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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? 19:54 - Nov 2 with 246656 viewsnoggin

Yeah but Owen Jones...
[Post edited 3 Nov 2023 9:05]

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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 08:09 - Nov 3 with 3259 viewsGlasgowBlue

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 07:56 - Nov 3 by Darth_Koont

There is no justification for the “complete annihilation” of Hamas. As that necessarily will mean the death of tens of thousands of innocent civilians. Maybe even wiping Gaza off the map completely.

Of course, Hamas must be stopped and marginalised but that means dialogue and negotiation. That, as we know only too well ourselves in Northern Ireland, is the way to destroy terrorism.


Completely disagree. Hamas are the same as IS and Al-Qaeda. They aren’t interested in negotiating a peaceful settlement for the Palestinian people. They are Jihadists whose aim is to wipe out all Jews and Christinas in the Middle East. Their charter literally says this.

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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 08:12 - Nov 3 with 3247 viewsRyorry

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 07:56 - Nov 3 by Darth_Koont

There is no justification for the “complete annihilation” of Hamas. As that necessarily will mean the death of tens of thousands of innocent civilians. Maybe even wiping Gaza off the map completely.

Of course, Hamas must be stopped and marginalised but that means dialogue and negotiation. That, as we know only too well ourselves in Northern Ireland, is the way to destroy terrorism.


The problem here is the “leaders”.

The majority of civilians on both sides don’t want theirs. The current “leaders” on both sides won’t talk or negotiate in a thousand years unless there’s a Nelson Mandela figure we don’t know about who’ll step forward.

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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 08:15 - Nov 3 with 3227 viewsBanksterDebtSlave

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 08:05 - Nov 3 by DJR

This paragraph, from the Guardian, indicates the US isn't putting any restraint on Israeli action.

"The US will not seek to impose any conditions on the support it gives Israel to defend itself in the wake of the Hamas attacks of 7 October, vice-president Kamala Harris said on Thursday. She refused to comment on Israel’s bombing of the Jabalia refugee camp, adding: “We are not telling Israel how it should conduct this war.”"

This is clearly the UK government and opposition line also, and will be so long as the US doesn't soften its stance.

All the US appears to be pursuing is a brief pause for humanitarian reasons. But they voted against this a couple of weeks ago, and I get the sense they have only changed their stance because of the diplomatic consequences in the Arab world of what is going on.

And where the US goes on pauses, so goes the main UK political parties.

Incidentally, this must be a unique conflict in the sense that people are trapped in such a small war zone and have nowhere to go. I can't think of any parallel because, for example, many people suffering in the Syrian war were able to escape the conflict if they wanted to.
[Post edited 3 Nov 2023 8:10]


The West have blood on their hands.

"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 08:16 - Nov 3 with 3215 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 08:05 - Nov 3 by DJR

This paragraph, from the Guardian, indicates the US isn't putting any restraint on Israeli action.

"The US will not seek to impose any conditions on the support it gives Israel to defend itself in the wake of the Hamas attacks of 7 October, vice-president Kamala Harris said on Thursday. She refused to comment on Israel’s bombing of the Jabalia refugee camp, adding: “We are not telling Israel how it should conduct this war.”"

This is clearly the UK government and opposition line also, and will be so long as the US doesn't soften its stance.

All the US appears to be pursuing is a brief pause for humanitarian reasons. But they voted against this a couple of weeks ago, and I get the sense they have only changed their stance because of the diplomatic consequences in the Arab world of what is going on.

And where the US goes on pauses, so goes the main UK political parties.

Incidentally, this must be a unique conflict in the sense that people are trapped in such a small war zone and have nowhere to go. I can't think of any parallel because, for example, many people suffering in the Syrian war were able to escape the conflict if they wanted to.
[Post edited 3 Nov 2023 8:10]


Words fail me. I’m disgusted by the lack of basic humanity and our complicity in what is unfolding as genocide and certainly war crimes.

This is EXACTLY when you tell Israel how to conduct its war.

Pronouns: He/Him

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How many Palestinians and Israelis must die before this stops? on 08:18 - Nov 3 with 3195 viewsWeWereZombies

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 08:12 - Nov 3 by Ryorry

The problem here is the “leaders”.

The majority of civilians on both sides don’t want theirs. The current “leaders” on both sides won’t talk or negotiate in a thousand years unless there’s a Nelson Mandela figure we don’t know about who’ll step forward.


I don't know whether this is uncalled for or not but I can't help pointing out that we need to learn lessons from history. There may well be a Palestinian Mandela but if so I expect the hard right in Israel have her locked up.
[Post edited 3 Nov 2023 20:46]

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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 08:19 - Nov 3 with 3197 viewsBanksterDebtSlave

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 08:09 - Nov 3 by GlasgowBlue

Completely disagree. Hamas are the same as IS and Al-Qaeda. They aren’t interested in negotiating a peaceful settlement for the Palestinian people. They are Jihadists whose aim is to wipe out all Jews and Christinas in the Middle East. Their charter literally says this.


And if this requires the flattening of Gaza City, the ongoing mass deaths of innocents(including the hostages), perhaps even pushing them all into Sinai and turning Gaza into a holiday resort (as proposed by some in the government) then it's a price worth paying?

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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 08:22 - Nov 3 with 3150 viewslowhouseblue

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 07:56 - Nov 3 by Darth_Koont

There is no justification for the “complete annihilation” of Hamas. As that necessarily will mean the death of tens of thousands of innocent civilians. Maybe even wiping Gaza off the map completely.

Of course, Hamas must be stopped and marginalised but that means dialogue and negotiation. That, as we know only too well ourselves in Northern Ireland, is the way to destroy terrorism.


"hamas must be stopped ... [by]negotiation." followed by a comparison to northern ireland. you're talking complete bobbins and ignoring the appalling reality of hamas. it's a simplistic, flippant and agenda driven response to the horrendous complexity of what is going on. a complete agenda driven cop out. just as when you characterise it as 'brown people' being oppressed by non-brown people your distortions and mischaracterisations are clearly for a reason.

And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show

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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 08:27 - Nov 3 with 3106 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 08:12 - Nov 3 by Ryorry

The problem here is the “leaders”.

The majority of civilians on both sides don’t want theirs. The current “leaders” on both sides won’t talk or negotiate in a thousand years unless there’s a Nelson Mandela figure we don’t know about who’ll step forward.


We could start by taking away our support and even sanctioning Israel. The US and UK’s practically uncritical support now and over the past couple of decades of increasing occupation and oppression has emboldened Netanyahu and the far-right forces in and around his government. They don’t need to talk.

Similarly by denying the Palestinians a voice over the same period they also can’t talk and extremists come to the fore as a result.

We in the West have made dialogue a practical impossibility with our stance. That needs to change — and we know it too from how other violent murderous conflicts between peoples have been resolved.

Pronouns: He/Him

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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 08:28 - Nov 3 with 3104 viewsBuhrer

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 08:12 - Nov 3 by Ryorry

The problem here is the “leaders”.

The majority of civilians on both sides don’t want theirs. The current “leaders” on both sides won’t talk or negotiate in a thousand years unless there’s a Nelson Mandela figure we don’t know about who’ll step forward.


"Never again" they say "lest we forget".... laying a wreath with their bloody hands, on the way to another meeting with arms manufacturers, always finding another warzone to use their latest weapons.
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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 08:29 - Nov 3 with 3096 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 08:22 - Nov 3 by lowhouseblue

"hamas must be stopped ... [by]negotiation." followed by a comparison to northern ireland. you're talking complete bobbins and ignoring the appalling reality of hamas. it's a simplistic, flippant and agenda driven response to the horrendous complexity of what is going on. a complete agenda driven cop out. just as when you characterise it as 'brown people' being oppressed by non-brown people your distortions and mischaracterisations are clearly for a reason.


Can you kindly feck off with your insinuations?

Thanks very much.

Pronouns: He/Him

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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 08:32 - Nov 3 with 3068 viewsredrickstuhaart

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 08:27 - Nov 3 by Darth_Koont

We could start by taking away our support and even sanctioning Israel. The US and UK’s practically uncritical support now and over the past couple of decades of increasing occupation and oppression has emboldened Netanyahu and the far-right forces in and around his government. They don’t need to talk.

Similarly by denying the Palestinians a voice over the same period they also can’t talk and extremists come to the fore as a result.

We in the West have made dialogue a practical impossibility with our stance. That needs to change — and we know it too from how other violent murderous conflicts between peoples have been resolved.


There are undoubtedly implacable lunatics in and around Hamas.

Just how much power and unfluence would they have in 10 years time if the population around them had no reason for fear and grievance? How easy is it to recruit people with nothing to lose, faced with a large powerful neighbour determined to take over their modest land, bulldozing their homes etc.

On the other hand, how easy will it be to recruit new warriors and martyrs from a populace displaced, made orphans and widows, who have had their homes and lives (such as they were) completely destroyed?
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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 08:33 - Nov 3 with 3065 viewsblueasfook

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 07:56 - Nov 3 by Darth_Koont

There is no justification for the “complete annihilation” of Hamas. As that necessarily will mean the death of tens of thousands of innocent civilians. Maybe even wiping Gaza off the map completely.

Of course, Hamas must be stopped and marginalised but that means dialogue and negotiation. That, as we know only too well ourselves in Northern Ireland, is the way to destroy terrorism.


"There is no justification for the complete annihilation of Hamas"

Did I really just read that?!

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How many Palestinian and Israeli lives must be lost ? on 08:33 - Nov 3 with 3043 viewsWeWereZombies

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 08:03 - Nov 3 by Ryorry

If Hamas truly wanted some progress on the whole ghastly situation instead of avowing to “wipe Israel off the face of the earth”, they could release the hostages. Why don’t they do that?


I'm answering your posts out of chronological order here, sorry. Hamas took hostages as bargaining chips to try and get their jailed members released. So their argument would be for a joint hostage release as part of a ceasefire I guess. Very little chance of Netanyahu's administration doing that of course, and Hamas have, in my opinion, only been very slowly releasing hostages to get International attention that might slow the Israeli advance.

Which brings me to the report on the BBC Radio Four ten o'clock news a few nights ago about a middle aged Jewish lady shaking the hand of the Hamas operative just before she was released. Why would someone do that ? Perhaps the people caught up in this tragic cat and mouse game realise they are mere pawns in a bigger strategic battle played between the men who want power in Israel and Palestine (who are in turn pawns of the super powers who will wage a proxy war if they think it advances their Global influence.)
[Post edited 3 Nov 2023 20:48]

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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 08:35 - Nov 3 with 3041 viewslowhouseblue

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 08:29 - Nov 3 by Darth_Koont

Can you kindly feck off with your insinuations?

Thanks very much.


i'm just understandably suspicious when you put forward solutions - negotiations with hamas just like in northern ireland - which even you must know to be nonsense. such faux naivety seems to have the only purpose of isolating israel.

And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show

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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 08:36 - Nov 3 with 3033 viewspositivity

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 23:11 - Nov 2 by redrickstuhaart

It is far too easy to start saying its not about the religions involved.

They are fundamental.


it's going against judaistic teachings, it's tribalism

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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 08:39 - Nov 3 with 3009 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 08:32 - Nov 3 by redrickstuhaart

There are undoubtedly implacable lunatics in and around Hamas.

Just how much power and unfluence would they have in 10 years time if the population around them had no reason for fear and grievance? How easy is it to recruit people with nothing to lose, faced with a large powerful neighbour determined to take over their modest land, bulldozing their homes etc.

On the other hand, how easy will it be to recruit new warriors and martyrs from a populace displaced, made orphans and widows, who have had their homes and lives (such as they were) completely destroyed?


Indeed.

There’s an Orwellian 1984 symbiotic relationship between the ethno-religious extremists on both sides. They feed off each other and the fearful violent reality they’ve created for their civilian populations.

And insanely unhelpful for us to be supporting one side to the hilt. Makes me think that we have a deep-seated need for an enemy too.

Pronouns: He/Him

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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 08:40 - Nov 3 with 2998 viewsBanksterDebtSlave

Back on track...
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/31/un-official-resigns-israel-hamas-w
The director of the New York office of the UN high commissioner for human rights has left his post, protesting that the UN is “failing” in its duty to prevent what he categorizes as genocide of Palestinian civilians in Gaza under Israeli bombardment and citing the US, UK and much of Europe as “wholly complicit in the horrific assault”.




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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 08:42 - Nov 3 with 3267 viewsDJR

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 08:32 - Nov 3 by redrickstuhaart

There are undoubtedly implacable lunatics in and around Hamas.

Just how much power and unfluence would they have in 10 years time if the population around them had no reason for fear and grievance? How easy is it to recruit people with nothing to lose, faced with a large powerful neighbour determined to take over their modest land, bulldozing their homes etc.

On the other hand, how easy will it be to recruit new warriors and martyrs from a populace displaced, made orphans and widows, who have had their homes and lives (such as they were) completely destroyed?


I was listening to the World Service earlier this morning and they were interviewing someone who had carried out polling in Gaza in the period immediately preceding 7 October.

That polling suggested Hamas had the support of only around one-third of the population, but the person said that their support was greatly boosted in times of conflict.
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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 08:42 - Nov 3 with 3259 viewsitfcjoe

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 08:05 - Nov 3 by DJR

This paragraph, from the Guardian, indicates the US isn't putting any restraint on Israeli action.

"The US will not seek to impose any conditions on the support it gives Israel to defend itself in the wake of the Hamas attacks of 7 October, vice-president Kamala Harris said on Thursday. She refused to comment on Israel’s bombing of the Jabalia refugee camp, adding: “We are not telling Israel how it should conduct this war.”"

This is clearly the UK government and opposition line also, and will be so long as the US doesn't soften its stance.

All the US appears to be pursuing is a brief pause for humanitarian reasons. But they voted against this a couple of weeks ago, and I get the sense they have only changed their stance because of the diplomatic consequences in the Arab world of what is going on.

And where the US goes on pauses, so goes the main UK political parties.

Incidentally, this must be a unique conflict in the sense that people are trapped in such a small war zone and have nowhere to go. I can't think of any parallel because, for example, many people suffering in the Syrian war were able to escape the conflict if they wanted to.
[Post edited 3 Nov 2023 8:10]


I personally don't understand why such a big deal is made about the UK Govt position, and especially the UK Opposition position in this matter though - I don't want to use the term 'virtue signalling' because it's not the right one but it's early and brain hasn't woken up yet - but if the Govt, or opposition, or both, come out today and say we demand a ceasefire then absolutely nothing material changes.

Our position is going to be dictated by the only supposed Western nation in the Middle East, and of the USA who are the world boss in reality with a view on future relationships.

What changes positively for the UK if we demand a ceasefire? I'd say nothing

What changes for Israelis, Palestinians, the IDF, Hamas if we demand a ceasefire? I'd say nothing either

It's just pontificating from the sidelines, and there was a ceasefire in place, but Hamas decided to go in and brutally murder civillians. A ceasefire can't or won't happen currently, because all a ceasefire means is Israel just backing down and going back to how it was with potential for another Hamas attack

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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 08:44 - Nov 3 with 3253 viewsDJR

Can there have been another conflict where women and children have been so disproportionately affected?

https://www.unicef.org/press-releases/statement-unicef-deaths-and-injuries-child
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How many Israeli and Palestinian lives are sufficient ? on 08:45 - Nov 3 with 3223 viewsWeWereZombies

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 08:22 - Nov 3 by lowhouseblue

"hamas must be stopped ... [by]negotiation." followed by a comparison to northern ireland. you're talking complete bobbins and ignoring the appalling reality of hamas. it's a simplistic, flippant and agenda driven response to the horrendous complexity of what is going on. a complete agenda driven cop out. just as when you characterise it as 'brown people' being oppressed by non-brown people your distortions and mischaracterisations are clearly for a reason.


Terrorists all over the World often use similar tactics. The murder men of the Provisional IRA and the UVF carried out summary executions, often just on the grounds of religious affiliation irrespective of the involvement or non-involvement of the victim in politics. Agreed that the reality of Israel and Palestine is even worse in terms of the numbers of deaths and the extremity of action undertaken, although Rwanda and the former Yugoslavia probably both come close in recent times. Unless the ordinary people of Gaza have a credible alternative power to Hamas to cling (or something that negates their fear of Hamas) then the only possible end to hostilities is by negotiation. Or an unprecedented change in Israeli administration that delivers some semblance of full human rights ad self determination to its Arab citizens and Palestinian neighbours.
[Post edited 3 Nov 2023 20:54]

Poll: How will we get fourteen points from the last five games ?

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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 08:46 - Nov 3 with 3211 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 08:33 - Nov 3 by blueasfook

"There is no justification for the complete annihilation of Hamas"

Did I really just read that?!


1 out of 10.

One of the worst attempts at strawmanning I’ve ever seen on here — and that’s saying a lot!

Pronouns: He/Him

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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 08:49 - Nov 3 with 3170 viewspositivity

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 08:44 - Nov 3 by DJR

Can there have been another conflict where women and children have been so disproportionately affected?

https://www.unicef.org/press-releases/statement-unicef-deaths-and-injuries-child


possibly not, some groups do disproportionately target women and children for kidnapping (boko haram in nigeria for instance), but not usually in killing

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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 08:51 - Nov 3 with 3149 viewsDJR

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 08:49 - Nov 3 by positivity

possibly not, some groups do disproportionately target women and children for kidnapping (boko haram in nigeria for instance), but not usually in killing


That's a fair point.
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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 08:53 - Nov 3 with 3123 viewslowhouseblue

How many Israeli and Palestinian lives are sufficient ? on 08:45 - Nov 3 by WeWereZombies

Terrorists all over the World often use similar tactics. The murder men of the Provisional IRA and the UVF carried out summary executions, often just on the grounds of religious affiliation irrespective of the involvement or non-involvement of the victim in politics. Agreed that the reality of Israel and Palestine is even worse in terms of the numbers of deaths and the extremity of action undertaken, although Rwanda and the former Yugoslavia probably both come close in recent times. Unless the ordinary people of Gaza have a credible alternative power to Hamas to cling (or something that negates their fear of Hamas) then the only possible end to hostilities is by negotiation. Or an unprecedented change in Israeli administration that delivers some semblance of full human rights ad self determination to its Arab citizens and Palestinian neighbours.
[Post edited 3 Nov 2023 20:54]


the ira didn't seek as a fundamental purpose the complete annihilation of the rest of the uk or the death of its population on religious grounds. they weren't funded and equipped by a foreign power with similar objectives. they didn't use the population of the region as a human shield or hundreds of hostages for the same purpose. the ira were terrorists and their bombing campaign was horrendous but any analogy between the ira and hamas is entirely false and a distortion.

And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show

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