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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? 19:54 - Nov 2 with 257329 viewsnoggin

Yeah but Owen Jones...
[Post edited 3 Nov 2023 9:05]

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:35 - Nov 7 with 3228 viewseireblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:22 - Nov 7 by Darth_Koont

And I think a desire not to see an even worse catastrophe in Gaza, as we’re seeing, is still a valid one.

We’re surely talking here about the international response and de-escalation based on the needs of both Palestinian and Israeli civilians rather than justifying and fueling an escalation with a similarly extremist response.

It’s not about one side and seeing everything from that perspective. Which unfortunately is exactly the problem with our approach to Israel/Palestine, before and after the October 7th atrocities.


Why would Hamas de-escalate from 8th Oct onwards?

They were still firing rocket a few days ago.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:45 - Nov 7 with 3177 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:35 - Nov 7 by eireblue

Why would Hamas de-escalate from 8th Oct onwards?

They were still firing rocket a few days ago.


Firing the usual rockets is a de-escalation from Oct 7th as it’s back to “normality”. As horrible as that is.

The Israeli response can similarly be de-escalated from it’s current war-criminal levels and massive loss of civilian lives back to the routine occupation and oppression of another people. As horrible as that is.

But where we are now, with both sets of extremists running the show and shaping the future in their image, needs to stop. And that’s the future for Palestinians and Gazans, before we even get into the effect of such a murderously barbaric escalation on the wider world and its increasing tensions.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:55 - Nov 7 with 3120 viewsGlasgowBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:22 - Nov 7 by Darth_Koont

And I think a desire not to see an even worse catastrophe in Gaza, as we’re seeing, is still a valid one.

We’re surely talking here about the international response and de-escalation based on the needs of both Palestinian and Israeli civilians rather than justifying and fueling an escalation with a similarly extremist response.

It’s not about one side and seeing everything from that perspective. Which unfortunately is exactly the problem with our approach to Israel/Palestine, before and after the October 7th atrocities.


And again you swerve. No one is denying what is going on in Gaza is horrific. But once again, Joe said "And Israel were being criticised before they had even retaliated, they didn't even have the weekend it happened where they were allowed to grief, by angry, be scared without a 'yeah, but...." and you denied this happened.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:02 - Nov 7 with 3118 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:55 - Nov 7 by GlasgowBlue

And again you swerve. No one is denying what is going on in Gaza is horrific. But once again, Joe said "And Israel were being criticised before they had even retaliated, they didn't even have the weekend it happened where they were allowed to grief, by angry, be scared without a 'yeah, but...." and you denied this happened.


So at the second attempt you bring in Bankster’s comment about this not existing in a vacuum with the number of Palestinian lives lost.

Now, that wouldn’t have been my personal choice but it’s no more offensive than the people on this current thread who insist on bringing in the Hamas massacre as some kind of balance in an actually ongoing war crime and humanitarian disaster.

So if you want me to agree that there’s a time and a place and people shouldn’t both sides this at every opportunity then yes, I agree.

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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 14:03 - Nov 7 with 3118 viewsZapers

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 09:04 - Nov 7 by noggin

Sorry, but your post seemed to indicate that you accept the murder of, to date, 10000 Palestinians because they may or may not have been used as human shields. The attacks by Israel are clearly not 'self defence' and they are clearly not interested in saving their citizens who are being held hostage. This is revenge and genocide and you are supporting it.
The bombing of Gaza is not eradicating extremism, it's promoting it's growth. Surely you can see that?


If you say so....however i'm still waiting for your solution.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:04 - Nov 7 with 3113 viewsSuperKieranMcKenna

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:45 - Nov 7 by Darth_Koont

Firing the usual rockets is a de-escalation from Oct 7th as it’s back to “normality”. As horrible as that is.

The Israeli response can similarly be de-escalated from it’s current war-criminal levels and massive loss of civilian lives back to the routine occupation and oppression of another people. As horrible as that is.

But where we are now, with both sets of extremists running the show and shaping the future in their image, needs to stop. And that’s the future for Palestinians and Gazans, before we even get into the effect of such a murderously barbaric escalation on the wider world and its increasing tensions.


Speaking of escalation, not content with attacking Israel via various neighbouring countries, Iran has also started drone and rocket attacks on US bases in the region.

Whilst the US and UK have been poor in terms of publicly criticising Israel, it’s Iran that are out there right now actually killing people - not the West.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:06 - Nov 7 with 3091 viewsnoggin

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:04 - Nov 7 by SuperKieranMcKenna

Speaking of escalation, not content with attacking Israel via various neighbouring countries, Iran has also started drone and rocket attacks on US bases in the region.

Whilst the US and UK have been poor in terms of publicly criticising Israel, it’s Iran that are out there right now actually killing people - not the West.


"Whilst the US and UK have been poor in terms of publicly criticising Israel, it’s Iran that are out there right now actually killing people - not the West."

By proxy, that's exactly what the US and Britain is doing.

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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 14:09 - Nov 7 with 3060 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 14:03 - Nov 7 by Zapers

If you say so....however i'm still waiting for your solution.


Negotiation. Based on a recognition of the full picture and the perspectives and rights of both sets of civilians.

Feck Hamas and feck Netanyahu if they don’t like it. Nobody internationally at least should be giving legitimacy to either Hamas or Netanyahu and his goons, certainly not now as they try to “solve” this in the only way they know how with more violence against more innocent victims.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:12 - Nov 7 with 3037 viewsSuperKieranMcKenna

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:06 - Nov 7 by noggin

"Whilst the US and UK have been poor in terms of publicly criticising Israel, it’s Iran that are out there right now actually killing people - not the West."

By proxy, that's exactly what the US and Britain is doing.


The Uk are in no way controlling the actions of Israel. Israel have already told the US won’t commit to a ceasefire or negotiations. So if the US cannot control the IDF, to suggest Sunak is controlling them by proxy is ridiculous, but not unexpected for you.

Edit - I look forward you your evidence, or I suggest you consult a dictionary.
[Post edited 7 Nov 2023 14:15]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:15 - Nov 7 with 3011 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:12 - Nov 7 by SuperKieranMcKenna

The Uk are in no way controlling the actions of Israel. Israel have already told the US won’t commit to a ceasefire or negotiations. So if the US cannot control the IDF, to suggest Sunak is controlling them by proxy is ridiculous, but not unexpected for you.

Edit - I look forward you your evidence, or I suggest you consult a dictionary.
[Post edited 7 Nov 2023 14:15]


You have a fairly specious interpretation of proxy wars.

Are you saying that this is Iran controlling Hamas? Or more a backer, arms-supplier and influencer like we do for Israel and the Saudis?

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:15 - Nov 7 with 3014 viewsnoggin

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:12 - Nov 7 by SuperKieranMcKenna

The Uk are in no way controlling the actions of Israel. Israel have already told the US won’t commit to a ceasefire or negotiations. So if the US cannot control the IDF, to suggest Sunak is controlling them by proxy is ridiculous, but not unexpected for you.

Edit - I look forward you your evidence, or I suggest you consult a dictionary.
[Post edited 7 Nov 2023 14:15]


They're both continuing to supply arms to Israel.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:19 - Nov 7 with 2985 viewsSuperKieranMcKenna

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:15 - Nov 7 by noggin

They're both continuing to supply arms to Israel.


That’s not what proxy means. That’s just one country selling another country some weapons. Israel also buys weapons from Russia, so perhaps Putin is conducting a proxy war by your definition.

Iran almost certainly has influence over the actions of proxies such as Hezbollah.
[Post edited 7 Nov 2023 14:20]
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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 14:21 - Nov 7 with 2977 viewsZapers

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 14:09 - Nov 7 by Darth_Koont

Negotiation. Based on a recognition of the full picture and the perspectives and rights of both sets of civilians.

Feck Hamas and feck Netanyahu if they don’t like it. Nobody internationally at least should be giving legitimacy to either Hamas or Netanyahu and his goons, certainly not now as they try to “solve” this in the only way they know how with more violence against more innocent victims.


That's never going to happen. When i said solution, i meant a workable one.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:24 - Nov 7 with 2949 viewseireblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:45 - Nov 7 by Darth_Koont

Firing the usual rockets is a de-escalation from Oct 7th as it’s back to “normality”. As horrible as that is.

The Israeli response can similarly be de-escalated from it’s current war-criminal levels and massive loss of civilian lives back to the routine occupation and oppression of another people. As horrible as that is.

But where we are now, with both sets of extremists running the show and shaping the future in their image, needs to stop. And that’s the future for Palestinians and Gazans, before we even get into the effect of such a murderously barbaric escalation on the wider world and its increasing tensions.


So back to the same circumstances as pre-Oct 7th, except Hamas has 200 hostages, and just had a victory.

Why would Hamas stop killing people?
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:25 - Nov 7 with 2937 viewsnoggin

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:19 - Nov 7 by SuperKieranMcKenna

That’s not what proxy means. That’s just one country selling another country some weapons. Israel also buys weapons from Russia, so perhaps Putin is conducting a proxy war by your definition.

Iran almost certainly has influence over the actions of proxies such as Hezbollah.
[Post edited 7 Nov 2023 14:20]


Are Britain and America selling weapons to Russia right now?

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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 14:31 - Nov 7 with 2887 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 14:21 - Nov 7 by Zapers

That's never going to happen. When i said solution, i meant a workable one.


That is workable. It’s been repeated around the world.

We’re no longer in a time where peace can be achieved by wiping out or at least dominating another people into submission. That’s already the central failure in Israel/Palestine.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:37 - Nov 7 with 2866 viewsSuperKieranMcKenna

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:25 - Nov 7 by noggin

Are Britain and America selling weapons to Russia right now?


Not back with any evidence then?

I assume you are aware Israel isn’t even a significant arms export market for the UK? Not even in the top 20. Israel buys more from Russia than the UK.

I’ll ask again then, in what way is the UK conducting a proxy conflict. We have no real influence on Israeli defence policy, and we aren’t even a significant supplier of weapons.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:41 - Nov 7 with 2838 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:24 - Nov 7 by eireblue

So back to the same circumstances as pre-Oct 7th, except Hamas has 200 hostages, and just had a victory.

Why would Hamas stop killing people?


Why would Israel stop the settlers and settler violence forcing people from their homes in the West Bank?

That’s not a glib response, just that there are clearly no solutions to the wider conflict in a ceasefire per se*. But the chance to talk about better solutions for the civilians caught in the middle.

*Although not killing another 10,000 people or many, many more is a direct and important solution right now. And I’ve heard no explanation of a realistic or satisfactory result from the Gaza offensive.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:45 - Nov 7 with 2827 viewsnoggin

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:37 - Nov 7 by SuperKieranMcKenna

Not back with any evidence then?

I assume you are aware Israel isn’t even a significant arms export market for the UK? Not even in the top 20. Israel buys more from Russia than the UK.

I’ll ask again then, in what way is the UK conducting a proxy conflict. We have no real influence on Israeli defence policy, and we aren’t even a significant supplier of weapons.


Well any country providing arms to an aggressor, during attacks on civilian targets, is complicit in the deaths of those civilians. In fact, any government even showing support for that aggressor, is complicit. Not in my name.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:07 - Nov 7 with 2779 viewsSuperKieranMcKenna

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:45 - Nov 7 by noggin

Well any country providing arms to an aggressor, during attacks on civilian targets, is complicit in the deaths of those civilians. In fact, any government even showing support for that aggressor, is complicit. Not in my name.


Okay so we aren’t actively targeting civilians via proxies we control like Iran then. Thanks

I’ve been consistent in criticising the UK stance, but to suggest we are in a proxy conflict just doesn’t stand up. We literally have no control over Israeli defence policy, neither does the US as they are now finding out. Iran has a lot of influence over Hezbollah and other factions int he region.

The question about arming Israel is a difficult one, they are surrounded by hostile states with larger militaries. Countries that openly call for the destruction of Israel and have of course attacked it in the past. If they did not have access to advanced weaponry they could face an existential threat not seen since the holocaust. But how do you then ensure they aren’t used immorally against civilians? That’s the catch 22 the West faces.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:17 - Nov 7 with 2755 viewsNthQldITFC

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:17 - Nov 7 by SuperKieranMcKenna

He was talking about Obama, not Corbyn.


I assumed he was talking about me - I was trying to keep it quiet!

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How can Israelis and Palestinians continue living in a constant state of fear ? on 15:28 - Nov 7 with 2721 viewsWeWereZombies

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:07 - Nov 7 by SuperKieranMcKenna

Okay so we aren’t actively targeting civilians via proxies we control like Iran then. Thanks

I’ve been consistent in criticising the UK stance, but to suggest we are in a proxy conflict just doesn’t stand up. We literally have no control over Israeli defence policy, neither does the US as they are now finding out. Iran has a lot of influence over Hezbollah and other factions int he region.

The question about arming Israel is a difficult one, they are surrounded by hostile states with larger militaries. Countries that openly call for the destruction of Israel and have of course attacked it in the past. If they did not have access to advanced weaponry they could face an existential threat not seen since the holocaust. But how do you then ensure they aren’t used immorally against civilians? That’s the catch 22 the West faces.


I am not sure that Israel are completely surrounded by hostile states with larger militaries, Jordan has been at peace through a treaty with Israel since 1994 and is itself compromised by remaining host to large numbers of refugees from Iraq so not in the most favourable position to become belligerent towards another nation (although I did experience the most severe 'keep out of this, it's between me and the taxi driver' look ever on the approach road over a dam in Jordan when the car was stopped by an undercover, I guess, Special Operations guy. My head turned involuntarily forward immediately.) But Israel's West Bank incursions and general attitude is probably responsible for a deteriorating situation between the two nations, it needs a new administration in Israel to rescue a valuable relationship. Probably with Egypt as well.

https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/jordan-still-has-vital-role-

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 20:01 - Nov 7 with 2600 viewseireblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:41 - Nov 7 by Darth_Koont

Why would Israel stop the settlers and settler violence forcing people from their homes in the West Bank?

That’s not a glib response, just that there are clearly no solutions to the wider conflict in a ceasefire per se*. But the chance to talk about better solutions for the civilians caught in the middle.

*Although not killing another 10,000 people or many, many more is a direct and important solution right now. And I’ve heard no explanation of a realistic or satisfactory result from the Gaza offensive.


Unfortunately, in my opinion, it is a glib response.

Why link the two problems, Hamas don’t.
The only interest Hamas have in the West Bank is supporting new terrorist groups.

Nobody is suggesting how to stop 30,000 Hammas terrorists continue to kill and terrorise people.
Only how it shouldn’t be done.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:06 - Nov 7 with 2578 viewsredrickstuhaart

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 20:01 - Nov 7 by eireblue

Unfortunately, in my opinion, it is a glib response.

Why link the two problems, Hamas don’t.
The only interest Hamas have in the West Bank is supporting new terrorist groups.

Nobody is suggesting how to stop 30,000 Hammas terrorists continue to kill and terrorise people.
Only how it shouldn’t be done.


It's inexorably linked. Hamas support comes from religious fervour borne of injustice and having little to lose.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 22:24 - Nov 7 with 2549 viewseireblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:06 - Nov 7 by redrickstuhaart

It's inexorably linked. Hamas support comes from religious fervour borne of injustice and having little to lose.


So if the West Bank problem was solved, Hamas would give up?

Hamas had a war with Fatah to control Gaza.

You really think Hamas would relinquish their control of Gaza, lay down arms, because Fatah or another Palestinian political group managed to broker peace in the West Bank?

The issue is quite simple, and not linked, how do you stop Hamas killing people.
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