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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? 19:54 - Nov 2 with 286398 viewsnoggin

Yeah but Owen Jones...
[Post edited 3 Nov 2023 9:05]

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:00 - Nov 22 with 2845 viewsDJR

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:53 - Nov 22 by noggin

"Civilians in the Israeli-occupied West Bank also needed to be protected better after about 200 people there had been killed by Israeli settlers, Colonna said."

When does this become a massacre and are these settlers considered terrorists?


Listening to the World Service, it does sound rather scary what is going on in the West Bank, with what looks like collusion between the settlers and the IDF.

Indeed, I posted a report from Channel 4 a couple of weeks ago which involved the killing of a disabled man who offered no threat to anyone, and where both settlers and the IDF were involved.
[Post edited 22 Nov 2023 12:04]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:09 - Nov 22 with 2793 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:00 - Nov 22 by DJR

Listening to the World Service, it does sound rather scary what is going on in the West Bank, with what looks like collusion between the settlers and the IDF.

Indeed, I posted a report from Channel 4 a couple of weeks ago which involved the killing of a disabled man who offered no threat to anyone, and where both settlers and the IDF were involved.
[Post edited 22 Nov 2023 12:04]


I think that what is happening in the West Bank — and could easily get much worse with this kind of officially sanctioned violence — is reason alone to demand a de-escalation.

It reveals that a lot of this isn’t about Hamas but deeply disturbing attitudes to Palestinians and their rights more generally.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:17 - Nov 22 with 2756 viewsNthQldITFC

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:28 - Nov 22 by Blueschev

I would call what's happening ethnic cleansing.


Without meaning any disrespect by my somewhat flippant language, it certainly walks and quacks like ethnic cleansing. I just cannot believe it's still going on and has been tacitly supported by most of the so-called western democracies. The current world order (pretty much all of it) is a fkn disgrace on humanity in many ways.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:29 - Nov 22 with 2726 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:17 - Nov 22 by NthQldITFC

Without meaning any disrespect by my somewhat flippant language, it certainly walks and quacks like ethnic cleansing. I just cannot believe it's still going on and has been tacitly supported by most of the so-called western democracies. The current world order (pretty much all of it) is a fkn disgrace on humanity in many ways.


Self-interest is a pretty basic driver. But it seems that our increasingly populist politics increasingly reflects that. Our criminally weak response to the climate emergency and specifically how that will impact billions of other people and our future selves is a case in point.

Or it’s always been the main driver. Just that more access in the digital age to the facts and different viewpoints and the interests behind them makes that more and more transparent.

I do think that people are generally much, much better than that but unfortunately we’re being “served” by way too many “what’s in it for us?” assessments of risks and problems and the solutions to fix them. It’s lowest common denominator stuff.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:33 - Nov 22 with 2712 viewsitfcjoe

Interesting listening to Jonathan Freedland on the This Is Not A Drill podcast who just talks about the 'maximalists' have never given up and have wrestled the power over the years from any 'partitionists'.

The 'partitionists' would be happy to negotiate and try and find a two state solution, whereas the maximalists would rather live in constant war, with constant fear and poor conditions for their people with the hope of one day having all the territories and will refuse to give up anything because of this hope.

Another lady talks about how only hope is for the Saudis to negotiate the peace with a two state solution as part of that, but obviously it feels so far from that at the moment, and that cause has been set back years and years

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:41 - Nov 22 with 2691 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:33 - Nov 22 by itfcjoe

Interesting listening to Jonathan Freedland on the This Is Not A Drill podcast who just talks about the 'maximalists' have never given up and have wrestled the power over the years from any 'partitionists'.

The 'partitionists' would be happy to negotiate and try and find a two state solution, whereas the maximalists would rather live in constant war, with constant fear and poor conditions for their people with the hope of one day having all the territories and will refuse to give up anything because of this hope.

Another lady talks about how only hope is for the Saudis to negotiate the peace with a two state solution as part of that, but obviously it feels so far from that at the moment, and that cause has been set back years and years


Of course. That’s been blindingly obvious all along and especially over the last couple of decades as the occupation and oppression have been ramped up.

As for pushing this onto Saudi Arabia to resolve ... that’s just dipping the shoulder. We in the U.K. have been way too supportive of the US line and in turn the Israeli line. Saudi Arabia can certainly be brought onside but it’s up to us to either help build an international coalition for peace or get out the way.
[Post edited 22 Nov 2023 12:42]

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The long hard road to a Palestinian state on 12:49 - Nov 22 with 2642 viewsWeWereZombies

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:33 - Nov 22 by itfcjoe

Interesting listening to Jonathan Freedland on the This Is Not A Drill podcast who just talks about the 'maximalists' have never given up and have wrestled the power over the years from any 'partitionists'.

The 'partitionists' would be happy to negotiate and try and find a two state solution, whereas the maximalists would rather live in constant war, with constant fear and poor conditions for their people with the hope of one day having all the territories and will refuse to give up anything because of this hope.

Another lady talks about how only hope is for the Saudis to negotiate the peace with a two state solution as part of that, but obviously it feels so far from that at the moment, and that cause has been set back years and years


Really ? I think with the collapse of a no holds barred approach from Netanyahu and his talks by proxy with Hamas that the right wing extremists in Israel have been politically weakened and a two state solution is at the closest point since the days of Yasser Arafat (but this time the state of Palestine will be internationally imposed with or without Israel's agreement.)

The apparent rapprochement happening between Saudi Arabia and Iran (at the same time as relations with Israel have become frosty) will spook the United States. There are also major nations such as populous Indonesia who have had hospitals and other infrastructure donations to Palestine destroyed, a lot of pissed off people internationally who are going to give short shrift to paramilitary groups or state sponsored terrorism because they do not want to see the massive new contribution they are going to make to rebuilding Gaza wasted.

Thread title changed, yet again
[Post edited 22 Nov 2023 15:23]

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:02 - Nov 22 with 2609 viewsitfcjoe

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:41 - Nov 22 by Darth_Koont

Of course. That’s been blindingly obvious all along and especially over the last couple of decades as the occupation and oppression have been ramped up.

As for pushing this onto Saudi Arabia to resolve ... that’s just dipping the shoulder. We in the U.K. have been way too supportive of the US line and in turn the Israeli line. Saudi Arabia can certainly be brought onside but it’s up to us to either help build an international coalition for peace or get out the way.
[Post edited 22 Nov 2023 12:42]


I think your view on the UKs influence is vastly overstated, we are totally insignificant in this

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:05 - Nov 22 with 2591 viewsBlueschev

The long hard road to a Palestinian state on 12:49 - Nov 22 by WeWereZombies

Really ? I think with the collapse of a no holds barred approach from Netanyahu and his talks by proxy with Hamas that the right wing extremists in Israel have been politically weakened and a two state solution is at the closest point since the days of Yasser Arafat (but this time the state of Palestine will be internationally imposed with or without Israel's agreement.)

The apparent rapprochement happening between Saudi Arabia and Iran (at the same time as relations with Israel have become frosty) will spook the United States. There are also major nations such as populous Indonesia who have had hospitals and other infrastructure donations to Palestine destroyed, a lot of pissed off people internationally who are going to give short shrift to paramilitary groups or state sponsored terrorism because they do not want to see the massive new contribution they are going to make to rebuilding Gaza wasted.

Thread title changed, yet again
[Post edited 22 Nov 2023 15:23]


I wish I shared your optimism but I just can't see it. Where will the 3/4 of a million settlers going to go? No US President is going force this through and have the settlements dismantled, it would be electoral suicide, and no other country has the power to influence Israel in such a way.
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Any small progress should be welcomed. on 13:06 - Nov 22 with 2575 viewsWeWereZombies

Any small progress should be welcomed. on 11:05 - Nov 22 by noggin

Thank you. So Israel has been holding women and children, without trial?


I was wrong to expect there always had been a trial:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67493713

'Five are as young as 14 years old, imprisoned for offences ranging from throwing firebombs to arson, according to the Israeli newspaper Haaretz...Israel is currently holding about 7,000 Palestinians accused or convicted of security offences, according to Israeli and Palestinian rights groups. Almost 3,000 Palestinians are reported to have been arrested in the occupied West Bank and East Jerusalem, where violence has also surged, since 7 October.'

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:12 - Nov 22 with 2555 viewsgiant_stow

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:05 - Nov 22 by Blueschev

I wish I shared your optimism but I just can't see it. Where will the 3/4 of a million settlers going to go? No US President is going force this through and have the settlements dismantled, it would be electoral suicide, and no other country has the power to influence Israel in such a way.


I spose we can only hope that it becomes clear that American interests are best served by a two-state solution. I can't think what the argument against that would be and their public comments do seem to suggest they're thinking that way (or the ones I've seen at least)

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:15 - Nov 22 with 2550 viewsDJR

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:02 - Nov 22 by itfcjoe

I think your view on the UKs influence is vastly overstated, we are totally insignificant in this


We are one of only five countries in the world who are permanent members of, and have a veto in, the Security Council, so to say we are insignificant is stretching things.

Indeed, I read something yesterday that non-aligned countries were trying to put pressure on the US and the UK in their role as permanent members supportive of Israel.

It mustn't be forgotten that another permanent member, France, has been much more critical of Israeli action, and I do sense this has had some bearing on the fact that there appears to have been some change in approach by Netanyahu.
[Post edited 22 Nov 2023 15:13]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:18 - Nov 22 with 2535 viewsDJR

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:05 - Nov 22 by Blueschev

I wish I shared your optimism but I just can't see it. Where will the 3/4 of a million settlers going to go? No US President is going force this through and have the settlements dismantled, it would be electoral suicide, and no other country has the power to influence Israel in such a way.


I'm with you on this. And there may be nothing left of Gaza in addition, if the Israeli military's plans see fruition.
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What happens next ? on 13:18 - Nov 22 with 2526 viewsWeWereZombies

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:05 - Nov 22 by Blueschev

I wish I shared your optimism but I just can't see it. Where will the 3/4 of a million settlers going to go? No US President is going force this through and have the settlements dismantled, it would be electoral suicide, and no other country has the power to influence Israel in such a way.


I don't think it is up to the United States to force this through, and there are plenty of citizens there who do not want American lives jeopardised overseas (even some Trump supporters will view Palestine and Israel as a long way away and not affecting them,) so I do not want to get into second guessing the future politics of that troubled nation.

Israel has got to learn to get on with its neighbours and also to heal its own internal divisions. For reasons I have stated in previous posts (protection of a Jewish homeland through a separate homeland for an increasing Arab population, calming of antisemitism around the World) two states are the only way I see forward that protects the majority of all citizens but the boundary negotiations are going to be fraught. Maybe many of the arrivistes, who are probably already finding life much less ideal than they expected, will leave voluntary and lessen the problem.

Edited to change thread title
[Post edited 22 Nov 2023 15:15]

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:28 - Nov 22 with 2504 viewsDJR

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:55 - Nov 22 by DJR

There are currently 1.7 million internally displaced people in Gaza, so thinking further about the plans of the Israeli military, which would appear to involve a small uninhabited area near the coast in southern Gaza, we could end up with, say, 2.2 million people crowded into that tiny area if the plans go ahead.

I can't see the US allowing that to happen.

The other thing to say is that the military may plan for things, but that doesn't mean that it will be given the go ahead politically.
[Post edited 22 Nov 2023 12:02]


Concerning to the movement of Palestinian civilians to supposedly safer areas, it is interesting to consider Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention relating to civilians, which is as follows: "protected persons" includes civilians.

"Article 49

Individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to the territory of the Occupying Power or to that of any other country, occupied or not, are prohibited, regardless of their motive.

Nevertheless, the Occupying Power may undertake total or partial evacuation of a given area if the security of the population or imperative military reasons so demand. Such evacuations may not involve the displacement of protected persons outside the bounds of the occupied territory except when for material reasons it is impossible to avoid such displacement. Persons thus evacuated shall be transferred back to their homes as soon as hostilities in the area in question have ceased.

The Occupying Power undertaking such transfers or evacuations shall ensure, to the greatest practicable extent, that proper accommodation is provided to receive the protected persons, that the removals are effected in satisfactory conditions of hygiene, health, safety and nutrition, and that members of the same family are not separated."

It could be argued that Israel has complied with the second limb of this Article, but it is very difficult to argue they have complied with the third limb.
[Post edited 22 Nov 2023 13:30]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:29 - Nov 22 with 2497 viewsBlueschev

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:12 - Nov 22 by giant_stow

I spose we can only hope that it becomes clear that American interests are best served by a two-state solution. I can't think what the argument against that would be and their public comments do seem to suggest they're thinking that way (or the ones I've seen at least)


The influence of evangelical Christians in US politics makes any US support for a two state solution tricky domestically. And a Palestinian state next to Israel weakens their biggest strategic military ally in the Middle East. I just don't see the US incentive for pushing it through.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:33 - Nov 22 with 2481 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:15 - Nov 22 by DJR

We are one of only five countries in the world who are permanent members of, and have a veto in, the Security Council, so to say we are insignificant is stretching things.

Indeed, I read something yesterday that non-aligned countries were trying to put pressure on the US and the UK in their role as permanent members supportive of Israel.

It mustn't be forgotten that another permanent member, France, has been much more critical of Israeli action, and I do sense this has had some bearing on the fact that there appears to have been some change in approach by Netanyahu.
[Post edited 22 Nov 2023 15:13]


Indeed.

We’re certainly far too important to be backing the wrong approach and providing way too much cover for war crimes and injustice. And I agree with your assessment of the importance of France’s move in helping shift the rhetoric and the direction of the conflict. In an unacceptable situation, morally and indeed strategically, all it takes is the breaking of the geopolitical consensus many in the west have clearly hid behind.

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How easy is it to gauge World opinion ? on 13:46 - Nov 22 with 2430 viewsWeWereZombies

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:29 - Nov 22 by Blueschev

The influence of evangelical Christians in US politics makes any US support for a two state solution tricky domestically. And a Palestinian state next to Israel weakens their biggest strategic military ally in the Middle East. I just don't see the US incentive for pushing it through.


But,as I stated at the start of my previous post, it does not require a United States incentive or involvement for it to happen (although it may require international pressure to keep the United States out of the process.) The call for a two state solution has come from as disparate sources as Cyril Ramaphosa, China, The Pope and The Council of Elders. After this current fiasco ends I do not think many want to see the region descend into madness once again, it would be a shame if two great diplomatic powers such as the United Kingdom and France had no say in the matter (and unfortunate in a World of changing power if they had too much say.)

Thread title edited
[Post edited 22 Nov 2023 15:20]

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:00 - Nov 22 with 2401 viewsBlueschev

How easy is it to gauge World opinion ? on 13:46 - Nov 22 by WeWereZombies

But,as I stated at the start of my previous post, it does not require a United States incentive or involvement for it to happen (although it may require international pressure to keep the United States out of the process.) The call for a two state solution has come from as disparate sources as Cyril Ramaphosa, China, The Pope and The Council of Elders. After this current fiasco ends I do not think many want to see the region descend into madness once again, it would be a shame if two great diplomatic powers such as the United Kingdom and France had no say in the matter (and unfortunate in a World of changing power if they had too much say.)

Thread title edited
[Post edited 22 Nov 2023 15:20]


The US provides billions of dollars in aid to Israel every year and is the biggest military power the world has ever seen, there is no way in hell any settlement will be reached without their direct involvement.
[Post edited 22 Nov 2023 14:02]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:27 - Nov 22 with 2342 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:00 - Nov 22 by Blueschev

The US provides billions of dollars in aid to Israel every year and is the biggest military power the world has ever seen, there is no way in hell any settlement will be reached without their direct involvement.
[Post edited 22 Nov 2023 14:02]


You’re probably right. But they will respond to international and domestic pressure.

They also need, at some point, to start backing up their two-state peace rhetoric. Successive administrations have talked a good game but ignored the reality of Israeli settler expansion and the increasing apartheid reality for Palestinians that makes a mockery of those words.

I see many similarities with how the US and UK covered for apartheid South Africa for so long. Saying that they were essentially protecting South Africa from terrorism and the danger of a non-white South African government lurching towards communism and Soviet influence. But when the calls for change and justice internationally and domestically started becoming more of a current problem for those governments then the projected fears were put in their rightful place and they finally agreed to sanctions against South Africa almost 30 years after the UN had initially called for them.

Of course, having an election next year and with Trump around makes that difficult. It certainly makes me think Biden is trying to be a bit more of a strongman than he would otherwise be. But ultimately I’m convinced that’s where we’ll end up with the world including Western populations now much more aware and increasingly critical about what is going on and has been allowed to fester.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:36 - Nov 22 with 2316 viewsBlueschev

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:27 - Nov 22 by Darth_Koont

You’re probably right. But they will respond to international and domestic pressure.

They also need, at some point, to start backing up their two-state peace rhetoric. Successive administrations have talked a good game but ignored the reality of Israeli settler expansion and the increasing apartheid reality for Palestinians that makes a mockery of those words.

I see many similarities with how the US and UK covered for apartheid South Africa for so long. Saying that they were essentially protecting South Africa from terrorism and the danger of a non-white South African government lurching towards communism and Soviet influence. But when the calls for change and justice internationally and domestically started becoming more of a current problem for those governments then the projected fears were put in their rightful place and they finally agreed to sanctions against South Africa almost 30 years after the UN had initially called for them.

Of course, having an election next year and with Trump around makes that difficult. It certainly makes me think Biden is trying to be a bit more of a strongman than he would otherwise be. But ultimately I’m convinced that’s where we’ll end up with the world including Western populations now much more aware and increasingly critical about what is going on and has been allowed to fester.


Apartheid ended in South Africa due to the collapse of the Soviet Union. Had that not happened the status quo would have remained the same, despite international and domestic pressure. I don't think the situations are that comparable. As I said previously, Israel is the US's key strategic ally in the region, a Palestinian state weakens Israel militarily, so what is in it for the US?
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How much does American opinion matter ? on 14:38 - Nov 22 with 2299 viewsWeWereZombies

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:00 - Nov 22 by Blueschev

The US provides billions of dollars in aid to Israel every year and is the biggest military power the world has ever seen, there is no way in hell any settlement will be reached without their direct involvement.
[Post edited 22 Nov 2023 14:02]


One of my biggest reliefs as I travelled for six days through the Jasmine Revolution (and eventually got to the airport in Tunis) was that there were no US Army boots on the ground, I suspect things would have gotten a lot more violent if that had happened. For two or three days we were holed up at a hotel in Kairouan with a couple of American basketball players who were signed to the local club. I implored them to get in touch with the US Embassy to get out of the country but I don't know if they ever did, we got a louage to Monastir as soon as it felt safe ('ish.) One thing I impressed upon them was that Hilary Clinton was doing right by the Tunisian people and that they should take some strength from that, but things have gone backwards since then. The United States is one of three superpowers again now and with dozens of important nations emerging on the inside track, the BRICS anf the MINTS for starters.

Edited - that one sided thread title is a stubborn búgger...
[Post edited 22 Nov 2023 15:26]

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Has Israel been practising apartheid and is 1980s South Africa a comparison ? on 14:48 - Nov 22 with 2265 viewsWeWereZombies

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:36 - Nov 22 by Blueschev

Apartheid ended in South Africa due to the collapse of the Soviet Union. Had that not happened the status quo would have remained the same, despite international and domestic pressure. I don't think the situations are that comparable. As I said previously, Israel is the US's key strategic ally in the region, a Palestinian state weakens Israel militarily, so what is in it for the US?


I have to say that attributing the ending of apartheid to the fall of the Soviet Union is somewhat disrespectful to Mandela and his associates, to say nothing of the millions who lived and (thousands who) died through non-violent resistance. Also I can hardly remember it being mentioned in Anthony Sampson magisterial biography of Mandela. In fact I would suggest that the fall of the Soviet Union weakened the hand of the ANC as it diminished any supply of arms via Algeria and Angola.

Edit: Different thread title
[Post edited 22 Nov 2023 15:28]

Poll: What was in Wes Burns' imaginary cup of tea ?

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:56 - Nov 22 with 2247 viewsBlueschev

Has Israel been practising apartheid and is 1980s South Africa a comparison ? on 14:48 - Nov 22 by WeWereZombies

I have to say that attributing the ending of apartheid to the fall of the Soviet Union is somewhat disrespectful to Mandela and his associates, to say nothing of the millions who lived and (thousands who) died through non-violent resistance. Also I can hardly remember it being mentioned in Anthony Sampson magisterial biography of Mandela. In fact I would suggest that the fall of the Soviet Union weakened the hand of the ANC as it diminished any supply of arms via Algeria and Angola.

Edit: Different thread title
[Post edited 22 Nov 2023 15:28]


Do you honestly believe that the US would have allowed the ANC, of which the South African communist party was affiliated, to have taken power in South Africa were the Soviet Union still in existence?
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:58 - Nov 22 with 2241 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:36 - Nov 22 by Blueschev

Apartheid ended in South Africa due to the collapse of the Soviet Union. Had that not happened the status quo would have remained the same, despite international and domestic pressure. I don't think the situations are that comparable. As I said previously, Israel is the US's key strategic ally in the region, a Palestinian state weakens Israel militarily, so what is in it for the US?


I don’t disagree that was a big factor. And clearly disgracefully managed as a sphere of influence matter where we were willing to sacrifice the basic human rights of 10s of millions of South Africans.

But there was also no doubt that the international and domestic audiences were no longer buying what we and the US were selling.

Now with Israel and Palestine the bogeyman of Iran is frequently raised and we know that Israel is a sphere of influence partner. But that too uncritical support isn’t being bought by enough people and countries around the world. Based in no small part on how we’ve mismanaged South African apartheid in the past but more recently our records in Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya.

I think the world is facing too many other existential threats and challenges and more power is shifting towards the Global South and China for us to hang onto the same narrow self-interested foreign and military policies which faced little to no repercussions and penalties.

Clearly, it’s impossible to know how this develops but I don’t see anything like the same ability to resist the tide of change and justice for too long.

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