DJR provided as you have downvoted my cult comment? |  |
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| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 21:39 - Jun 30 with 2027 views | positivity |
| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 14:59 - Jun 30 by DJR |
Sadly, things like this don't really get through to the wider public, but to me are equally as bad for liberal democracy as some of the things the Tories have got up to when it comes to matters like disregard for the rule of law.
I really ought to resign, but I fear, if I do, that bodies like the NEC (already a bit of a poodle) will end up with no dissenting voices at all. [Post edited 30 Jun 2023 15:00]
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stick around, bodies are always better with a range of views.
corbyn didn't leave when blair was in charge
blair didn't leave when corbyn was in charge
mcdonnell isn't leaving now
"We are far more united and have far more in common with each other than things that divide us." |  |
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| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 21:56 - Jun 30 with 2021 views | Ryorry |
| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 19:23 - Jun 30 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Any comment on the link DJR provided as you have downvoted my cult comment? |
I have 3 windows on Chrome, one has 122 tabs on it, approx 116 of which are articles that I've been meaning to read "when I have time" over the past 4 years. DJR's is now one of them. | |
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| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 22:20 - Jun 30 with 1994 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 21:56 - Jun 30 by Ryorry |
I have 3 windows on Chrome, one has 122 tabs on it, approx 116 of which are articles that I've been meaning to read "when I have time" over the past 4 years. DJR's is now one of them. |
 that sounds like my home screen. Don’t bother looking at the early ones; you won’t be interested any more, won’t remember why you opened the page in the first place or it’ll be for an event that took place 3 years ago. | |
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| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 00:21 - Jul 1 with 1950 views | DJR |
| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 21:39 - Jun 30 by positivity |
stick around, bodies are always better with a range of views.
corbyn didn't leave when blair was in charge
blair didn't leave when corbyn was in charge
mcdonnell isn't leaving now
"We are far more united and have far more in common with each other than things that divide us." |
I will stick around not least because of the reasons you mention.
At the end of the day, the party is more important than anyone for the time being in charge of it, and despite my misgivings I have no intention of ever changing my vote from Labour. [Post edited 1 Jul 2023 0:22]
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| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 19:37 - Jul 1 with 1859 views | DJR |
| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 14:26 - Jun 30 by DJR |
The party (of which I am a member) is in the grip of what I would call illiberal liberals, with no room for any dissent from the neo-Blairite project. You might even called the party Stalinist, if it is appropriate to use such a term.
But even Blair was able to tolerate people like Robin Cook, John Prescott and Claire Short, and a party with no dissenting voices is likely to run into trouble from a policy point of view if no one internally questions what it is is doing.
This is Michael Crick's take on what is going on when it comes to candidate selections, with a heading "Labour's selection process verges on corruption".
https://unherd.com/2022/12/starmers-ruthless-attack-on-the-left/ [Post edited 30 Jun 2023 14:27]
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It's not just me that regards what's going on as illiberal. This from the Guardian website.
"John Cruddas, a Labour MP, who is writing a history to commemorate the 100th anniversary of the first Labour government, told the Observer the way the party was purging critics and trying to stifle internal debate was a disgrace that would come back to haunt it: “This is unprecedented in Labour history — the most rightwing, illiberal faction in the party has been handed control to decide who is and is not a member. They are settling scores and are clearly embarked on a witch-hunt — not just of the Corbynite left but of mainstream democrats within the party such as Neal Lawson." [Post edited 1 Jul 2023 19:41]
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| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 23:12 - Jul 1 with 1810 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 19:37 - Jul 1 by DJR |
It's not just me that regards what's going on as illiberal. This from the Guardian website.
"John Cruddas, a Labour MP, who is writing a history to commemorate the 100th anniversary of the first Labour government, told the Observer the way the party was purging critics and trying to stifle internal debate was a disgrace that would come back to haunt it: “This is unprecedented in Labour history — the most rightwing, illiberal faction in the party has been handed control to decide who is and is not a member. They are settling scores and are clearly embarked on a witch-hunt — not just of the Corbynite left but of mainstream democrats within the party such as Neal Lawson." [Post edited 1 Jul 2023 19:41]
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Lawson has worked for the party in many roles, first in the 1980s for Labour Students fighting Militant tendency, and has been a branch secretary, district secretary and general election agent. He was an adviser in the 1980s to Gordon Brown, worked on election strategy for Peter Mandelson during the 1997 election and was an unofficial adviser to Ed Miliband during his leadership of Labour.
Lawson said: “I’ve fought all my life to make Labour a vehicle capable of transforming our country. If people like me and the pluralist tradition I represent have no place in Labour, then the future of the party and country feel very bleak.”
“It is also stupid, counterproductive and reveals a lack of self-confidence. To endure in government Labour will need to build alliances and coalitions — and reach out beyond the stale undemocratic faction that now runs the party. Kicking out Neal and anyone who is prepared to think independently of the most hard-line rightwing faction in the party does not bode well.”
Read it and weep....don't say you weren't warned. Red tories incoming. | |
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| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 06:57 - Jul 2 with 1765 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 23:12 - Jul 1 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Lawson has worked for the party in many roles, first in the 1980s for Labour Students fighting Militant tendency, and has been a branch secretary, district secretary and general election agent. He was an adviser in the 1980s to Gordon Brown, worked on election strategy for Peter Mandelson during the 1997 election and was an unofficial adviser to Ed Miliband during his leadership of Labour.
Lawson said: “I’ve fought all my life to make Labour a vehicle capable of transforming our country. If people like me and the pluralist tradition I represent have no place in Labour, then the future of the party and country feel very bleak.”
“It is also stupid, counterproductive and reveals a lack of self-confidence. To endure in government Labour will need to build alliances and coalitions — and reach out beyond the stale undemocratic faction that now runs the party. Kicking out Neal and anyone who is prepared to think independently of the most hard-line rightwing faction in the party does not bode well.”
Read it and weep....don't say you weren't warned. Red tories incoming. |
I see that the guardian has already made a correction.
“ The headline and text of this article were amended on 30 June 2023 to clarify that the author is facing possible expulsion from the Labour party, but is not ‘being expelled’, as an earlier version stated.”
He may not be expelled. He has to respond to a complaint and after a hearing could just get a letter telling him he’s been a naughty boy and not to do it again.
Sone context to this story. As a Labour member, he tweeted support for a candidate attempting to unseat a Labour councillor. It wasn’t part of tactical voting to remove or keep out a Tory. And this isn’t part of a purge by Starmer. Labour rules state that it is auto-exclusion if any Labour member retweets a tweet that calls on people to vote for another party.
The same thing happened to Alistair Campbell when Corbyn was leader.
[Post edited 2 Jul 2023 7:17]
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| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 07:14 - Jul 2 with 1747 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 14:31 - Jun 30 by DJR |
The irony is that Lawson can be censured for an old Tweet suggesting some limited support for another party, but the Labour Party welcome with open arms the Tory MP who switched sides. Standing as a Tory MP seems much more of an issue than a mere Tweet. [Post edited 30 Jun 2023 14:46]
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The Tory MP who switched sides is now bound by the same rules as Lawson. If he shows support for another party in order to unseat a Labour councillor or MP he will face disciplinary action as a Labour member.
Now here is something that is going to blow your mind. In order for Labour to win the next election, there are going to have to persuade some 3 million people who voted Tory last time around. Getting people to change sides is how you win elections.
A sitting Tory MP crossing the floor is a massive coup and a visible signal that Labour are able to persuade the Tory voters they need to win an election.
Edit. The former Tory MP will have been expelled by the Conservative party for a minimum of two years your supporting Labour. All parties have similar rules for members publicly supporting other parties. [Post edited 2 Jul 2023 7:20]
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| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 08:51 - Jul 2 with 1708 views | DJR |
| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 07:14 - Jul 2 by GlasgowBlue |
The Tory MP who switched sides is now bound by the same rules as Lawson. If he shows support for another party in order to unseat a Labour councillor or MP he will face disciplinary action as a Labour member.
Now here is something that is going to blow your mind. In order for Labour to win the next election, there are going to have to persuade some 3 million people who voted Tory last time around. Getting people to change sides is how you win elections.
A sitting Tory MP crossing the floor is a massive coup and a visible signal that Labour are able to persuade the Tory voters they need to win an election.
Edit. The former Tory MP will have been expelled by the Conservative party for a minimum of two years your supporting Labour. All parties have similar rules for members publicly supporting other parties. [Post edited 2 Jul 2023 7:20]
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Of course parties have rules, but trawling, for factional reasons, through social media to find flimsy reasons to penalise people (whether from being members, standing for office or otherwise) is not, in my view, an acceptable way for a party (of which I'm a member) to behave. [Post edited 2 Jul 2023 9:07]
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| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 10:08 - Jul 2 with 1647 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 08:51 - Jul 2 by DJR |
Of course parties have rules, but trawling, for factional reasons, through social media to find flimsy reasons to penalise people (whether from being members, standing for office or otherwise) is not, in my view, an acceptable way for a party (of which I'm a member) to behave. [Post edited 2 Jul 2023 9:07]
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So you accept that Lawson broke Labour party rules by endorsing a tweet supporting a LibDem/Green pact to remove a Labour councillor? It's just how we found out he broke the rules that you object to?
Did you support the expulsion of Alistair Campbell? [Post edited 2 Jul 2023 10:08]
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| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 10:10 - Jul 2 with 1629 views | DJR |
| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 10:08 - Jul 2 by GlasgowBlue |
So you accept that Lawson broke Labour party rules by endorsing a tweet supporting a LibDem/Green pact to remove a Labour councillor? It's just how we found out he broke the rules that you object to?
Did you support the expulsion of Alistair Campbell? [Post edited 2 Jul 2023 10:08]
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No, and no. | | | |
| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 10:35 - Jul 2 with 1580 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 10:10 - Jul 2 by DJR |
No, and no. |
I'm confused now. Do you accept Lawson broke Labour Party rules by endorsing a Lib/Green alliance to unseat a sitting Labour councillor? | |
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| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 11:04 - Jul 2 with 1548 views | positivity |
| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 08:51 - Jul 2 by DJR |
Of course parties have rules, but trawling, for factional reasons, through social media to find flimsy reasons to penalise people (whether from being members, standing for office or otherwise) is not, in my view, an acceptable way for a party (of which I'm a member) to behave. [Post edited 2 Jul 2023 9:07]
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agree, it was totally wrong when corbyn's clique was threatening deselection for non-believers and expelling campbell.
it's also wrong if the current leadership expel lawson (still an if, so fingers crossed)
we need a mutitude of voices, not just hard left or centrist left | |
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| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 11:19 - Jul 2 with 1511 views | Blueschev |
| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 06:57 - Jul 2 by GlasgowBlue |
I see that the guardian has already made a correction.
“ The headline and text of this article were amended on 30 June 2023 to clarify that the author is facing possible expulsion from the Labour party, but is not ‘being expelled’, as an earlier version stated.”
He may not be expelled. He has to respond to a complaint and after a hearing could just get a letter telling him he’s been a naughty boy and not to do it again.
Sone context to this story. As a Labour member, he tweeted support for a candidate attempting to unseat a Labour councillor. It wasn’t part of tactical voting to remove or keep out a Tory. And this isn’t part of a purge by Starmer. Labour rules state that it is auto-exclusion if any Labour member retweets a tweet that calls on people to vote for another party.
The same thing happened to Alistair Campbell when Corbyn was leader.
[Post edited 2 Jul 2023 7:17]
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Alistair Campbell was expelled from Labour for being "too radical on Brexit" according to Alistair Campbell, and he'd never lie. |  | | |
| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 11:29 - Jul 2 with 1492 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 11:19 - Jul 2 by Blueschev |
Alistair Campbell was expelled from Labour for being "too radical on Brexit" according to Alistair Campbell, and he'd never lie. |
I must admit I'm still trying to square Campbells recent QT appearance when he was banging on about Brexit lies.
If I had been part of one of the biggest lies in history which resulted in mass deaths I think I would have kept quiet. |  |
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| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 11:47 - Jul 2 with 1460 views | Blueschev |
| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 11:29 - Jul 2 by Lord_Lucan |
I must admit I'm still trying to square Campbells recent QT appearance when he was banging on about Brexit lies.
If I had been part of one of the biggest lies in history which resulted in mass deaths I think I would have kept quiet. |
I fully believe that the path to Johnson and his lies, spin and lack of accountability started with Campbell. | | | |
| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 11:53 - Jul 2 with 1440 views | positivity |
| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 11:19 - Jul 2 by Blueschev |
Alistair Campbell was expelled from Labour for being "too radical on Brexit" according to Alistair Campbell, and he'd never lie. |
that may well have been why, but it wasn't the excuse given by the labour party! | |
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| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 12:01 - Jul 2 with 1433 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 11:19 - Jul 2 by Blueschev |
Alistair Campbell was expelled from Labour for being "too radical on Brexit" according to Alistair Campbell, and he'd never lie. |
"A Labour party spokeswoman said Campbell had been expelled because “support for another political party or candidate is incompatible with party membership”.
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| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 12:06 - Jul 2 with 1420 views | Blueschev |
| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 12:01 - Jul 2 by GlasgowBlue |
"A Labour party spokeswoman said Campbell had been expelled because “support for another political party or candidate is incompatible with party membership”.
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I'm well aware of that, I'm just not sure that he is. | | | |
| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 12:11 - Jul 2 with 1404 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 12:06 - Jul 2 by Blueschev |
I'm well aware of that, I'm just not sure that he is. |
Irrelevant to the discussion regarding Lawson. Labour party rules are clear on support for other political parties. | |
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| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 12:31 - Jul 2 with 1378 views | Blueschev |
| Not sure if it has been mentioned, but Labour do seem quite close to the Tories on 12:11 - Jul 2 by GlasgowBlue |
Irrelevant to the discussion regarding Lawson. Labour party rules are clear on support for other political parties. |
Well according to Campbell's own claims, his expulsion is irrelevant to the discussion regarding Lawson. | | | |
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