| [Redacted] on 20:09 - Jul 16 with 1421 views | victorywilhappen |
| A good assessment of the NATO/Ukraine/ Russia situation on 19:40 - Jul 16 by Kropotkin123 |
There were plenty of witnesses in Vilnius giving different opinions. 2 core opinions on how unified the meeting was and the progress that was made. And 3 core ways the current military phase is going. This isn't covered. It is just one from the first section and one from the second section. This isn't truth, it is an opinion. And of those giving this type of opinion it is poorly written.
I didn't say it was propaganda. He undoubtedly does have an Agenda, as he is representing the "inner circle of Estonia". I assume that agenda would be to use what he is saying to get further commitments from key players to back Ukraine further. Estonia, after all, has given a significant amount in relation to their GDP.
It doesn't change that it is a badly written, highly speculative opinion piece. Evidenced by their own admission that that they can't guess the minds of others, but did so anyway with zero evidence.
I would describe a piece representing both sides as more honest and informed. The Telegraph's Ukrainian podcast on Thursday (if I remember correctly) did this around the 7 to 8 min mark. They then revisited the strength of Russia theories around the 30 min mark in the same episode. Way more balanced, representing the different opinions, and not looking to present one as right. |
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| A good assessment of the NATO/Ukraine/ Russia situation on 20:31 - Jul 16 with 1387 views | WeWereZombies |
I found the way that four possible outcomes were spelt out in the article gave a much needed clarification of what is at stake, thanks for posting. |  |
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| A good assessment of the NATO/Ukraine/ Russia situation on 20:36 - Jul 16 with 1378 views | Churchman |
| A good assessment of the NATO/Ukraine/ Russia situation on 19:54 - Jul 16 by HARRY10 |
A defeat for Russia will only lead to one of two things. Each a variation of te otehr
As it stands Russia will not be able to keep up at this level. With the embargo of the materials needed to keep an army in the field. There is only so much Iran and N. Korea can supply. More so when compared to the West. Russia would then face incursions by both China and India, or more likely separatist movements backed by both.
A look at pre WWI Europe and you can see the same concerns being played out. Then it was a matter of trying to keep the balance of power, while all sides believed the other was not only try to get an advantage, but were. Then the use of millions of troops meant that once started it could not be easily stopped.
The Ukrainians will have to come to the negotiating table sooner rather than later. NATO is not going to let Ukraine join whilst it has an agreement that any attack on one member is an attack on them all. There will be no 'bank cheque' as with the Kaiser in 1914.
It should also be borne in mind how many of the population of those three Baltic States consider themselves as Russian. Just as in Crimea. Russia is not going to allow Sevastopol to become a NATO base. It is absurd of Ukraine to think so, as NATO countries are well aware of.
And also well aware that it is their interest to ensure Russian is able to maintain stability on its Eastern and Southern borders, and not collapse inward as Austria-Hungary in 1914-18 leaving a power vacuum and a free for all between various ethnic groups. Too close to what modern day Russia is. |
Actually WW1 wasn’t about balance of power at all. It was about a despotic leader of Germany, having only united in 1871 but industrially powerful, seeking territory and influence as fast as it could. Fear of that drove Russia, France and Britain together, with or without a formal treaty.
What is correct is that Ukraine will not be joining NATO while they are at war with Russia for the reason you state.
Russia has done well towards realigning its economy to its friends and allies. Sanctions have failed dismally as they were always going to and Russia can continue this war for a long time yet. In losses terms, they’ve lost a lot of men. They don’t care with millions at their disposal. They have plenty of kit to lose and Putin looks as strong as ever.
Negotiation is one of two choices. Give Russia what it wants and hope the problem goes away or Russia goes back to its agreed borders. They won’t do that because that’s the end of Putin.
Yes there are Russians living in the Baltic states - mostly moved in since 1945 to the collapse of the USSR. Percentages are under 10%. But Putin will use this just as Hitler used the lies around Sudetenland Germans in Czechoslovakia in 1938.
If Russia splits up, I’m not sure how that creates instability any more than when Scotland gains independence. If the people want their own countries, that’s as it should be. [Post edited 16 Jul 2023 20:51]
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| A good assessment of the NATO/Ukraine/ Russia situation on 22:42 - Jul 16 with 1326 views | vilanovablue |
Chernobyl Prayer is very insightful. It's a very complex situation and not goi getting any easier. |  | | |
| A good assessment of the NATO/Ukraine/ Russia situation on 23:33 - Jul 16 with 1303 views | Kropotkin123 |
You claimed it is the "most honest and informed I have seen published." I took issue with that, infering it misses the context of other pieces that have presented both opinion pieces. Presenting both side is providing a more honest and informed account.
Looking at all sides doesn't shy away from outcomes I don't like. I'm just not going to pretend that one perspective is more "honest and informed".
Essentially it isn't what they have said that is the issue, it is the way you have framed what they have said in your initial post. |  |
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| [Redacted] on 00:06 - Jul 17 with 1282 views | victorywilhappen |
| A good assessment of the NATO/Ukraine/ Russia situation on 23:33 - Jul 16 by Kropotkin123 |
You claimed it is the "most honest and informed I have seen published." I took issue with that, infering it misses the context of other pieces that have presented both opinion pieces. Presenting both side is providing a more honest and informed account.
Looking at all sides doesn't shy away from outcomes I don't like. I'm just not going to pretend that one perspective is more "honest and informed".
Essentially it isn't what they have said that is the issue, it is the way you have framed what they have said in your initial post. |
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| A good assessment of the NATO/Ukraine/ Russia situation on 00:48 - Jul 17 with 1262 views | Kropotkin123 |
"You overlooked the point that the article wasn't written in your own language and criticised it as such."
No I didn't. When I say badly written, I'm talking about what information is included and excluded. Not spelling and grammar or language of origin.
Again, I don't care that you have presented the more gloomy alternative to this conflict. I have an issue with you presenting it as the most honest and informed piece out there. Objectively it isn't. It misses a lot of information, and it is fair for me to flag this so others can read that piece knowing there are people that disagree with your narrative.
After made my point, you suggested I considered your piece propaganda, you are now suggesting the telegraphs piece that presented both sides is propaganda. You also keep arguing against points I haven't raised.
I think you a triggered. If you are going to present something as the most informed and truthful, you should be willing to accept pushback when others don't agree, without resorting accusations of propaganda. [Post edited 17 Jul 2023 0:50]
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| Submit your 1-24 league prediction here -https://www.twtd.co.uk/forum/514096/page:1 - for the opportunity to get a free Ipswich top. | | Poll: | Would you rather | | Blog: | Round Four: Eagle |
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| [Redacted] on 01:20 - Jul 17 with 1237 views | victorywilhappen |
| A good assessment of the NATO/Ukraine/ Russia situation on 00:48 - Jul 17 by Kropotkin123 |
"You overlooked the point that the article wasn't written in your own language and criticised it as such."
No I didn't. When I say badly written, I'm talking about what information is included and excluded. Not spelling and grammar or language of origin.
Again, I don't care that you have presented the more gloomy alternative to this conflict. I have an issue with you presenting it as the most honest and informed piece out there. Objectively it isn't. It misses a lot of information, and it is fair for me to flag this so others can read that piece knowing there are people that disagree with your narrative.
After made my point, you suggested I considered your piece propaganda, you are now suggesting the telegraphs piece that presented both sides is propaganda. You also keep arguing against points I haven't raised.
I think you a triggered. If you are going to present something as the most informed and truthful, you should be willing to accept pushback when others don't agree, without resorting accusations of propaganda. [Post edited 17 Jul 2023 0:50]
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| A good assessment of the NATO/Ukraine/ Russia situation on 07:41 - Jul 17 with 1159 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| A good assessment of the NATO/Ukraine/ Russia situation on 19:59 - Jul 16 by WicklowBlue |
I'm not sure about this piece. Did anyone realistically expect NATO to give a formal invitation to Ukraine? From the outset the mood music was against this and would drag NATO into defending its newest territory. Thus amplifying tensions between the US and Russia. Russia must already be smarting from Finland joining NATO and Sweden about to join the party. Surely that is exactly against Putin's thinking for waging war on Ukraine? I.e. A NATO expansion on Russia's borders.
Alongside the above, I don't see any reference to instability in Russia itself. Was the Wagner "March on Moscow" a PR stunt? Seems like another General was relieved of his duties in the last 24 hours which has not gone down well with the troops. Of course we all seek out news that fits our narrative and I defer to people closer to the east. But I'm not sure Putin will be coming out of this war in a stronger position than before it, nor Russia imho.
It will take compromises on both sides to reach an agreement but let's not forget who caused this conflict, so that side should pay the most. |
“Russia must already be smarting from Finland joining NATO and Sweden about to join the party. Surely that is exactly against Putin's thinking for waging war on Ukraine? I.e. A NATO expansion on Russia's borders. “
I always find this an odd point, and one that ties Putin’s argument up in knots. Had he been successful in his invasion and swallowed up Ukraine, he’d have achieved anoer FOUR borders with NATO. |  | | |
| A good assessment of the NATO/Ukraine/ Russia situation on 10:15 - Jul 17 with 1096 views | Eireannach_gorm |
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| A good assessment of the NATO/Ukraine/ Russia situation on 10:26 - Jul 17 with 1077 views | blueasfook |
NATO's stance is same as it always been, they wouldnt admit a new country that was already in conflict. It would be basically jumping into a ready-made war. |  |
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| A good assessment of the NATO/Ukraine/ Russia situation on 10:30 - Jul 17 with 1075 views | PhilTWTD |
| A good assessment of the NATO/Ukraine/ Russia situation on 10:26 - Jul 17 by blueasfook |
NATO's stance is same as it always been, they wouldnt admit a new country that was already in conflict. It would be basically jumping into a ready-made war. |
Indeed, as Biden said last week. Asked how long after the war it would take for Ukraine to be admitted, he said, "an hour and 20 minutes".
https://www.reuters.com/world/biden-looks-forward-ukraine-nato-membership-just-n |  | | |
| A good assessment of the NATO/Ukraine/ Russia situation on 10:42 - Jul 17 with 1034 views | WeWereZombies |
| A good assessment of the NATO/Ukraine/ Russia situation on 10:15 - Jul 17 by Eireannach_gorm |
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Just the one Russian invading, is it ? | |
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| A good assessment of the NATO/Ukraine/ Russia situation on 11:04 - Jul 17 with 1012 views | WeWereZombies |
You rightly say a generalisation, I still find it difficult to believe that the culture that gave us Tolstoy and depth of insight into the human condition, Gogol and his acerbic take on motivations, Ostrovsky's withering plays, Pasternak's doomed romanticism and more recently Zvyagintsev's films rooted in tragedy can be entirely, or largely, hero worshipping. Anymore so than Britain can be seen as populated by Colonel Blimps for the most part. And those examples I have just given are only from the European end of Russia, perhaps there are too many Russias to generalise about ? | |
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