| Reform. 09:17 - Jul 16 with 7646 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
Reassuring to hear Keir talking about reforming public services with not a jot of detail on what that means. (Assume he means more privatisation) But at least he's still "laser focused!"
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| Reform. on 11:31 - Jul 16 with 1570 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Reform. on 11:25 - Jul 16 by redrickstuhaart |
If you are undermining the alternative, or endorsing another poster making things up in order to do so, that would be the logical inference. |
Illogical and making things up......ironic! | |
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| Reform. on 11:32 - Jul 16 with 1568 views | DJR |
| Reform. on 11:03 - Jul 16 by Vegtablue |
Older UK residents who can't afford to buy a home lived through the era when the average house cost 2.1 times the typical first time buyer's salary. Now it is 5.5 times and the ownership rate among people aged 25-34 has halved since the 1980s, so it's understandable why politicians focus on those who didn't have the opportunity to buy in what was an extraordinarily easier climate. Plenty of older people will have moved to the UK since that much easier time, some from countries where wealth accumulation was as difficult as it is for young people today, but it's a smaller group and not one the parties want focus their attention on. Hopefully necessary housing reform will help UK residents of all ages currently priced out of home ownership. |
But, in a civilised society, surely something has to be done for those in their 60s and older at the whim of private landlords, some of whom are forced to sofa surf when their tenancy is ended? [Post edited 16 Jul 2023 11:34]
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| Reform. on 11:36 - Jul 16 with 1547 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Reform. on 11:32 - Jul 16 by DJR |
But, in a civilised society, surely something has to be done for those in their 60s and older at the whim of private landlords, some of whom are forced to sofa surf when their tenancy is ended? [Post edited 16 Jul 2023 11:34]
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Obviously they should have jumped aboard Thatcher's selfish individualism express while they had the chance. Nobody to blame but themselves! | |
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| Reform. on 11:38 - Jul 16 with 1538 views | DJR |
| Reform. on 09:57 - Jul 16 by redrickstuhaart |
Is there a single proper basis to suggest he intends lots of privatisation?
Very odd to be making things up to undermine the only realistic prospect of removing the current government. |
This article suggests there may well be, and this is just one area.
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/wes-streeting-keirs-not-superman-he-cant-do-
The problem it seem to me, when it comes to Labour under both Blair and Starmer, is that their natural instinct is to look to the private sector for solutions, PFI probably being the worst example.
And my view is that this is ideological. Just take Osborne and Balls who are now the best of friends, and who the latest issue of Private Eye indicates were very close on issues like the deregulation of the City early in the century (which had a part in the financial crash) and austerity, which Balls supported from 2013 onwards.
[Post edited 16 Jul 2023 11:50]
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| Reform. on 11:47 - Jul 16 with 1510 views | Vegtablue |
| Reform. on 11:32 - Jul 16 by DJR |
But, in a civilised society, surely something has to be done for those in their 60s and older at the whim of private landlords, some of whom are forced to sofa surf when their tenancy is ended? [Post edited 16 Jul 2023 11:34]
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I don't wish to disagree with you. However, surely this expands to, in a civilized society, we should leave no one behind? It doesn't alter the reality that our housing mess disproportionately affects the largest section of society who missed out on far more preferential market terms. [Post edited 16 Jul 2023 11:48]
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| Reform. on 11:49 - Jul 16 with 1497 views | WeWereZombies |
| Reform. on 09:46 - Jul 16 by DJR |
Indeed, you could read Starmer's article, with its emphasis on growth, and wonder whether there is any difference from what Liz Truss was saying.
And of course, if growth doesn't materialise, does this mean just further managed decline of public services? [Post edited 16 Jul 2023 9:48]
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'if growth doesn't materialise' ? Not when ?
In a way I agree with lowhouse in the approach that we need to get Starmer in as soon as possible, because we have to put a brake on the destruction that the current Conservative ideology (which is pretty extreme Marxist in the manner in which it is applied, not in its substance obviously) is wreaking. We probably diverge in my hope that after a couple of years Starmer is replaced with someone much braver. |  |
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| Reform. on 11:54 - Jul 16 with 1482 views | DJR |
| Reform. on 11:47 - Jul 16 by Vegtablue |
I don't wish to disagree with you. However, surely this expands to, in a civilized society, we should leave no one behind? It doesn't alter the reality that our housing mess disproportionately affects the largest section of society who missed out on far more preferential market terms. [Post edited 16 Jul 2023 11:48]
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And I wouldn't disagree with what you say either. [Post edited 16 Jul 2023 11:54]
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| Reform. on 12:00 - Jul 16 with 1462 views | lowhouseblue |
| Reform. on 11:15 - Jul 16 by Darth_Koont |
Eh?
What about actual politics fit for purpose? Politics that accepts that the neoliberal consensus isn’t working? At the very least, where politicians and parties have to stand for something and be able to make their case using evidence? |
and an answer to my question? |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Reform. on 12:01 - Jul 16 with 1456 views | Darth_Koont |
| Reform. on 12:00 - Jul 16 by lowhouseblue |
and an answer to my question? |
I did answer your “question”.
Your turn. |  |
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| Reform. on 12:45 - Jul 16 with 1414 views | HARRY10 |
The talk is of unorecended swings. Rubbish. Take a look at the recent swings in voting. Huge 20,000 plus Tory majorities being over turned. Two sets of council elections where each time the Tories took a massive hammering. Poll figures that for the last year have shown Labour winning by a comforatble majority.
The message is loud and clear. Voters want rid of the Tories. Want rid of the sleaze, corfuption and incompetence. I might add the constant sex scandals don't help either.
Tory research showed that it was NOT the bloater who had as much effect on the 2019 election as the thought that brexit would finally be sorted. It can be argued that the bloaters wholeale lying about that impossibilty meant he had some influence, but not to the extend he would have it.
We are at that stage now. . A farken open goal with the penaly spot moved to six yards out. Starmers needs to stop waffling about the run up. Just step up and give the ball a mighty boot, and to hell if you upset a few rightiues. Fark em.
In 1945 Labour offered hope. Not so much that things would be better after the war. But they would not slide back to the squalor and deprivation of the '30s. The country was bankrupt in 1945 yet Labour set up the NHS, began building houses and took control of much that was needed to underpin the economy utilities railway etc.
It is a time for boldness. A time when the country is crying out for change. A massive move against the lunatic stuff espoused by Truss, Badenoch. Tomorrow does not belong to you, however much you sing it.
The country is not interested in vacuous three word slogans... grow the economy. It wants to know why in the 5th(?) richest economy there are so few dentists, why people are now struggling to pay the rent (never mind owning their home), why schools are falling apart. Why nothing seems tom work anymore.
Get the utilities running properly. Remove the shackles of brexit from business and above all offer voters hope that where needed it will be fixed.... and sod the costs.
In 1945 people pulled together because they saw things were improving. Only an utter fool now thinks things can continue as they are. Time to get off your knees Starmer. | | | |
| Reform. on 13:08 - Jul 16 with 1407 views | giant_stow |
| Reform. on 09:46 - Jul 16 by DJR |
Indeed, you could read Starmer's article, with its emphasis on growth, and wonder whether there is any difference from what Liz Truss was saying.
And of course, if growth doesn't materialise, does this mean just further managed decline of public services? [Post edited 16 Jul 2023 9:48]
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Given that report by OBR the other day, I think growth (hopefully green-friendly growth) *is* the only thing that will save us. The alternative in an ageing society is ever higher taxes on a ever smaller group of working people, with all the associated issues of inter-generational fairness that situation would bring.
Maybe Wealth taxes would help but a lot of money is mobile and can move out of taxable range, so to me, to talk about the need for growth isn't dishonest or empty political speak - it's about being able to afford suitable public services. |  |
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| Reform. on 13:27 - Jul 16 with 1389 views | DJR |
| Reform. on 13:08 - Jul 16 by giant_stow |
Given that report by OBR the other day, I think growth (hopefully green-friendly growth) *is* the only thing that will save us. The alternative in an ageing society is ever higher taxes on a ever smaller group of working people, with all the associated issues of inter-generational fairness that situation would bring.
Maybe Wealth taxes would help but a lot of money is mobile and can move out of taxable range, so to me, to talk about the need for growth isn't dishonest or empty political speak - it's about being able to afford suitable public services. |
But in Scotland income tax on the wealthy has been increased, and even Ed Miliband went into the 2015 election promising a mansion tax and a return to the 50%, so an alternative approach is possible. It's just that Labour under Starmer have completely ruled this out. And I wouldn't be surprised, if the Tories abolish or reduce inheritance tax, that Labour will just go along with it.
The fact is that public services in this country are in the state they are in because we raise much less in terms of tax than most other successful European countries, as shown by the following article. Indeed, the article is interesting because it shows how things have changed since the 1960s.
https://ifs.org.uk/taxlab/taxlab-key-questions/how-do-uk-tax-revenues-compare-in [Post edited 16 Jul 2023 13:30]
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| Reform. on 13:50 - Jul 16 with 1325 views | giant_stow |
| Reform. on 13:27 - Jul 16 by DJR |
But in Scotland income tax on the wealthy has been increased, and even Ed Miliband went into the 2015 election promising a mansion tax and a return to the 50%, so an alternative approach is possible. It's just that Labour under Starmer have completely ruled this out. And I wouldn't be surprised, if the Tories abolish or reduce inheritance tax, that Labour will just go along with it.
The fact is that public services in this country are in the state they are in because we raise much less in terms of tax than most other successful European countries, as shown by the following article. Indeed, the article is interesting because it shows how things have changed since the 1960s.
https://ifs.org.uk/taxlab/taxlab-key-questions/how-do-uk-tax-revenues-compare-in [Post edited 16 Jul 2023 13:30]
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In theory, I have nothing against higher tax rates, but do you think they would be realistic or electorally attractive at a time of huge increases in food and energy prices, plus housing costs going through the roof? Peoples' budgets are already stretched to breaking point.
The Scottish increase is quite recent (and small) I think, but I'm sure the fear up there is that higher earners will head south and if that happens the overall take could go down. In a wider UK context, why wouldn't young people just emigrate if they feel they're being asked to pay more on top of their student loans and impossible housing costs to prop up retirees who enjoyed a welfare state that they could only dream of? Apparently drs are already voting with their feet in a such a way... Indeed hospital consultants are pissed off about paying the higher tax rates from the lower starting band and striking for more.
On your last point, I honestly have no answer for how Scandinavian countries pull of the relatively high tax rates that they do. Credit to all involved. | |
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| Reform. on 14:09 - Jul 16 with 1301 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Reform. on 11:15 - Jul 16 by Darth_Koont |
Eh?
What about actual politics fit for purpose? Politics that accepts that the neoliberal consensus isn’t working? At the very least, where politicians and parties have to stand for something and be able to make their case using evidence? |
Corbyn tried that. Unfortunately we live in the UK. Large swathes of which prefer soundbites to evidence. You have to play the room. |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Reform. on 14:09 - Jul 16 with 1299 views | NthQldITFC |
| Reform. on 12:45 - Jul 16 by HARRY10 |
The talk is of unorecended swings. Rubbish. Take a look at the recent swings in voting. Huge 20,000 plus Tory majorities being over turned. Two sets of council elections where each time the Tories took a massive hammering. Poll figures that for the last year have shown Labour winning by a comforatble majority.
The message is loud and clear. Voters want rid of the Tories. Want rid of the sleaze, corfuption and incompetence. I might add the constant sex scandals don't help either.
Tory research showed that it was NOT the bloater who had as much effect on the 2019 election as the thought that brexit would finally be sorted. It can be argued that the bloaters wholeale lying about that impossibilty meant he had some influence, but not to the extend he would have it.
We are at that stage now. . A farken open goal with the penaly spot moved to six yards out. Starmers needs to stop waffling about the run up. Just step up and give the ball a mighty boot, and to hell if you upset a few rightiues. Fark em.
In 1945 Labour offered hope. Not so much that things would be better after the war. But they would not slide back to the squalor and deprivation of the '30s. The country was bankrupt in 1945 yet Labour set up the NHS, began building houses and took control of much that was needed to underpin the economy utilities railway etc.
It is a time for boldness. A time when the country is crying out for change. A massive move against the lunatic stuff espoused by Truss, Badenoch. Tomorrow does not belong to you, however much you sing it.
The country is not interested in vacuous three word slogans... grow the economy. It wants to know why in the 5th(?) richest economy there are so few dentists, why people are now struggling to pay the rent (never mind owning their home), why schools are falling apart. Why nothing seems tom work anymore.
Get the utilities running properly. Remove the shackles of brexit from business and above all offer voters hope that where needed it will be fixed.... and sod the costs.
In 1945 people pulled together because they saw things were improving. Only an utter fool now thinks things can continue as they are. Time to get off your knees Starmer. |
Bravo... but above all educate the electorate as to why any form of business as usual (and the fantasy of perpetual, benevolent growth) means an imminent overheating (in all senses) death.
Demonstrate to the whole world the political will and bravery to try, to really try, to reboot the system, redistribute wealth and give us some kind of a chance of surviving the next few decades as a functioning society in a desperately fragile environment, where sustainable health and happiness are the real currency of wealth, rather than piles of abstract numbers. |  |
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| Reform. on 14:19 - Jul 16 with 1287 views | DJR |
| Reform. on 13:50 - Jul 16 by giant_stow |
In theory, I have nothing against higher tax rates, but do you think they would be realistic or electorally attractive at a time of huge increases in food and energy prices, plus housing costs going through the roof? Peoples' budgets are already stretched to breaking point.
The Scottish increase is quite recent (and small) I think, but I'm sure the fear up there is that higher earners will head south and if that happens the overall take could go down. In a wider UK context, why wouldn't young people just emigrate if they feel they're being asked to pay more on top of their student loans and impossible housing costs to prop up retirees who enjoyed a welfare state that they could only dream of? Apparently drs are already voting with their feet in a such a way... Indeed hospital consultants are pissed off about paying the higher tax rates from the lower starting band and striking for more.
On your last point, I honestly have no answer for how Scandinavian countries pull of the relatively high tax rates that they do. Credit to all involved. |
I suppose the problem is that it is never the right time to raise taxes in this country.
My view is that the right wing agenda of supposedly lower taxes dominates everything but ends up costing more in the long run in terms of lower growth (due to lack of public investment) and declining public services.
The problem is that people are tricked into thinking they benefit from lower taxes but they don't in fact if they have to rely on, say, the NHS or social care.
Other countries and their people presumably take a much more rational approach to such matters, and don't have the Daily Mail breathing down their necks.
On doctors, the main issue appears to be real term cuts in pay, which will only result in doctors leaving the country, or maybe even heading to Scotland where a 12.4% pay increase has been agreed.
And if Labour followed what the Scottish government has done, there wouldn't be the issue you mention (if indeed it is an issue), and maybe we could afford a 12.4% increase.
As it is, I can't see Labour being any more generous than the Tories on public sector pay. [Post edited 16 Jul 2023 14:20]
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| Reform. on 14:19 - Jul 16 with 1284 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Reform. on 14:09 - Jul 16 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Corbyn tried that. Unfortunately we live in the UK. Large swathes of which prefer soundbites to evidence. You have to play the room. |
Many people dont rely on soundbites as much as recognise that policies have to be grounded in the real world. | | | |
| Reform. on 14:24 - Jul 16 with 1273 views | Leaky |
| Reform. on 10:25 - Jul 16 by BanksterDebtSlave |
I have every reason to assume he will continue Blair's work until he says differently. |
Do you mean start a middle east war, then get nice earner becoming a Peace Envoy. Blair the most corrupt PM in history. |  | | |
| Reform. on 14:24 - Jul 16 with 1273 views | DJR |
| Reform. on 11:38 - Jul 16 by DJR |
This article suggests there may well be, and this is just one area.
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/wes-streeting-keirs-not-superman-he-cant-do-
The problem it seem to me, when it comes to Labour under both Blair and Starmer, is that their natural instinct is to look to the private sector for solutions, PFI probably being the worst example.
And my view is that this is ideological. Just take Osborne and Balls who are now the best of friends, and who the latest issue of Private Eye indicates were very close on issues like the deregulation of the City early in the century (which had a part in the financial crash) and austerity, which Balls supported from 2013 onwards.
[Post edited 16 Jul 2023 11:50]
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Hot off the press.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tony-blair-says-nhs-not-30477469 | | | |
| Reform. on 14:26 - Jul 16 with 1266 views | You_Bloo_Right |
Reform you say?
Let's start with (re-)nationalising these:
Water companies - est. annual saving to the public purse £2.7bn
Energy companies (generation & supply, including National Grid) - est. saving £4+bn
Telecoms companies - £1.2bn
Postal Services - £200m
Train companies - £1bn
Bus companies - £500m
Banks - ???
Compensation - where applicable - to be the sum investors put in rather than current share value, minus, of course, whatever returns they have already had on those investments.
UK pension funds do invest in some of these companies but not to a great extent.
Ending the NHS "internal market" could save another £4-5bn per annum.
Bring the PFI initiaives back - maybe another £100-200m p.a.
That's about £250m saved each week. Money to pay for infrastructure/service improvements, including increased staffing levels where needed.
Not quite the Brexit £350m a week we were never paying (net) anyway so couldn't save.
Figures drawn from
https://weownit.org.uk/
http://www.psiru.org/sites/default/files/2016-04-E-UK-public.pdf
and, of course, the obligatory Guardian articles
Edit: To correct at least some of the spelling mistakes [Post edited 16 Jul 2023 14:28]
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| Reform. on 14:28 - Jul 16 with 1247 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Reform. on 14:24 - Jul 16 by Leaky |
Do you mean start a middle east war, then get nice earner becoming a Peace Envoy. Blair the most corrupt PM in history. |
Blair made some bad errors and was not always honest about them.
To say he is the most corrupt pm in a world where Boris Johnson exists, is absurd. | | | |
| Reform. on 14:29 - Jul 16 with 1245 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Reform. on 14:26 - Jul 16 by You_Bloo_Right |
Reform you say?
Let's start with (re-)nationalising these:
Water companies - est. annual saving to the public purse £2.7bn
Energy companies (generation & supply, including National Grid) - est. saving £4+bn
Telecoms companies - £1.2bn
Postal Services - £200m
Train companies - £1bn
Bus companies - £500m
Banks - ???
Compensation - where applicable - to be the sum investors put in rather than current share value, minus, of course, whatever returns they have already had on those investments.
UK pension funds do invest in some of these companies but not to a great extent.
Ending the NHS "internal market" could save another £4-5bn per annum.
Bring the PFI initiaives back - maybe another £100-200m p.a.
That's about £250m saved each week. Money to pay for infrastructure/service improvements, including increased staffing levels where needed.
Not quite the Brexit £350m a week we were never paying (net) anyway so couldn't save.
Figures drawn from
https://weownit.org.uk/
http://www.psiru.org/sites/default/files/2016-04-E-UK-public.pdf
and, of course, the obligatory Guardian articles
Edit: To correct at least some of the spelling mistakes [Post edited 16 Jul 2023 14:28]
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Legalised state theft.
Never going to win an election. Would also cause huge international issues.
This is the problem. | | | |
| Reform. on 14:31 - Jul 16 with 1234 views | NthQldITFC |
| Reform. on 14:26 - Jul 16 by You_Bloo_Right |
Reform you say?
Let's start with (re-)nationalising these:
Water companies - est. annual saving to the public purse £2.7bn
Energy companies (generation & supply, including National Grid) - est. saving £4+bn
Telecoms companies - £1.2bn
Postal Services - £200m
Train companies - £1bn
Bus companies - £500m
Banks - ???
Compensation - where applicable - to be the sum investors put in rather than current share value, minus, of course, whatever returns they have already had on those investments.
UK pension funds do invest in some of these companies but not to a great extent.
Ending the NHS "internal market" could save another £4-5bn per annum.
Bring the PFI initiaives back - maybe another £100-200m p.a.
That's about £250m saved each week. Money to pay for infrastructure/service improvements, including increased staffing levels where needed.
Not quite the Brexit £350m a week we were never paying (net) anyway so couldn't save.
Figures drawn from
https://weownit.org.uk/
http://www.psiru.org/sites/default/files/2016-04-E-UK-public.pdf
and, of course, the obligatory Guardian articles
Edit: To correct at least some of the spelling mistakes [Post edited 16 Jul 2023 14:28]
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I'm in. | |
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| Reform. on 14:32 - Jul 16 with 1224 views | longtimefan |
| Reform. on 13:50 - Jul 16 by giant_stow |
In theory, I have nothing against higher tax rates, but do you think they would be realistic or electorally attractive at a time of huge increases in food and energy prices, plus housing costs going through the roof? Peoples' budgets are already stretched to breaking point.
The Scottish increase is quite recent (and small) I think, but I'm sure the fear up there is that higher earners will head south and if that happens the overall take could go down. In a wider UK context, why wouldn't young people just emigrate if they feel they're being asked to pay more on top of their student loans and impossible housing costs to prop up retirees who enjoyed a welfare state that they could only dream of? Apparently drs are already voting with their feet in a such a way... Indeed hospital consultants are pissed off about paying the higher tax rates from the lower starting band and striking for more.
On your last point, I honestly have no answer for how Scandinavian countries pull of the relatively high tax rates that they do. Credit to all involved. |
It would be really enlightening if someone could spell out clearly exactly what they mean by increased income taxes and a potential wealth tax. What rates would you apply and at what income thresholds? What about a wealth tax, what would be assessed and at what rate do think it should be levied? | | | |
| Reform. on 14:35 - Jul 16 with 1201 views | lowhouseblue |
| Reform. on 13:08 - Jul 16 by giant_stow |
Given that report by OBR the other day, I think growth (hopefully green-friendly growth) *is* the only thing that will save us. The alternative in an ageing society is ever higher taxes on a ever smaller group of working people, with all the associated issues of inter-generational fairness that situation would bring.
Maybe Wealth taxes would help but a lot of money is mobile and can move out of taxable range, so to me, to talk about the need for growth isn't dishonest or empty political speak - it's about being able to afford suitable public services. |
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/apr/10/super-rich-abandoning-norway-at-re | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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