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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? 19:54 - Nov 2 with 322369 viewsnoggin

Yeah but Owen Jones...
[Post edited 3 Nov 2023 9:05]

Poll: If KM goes now, will you applaud him when he returns with his new club?

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:25 - Nov 28 with 2813 viewseireblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:49 - Nov 28 by Darth_Koont

Yes, let’s debate this as if it’s a fantasy world where we can remove all real-world context or consequences ...

I don’t support Hamas or the horrific violence but “resolving” it with violence and the inevitable humanitarian catastrophe is particularly boneheaded and counter-productive. Terrorism is destroyed by justice, dialogue and marginalising those extremist voices who only have violence as a solution.

How did Israel and the world resolve the situation with the PLO terrorists?


So real world.

Give us a couple of examples of when a terrorist organisation decided to give up, without being several impacted by military action.

Give us an an example of a force of about 20,000 soldiers, after their biggest victory, giving up and laying down arms.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:30 - Nov 28 with 2794 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:25 - Nov 28 by eireblue

So real world.

Give us a couple of examples of when a terrorist organisation decided to give up, without being several impacted by military action.

Give us an an example of a force of about 20,000 soldiers, after their biggest victory, giving up and laying down arms.


The ANC gave up terrorism when a political path opened up. Ditto the IRA.

Now your turn. When has violence been stopped and an unjust situation resolved by collectively punishing a civilian population?

Pronouns: He/Him

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:32 - Nov 28 with 2788 viewsnoggin

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:25 - Nov 28 by eireblue

So real world.

Give us a couple of examples of when a terrorist organisation decided to give up, without being several impacted by military action.

Give us an an example of a force of about 20,000 soldiers, after their biggest victory, giving up and laying down arms.


Alternatively, do you honestly think Israel's capaign, which has murdered thousands of Palestinians and destroyefd the lives of pretty much the population of Gaza, will stop the violence? If not, what's the aim?

Poll: If KM goes now, will you applaud him when he returns with his new club?

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:50 - Nov 28 with 2725 viewsStokieBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:43 - Nov 28 by GlasgowBlue

That's great. But do you think Hamas should be allowed to exist following the 7 October massacres? Or do you think they need to be destroyed?

Take aside the measures the Israeli government is taking to do this.


You can't just ignore the actions the Israeli government is taking to achieve that goal though.

You're entirely right to call the awful events of the 7th October a massacre.

What terminology would you use for killing of ~14,000 civilians, many of them children and the systematic and forceful relocation of many more from their homes?

SB
[Post edited 28 Nov 2023 13:51]

Avatar - M51 - The Whirlpool Galaxy - Taken on 29th April 2024

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:56 - Nov 28 with 2694 viewseireblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:30 - Nov 28 by Darth_Koont

The ANC gave up terrorism when a political path opened up. Ditto the IRA.

Now your turn. When has violence been stopped and an unjust situation resolved by collectively punishing a civilian population?


Yes, the ANC initiated talks.

I am sorry, I missed the press release. On 8th October did Hamas offer to stop fighting, or suggest they were going to continue?

So that’s not equivalent.

The IRA were military brought to an impasse. Before negotiations had begun. The IRA realised they wouldn’t win.

Sri Lanka, I mentioned it before.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:12 - Nov 28 with 2663 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:56 - Nov 28 by eireblue

Yes, the ANC initiated talks.

I am sorry, I missed the press release. On 8th October did Hamas offer to stop fighting, or suggest they were going to continue?

So that’s not equivalent.

The IRA were military brought to an impasse. Before negotiations had begun. The IRA realised they wouldn’t win.

Sri Lanka, I mentioned it before.


I don’t buy your solution nor the need to present it as the solution that makes most sense for peace. Or that we can’t learn from other previously intractable and violent conflicts between peoples elsewhere.

Does anyone Palestinian or who supports the Palestinian people think that this is the solution? If it’s the best path towards peace then there should be.

Pronouns: He/Him

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:17 - Nov 28 with 2646 viewsDJR

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:20 - Nov 28 by Darth_Koont

You’d like to think that the temporary ceasefire and release of hostages and prisoners will counter the absolutism of the extremist violence on both sides. Given it clearly shows other options are available and preferable when both sides can negotiate and take steps to de-escalate and protect civilian lives.

It also shows the importance of the international community in mediating and bringing the sides together. And the danger of those voices who are keen to push one side over the other and maintain divisions.

I want to see much, much better going forward from our own political leaders.


Yes, the consequences of a resumption of hostilities doesn't bear thinking about.

As it is, the following is worth reading, and I have set out some snippets from it below that don't spring to mind.

https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-flash-update-5

Mine risk education remains a top priority right now in protection for people in Gaza.

A registration tool for unaccompanied and separated children is ongoing.

Providing crucial support for women and girls involves addressing the depletion of local hygiene supplies, particularly dignity and menstrual hygiene kits. Despite efforts to procure these supplies, the demand exceeds the available resources, necessitating increased supplies, improved access, and additional funding. Ensuring the safety of women in shelters is paramount, prompting the GBV sub-cluster to develop an observation tool. A team of volunteers will collect observations in nearby sites, contributing valuable information on gender-related issues and needs. Challenges include reaching GBV partners, comprehensive mapping of services, and the significant impact on GBV services. Out of over 20 partners, only nine were reached, and six can assist with voluntary observational work. Re-establishing referral pathways for survivors, crucial in GBV response, requires rebuilding and coordination with UNRWA is deemed essential.
[Post edited 28 Nov 2023 14:18]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:39 - Nov 28 with 2612 viewseireblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:32 - Nov 28 by noggin

Alternatively, do you honestly think Israel's capaign, which has murdered thousands of Palestinians and destroyefd the lives of pretty much the population of Gaza, will stop the violence? If not, what's the aim?


Where, in any of the posts on this, have I supported what Isreal is currently doing?

Where in any posts from the past have I supported how the situation has occurred?


Lots of people seem to be applying very wishful thinking, on what Hamas would be prepared to do on the 8th October.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:41 - Nov 28 with 2611 viewseireblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:18 - Nov 28 by Ryorry

Unbelievable that neither of them has the intelligence to see that if they 'destroy' Hamas, Hamas will just re-emerge under a different name.

Taking people with in hearts and minds is what's required, but those are probably the two least likely humans on the planet to do h & m.


I take, “destroy Hamas”, to mean, kill as many fighters as possible, including the leadership, and destroy their military capability, which would include their ability to govern Gaza.

What circumstances on 8th of October would have allowed non-terrorists to emerge in Gaza and govern for the benefit of all the 2 Million or so residents?

To use a bad analogous circumstance, but it helps explain the argument.

There is still the hope of a United Ireland, that has not been destroyed.
What was destroyed was, both the capability and the idea that could be achieved military.
And that was achieved by killing people.

There are still some small pockets of terrorists in NI.
But they don’t have a hold on that process anymore.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:52 - Nov 28 with 2583 viewseireblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:12 - Nov 28 by Darth_Koont

I don’t buy your solution nor the need to present it as the solution that makes most sense for peace. Or that we can’t learn from other previously intractable and violent conflicts between peoples elsewhere.

Does anyone Palestinian or who supports the Palestinian people think that this is the solution? If it’s the best path towards peace then there should be.


Where have I suggested a solution?

And as to one of your questions, there was posted a clip, I think in the aftermath of a bombing, of an elderly lady blaming Hamas for all of this, in Gaza.
A very brave thing to do.

As I have said before, not all pacifists, are absolute pacifists, so they advocate that sometimes you do need to stop the bully in the playground, to use another bad but useful analogy.

In “your” solution, people will still be killed.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:55 - Nov 28 with 2570 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:39 - Nov 28 by eireblue

Where, in any of the posts on this, have I supported what Isreal is currently doing?

Where in any posts from the past have I supported how the situation has occurred?


Lots of people seem to be applying very wishful thinking, on what Hamas would be prepared to do on the 8th October.


I’m struggling to see your point if you’re saying you agree with the aim of destroying Hamas but not the reality.

Pronouns: He/Him

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:08 - Nov 28 with 2537 viewsRob88

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:57 - Nov 28 by Darth_Koont

No. Wanting rid of civilians or at least ignoring the unacceptable human cost is far-right.

I don’t know anyone who doesn’t want Hamas and their murderous methods gone. And let’s be honest that goes for the majority of Palestinians who will be victimised by Israel’s approach.


Don’t agree with the first sentence, quelle surprise.

Would you agree that the majority of Palestinians are also victimised by Hamas’s approach?
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:14 - Nov 28 with 2523 viewsRob88

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:06 - Nov 28 by DJR

The World Health Organization (WHO) has warned that deaths from untreated illnesses could exceed deaths from bombardment in Gaza.

A WHO assessment of UNRWA shelters found widespread diarrhoea and respiratory infections among children and infants, and no treatment whatsoever.

Patients with chronic illnesses such as cancer, heart disease, or diabetes are also getting no treatment.

Meanwhile, the Unicef team in northern Gaza is also warning of catastrophic war injuries, seeing children with "horrendous wounds" lying in car parks and gardens.

Aid agencies repeating that a resumption of fighting should be unthinkable, calling again for a permanent ceasefire.


I would fully support a permanent ceasefire but how would you propose Hamas is eliminated in the event of a permanent ceasefire?
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:16 - Nov 28 with 2520 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:08 - Nov 28 by Rob88

Don’t agree with the first sentence, quelle surprise.

Would you agree that the majority of Palestinians are also victimised by Hamas’s approach?


Yes. The Palestinian and Israeli civilians are victimised by their own extremist, violent and racist leaders who don’t just perpetuate the violence but want to escalate it.

We should be applying international law and a humanitarian roadmap to peace to the whole situation.
[Post edited 28 Nov 2023 15:18]

Pronouns: He/Him

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:37 - Nov 28 with 2452 viewsRob88

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:12 - Nov 28 by Darth_Koont

I don’t buy your solution nor the need to present it as the solution that makes most sense for peace. Or that we can’t learn from other previously intractable and violent conflicts between peoples elsewhere.

Does anyone Palestinian or who supports the Palestinian people think that this is the solution? If it’s the best path towards peace then there should be.


There are Palestinians who have said Hamas need to go. But as they are able to hold two conflicting thought’s simultaneously also acknowledge there needs be more done to minimise civilian casualties. This particular example was a lady on R4 who had lost family members in Gaza.

How do you think Hamas should be neutralised? I am not aware of a successful negotiation to disarm and de-radicalise anIslamic fundamentalist terrorist organisation.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:45 - Nov 28 with 2425 viewsnoggin

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:41 - Nov 28 by eireblue

I take, “destroy Hamas”, to mean, kill as many fighters as possible, including the leadership, and destroy their military capability, which would include their ability to govern Gaza.

What circumstances on 8th of October would have allowed non-terrorists to emerge in Gaza and govern for the benefit of all the 2 Million or so residents?

To use a bad analogous circumstance, but it helps explain the argument.

There is still the hope of a United Ireland, that has not been destroyed.
What was destroyed was, both the capability and the idea that could be achieved military.
And that was achieved by killing people.

There are still some small pockets of terrorists in NI.
But they don’t have a hold on that process anymore.


That sounds like you support what Israel is doing. You want Hamas destroyed but you haven't told us how that happens without the mass murder of civilians.

Poll: If KM goes now, will you applaud him when he returns with his new club?

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:45 - Nov 28 with 2425 viewsRob88

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:16 - Nov 28 by Darth_Koont

Yes. The Palestinian and Israeli civilians are victimised by their own extremist, violent and racist leaders who don’t just perpetuate the violence but want to escalate it.

We should be applying international law and a humanitarian roadmap to peace to the whole situation.
[Post edited 28 Nov 2023 15:18]


I can get behind that to a degree. I do think that wouldn’t hold any water for a fundamentalist terrorist group though.

I think the UN should be the arbitrators and enforcers.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:49 - Nov 28 with 2407 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:37 - Nov 28 by Rob88

There are Palestinians who have said Hamas need to go. But as they are able to hold two conflicting thought’s simultaneously also acknowledge there needs be more done to minimise civilian casualties. This particular example was a lady on R4 who had lost family members in Gaza.

How do you think Hamas should be neutralised? I am not aware of a successful negotiation to disarm and de-radicalise anIslamic fundamentalist terrorist organisation.


A majority of Gazans were already against Hamas before October 7th.

You neutralise Hamas by offering the Palestinians and Israelis a political solution under international law. It's a tried and tested method but that means we also have to get real with Israel and the illegal occupation and oppression we've been tacitly supporting.

Pronouns: He/Him

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:50 - Nov 28 with 2395 viewsnoggin

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:37 - Nov 28 by Rob88

There are Palestinians who have said Hamas need to go. But as they are able to hold two conflicting thought’s simultaneously also acknowledge there needs be more done to minimise civilian casualties. This particular example was a lady on R4 who had lost family members in Gaza.

How do you think Hamas should be neutralised? I am not aware of a successful negotiation to disarm and de-radicalise anIslamic fundamentalist terrorist organisation.


Killing thousands of women and children won't make Israelis safer.

Poll: If KM goes now, will you applaud him when he returns with his new club?

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:51 - Nov 28 with 2394 viewsRob88

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:49 - Nov 28 by Darth_Koont

A majority of Gazans were already against Hamas before October 7th.

You neutralise Hamas by offering the Palestinians and Israelis a political solution under international law. It's a tried and tested method but that means we also have to get real with Israel and the illegal occupation and oppression we've been tacitly supporting.


But Hamas is the governing authority of Gaza. They aren’t just going to roll over.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 16:05 - Nov 28 with 2353 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:51 - Nov 28 by Rob88

But Hamas is the governing authority of Gaza. They aren’t just going to roll over.


I asked the question of what Israel and the world did about the PLO terrorists before.

They became Fatah and the Palestinian Authority. So yes, they did roll over.

And arguably rolled over to have their bellies tickled in the past couple of decades which has worsened the situation for Palestinians overall. But that's a separate issue.

We're portraying Hamas as an obstacle that has to be bulldozed through when it can much more easily be sidelined or sidestepped by putting a civilian-focused peace settlement on the table. Ditto the religious and racist loons pushing the agenda in the Israel government nowadays.

These conflicts are only impossible to resolve when we stop thinking about what and specifically who is really important here — the innocent men, women and children who pay the price for power coupled with extremist ideology. A focus on those people, their rights and their futures would have seen neither Hamas nor Netanyahu come to power.
[Post edited 28 Nov 2023 16:07]

Pronouns: He/Him

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 16:11 - Nov 28 with 2325 viewsRob88

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:50 - Nov 28 by noggin

Killing thousands of women and children won't make Israelis safer.


Removing Hamas will.

I don’t think anyone sane thinks what you have suggested.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 16:12 - Nov 28 with 2322 viewsDJR

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:14 - Nov 28 by Rob88

I would fully support a permanent ceasefire but how would you propose Hamas is eliminated in the event of a permanent ceasefire?


Were I Israeli, I might favour the elimination of Hamas, with the horrendous destruction and loss of life that would entail, although I am not sure if it is possible anyway, short of rounding or killing up every male adult or child In Gaza

But I am not Israeli, so I take my lead on this from international aid organisations and the like who look at things from a humanitarian point of view.

As it is, those opposing a ceasefire did so because they said it would give Hamas a chance to regroup, but we seem to have ended up with a truce much longer than a humanitarian pause, and with talk of it being extended for another five days, surely this will have given Hamas the chance to regroup, and even relocate to the south? This being the case, I wonder if we are in fact heading for a more permanent ceasefire of some sort.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 16:17 - Nov 28 with 2301 viewsnoggin

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 16:12 - Nov 28 by DJR

Were I Israeli, I might favour the elimination of Hamas, with the horrendous destruction and loss of life that would entail, although I am not sure if it is possible anyway, short of rounding or killing up every male adult or child In Gaza

But I am not Israeli, so I take my lead on this from international aid organisations and the like who look at things from a humanitarian point of view.

As it is, those opposing a ceasefire did so because they said it would give Hamas a chance to regroup, but we seem to have ended up with a truce much longer than a humanitarian pause, and with talk of it being extended for another five days, surely this will have given Hamas the chance to regroup, and even relocate to the south? This being the case, I wonder if we are in fact heading for a more permanent ceasefire of some sort.


"Were I Israeli, I might favour the elimination of Hamas, with the horrendous destruction and loss of life that would entail."

And were you a Palestinian, you might (understandably) want Israel wiped off the face of the earth. I don't know what the answer is, but it's definitely not more killing.

Poll: If KM goes now, will you applaud him when he returns with his new club?

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 16:18 - Nov 28 with 2291 viewsnoggin

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 16:11 - Nov 28 by Rob88

Removing Hamas will.

I don’t think anyone sane thinks what you have suggested.


"Removing Hamas will."

No it won't.

Poll: If KM goes now, will you applaud him when he returns with his new club?

0
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