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260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 09:05 - Oct 12 by BanksterDebtSlave
“yeah but what about”. Shameless. You really have got a hard on for me at the moment haven't you...I have described the actions of Hamas as inhuman and barbaric on multiple occasions but fill your boots.
'Got a hard on for you' pretty disgusting thing to suggest.
However I guess neither GB or I buy your crocodile tears for the inhuman suffering that Hamas inflicted on innocent Israelis.
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260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 09:57 - Oct 12 with 2319 views
260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 09:44 - Oct 12 by MattinLondon
So do you think that someone trying to understand the root cause of a conflict is either justifying it or attempting to ‘yeah but what about…..?
Like most terrorist attacks - including the IRA - such actions have historical foundations which need to be addressed. Individuals aren’t pre-programmed to hate or kill other people, that comes from years of being conditioned to do so.
Indeed, I have tried to put myself in the position of someone that might have seen their baby crushed by an Israeli airstrike in 2014 (when over 200 under 8's were killed) and think about how I might respond in the Gazan context. I would like to think it wouldn't involve killing other innocents but I can't be certain of it.
The "Yeah but the other side...." put down is thoroughly disingenuous and GB should be ashamed of himself for this deliberate misrepresentation based on a personal grudge.
"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 09:39 - Oct 12 by Zapers
Why gosh? Starmer is clearly not Corbyn, thank God.
I'm reluctant to carry on this discussion on this thread, given what GB has said. But as I have made clear in the last couple of days, I don't take sides in the Israel/Palestine conflict (but fully accept Israel's right to exist and defend itself) and I regard what happened at the Kibbutz as a pogrom. But I don't agree that two wrongs make a right. And if you followed my response to comments in response to my post you will see that I made it perfectly clear that Starmer could have backed Israel's absolute right to defend itself, without supporting a siege which is in breach of international law, and affects innocent civilians many of whom are children.
Indeed, I went on to make the following point.
"I suppose the main issue I have, and leaving aside the current conflict, is that there now appears to be no difference in security/foreign policy terms between the two main parties, but such unanimity got us involved in the disasters of Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya"
But when it comes to the siege, this from Humza Yousaf's mother-in-law, who is trapped there, shows the impact on innocent people.
EDIT: I think Biden did get it right, both in his condemnation of the attack, and support for Israel, but also with his call for restraint.
260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 10:02 - Oct 12 by DJR
I'm reluctant to carry on this discussion on this thread, given what GB has said. But as I have made clear in the last couple of days, I don't take sides in the Israel/Palestine conflict (but fully accept Israel's right to exist and defend itself) and I regard what happened at the Kibbutz as a pogrom. But I don't agree that two wrongs make a right. And if you followed my response to comments in response to my post you will see that I made it perfectly clear that Starmer could have backed Israel's absolute right to defend itself, without supporting a siege which is in breach of international law, and affects innocent civilians many of whom are children.
Indeed, I went on to make the following point.
"I suppose the main issue I have, and leaving aside the current conflict, is that there now appears to be no difference in security/foreign policy terms between the two main parties, but such unanimity got us involved in the disasters of Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya"
But when it comes to the siege, this from Humza Yousaf's mother-in-law, who is trapped there, shows the impact on innocent people.
EDIT: I think Biden did get it right, both in his condemnation of the attack, and support for Israel, but also with his call for restraint.
260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 10:04 - Oct 12 by Buhrer
Its a word game when that's how you chose to pose it to strangers on football forum. As you did.
Perhaps you should start your really incredibly constructive thread again. Might last this time and everyone can see your ghoulish glee.
If that is your interpretation of the thread then you really aren't worth the time of day!
As a general point however....words are important as they tell stories, shape narratives and help form responses. So here are two more words for you, "Inhuman animals."
"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 09:57 - Oct 12 by BanksterDebtSlave
Indeed, I have tried to put myself in the position of someone that might have seen their baby crushed by an Israeli airstrike in 2014 (when over 200 under 8's were killed) and think about how I might respond in the Gazan context. I would like to think it wouldn't involve killing other innocents but I can't be certain of it.
The "Yeah but the other side...." put down is thoroughly disingenuous and GB should be ashamed of himself for this deliberate misrepresentation based on a personal grudge.
To be disgusted with both sides past actions shouldn’t be open to condemnation. It’s the ordinary people on both sides that always suffers.
A Palestinian child who sees their mum and dad die in an Israeli air strike - that keeps the conflict going for another generation. An Israeli sees their mum and dad die by Hamas rockets- that keeps the conflict going for another generation.
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260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 11:09 - Oct 12 with 2136 views
260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 10:02 - Oct 12 by DJR
I'm reluctant to carry on this discussion on this thread, given what GB has said. But as I have made clear in the last couple of days, I don't take sides in the Israel/Palestine conflict (but fully accept Israel's right to exist and defend itself) and I regard what happened at the Kibbutz as a pogrom. But I don't agree that two wrongs make a right. And if you followed my response to comments in response to my post you will see that I made it perfectly clear that Starmer could have backed Israel's absolute right to defend itself, without supporting a siege which is in breach of international law, and affects innocent civilians many of whom are children.
Indeed, I went on to make the following point.
"I suppose the main issue I have, and leaving aside the current conflict, is that there now appears to be no difference in security/foreign policy terms between the two main parties, but such unanimity got us involved in the disasters of Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya"
But when it comes to the siege, this from Humza Yousaf's mother-in-law, who is trapped there, shows the impact on innocent people.
EDIT: I think Biden did get it right, both in his condemnation of the attack, and support for Israel, but also with his call for restraint.
Also reluctant to carry on debating here when things so quickly descend into inter-personal attacks, perhaps that’s a micro example of how hard humans find it not to escalate disagreements!
Thank goodness Biden’s shown some proper leadership on this - at last. Quite something when appointed leaders of the western world support Israel action unequivocally, while the UN has condemned those same actions as barbaric.
To echo Glasgow_Blue's derision of my suggestions for diplomacy to be paramount a couple of days ago - do you think that Hamas will take much notice of the pleas of ordinary Palestinians ?
And now the Iranian President is weighing in with accusations of genocide by Israel (see BBC live feed at 09:42) and he will get traction in some quarters because of the tragic turns that already tragic events are taking.
It will illustrate just how little Hamas cares about ordinary Palestinians when there is such a simple solution to end their people living without water and electricity.
The hostages should be released and this should be brought to an end - Hamas are monsters
260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 11:14 - Oct 12 by itfcjoe
It will illustrate just how little Hamas cares about ordinary Palestinians when there is such a simple solution to end their people living without water and electricity.
The hostages should be released and this should be brought to an end - Hamas are monsters
Hamas are monsters, full-stop.
I guess if you put yourself in the mindset of a Palestinian then you might see things differently. According to a recent poll, just over 50% of the Palestinian population in Gaza, support the aims of Hamas. That’s not saying that they support what has happened during the past few days. But they probably view Hamas as an organisation that attack Israel - a country which they see as settling on their land and treating them poorly.
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260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 11:31 - Oct 12 with 2079 views
260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 11:14 - Oct 12 by itfcjoe
It will illustrate just how little Hamas cares about ordinary Palestinians when there is such a simple solution to end their people living without water and electricity.
The hostages should be released and this should be brought to an end - Hamas are monsters
Certainly the hostages should be released as soon as possible, but they won't be. My point is about Israel's response being a false step internationally and giving undue credibility to Iran and other supporters of Hamas.
260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 19:54 - Oct 11 by Ryorry
The whole "Israel has our unequivocal, solid support" is shocking and bizarre - I'm guessing that upcoming elections in the UK & US, with a significant number of Jewish votes up for grabs, is the underlying reason.
You'd have thought for once, in a situation which is a tinder box & which has the capacity for dangerous & rapid escalation with proxy "supporter" countries joining in, the usual major supporters of Israel could have used that as a lever to persuade Israel to desist from a barbarc siege which will have a devastating effect on ordinary Palestinian people, but not on Hamas - who aren't the kind of rational, reasonable people who'd put the welfare of the general population they claim to be fighting for, ahead of their jihadi aims.
Maybe it's intended for behind the scenes discussion, but I doubt it. There don't seem to be any true statesmen/women around.
[Post edited 11 Oct 2023 19:56]
I had to leave this thread after for my mental health but curiosity got the better of me. After what we have witnessed this week you’re calling Israel barbaric, have you lost your mind. This is a planned co-ordinated brutal terror attack. What do you want then to do, say that’s not very nice don’t do it again?
Hamas are utter SCUM, they’ve use their own civilians as human shields and have for years. They behead babies, they murder entire families in cold blood. I made myself watch the images this week, I saw it all, horrifying and it’s enemy that you can’t negotiate with or comprehend they’d do that to human beings. They are evil and all the blood is on their hands.
I get differences of opinion but some on this board have disappointed me this week. I’ll just leave it there I guess.
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260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 02:07 - Oct 13 with 1709 views
260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 00:55 - Oct 13 by Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior
I had to leave this thread after for my mental health but curiosity got the better of me. After what we have witnessed this week you’re calling Israel barbaric, have you lost your mind. This is a planned co-ordinated brutal terror attack. What do you want then to do, say that’s not very nice don’t do it again?
Hamas are utter SCUM, they’ve use their own civilians as human shields and have for years. They behead babies, they murder entire families in cold blood. I made myself watch the images this week, I saw it all, horrifying and it’s enemy that you can’t negotiate with or comprehend they’d do that to human beings. They are evil and all the blood is on their hands.
I get differences of opinion but some on this board have disappointed me this week. I’ll just leave it there I guess.
No I haven't "lost my mind", a disgusting & unwarranted comment that you should apologise for.
Yes I call the actions of any person, people, organisation or country who decides to kill a whole population of civilians, including children, by starvation, dehydration, denial of medical help and shelter, "barbaric". The UN has said the same. If you want to oppose the UN & carry on thinking such behaviour is *not* barbaric, then I can't help you, nor can anyone else, it's for you to live with.
I've said numerous times on this thread & others re the current Middle East Crisis that what Hamas did is "beyond horrifying" (my actual words iirc) & barbaric. I've also said dozens of times on previous threads re Israel/Palestine, that Israel has every right to defend itself, that I understand its historic fears given its creation as a homeland and refuge for Jews who've suffered centuries of persecution, and as someone who also spent 7 months in the 70s working on various kibbutzim there, that I also understand their permanent state of fear when they are the targets of incoming rockets on a daily basis.
But there are ways of retaliating (as Biden has now stated) that do *not* include actions which many have described as war crimes. Two wrongs do not make a right. The Israeli Govt. should be better & have a higher moral compass than a toddler giving tit for tat with the excuse "s/he started it first".
Edit: And anticipating any questions re what alternative retaliation within the rules of war there might be for Israel - well I’m not a military tactician, but I’d have thought stealthy infiltration by SAS style units into the Hamas underground tunnels, where the hostages are probably being held, would be more effective, with less loss of life, and at the very least be targeting Hamas itself, ie the actual perpetrators of the unspeakable attacks on Israelis - not indiscriminately sentencing innocent civilians to slow deaths.
Stuff like this never used to bother me, but having young twins... I have no words to express what the families are going through on both sides.
Last night I had my dinner whilst watching House of Games, went off to play 6 a side, had a quick trip to Sainsbury's to pick up some milk and a Lucozade Sport, then drove home to the countryside, had a warm shower and cuddled down with the Mrs to watch Taskmaster.
At no point was I concerned that I'd have a band of nutters come in to our village trying to kill us all or that I was going to have my home bombed to smithereens because of the horrific actions of others. We had water, food and shelter. We're just a normal family trying to go about our lives like these people that have been massacred and displaced by both the deplorable actions of Hamas and the heavy-handed response of the Israelis.
Lex Talionis. Eye for an eye. But eye for an eye makes the world go blind.
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260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 07:41 - Oct 13 with 1621 views
260 bodies recovered from desert rave on 07:37 - Oct 13 by RobTheMonk
Stuff like this never used to bother me, but having young twins... I have no words to express what the families are going through on both sides.
Last night I had my dinner whilst watching House of Games, went off to play 6 a side, had a quick trip to Sainsbury's to pick up some milk and a Lucozade Sport, then drove home to the countryside, had a warm shower and cuddled down with the Mrs to watch Taskmaster.
At no point was I concerned that I'd have a band of nutters come in to our village trying to kill us all or that I was going to have my home bombed to smithereens because of the horrific actions of others. We had water, food and shelter. We're just a normal family trying to go about our lives like these people that have been massacred and displaced by both the deplorable actions of Hamas and the heavy-handed response of the Israelis.
Lex Talionis. Eye for an eye. But eye for an eye makes the world go blind.
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