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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? 19:54 - Nov 2 with 257200 viewsnoggin

Yeah but Owen Jones...
[Post edited 3 Nov 2023 9:05]

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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 09:03 - Nov 3 with 3435 viewsDJR

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 08:42 - Nov 3 by itfcjoe

I personally don't understand why such a big deal is made about the UK Govt position, and especially the UK Opposition position in this matter though - I don't want to use the term 'virtue signalling' because it's not the right one but it's early and brain hasn't woken up yet - but if the Govt, or opposition, or both, come out today and say we demand a ceasefire then absolutely nothing material changes.

Our position is going to be dictated by the only supposed Western nation in the Middle East, and of the USA who are the world boss in reality with a view on future relationships.

What changes positively for the UK if we demand a ceasefire? I'd say nothing

What changes for Israelis, Palestinians, the IDF, Hamas if we demand a ceasefire? I'd say nothing either

It's just pontificating from the sidelines, and there was a ceasefire in place, but Hamas decided to go in and brutally murder civillians. A ceasefire can't or won't happen currently, because all a ceasefire means is Israel just backing down and going back to how it was with potential for another Hamas attack


I suppose my main concern isn't really the current conflict but the fact that blindly following the stance of the US, as we have done for some time, has got us into disasters like Afghanistan and the Iraq war. So who knows what disasters lie ahead if our critical faculties are on hold?
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How many Israeli and Palestinian lives is sufficient ? on 09:07 - Nov 3 with 3408 viewsWeWereZombies

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 08:53 - Nov 3 by lowhouseblue

the ira didn't seek as a fundamental purpose the complete annihilation of the rest of the uk or the death of its population on religious grounds. they weren't funded and equipped by a foreign power with similar objectives. they didn't use the population of the region as a human shield or hundreds of hostages for the same purpose. the ira were terrorists and their bombing campaign was horrendous but any analogy between the ira and hamas is entirely false and a distortion.


It doesn't map completely but the Provisional IRA got plenty of funding from the United States community of Irish emigrants (recent and centuries old) plus materiel from Czechoslovakia and Algeria. The UVF had a lower profile as far as 'money in' goes but I think fundamental Protestant organisations in Germany (and no doubt further afield were involved.) And, as a London Irish friend startlingly said to me when playing Devil's Advocate about the rights of Russians living in Ukraine 'English, Scots, they're all the same, we want the British out of Ireland'. The history is different, a modern state did not have to be carved out for either Great Britain or the island of Ireland but, for the victims, the effects of terrorism (and Shock and Awe for that matter) are starkly similar.
[Post edited 3 Nov 2023 20:39]

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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 09:13 - Nov 3 with 3381 viewsitfcjoe

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 09:03 - Nov 3 by DJR

I suppose my main concern isn't really the current conflict but the fact that blindly following the stance of the US, as we have done for some time, has got us into disasters like Afghanistan and the Iraq war. So who knows what disasters lie ahead if our critical faculties are on hold?


But in those post-Brexit world what is the alternative? We have no European nations as allies any more, the commonwealth is no more, we struggle to even keep the 4 nations together!

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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 09:13 - Nov 3 with 3372 viewslowhouseblue

How many Israeli and Palestinian lives is sufficient ? on 09:07 - Nov 3 by WeWereZombies

It doesn't map completely but the Provisional IRA got plenty of funding from the United States community of Irish emigrants (recent and centuries old) plus materiel from Czechoslovakia and Algeria. The UVF had a lower profile as far as 'money in' goes but I think fundamental Protestant organisations in Germany (and no doubt further afield were involved.) And, as a London Irish friend startlingly said to me when playing Devil's Advocate about the rights of Russians living in Ukraine 'English, Scots, they're all the same, we want the British out of Ireland'. The history is different, a modern state did not have to be carved out for either Great Britain or the island of Ireland but, for the victims, the effects of terrorism (and Shock and Awe for that matter) are starkly similar.
[Post edited 3 Nov 2023 20:39]


i would agree with you that the effects of terrorism for the victim are the same, but all the rest is an astonishing stretch.

And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show

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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 09:14 - Nov 3 with 3363 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 08:53 - Nov 3 by lowhouseblue

the ira didn't seek as a fundamental purpose the complete annihilation of the rest of the uk or the death of its population on religious grounds. they weren't funded and equipped by a foreign power with similar objectives. they didn't use the population of the region as a human shield or hundreds of hostages for the same purpose. the ira were terrorists and their bombing campaign was horrendous but any analogy between the ira and hamas is entirely false and a distortion.


As insanely and violently fundamentalist as Hamas are, they have little to no ability to completely annihilate Israel. But the insanely violent fundamentalists running Israel have the capacity even without their nuclear weapons to completely annihilate Gaza — as we’re seeing.

Of course, the specifics of Northern Ireland or any other conflict that sets a race, religion or ideology against another are different. But the essential truth remains that these conflicts are rarely resolved through violence rather they are perpetuated. And that ceasefires, dialogue and some form of recognition and reconciliation do work even when people say there is zero chance.

Escalating this conflict to “resolve the problem” rather than de-escalating it is a particularly bone-headed and self-defeating approach.

Pronouns: He/Him

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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 09:16 - Nov 3 with 3340 viewsDJR

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 09:13 - Nov 3 by itfcjoe

But in those post-Brexit world what is the alternative? We have no European nations as allies any more, the commonwealth is no more, we struggle to even keep the 4 nations together!


Interestingly, the EU, with Ireland the only possible exception, has taken the same line as us.
[Post edited 3 Nov 2023 9:17]
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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 09:19 - Nov 3 with 3322 viewsnoggin

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 09:14 - Nov 3 by Darth_Koont

As insanely and violently fundamentalist as Hamas are, they have little to no ability to completely annihilate Israel. But the insanely violent fundamentalists running Israel have the capacity even without their nuclear weapons to completely annihilate Gaza — as we’re seeing.

Of course, the specifics of Northern Ireland or any other conflict that sets a race, religion or ideology against another are different. But the essential truth remains that these conflicts are rarely resolved through violence rather they are perpetuated. And that ceasefires, dialogue and some form of recognition and reconciliation do work even when people say there is zero chance.

Escalating this conflict to “resolve the problem” rather than de-escalating it is a particularly bone-headed and self-defeating approach.


Indeed. A good start might be for Israel to bulldoze all the illegal settlements in the West Bank and rebuild the homes and farms that were there before.

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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 09:23 - Nov 3 with 3295 viewsSuperKieranMcKenna

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 09:16 - Nov 3 by DJR

Interestingly, the EU, with Ireland the only possible exception, has taken the same line as us.
[Post edited 3 Nov 2023 9:17]


The EU’s official stance has at least been more balanced than that of the US or UK, and highlighted the breaches of international law-:


“ The cutting off of water and electricity supplies and the pressure on civilians to leave their homes is against international law.”

“ Hamas shouldn’t be confused with the Palestinian people and the civilian population of Gaza cannot be held collectively responsible for its criminal actions.”
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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 09:26 - Nov 3 with 3274 viewslowhouseblue

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 09:14 - Nov 3 by Darth_Koont

As insanely and violently fundamentalist as Hamas are, they have little to no ability to completely annihilate Israel. But the insanely violent fundamentalists running Israel have the capacity even without their nuclear weapons to completely annihilate Gaza — as we’re seeing.

Of course, the specifics of Northern Ireland or any other conflict that sets a race, religion or ideology against another are different. But the essential truth remains that these conflicts are rarely resolved through violence rather they are perpetuated. And that ceasefires, dialogue and some form of recognition and reconciliation do work even when people say there is zero chance.

Escalating this conflict to “resolve the problem” rather than de-escalating it is a particularly bone-headed and self-defeating approach.


comparisons with northern ireland are a complete distortion. i'm sure that negotiation will play the central role in reaching a longer term answer - but it will be negotiation with other parties in the region to isolate hamas and to end the iranian use of them as a proxy. but it is very hard to see a realistic route for that to happen at present. of course israeli enabling a 2 state solution must be part of that process - and other parties will need to pressure israel to go further than it may want. but simply to say that the solution today from where we are at present is negotiations with hamas is intentionally naive and offers nothing more than entirely illusionary moral high ground. it's not going to happen, short of the release of the hostages and the disarmament of hamas there is no basis for it begin, and claiming it as a current possibility is simply used to isolate israel. i don't feel anything much short of despair at the moment - but pretending there is a negotiated solution available is nonsense.
[Post edited 3 Nov 2023 9:26]

And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show

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How many Palestinian and Israelis must die before this stops ? on 09:28 - Nov 3 with 3241 viewsWeWereZombies

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 09:13 - Nov 3 by lowhouseblue

i would agree with you that the effects of terrorism for the victim are the same, but all the rest is an astonishing stretch.


Sorry but 'an astonishing stretch' is not going to wash with me. May I ask you to, as I have done, try and pull together what experience you have of people who have lived in Ireland and the Near East (apologies if you have actually lived in either), imagine what it is like to be amongst people who could violently turn upon you in the wrong conditions, to consider the reports we are getting not just prima facie but from the indications they provide of conditions on the ground (because unlike Vietnam we cannot see inside the battlezone at the moment.) I mentioned Rwanda and the former Yugoslavia in another thread and I would urge you to consider these conflicts also to enable some empathy for the realpolitik that all agents in this tragic situation are practising.
[Post edited 3 Nov 2023 20:41]

Poll: How will we get fourteen points from the last five games ?

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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 09:28 - Nov 3 with 3238 viewsBanksterDebtSlave

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 09:14 - Nov 3 by Darth_Koont

As insanely and violently fundamentalist as Hamas are, they have little to no ability to completely annihilate Israel. But the insanely violent fundamentalists running Israel have the capacity even without their nuclear weapons to completely annihilate Gaza — as we’re seeing.

Of course, the specifics of Northern Ireland or any other conflict that sets a race, religion or ideology against another are different. But the essential truth remains that these conflicts are rarely resolved through violence rather they are perpetuated. And that ceasefires, dialogue and some form of recognition and reconciliation do work even when people say there is zero chance.

Escalating this conflict to “resolve the problem” rather than de-escalating it is a particularly bone-headed and self-defeating approach.


"As insanely and violently fundamentalist as Hamas are, they have little to no ability to completely annihilate Israel. But the insanely violent fundamentalists running Israel have the capacity even without their nuclear weapons to completely annihilate Gaza — as we’re seeing."

When you see the Israeli military videos showing the arsenal of weapons used against them and then look at what it us lined up against it can feel like being part of some mass psychosis.

[Post edited 3 Nov 2023 9:40]

"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 09:29 - Nov 3 with 3222 viewseireblue

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 09:14 - Nov 3 by Darth_Koont

As insanely and violently fundamentalist as Hamas are, they have little to no ability to completely annihilate Israel. But the insanely violent fundamentalists running Israel have the capacity even without their nuclear weapons to completely annihilate Gaza — as we’re seeing.

Of course, the specifics of Northern Ireland or any other conflict that sets a race, religion or ideology against another are different. But the essential truth remains that these conflicts are rarely resolved through violence rather they are perpetuated. And that ceasefires, dialogue and some form of recognition and reconciliation do work even when people say there is zero chance.

Escalating this conflict to “resolve the problem” rather than de-escalating it is a particularly bone-headed and self-defeating approach.


So, on 7th October, Hamas did what they wanted to do, and possibly more.

They were in a stronger position, than they were on the 6th of October

On the 8th of October, what would you do to stop Hamas executing another attack, in the future.
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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 09:30 - Nov 3 with 3195 viewsRyorry

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 08:32 - Nov 3 by redrickstuhaart

There are undoubtedly implacable lunatics in and around Hamas.

Just how much power and unfluence would they have in 10 years time if the population around them had no reason for fear and grievance? How easy is it to recruit people with nothing to lose, faced with a large powerful neighbour determined to take over their modest land, bulldozing their homes etc.

On the other hand, how easy will it be to recruit new warriors and martyrs from a populace displaced, made orphans and widows, who have had their homes and lives (such as they were) completely destroyed?


" a large powerful neighbour" - which since its inception has been surrounded by neighbours waging war on it, firing rockets into it & not retracting their avowed intention to "wipe it (Israel) off the face of the earth".

I feel there's too much of a simplistic take on this by many people out there who don't understand the history of the situation (not you) of "supporting the (supposed) underdog".

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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 09:31 - Nov 3 with 3188 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 09:19 - Nov 3 by noggin

Indeed. A good start might be for Israel to bulldoze all the illegal settlements in the West Bank and rebuild the homes and farms that were there before.


That would require Israel and the governments who support them recognising the illegality and immorality of the apartheid that’s been enacted on the West Bank population.

That would require Israel and the governments who support them recognising that Palestinian civilians have an underlying just cause and human rights that have been criminally ignored.

But it’s better to look after self-interests and hold Palestinians collectively responsible even though that contravenes their human rights and is a war crime during a conflict.

Pronouns: He/Him

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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 09:31 - Nov 3 with 3184 viewsBlueschev

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 22:50 - Nov 2 by positivity

isn't a zionist just someone who believes that the jewish people should have a state?

this is far beyond zionism


Zionism is a far more complex and multifaceted ideology than that. If it was that simple it would no longer exist, as there is a Jewish state.
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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 09:33 - Nov 3 with 3162 viewslowhouseblue

How many Palestinian and Israelis must die before this stops ? on 09:28 - Nov 3 by WeWereZombies

Sorry but 'an astonishing stretch' is not going to wash with me. May I ask you to, as I have done, try and pull together what experience you have of people who have lived in Ireland and the Near East (apologies if you have actually lived in either), imagine what it is like to be amongst people who could violently turn upon you in the wrong conditions, to consider the reports we are getting not just prima facie but from the indications they provide of conditions on the ground (because unlike Vietnam we cannot see inside the battlezone at the moment.) I mentioned Rwanda and the former Yugoslavia in another thread and I would urge you to consider these conflicts also to enable some empathy for the realpolitik that all agents in this tragic situation are practising.
[Post edited 3 Nov 2023 20:41]


the terrorism in northern ireland was appalling and the northern irish population suffered hugely. i wouldn't understate the awfulness of the 'troubles' in any way. but as a response to my post which said: "the ira didn't seek as a fundamental purpose the complete annihilation of the rest of the uk or the death of its population on religious grounds. they weren't funded and equipped by a foreign power with similar objectives. they didn't use the population of the region as a human shield or hundreds of hostages for the same purpose." your reply was indeed an astonishing stretch. terrorism in northern ireland, however awful it undoubtedly was, didn't include any of the things i listed.

And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show

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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 09:35 - Nov 3 with 3130 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 09:31 - Nov 3 by Blueschev

Zionism is a far more complex and multifaceted ideology than that. If it was that simple it would no longer exist, as there is a Jewish state.


Indeed. The zionism of many settlers in the occupied territories and the hawks and extremistsin the Israeli government is way off the scale. Their ultrazionism is nothing short of a racist ideology.

Pronouns: He/Him

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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 09:37 - Nov 3 with 3119 viewsBanksterDebtSlave

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 09:29 - Nov 3 by eireblue

So, on 7th October, Hamas did what they wanted to do, and possibly more.

They were in a stronger position, than they were on the 6th of October

On the 8th of October, what would you do to stop Hamas executing another attack, in the future.


Maybe build a big feck off fence but then use actual people to keep an eye on it.

"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
Poll: If the choice is Moore or no more.

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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 09:38 - Nov 3 with 3113 viewsRyorry

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 09:28 - Nov 3 by BanksterDebtSlave

"As insanely and violently fundamentalist as Hamas are, they have little to no ability to completely annihilate Israel. But the insanely violent fundamentalists running Israel have the capacity even without their nuclear weapons to completely annihilate Gaza — as we’re seeing."

When you see the Israeli military videos showing the arsenal of weapons used against them and then look at what it us lined up against it can feel like being part of some mass psychosis.

[Post edited 3 Nov 2023 9:40]


Look at a map & topography.

Israel is about 20 miles (I think, happy to be corrected) wide at its narrowest point.

It's not all about weapons, hardware, and capability.

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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 09:40 - Nov 3 with 3095 viewsBlueschev

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 09:38 - Nov 3 by Ryorry

Look at a map & topography.

Israel is about 20 miles (I think, happy to be corrected) wide at its narrowest point.

It's not all about weapons, hardware, and capability.


I think at one point between the West Bank and the Med it's about 10 miles, which is a huge stumbling block to a two state solution.
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How many Israelis and Palestinians must die before this stops ? on 09:41 - Nov 3 with 3090 viewsWeWereZombies

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 09:33 - Nov 3 by lowhouseblue

the terrorism in northern ireland was appalling and the northern irish population suffered hugely. i wouldn't understate the awfulness of the 'troubles' in any way. but as a response to my post which said: "the ira didn't seek as a fundamental purpose the complete annihilation of the rest of the uk or the death of its population on religious grounds. they weren't funded and equipped by a foreign power with similar objectives. they didn't use the population of the region as a human shield or hundreds of hostages for the same purpose." your reply was indeed an astonishing stretch. terrorism in northern ireland, however awful it undoubtedly was, didn't include any of the things i listed.


I think you doubling down on a dismissive phrase is unfortunate and does little to increase our understanding of this conflict or particularly help in appreciating the differences. The gruesome hype that Israel's enemies have propagated for decades now about wiping that state off the map, and which is now being echoed by the right wing in Israel in terms of not only wiping Hamas out (it will only be replaced by a Palestinian Jihadi group) and even completely depopulating and destroying Gaza, is, hopefully, a political slogan and not, in the minds of senior politicians and other influential figures, a realistic aim. At some point people have to stop fighting and start talking. In my opinion, the sooner, the better.
[Post edited 3 Nov 2023 20:43]

Poll: How will we get fourteen points from the last five games ?

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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 09:43 - Nov 3 with 3072 viewsBanksterDebtSlave

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 09:38 - Nov 3 by Ryorry

Look at a map & topography.

Israel is about 20 miles (I think, happy to be corrected) wide at its narrowest point.

It's not all about weapons, hardware, and capability.


But we are talking about Hamas anhialating Israel.

"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
Poll: If the choice is Moore or no more.

0
How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 09:44 - Nov 3 with 3068 viewslowhouseblue

How many Israelis and Palestinians must die before this stops ? on 09:41 - Nov 3 by WeWereZombies

I think you doubling down on a dismissive phrase is unfortunate and does little to increase our understanding of this conflict or particularly help in appreciating the differences. The gruesome hype that Israel's enemies have propagated for decades now about wiping that state off the map, and which is now being echoed by the right wing in Israel in terms of not only wiping Hamas out (it will only be replaced by a Palestinian Jihadi group) and even completely depopulating and destroying Gaza, is, hopefully, a political slogan and not, in the minds of senior politicians and other influential figures, a realistic aim. At some point people have to stop fighting and start talking. In my opinion, the sooner, the better.
[Post edited 3 Nov 2023 20:43]


i think 7th october makes it more than just 'hype'.

And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show

0
How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 09:44 - Nov 3 with 3065 viewseireblue

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 09:37 - Nov 3 by BanksterDebtSlave

Maybe build a big feck off fence but then use actual people to keep an eye on it.


So carry on as before on the failed path, but further isolate the Palestinians with bigger walls and barriers, and leave them to be control by a stronger Hamas, nice one.

Any other good ideas?
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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 09:47 - Nov 3 with 3040 viewsZapers

How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 07:56 - Nov 3 by Darth_Koont

There is no justification for the “complete annihilation” of Hamas. As that necessarily will mean the death of tens of thousands of innocent civilians. Maybe even wiping Gaza off the map completely.

Of course, Hamas must be stopped and marginalised but that means dialogue and negotiation. That, as we know only too well ourselves in Northern Ireland, is the way to destroy terrorism.


It's hardly Israel's fault that Hamas use their citizens as human shields.

Maybe a little more condemnation of Hamas might not go amiss.
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