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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? 19:54 - Nov 2 with 246653 viewsnoggin

Yeah but Owen Jones...
[Post edited 3 Nov 2023 9:05]

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:14 - Nov 9 with 3549 viewsSuperKieranMcKenna

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:53 - Nov 9 by eireblue

Everyone is horrified by what is happening. Nobody wants to see senseless death.

Apart from Hamas.

This conflict will be horrendous:
There is no strategic advantage for Hamas to be separated from civilians.

As GB was saying, wouldn’t it be great if Hamas agreed to all non-combatants to be evacuated, for now let’s not even consider the logistics about moving 2 Million people out of harms way, Hamas won’t let that happen painlessly.

In a straight-up military fight, combatants vs combatants, Hamas would be destroyed.

Hamas already intimidates and kill Palestinians that oppose them, there are reports that Hamas was telling civilians to go back home ignore what Israel said about evacuating, and it probably wasn’t a polite request.

This a quote that should be considered. In 2014, the Hamas spokesperson Sami Abu Zuhari told al-Aqsa TV: “Hamas despises those defeatist Palestinians who criticise the high number of civilian casualties. The resistance praises our people … we lead our people to death … I mean, to war.”

In any scenario that Hamas remains an armed force, people will be killed by them and because of them.

Someone has to be responsible for destroying the current Hamas terrorists.

Expressing horror at what is happening, and wanting to see it stop is of course what people want.

Unfortunately I can’t see why a ceasefire now will do anything other than what other ceasefires achieved in the past, which is an increase in deaths at some point in the future.

People should try a thought experiment of thinking tactically like a Hamas terrorist, you would quite like a ceasefire, because it will allow you to move your resources back into the south, in an even more compact place, with even more density of civilians.

I don’t see daily calls for Hamas to stop being cowards, get out of the way of civilians and fight properly.

No ceasefire with Hamas has stopped or decreased the killings. Just paused them for a bit.
The last ceasefire started in 2021, and was ended on Oct 7th.

If ceasefires worked, Oct 7th wouldn’t have happened.

I can’t see anyone proposing an alternative on how to stop Hamas killing people.

And for those people saying, everyone is ignoring what happened pre Oct 7th, that’s nonsense.
It is the opposite that is true. Many things tried haven’t worked up to Oct 7th.

Don’t pretend ceasefires and negotiations haven’t been tried, don’t pretend Hamas won’t kill people given the chance, don’t pretend Hamas haven’t been an authoritarian regime quashing any internal attempts to dislodge them.

Sure debate that history and competency and comment on extremes on both sides, and religious intolerance in general.

Meanwhile, on October the 8th there were 30,000 terrorists with plenty of food, water, weapons, hostages, and 2 Million people to hide behind, who have just had their biggest victory, and are threatening more of the same.


“In a straight-up military fight, combatants vs combatants, Hamas would be destroyed.”

As you correctly say Hamas won’t stay and fight, they’ll blend in with civilians as they have in the past. They’ll disappear with refugees, hide with Palestinian civilians in the South of Gaza, in schools and hospitals, and perhaps Egypt if/when the border is open.

With that in mind, how can Israel practically destroy Hamas? I don’t think it’s possible in reality without an occupation of Gaza by Israel. That might be something Israel looks to do, but they will end up with an insurgency problem like in Iraq and Afghanistan. Iran will continue to provide weapons and funding, and possibly foreign jihadists as we’ve seen in other conflicts in the region.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:17 - Nov 9 with 3530 viewslowhouseblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:11 - Nov 9 by Darth_Koont

That’s pretending that the Israeli regime isn’t murderously extreme and similarly committed to senseless death as we’re seeing.

It’s also ignoring the underlying situation where Palestinians in general are the enemy and have been occupied, oppressed, dehumanised and brutalised for years EVEN in the West Bank without Hamas.

Any escalation from that underlying situation, whether it’s Hamas’s “military” action that targets civilians or the Israeli government asserting its “right to self-defence” that targets civilians, is an obstacle to peace and is ignoring the lives, well-being and futures of millions.

Ceasefire now!


"That’s pretending that the Israeli regime isn’t murderously extreme and similarly committed to senseless death as we’re seeing."

an entirely false equivalence and extremely blinkered, agenda driven and offensive. similar to your take on the history that got us here.

And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:26 - Nov 9 with 3488 viewsDarth_Koont

There are no easy solutions especially when carpet bombing leaves dead cities? on 10:07 - Nov 9 by WeWereZombies

All very relevant and informative but I have to ask 'why didn't the Israeli administration in decades past give more support to the Palestinian Authority (and before that co-operate to a greater degree with Fatah) when they could see what was happening with Hamas in Gaza ?'

And I will give you an answer. Fear enabled right wing extremists to take control of successive Israeli administrations (I have been told that the centre and left in Israel are now hopelessly weak) but all that seems to happen with this hardening of response is more brutality from Arab terrorists (please remember that few Arabs are terrorists but those that are get a lot of exposure.) Hamas might get eradicated but something will replace them, and with so many suffering personal loss the seeds of more missiles, IEDs and suicide bombers have been planted and will be difficult to counter.

So militarism leaves us weaker and we should look around the World to see where this is happening elsewhere and redouble our efforts to remains civilised, democratic and able to see opposing views and respond constructively to them even if they repel us.

Edited for change of title again...
[Post edited 9 Nov 2023 14:37]


Well said.

We’ve seen a harder, dangerously far-right and racist Israeli leadership and support emerging over the past decade or more, even if you restrict this to just the West Bank and where Hamas is on the sidelines.

It’s clear that without de-escalation and significant international intervention that we are heading towards something a lot worse for one or both sets of civilians.

Pronouns: He/Him

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:29 - Nov 9 with 3471 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:17 - Nov 9 by lowhouseblue

"That’s pretending that the Israeli regime isn’t murderously extreme and similarly committed to senseless death as we’re seeing."

an entirely false equivalence and extremely blinkered, agenda driven and offensive. similar to your take on the history that got us here.


The genocidal rhetoric is the same. As is the result.

I will happily condemn both Hamas and the Israeli regime and I won’t be an apologist for either. No-one should.

Pronouns: He/Him

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:39 - Nov 9 with 3422 viewslowhouseblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:29 - Nov 9 by Darth_Koont

The genocidal rhetoric is the same. As is the result.

I will happily condemn both Hamas and the Israeli regime and I won’t be an apologist for either. No-one should.


nonsense.

again false equivalence. your calls for a ceasefire are also entirely one sided.

And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:40 - Nov 9 with 3415 viewseireblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:11 - Nov 9 by Darth_Koont

That’s pretending that the Israeli regime isn’t murderously extreme and similarly committed to senseless death as we’re seeing.

It’s also ignoring the underlying situation where Palestinians in general are the enemy and have been occupied, oppressed, dehumanised and brutalised for years EVEN in the West Bank without Hamas.

Any escalation from that underlying situation, whether it’s Hamas’s “military” action that targets civilians or the Israeli government asserting its “right to self-defence” that targets civilians, is an obstacle to peace and is ignoring the lives, well-being and futures of millions.

Ceasefire now!


I haven’t ignored anything.

You can suggest a solution to stopping 30,000 terrorists, some of whom, let’s face it enjoy killing people, that doesn’t involve Israel.

Let’s say you are being perfectly civilised, having a cup of tea and some marmalade on toast, one morning post 7th of October, debating affairs of state with friends and family.

5 minutes down the road some terrorists are making sure the batteries in their Go-Pros are fully charged so that can capture round 2 of killing people.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:47 - Nov 9 with 3387 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:39 - Nov 9 by lowhouseblue

nonsense.

again false equivalence. your calls for a ceasefire are also entirely one sided.


I take the sides of the Israeli civilians and the Palestinian civilians where the rights of either can never be ignored.

And the current war on Gaza is every bit as bad as the Hamas massacre. Not least that it’s killing way more innocent people as a result. How are you supporting them or the civilians in the West Bank for that matter by refusing to stand up against war crimes and oppression?

I get the feeling that’s because you think one side is right here.

Pronouns: He/Him

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:50 - Nov 9 with 3371 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:40 - Nov 9 by eireblue

I haven’t ignored anything.

You can suggest a solution to stopping 30,000 terrorists, some of whom, let’s face it enjoy killing people, that doesn’t involve Israel.

Let’s say you are being perfectly civilised, having a cup of tea and some marmalade on toast, one morning post 7th of October, debating affairs of state with friends and family.

5 minutes down the road some terrorists are making sure the batteries in their Go-Pros are fully charged so that can capture round 2 of killing people.


Killing thousands of innocents and brutalising millions more isn’t the way to solve that. Quite the opposite, I’d suggest.

Pronouns: He/Him

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:03 - Nov 9 with 3314 viewseireblue

There are no easy solutions especially when carpet bombing leaves dead cities? on 10:07 - Nov 9 by WeWereZombies

All very relevant and informative but I have to ask 'why didn't the Israeli administration in decades past give more support to the Palestinian Authority (and before that co-operate to a greater degree with Fatah) when they could see what was happening with Hamas in Gaza ?'

And I will give you an answer. Fear enabled right wing extremists to take control of successive Israeli administrations (I have been told that the centre and left in Israel are now hopelessly weak) but all that seems to happen with this hardening of response is more brutality from Arab terrorists (please remember that few Arabs are terrorists but those that are get a lot of exposure.) Hamas might get eradicated but something will replace them, and with so many suffering personal loss the seeds of more missiles, IEDs and suicide bombers have been planted and will be difficult to counter.

So militarism leaves us weaker and we should look around the World to see where this is happening elsewhere and redouble our efforts to remains civilised, democratic and able to see opposing views and respond constructively to them even if they repel us.

Edited for change of title again...
[Post edited 9 Nov 2023 14:37]


I don’t recall that I said militarism is an answer.

Yes, let’s look around the world.

Take Sri Lanka, the terrorists were militarily defeated, then the work on rehabilitation and reconciliation started.

Ceasefires didn’t work there either, just paused the misery.

Yes, it would be nice if everyone could remain civilised.

In this case, Hamas are not.

So the question remains, you have 30,000 terrorists ready and willing to kill more people.

How do you stop a military force.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:08 - Nov 9 with 3292 viewseireblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:50 - Nov 9 by Darth_Koont

Killing thousands of innocents and brutalising millions more isn’t the way to solve that. Quite the opposite, I’d suggest.


Once again, you are telling us what you wouldn’t do.

The Go-Pros are fully charged, the toast has been finished.

Please tell us, what are you proposing to say to Hamas to stop them making more videos.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:12 - Nov 9 with 3271 viewsDarth_Koont

https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-reported-impac

If 160 kids dying every day still leaves you on the fence, here’s another ghoulish stat that suggests the current and future impact of the illegal collective punishment meted out on the Palestinian population.

312 families have each lost 10 or more family members, 189 families have each lost 6-9 members and 549 families have each lost 2-5 members.

So far. And in just over a month.

Pronouns: He/Him

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:13 - Nov 9 with 3274 viewsRyorry

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:50 - Nov 9 by Darth_Koont

Killing thousands of innocents and brutalising millions more isn’t the way to solve that. Quite the opposite, I’d suggest.


Numerous people have told you over several threads that stopping the killing, and just as importantly the *fear* of being killed (because of the fear factor which triggers both sides into pre-emptive violence themselves) has to come from BOTH sides.

One step is for Hamas to release the remaining hostages; a second would be to stop firing rockets into Israel; a third would be for their activists to step away from their own civilians who they're hiding behind, and another I'd have thought is for them to revoke their avowal to "wipe Israel off the map".

Israel might then relax from their state of extreme & permanent fear, and if Netanyahu & cabinet didn't consequently take their fingers off the triggers, they'd soon be told to in no uncertain terms by the international community.

There's no good reason whatsoever for Hamas not doing the any of the above other than bad faith.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:17 - Nov 9 with 3251 viewsZapers

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:53 - Nov 9 by eireblue

Everyone is horrified by what is happening. Nobody wants to see senseless death.

Apart from Hamas.

This conflict will be horrendous:
There is no strategic advantage for Hamas to be separated from civilians.

As GB was saying, wouldn’t it be great if Hamas agreed to all non-combatants to be evacuated, for now let’s not even consider the logistics about moving 2 Million people out of harms way, Hamas won’t let that happen painlessly.

In a straight-up military fight, combatants vs combatants, Hamas would be destroyed.

Hamas already intimidates and kill Palestinians that oppose them, there are reports that Hamas was telling civilians to go back home ignore what Israel said about evacuating, and it probably wasn’t a polite request.

This a quote that should be considered. In 2014, the Hamas spokesperson Sami Abu Zuhari told al-Aqsa TV: “Hamas despises those defeatist Palestinians who criticise the high number of civilian casualties. The resistance praises our people … we lead our people to death … I mean, to war.”

In any scenario that Hamas remains an armed force, people will be killed by them and because of them.

Someone has to be responsible for destroying the current Hamas terrorists.

Expressing horror at what is happening, and wanting to see it stop is of course what people want.

Unfortunately I can’t see why a ceasefire now will do anything other than what other ceasefires achieved in the past, which is an increase in deaths at some point in the future.

People should try a thought experiment of thinking tactically like a Hamas terrorist, you would quite like a ceasefire, because it will allow you to move your resources back into the south, in an even more compact place, with even more density of civilians.

I don’t see daily calls for Hamas to stop being cowards, get out of the way of civilians and fight properly.

No ceasefire with Hamas has stopped or decreased the killings. Just paused them for a bit.
The last ceasefire started in 2021, and was ended on Oct 7th.

If ceasefires worked, Oct 7th wouldn’t have happened.

I can’t see anyone proposing an alternative on how to stop Hamas killing people.

And for those people saying, everyone is ignoring what happened pre Oct 7th, that’s nonsense.
It is the opposite that is true. Many things tried haven’t worked up to Oct 7th.

Don’t pretend ceasefires and negotiations haven’t been tried, don’t pretend Hamas won’t kill people given the chance, don’t pretend Hamas haven’t been an authoritarian regime quashing any internal attempts to dislodge them.

Sure debate that history and competency and comment on extremes on both sides, and religious intolerance in general.

Meanwhile, on October the 8th there were 30,000 terrorists with plenty of food, water, weapons, hostages, and 2 Million people to hide behind, who have just had their biggest victory, and are threatening more of the same.


Excellent post, but will it end here?

Not whilst Hamas still have supporters.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:23 - Nov 9 with 3219 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:08 - Nov 9 by eireblue

Once again, you are telling us what you wouldn’t do.

The Go-Pros are fully charged, the toast has been finished.

Please tell us, what are you proposing to say to Hamas to stop them making more videos.


You haven’t said how you destroy Hamas.

The path to stopping violence in a conflict that is increasingly shaped by extremism is to pull back from violence and extremism not promote the next escalation as the solution. That’s the essence of the failure in Israel/Palestine from the start as well as the worsening situation.

While we seek peace via negotiation and FINALLY recognising the perspectives and rights of both the Israeli and the Palestinian civilians, Israel has proven it can protect its citizens better in the past and Hamas will be restricted to the “normality” of firing rockets and Israel will be restricted to the “normality” of corralling and blockading Gazans while encouraging the further displacement and ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from the West Bank.

To solve the current and the wider normalised situation, we need peace and negotiation anyway. And frankly that gives us the best way to marginalise and defeat the extremists on both sides and the cycle of violence they thrive on.

Pronouns: He/Him

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:25 - Nov 9 with 3208 viewsnoggin

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:17 - Nov 9 by Zapers

Excellent post, but will it end here?

Not whilst Hamas still have supporters.


So why do you think they still have supporters? Annihilating Hamas is not going to stop the hatred of Israel, any more than bombing Derry, in the 70s, would have halted support for the IRA.
[Post edited 9 Nov 2023 11:26]

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:28 - Nov 9 with 3179 viewsBlueschev

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:13 - Nov 9 by Ryorry

Numerous people have told you over several threads that stopping the killing, and just as importantly the *fear* of being killed (because of the fear factor which triggers both sides into pre-emptive violence themselves) has to come from BOTH sides.

One step is for Hamas to release the remaining hostages; a second would be to stop firing rockets into Israel; a third would be for their activists to step away from their own civilians who they're hiding behind, and another I'd have thought is for them to revoke their avowal to "wipe Israel off the map".

Israel might then relax from their state of extreme & permanent fear, and if Netanyahu & cabinet didn't consequently take their fingers off the triggers, they'd soon be told to in no uncertain terms by the international community.

There's no good reason whatsoever for Hamas not doing the any of the above other than bad faith.


To play devils advocate here, Israeli actions are repeatedly justified on the premiss that it is the goal of Hamas to wipe Israel off the Map. With settlement building continuing what's left of Palestine is literally being wiped off the Map. This has been ongoing long before Hamas came in to being. How can anyone expect that support for Hamas and their aims will disappear whilst this continues to happen? If the Palestinians were given any form of hope then possibly support for Hamas will dissipate?
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:37 - Nov 9 with 3131 viewseireblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:23 - Nov 9 by Darth_Koont

You haven’t said how you destroy Hamas.

The path to stopping violence in a conflict that is increasingly shaped by extremism is to pull back from violence and extremism not promote the next escalation as the solution. That’s the essence of the failure in Israel/Palestine from the start as well as the worsening situation.

While we seek peace via negotiation and FINALLY recognising the perspectives and rights of both the Israeli and the Palestinian civilians, Israel has proven it can protect its citizens better in the past and Hamas will be restricted to the “normality” of firing rockets and Israel will be restricted to the “normality” of corralling and blockading Gazans while encouraging the further displacement and ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from the West Bank.

To solve the current and the wider normalised situation, we need peace and negotiation anyway. And frankly that gives us the best way to marginalise and defeat the extremists on both sides and the cycle of violence they thrive on.


So your solution is

“Hamas, please can you restrict yourselves to firing ineffective rockets, ta.”

Just like the 2021 ceasefire, which ended in…..oh yea, Hamas declining to restrict themselves to ineffective violence.

I think your relaxing day having some tea and toast is about to get somewhat ruined, and captured for posterity.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:46 - Nov 9 with 3095 viewsRyorry

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:28 - Nov 9 by Blueschev

To play devils advocate here, Israeli actions are repeatedly justified on the premiss that it is the goal of Hamas to wipe Israel off the Map. With settlement building continuing what's left of Palestine is literally being wiped off the Map. This has been ongoing long before Hamas came in to being. How can anyone expect that support for Hamas and their aims will disappear whilst this continues to happen? If the Palestinians were given any form of hope then possibly support for Hamas will dissipate?


Believe me, if I were the Israeli PM with a cabinet entirely of my own choosing, I'd have ordered the dismantling of those illegal settlements the minute they were built; and passed new laws making it an imprisonable offence to build new ones!

Unfortunately, it's an inherent flaw of the political system in Israel that they have a PR voting system which allows a tiny minority of fundamentalist extremists to hold the balance of power in Govt.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:04 - Nov 9 with 3039 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:13 - Nov 9 by Ryorry

Numerous people have told you over several threads that stopping the killing, and just as importantly the *fear* of being killed (because of the fear factor which triggers both sides into pre-emptive violence themselves) has to come from BOTH sides.

One step is for Hamas to release the remaining hostages; a second would be to stop firing rockets into Israel; a third would be for their activists to step away from their own civilians who they're hiding behind, and another I'd have thought is for them to revoke their avowal to "wipe Israel off the map".

Israel might then relax from their state of extreme & permanent fear, and if Netanyahu & cabinet didn't consequently take their fingers off the triggers, they'd soon be told to in no uncertain terms by the international community.

There's no good reason whatsoever for Hamas not doing the any of the above other than bad faith.


Hamas are no more likely to do that than the Israeli government are going to respect the rights of millions of Palestinians and make their lives more secure.

Get real. We need to stop the violence not justify it because of the extremists on the other side.

This is a deeply unsafe time for both sets of civilians. Ceasefire now and let’s start the process of bringing the actual rights and lives of the civilians to the fore.

Pronouns: He/Him

2
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:10 - Nov 9 with 3022 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:37 - Nov 9 by eireblue

So your solution is

“Hamas, please can you restrict yourselves to firing ineffective rockets, ta.”

Just like the 2021 ceasefire, which ended in…..oh yea, Hamas declining to restrict themselves to ineffective violence.

I think your relaxing day having some tea and toast is about to get somewhat ruined, and captured for posterity.


A de-escalation to what has been seen as normal is better than the current escalation which pushes an end to unnecessary killing and kicks the eventual ceasefire and negotiation that is needed into the long grass.

I don’t buy your argument because I think your approach is much worse. It doesn’t just emphasize continued death and destruction at an unprecedented level but I don’t see a satisfactory endgame here. And that’s without the very real threat posed by it being the endgame of an extremist and racist Israeli regime.

Pronouns: He/Him

2
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:34 - Nov 9 with 2975 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:13 - Nov 9 by Ryorry

Numerous people have told you over several threads that stopping the killing, and just as importantly the *fear* of being killed (because of the fear factor which triggers both sides into pre-emptive violence themselves) has to come from BOTH sides.

One step is for Hamas to release the remaining hostages; a second would be to stop firing rockets into Israel; a third would be for their activists to step away from their own civilians who they're hiding behind, and another I'd have thought is for them to revoke their avowal to "wipe Israel off the map".

Israel might then relax from their state of extreme & permanent fear, and if Netanyahu & cabinet didn't consequently take their fingers off the triggers, they'd soon be told to in no uncertain terms by the international community.

There's no good reason whatsoever for Hamas not doing the any of the above other than bad faith.


Which is the work we have to do after a ceasefire. And taking the situation for civilians much more seriously than we have done in the past with what we’ve nodded through in the name of support for Israel.

We need to get real and get honest.

Against that bigger need for peace and responsibility to support millions of people on both sides, there is no justification nor rational or satisfactory end-result for killing children in even greater numbers now.

Stop the killing now!

Pronouns: He/Him

1
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:57 - Nov 9 with 2890 viewseireblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:10 - Nov 9 by Darth_Koont

A de-escalation to what has been seen as normal is better than the current escalation which pushes an end to unnecessary killing and kicks the eventual ceasefire and negotiation that is needed into the long grass.

I don’t buy your argument because I think your approach is much worse. It doesn’t just emphasize continued death and destruction at an unprecedented level but I don’t see a satisfactory endgame here. And that’s without the very real threat posed by it being the endgame of an extremist and racist Israeli regime.


Again, you state a strategy that has already failed, a number of times.

In Sri Lanka, as in Cambodia, and in Northern Ireland, when the terrorists and killers are beaten and know they can’t win, then progress happens.

Hamas on the 8th of October, just had their biggest victory.
At that point, you think they are going to say, look we done our thing, shared around the videos, okay, now we will give up our arms and ambitions, and have some peace talks.

Based on history, terrorists that tend to enjoy a bit of killing, tend to keep doing it, until they they are stopped.
This is not a bad thing, but I don’t think you quite get into the mindset of terrorists that really like armed conflict.

And another recent counter point, of not defeating terror groups, let’s take Afghanistan, when the terrorists and extremists weren’t defeated…..well…..how is that going for the women’s rights now?

So based on history, terrorists that tend to enjoy a bit of killing and oppression, tend to keep doing it, until they they are stopped.

You haven’t proposed stopping them, just essentially, letting them continue their killing when it is more convenient for them.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:05 - Nov 9 with 2862 viewsgiant_stow

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:57 - Nov 9 by eireblue

Again, you state a strategy that has already failed, a number of times.

In Sri Lanka, as in Cambodia, and in Northern Ireland, when the terrorists and killers are beaten and know they can’t win, then progress happens.

Hamas on the 8th of October, just had their biggest victory.
At that point, you think they are going to say, look we done our thing, shared around the videos, okay, now we will give up our arms and ambitions, and have some peace talks.

Based on history, terrorists that tend to enjoy a bit of killing, tend to keep doing it, until they they are stopped.
This is not a bad thing, but I don’t think you quite get into the mindset of terrorists that really like armed conflict.

And another recent counter point, of not defeating terror groups, let’s take Afghanistan, when the terrorists and extremists weren’t defeated…..well…..how is that going for the women’s rights now?

So based on history, terrorists that tend to enjoy a bit of killing and oppression, tend to keep doing it, until they they are stopped.

You haven’t proposed stopping them, just essentially, letting them continue their killing when it is more convenient for them.


I have to say, you put forward a powerful argument. My only problem with it is more Israeli bombing creates more future terrorists - the whole thing gets circular.

I wonder what this war would have looked like if Israel had chosen not to bomb, but fight only on the ground?

Presumably, lots more Israeli causalities in the army for a start, but would the pro-Palestinian movement have been any happier about it?

Has anyone ever looked at their own postings for last day or so? Oh my... so sorry. Was Ullaa
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:23 - Nov 9 with 2810 viewsSuperKieranMcKenna

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:05 - Nov 9 by giant_stow

I have to say, you put forward a powerful argument. My only problem with it is more Israeli bombing creates more future terrorists - the whole thing gets circular.

I wonder what this war would have looked like if Israel had chosen not to bomb, but fight only on the ground?

Presumably, lots more Israeli causalities in the army for a start, but would the pro-Palestinian movement have been any happier about it?


“ pro-Palestinian movement have been any happier about it?”

Nope some posters on here want to see Israel defenceless, as we’ve seen. They cannot for instance support the Iron Dome defence system without the US, they’d soon run out of missiles given the constant attacks even in more ‘peaceful times’.

It’s quite right the outrage over Israel’s callous bombing. I don’t know why we haven’t seen similar reactions to the ~300,000 civilians killed by the Assad regime and Russia in Syria, or those killed in Yemen by Saudi.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:48 - Nov 9 with 2742 viewsnoggin

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:23 - Nov 9 by SuperKieranMcKenna

“ pro-Palestinian movement have been any happier about it?”

Nope some posters on here want to see Israel defenceless, as we’ve seen. They cannot for instance support the Iron Dome defence system without the US, they’d soon run out of missiles given the constant attacks even in more ‘peaceful times’.

It’s quite right the outrage over Israel’s callous bombing. I don’t know why we haven’t seen similar reactions to the ~300,000 civilians killed by the Assad regime and Russia in Syria, or those killed in Yemen by Saudi.


" I don’t know why we haven’t seen similar reactions to the ~300,000 civilians killed by the Assad regime and Russia in Syria, or those killed in Yemen by Saudi."

Probably because there is no counter argument and nobody is defending Saudi or Russia. There has certainly been outrage.

Poll: Which team thread should I participate in?

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