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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? 19:54 - Nov 2 with 299427 viewsnoggin

Yeah but Owen Jones...
[Post edited 3 Nov 2023 9:05]

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 19:39 - Nov 19 with 3609 viewsRob88

Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. on 18:48 - Nov 19 by WeWereZombies

The catalyst ? Now there's a word that could lead us down a very deep rabbit hole, deep and dangerous.

A more pertinent statement, in fact a question, is why now ? Ten or fifteen years of an uneasy relationship with Netanyahu's administration could be explained by just running out of patience, but as they do not appear to have a military defence in place to repel the Israeli Defence Force then had they done any planning at all ?

But then we are told that Hamas have no regard for the people they have power over, that they take orders from the Iranian regime. So why have Iran instructed them to conduct an apparent Jihad now ? And is there a military response on the way from them ? Are we just arguing about the starter at the moment and we are in for a very unpleasant surprise when the main course is served ?

Edit: Thread title changed
[Post edited 19 Nov 2023 21:02]


No need for rabbit holes. It’s simple. The recent Israeli response was triggered by the Hamas attack. No need to over complicate things or read into something that isn’t there. That’s how 20+ pagers happen.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 19:46 - Nov 19 with 3570 viewsRob88

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 19:36 - Nov 19 by redrickstuhaart

Israel wont agree a two state solution. And once they pacify Hamas and have control over Gaza, they wont have to.


Again, false. They’ve tried on multiple occasions to negotiate and a two state solution has been one such option on the table.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 20:04 - Nov 19 with 3531 viewsredrickstuhaart

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 19:39 - Nov 19 by Rob88

No need for rabbit holes. It’s simple. The recent Israeli response was triggered by the Hamas attack. No need to over complicate things or read into something that isn’t there. That’s how 20+ pagers happen.


What has fuelled Hamas over decades?
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 20:06 - Nov 19 with 3525 viewsredrickstuhaart

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 19:46 - Nov 19 by Rob88

Again, false. They’ve tried on multiple occasions to negotiate and a two state solution has been one such option on the table.


I quote the Israeli Ambassador to the UK: "Between the sea and the Jordan River, there needs to be one state, only the state of Israel.’
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Once the dust has settled how many Palestinian and Israeli lives will have been? on 20:38 - Nov 19 with 3465 viewsWeWereZombies

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 19:36 - Nov 19 by redrickstuhaart

Israel wont agree a two state solution. And once they pacify Hamas and have control over Gaza, they wont have to.


Israel may not agree to a two state solution but I think they are going to have it imposed upon them. And I suspect they will not pacify Hamas, victory might be declared but a new or revived Hamas will spring up.

But even as we post there appears to be dialogue between Israel and Hamas in Qatar with a view to releasing all the hostages (it is going to be interesting to see if any Hamas prisoners that the Israelis hold get sprung as a result of this.) So all this talk of eradicating Hamas appears to have been bogus anyway. What a waste of thousands of civilian lives have resulted from these two hard line opponents and their inadequate attempts at force and diplomacy.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 20:38 - Nov 19 with 3471 viewsNthsuffolkblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 19:02 - Nov 19 by giant_stow

My problem with North Suffolk Blue's wording was the implication that 'Israel' is trying to 'eradicate Palestinians'. That would indeed be genocidal, but that is not what the current Israeli *govt* is doing. I asked for clarification, but NSB appeared to confirm that meaning (maybe in not so many words).

Whether what they *are* doing is genocidal is massive question - I can see why some people think it is, but have a few doubts, particularly given that Hamas does nothing to stop that suffering - if anything, they seem to make it worse. Can two waring entities collaborate in a population's genocide?


You seem to accept that they are behaving in every way that other countries perpetrating genocide act but you don't accept that term because they have not publicly stated it as their aim.

If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, smells like a duck, tastes like a duck, why are you sure it is a parsnip?

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 20:43 - Nov 19 with 3443 viewsredrickstuhaart

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 20:38 - Nov 19 by Nthsuffolkblue

You seem to accept that they are behaving in every way that other countries perpetrating genocide act but you don't accept that term because they have not publicly stated it as their aim.

If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, smells like a duck, tastes like a duck, why are you sure it is a parsnip?


Quack.
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How did all this loss of Israeli and Palestinian life arise ? on 20:49 - Nov 19 with 3417 viewsWeWereZombies

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 19:39 - Nov 19 by Rob88

No need for rabbit holes. It’s simple. The recent Israeli response was triggered by the Hamas attack. No need to over complicate things or read into something that isn’t there. That’s how 20+ pagers happen.


Like it or not the Hamas attack was the result of the cat and mouse tactics with Netanyahu's administration running out of ideas. Again, you seem to have blindsided all the other questions that make your over simplistic view of things work (for you but not too many others I think.)

How did Hamas arrive in a position of control over Gaza ? A couple of decades ago it was Fateh who were the bad boys and now they are the docile back tracking admin in the West Bank. How did this whole problem arise anyway ? The Balfour Declaration's aims for a single state explains that in part but even if we blame ourselves (as inheritors of the Empire's many problems) what caused the expulsion of Jews from The Holy Land ?

As George Satayana wrote back in 1905 'Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it' and perhaps you should think yourself fortunate that some of us are prepared to take a little bit of time and put in some effort to try and inform you of what is so obvious to just about everyone else.

Edited to change thread title
[Post edited 19 Nov 2023 21:00]

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 20:49 - Nov 19 with 3420 viewsRob88

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 20:04 - Nov 19 by redrickstuhaart

What has fuelled Hamas over decades?


Radical islamic fundamentalism would make sense. That is what their organisation is.

You shouldn’t confuse Hamas with the Palestinian people, they are not one and the same. Many Palestinians will be under duress now from Hamas.
[Post edited 19 Nov 2023 20:53]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 20:53 - Nov 19 with 3403 viewsSuperKieranMcKenna

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:46 - Nov 19 by GlasgowBlue

I now I'm back I’ll do you the courtesy of answering all the questions you put to me. And I’ll back up those answer with credible sources

Regarding the numbers of civilian deaths in Gaza. You state “I don't think it's right to cast doubt on the numbers unless you have something specific to back it up”.

Well firstly, I didn’t cast doubt on them I gave the disclaimer that these were Hamas figures. Something I’ll address later in my reply. However, if you are looking first something “specific to back it up” Is the President of the United States of America a decent enough source?

Joe Biden is on record as saying “I have no notion that the Palestinians are telling the truth about how many people are killed. I’m sure innocents have been killed, and it’s the price of waging a war,” the US president said. “But I have no confidence in the number that the Palestinians are using.”

I think it’s fair to say that Biden sees intelligence on the situation that that isn’t available to a couple of football fans on a message board.

Luke Baker, a former Reuters bureau chief in Jerusalem, also casts doubt on the reliability of the numbers : “It seems obvious that any self-respecting news organisation would make clear that Gaza’s health ministry is run by Hamas. Hamas has a clear propaganda incentive to inflate civilian casualties as much as possible. I’m not denying there are civilians being killed,”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/26/can-we-trust-casualty-figures-from

Other organisations, some of which you have named, and others in the above Guardian article I have linked, believe the figures to be fairly accurate. But even they accept that there is a grey area in differentiating combatants from civilians among the dead. As I said in my post, it beggars belief that the Israelis have only killed civilians and not a single member of Hamas has died. Bearing in mind that Hamas are the government, the police, the armed forces in Gaza etc.

So I don’t think it is unreasonable for me, when using numbers of civilian deaths* in my post to say “If Hamas are to be believed”.

Hamas control the Gaza Health Ministry. Just as you disputed the Covid figures coming out of Russia and China because their health ministries were controlled by Putin and Xi. People are entitled to put in the disclaimer that Hamas control the Gaza health ministry when using their figures.

So I don’t believe it’s fair for you to use language such as “poisoning the well”. If you read my post clearly, I wasn’t disputing the numbers killed. I put in the disclaimer, just as news outlets say certain claims by the IDF are unverified, and showed incredulity that very Gazan death was civilian. Not a single member of Hamas killed.

Of course, that’s just a distraction from the actual point I was making. NSB made a statement that “the poorly framed "war on terror" (his words, not mine) was nowhere near as disproportionate as this"

11,000 civilian deaths, if the figures from the Hamas controlled Gaza Health ministry are to be believed*, in Gaza compared to approximately 400,000 civilian deaths in "the poorly framed "war on terror" (again, his words, not mine) shows that statement to be quite wrong. Would be better for the debate if that point was actually addressed rather than the minutiae of language used in my post.

Moving on to your points regarding my question 4. You make two separate points although they are related. One regarding my view of the BBC, and in particular the face to camera option given by Jeremy Bowen. And one reading whether Hamas use Schools, Hospitals and other civilian areas to carry out their operations. I’ll address the BBC point first.

Taking aside from the fact that the BBC refuse to call Hamas terrorists, there reporting has been very shoddy. When a Palestinian Islamic Jihad rocket hit the Al Ahli hospital, not only was the BBC quick to blame Israel, the reporter went as far to say that the sort of rocket could only have come from Israel (an opinion not a report) but the number of fatalities reported by the Hamas controlled Gaza Health ministry wasn't questioned.

There's still no evidence that 500 people died, yet the BBC expressed no scepticism at the time.

Then there is this utter embarrassment of shoddy reporting



Jeremy Bowen is a journalist. Yet in that piece he isn’t reporting on what he has seen. Whether you think the stash of munitions is sufficient to amount to a "military base" is beside the point. Jeremy Bowen was bending over backwards to come up with an explanation as to why they might not even belong to Hamas at all.

“It’s not inconceivable that, I don’t know, perhaps the security department of the hospital might have [Kalashnikovs], certainly the police do”

Does hospital security also normally have grenades, explosive belts, and Hamas insignias? Rather than applying Occam's Razor, Jeremy Bowen strains every sinew to cast doubt on the claim that the hospital was being used by Hamas. He’s acting like a counsel for the defence rather than an independent reporter. Any excuse other than the obvious.

The IDF have also released footage of tunnels and munitions at other hospitals.

As for schools, I didn’t make any mention of the school that was bombed yesterday. I wasn’t aware of that at the time if my post. I stated “how does the IDF make "clinical and directed" strikes on Hamas when they embed themselves in schools, civilian areas and hospitals”. Schools in the plural, not a specific school.

This is a well documented Hamas tactic and part of their human shield strategy, which was widely exposed during the 2014 conflict.

Again, I’ll call in a former President of the USA to reiterate that point.

“And Hamas is really smart. When they decide to rocket insinuate themselves in the hospitals, in the schools, in the highly populace areas. And they are smart. So they try to put the Israelis in the position of either not defending or killing innocent civilians”.



NATO
https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf

Former USAID Gaza/West Bank Mission Director


CNN
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israel-photos-hamas-gaza-weapons-un-facilities-incl

UNRWA
https://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-releases/unrwa-condemns-placement-rockets-s

Your final point “You say each civilian death is a tragedy but also seem to imply "what are the IDF supposed to do". I don't think that's a very clear position. Can you let us know what you think they should do?

Israel are at war after the barbarity I described in my op. I have no doubt that there can only be one outcome. The absolute defeat and removal of Hamas from Gaza.

They are responsible for every civilian death in Gaza. And they don’t give a toss about the people or the loss of life.

https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/article-770918

What do I expect the IDF to do? Not cut off water or electricity. That is a war crime for which I believe Netanyahu should spend the rest of his life in a cold cell.

I expect the IDF to carry out its campaign within the laws of war. Give civilians a chance to vacate the areas they intend to target in advance. They drop thousands of leaflets on the civilian population warning when and where attacks are going to take place. Israel are probably one of the few armies in the world that do this in modern times. It’s something that the allies did for the French population when carrying out bombing raids against the Nazis in occupied territory. And just like the Nazis refusing to let the people leave for safety, Hamas have attempted to stop thousands of civilians leaving Gaza. Many attempting to leave have been shot by Hamas. No doubt included in those civilian casualty figures.

Giant Stow linked an incredible series of telephone calls between the IDF and a Palestinian civilian government between. Incredibly detailed.

'I’m calling from Israeli intelligence. We have the order to bomb. You have tw by giant_stow 8 Nov 2023 12:20
...hours'

Realise this is on the BBC home page, so loads will have seen it, but in case you missed it, quite an insight into the war:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67327079



It would take some sort of heartless bastard not to be affected by the daily scenes we are seeing win our TV screens coming out of Gaza and feel no emotion. It’s unbearable seeing fathers carrying the bodies of bloodied dead or maimed babies. As a father myself, I couldn’t even to begin to imagine this happening to one of my own children. But this is war. And I’ve yet to see a war where innocents weren’t killed. 7000 innocent civilians were killed during NATO’s campaign against ISIS. But the outcome was that ISIS lost its territories and their terror campaign against western targets has greatly diminished.

We didn’t see the dead babies and injured children being beamed to our screen on a daily basis during that operation. We just ignorantly let NATO carry out their job and we are all the safer for it. Are we to deny Israel’s right to take similar actions against Hamas in light of October 7th? Should Israel be expected to fight their war under higher standards than those of NATO?

Well that’s very easy for me to say, and easy for others to counter in the comfort of our own middle class homes. We can give opinions knowing that very little of this will affect us.

If Hamas are using schools and hospitals as bases of operations, then under international law they are a legitimate target. I’m not comfortable with that. It is impossible to evacuate patients from hospitals with very little warning. So I do not support that action in any way. I’ve said that before.

So in answer to your last question “Can you let us know what you think they should do?” I don’t have an answer. Neither do you or most people around the world. A ceasefire? No. All that does is allow Hamas to re group and re arm. People whose views you would respect more than mine are of the same opinion.





Like Bernie Saunders my only temporary solution is a humanitarian pause to allow more civilians to find safe refuge and get in food, water, power and shelter for people.

Im happy to come back to you with any reply you give me Stokie but anyone else wanting to challenge me on the above,I won’t be making multiple replies. I’ve laid out my position. People are free to agree or disagree with them. And I’m not spending my Sunday doing this all day plus I’m also going back out for the day.

*I’ve used the words “If Hamas controlled Gaza Health ministry are to be believed” rather than “If Hamas are to be believed” if you prefer that. But the two are the same.


I’m no supporter of the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, there was clearly an argument for regime change, with Saddam gassing his own people and the Taliban were/are barbarians. However, I’m not sure the human cost was justifiable both in terms of the civilians and British troops. I think there’s an important distinction though between the military conduct of the US/UK and allies in those campaigns compared to the IDF. I believe there was much more care taken to avoid civilian casualties, whilst of course there were many I don’t believe they’d target hospitals and schools in the way the IDF has. Indeed a lot of the civilians casualties were indirectly - the result of the toppling of those regimes and the resulting power vacuum which let to bloody insurgencies in which thousands of civilians were killed.

Also, not directly relevant to this thread, I’d point out that the bombing campaign against ISIS (as well as the invasions of Iraq and Afganistan) were not NATO operations (there was a NATO peacekeeping mission following the invasion of Afghanistan). The only reason I point this out is because Russian trolls and their gullible followers like to frame NATO as an aggressor, but that was not the case.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 20:56 - Nov 19 with 3389 viewsNthsuffolkblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 20:49 - Nov 19 by Rob88

Radical islamic fundamentalism would make sense. That is what their organisation is.

You shouldn’t confuse Hamas with the Palestinian people, they are not one and the same. Many Palestinians will be under duress now from Hamas.
[Post edited 19 Nov 2023 20:53]


I think you are right and that does need to be dealt with.

However, the wider support for them is bound to be largely fuelled by the history of injustice Palestinian people have suffered.

Hamas should be dealt with. They are a terrorist organisation that committed a dreadful atrocity. However, there are historic injustices that need to be dealt with too and bombing, starving and persecuting civilians isn't going to achieve any of that either.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 20:57 - Nov 19 with 3391 viewsredrickstuhaart

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 20:49 - Nov 19 by Rob88

Radical islamic fundamentalism would make sense. That is what their organisation is.

You shouldn’t confuse Hamas with the Palestinian people, they are not one and the same. Many Palestinians will be under duress now from Hamas.
[Post edited 19 Nov 2023 20:53]


How about being dispossessed, stateless, and having your homes bulldozed by settlers?
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 20:57 - Nov 19 with 3385 viewsRob88

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 20:06 - Nov 19 by redrickstuhaart

I quote the Israeli Ambassador to the UK: "Between the sea and the Jordan River, there needs to be one state, only the state of Israel.’


She needs weeding out of their diplomatic and political system.

I will refer you to Noggins point earlier about a few bad apples….

The history with respect to negotiations on behalf of Israel is there for all to see.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:06 - Nov 19 with 3363 viewsredrickstuhaart

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 20:57 - Nov 19 by Rob88

She needs weeding out of their diplomatic and political system.

I will refer you to Noggins point earlier about a few bad apples….

The history with respect to negotiations on behalf of Israel is there for all to see.


She was chosen for representing their views to us. Not evne playing to the home crowd.
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How did all this loss of Israeli and Palestinian life arise ? on 21:14 - Nov 19 with 3344 viewsRob88

How did all this loss of Israeli and Palestinian life arise ? on 20:49 - Nov 19 by WeWereZombies

Like it or not the Hamas attack was the result of the cat and mouse tactics with Netanyahu's administration running out of ideas. Again, you seem to have blindsided all the other questions that make your over simplistic view of things work (for you but not too many others I think.)

How did Hamas arrive in a position of control over Gaza ? A couple of decades ago it was Fateh who were the bad boys and now they are the docile back tracking admin in the West Bank. How did this whole problem arise anyway ? The Balfour Declaration's aims for a single state explains that in part but even if we blame ourselves (as inheritors of the Empire's many problems) what caused the expulsion of Jews from The Holy Land ?

As George Satayana wrote back in 1905 'Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it' and perhaps you should think yourself fortunate that some of us are prepared to take a little bit of time and put in some effort to try and inform you of what is so obvious to just about everyone else.

Edited to change thread title
[Post edited 19 Nov 2023 21:00]


With all due respect Zombie, I’ve had the displeasure of reading some absolute garbage on this thread, which is why I took umbrage and started calling it out and playing peoples perverse logic back to them. I don’t think I’ll be taking any lessons from some of you lot so you can save the patronising tone.

Even this post stinks of BS.

Let’s just take one example from what you have said. Is it not wildly believed that Hamas was a protest vote against the corruption of the prior incumbent Fatah.

I don’t think the Palestinian people were wanting an Islamic Revolution of Israel. Which is what Hamas want.

Im very fortunate that the silent majority do not buy this BS.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:28 - Nov 19 with 3315 viewsRob88

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:06 - Nov 19 by redrickstuhaart

She was chosen for representing their views to us. Not evne playing to the home crowd.


I honestly wouldn’t worry too much about it at the moment as whilst Hamas is in power there will be no peace, recognition or negotiation.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:28 - Nov 19 with 3314 viewsgiant_stow

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 20:38 - Nov 19 by Nthsuffolkblue

You seem to accept that they are behaving in every way that other countries perpetrating genocide act but you don't accept that term because they have not publicly stated it as their aim.

If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, smells like a duck, tastes like a duck, why are you sure it is a parsnip?


eradicate
/ɪˈradɪkeɪt/
verb
destroy completely; put an end to.
"this disease has been eradicated from the world"

Israel is not trying to eradicate Palestinians - surely you can accept that?

I accept I may be getting caught up in a detail, but then again, it seems like quite an important detail to me at least..

Has anyone ever looked at their own postings for last day or so? Oh my... so sorry. Was Ullaa
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:34 - Nov 19 with 3304 viewsRob88

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 20:53 - Nov 19 by SuperKieranMcKenna

I’m no supporter of the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, there was clearly an argument for regime change, with Saddam gassing his own people and the Taliban were/are barbarians. However, I’m not sure the human cost was justifiable both in terms of the civilians and British troops. I think there’s an important distinction though between the military conduct of the US/UK and allies in those campaigns compared to the IDF. I believe there was much more care taken to avoid civilian casualties, whilst of course there were many I don’t believe they’d target hospitals and schools in the way the IDF has. Indeed a lot of the civilians casualties were indirectly - the result of the toppling of those regimes and the resulting power vacuum which let to bloody insurgencies in which thousands of civilians were killed.

Also, not directly relevant to this thread, I’d point out that the bombing campaign against ISIS (as well as the invasions of Iraq and Afganistan) were not NATO operations (there was a NATO peacekeeping mission following the invasion of Afghanistan). The only reason I point this out is because Russian trolls and their gullible followers like to frame NATO as an aggressor, but that was not the case.


I posted a link further up. It was a report published by a NATO branch looking at the evidence between 2008 and 2014 and talks about Hamas using civilians as human shields as part of “law fare”. It goes some way to explain why Israel is taking the action it is.

There is also a lot of information out there on the extent the IDF are going to in the aim of minimising civilian casualties. Is it enough? Could they do more? It’s bloody difficult when your enemy does not want you to keep the civilian death count down as it helps them politically and publicly (lawfare).
[Post edited 19 Nov 2023 21:39]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:40 - Nov 19 with 3273 viewsredrickstuhaart

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:28 - Nov 19 by giant_stow

eradicate
/ɪˈradɪkeɪt/
verb
destroy completely; put an end to.
"this disease has been eradicated from the world"

Israel is not trying to eradicate Palestinians - surely you can accept that?

I accept I may be getting caught up in a detail, but then again, it seems like quite an important detail to me at least..


They are quite content to eradicate palestinians it seems, in furtherance of their goals of retribution and control of the the lands from river to sea.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:54 - Nov 19 with 3233 viewsNthsuffolkblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:28 - Nov 19 by giant_stow

eradicate
/ɪˈradɪkeɪt/
verb
destroy completely; put an end to.
"this disease has been eradicated from the world"

Israel is not trying to eradicate Palestinians - surely you can accept that?

I accept I may be getting caught up in a detail, but then again, it seems like quite an important detail to me at least..


Can you give one piece of evidence to support the idea that Israel wants to preserve the Palestinians? I have given plenty of their determination to eliminate them. Yes, eradicate, eliminate, exterminate, genocide. The actions they are taking are starving, removing clean water from, and deliberately killing Palestinians.

What evidence have you got that they wish to keep the Palestinian state?

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:59 - Nov 19 with 3218 viewseireblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:17 - Nov 19 by StokieBlue

I'll be honest, that is a huge reply with a lot of references and I simply don't have time to cover it all so I will reply with the time I have available right now so as not to keep you waiting.

Sources

There is too much to quote directly but you certainly did cast doubt on the casualties twice in the same paragraph using the caveat "Hamas sources".

With regards to Biden, he's got to say certain things to keep his home voters onside, he's been doing it all the way through. You cited him saying “But I have no confidence in the number that the Palestinians are using" when I specifically referenced MSF and the UN. Both organisations which don't have vested interests. Saying that Biden has access to more intelligence is fine but you've not given any actual evidence on numbers or how that intelligence is used. Just saying someone is more knowledgeable without any evidence is an appeal to authority fallacy.

Citing covid is rather strange given I clearly referenced no governmental entities and you've even agreed they were roughly in agreement on the numbers. If you concede there is rough agreement then why even mention "if Hamas are to be believed" if it's not to cast doubt on the numbers?

I didn't reference anything about the war on terror or comparisons to other conflicts so I am not sure why you are citing them in your reply to me? However since you want me to respond to as much as possible I think your assumptions are invalid and I will explain why:

You are using linear extrapolation to try and compare casualties (quite distasteful in itself but since we are doing it) and that's flawed method. You need to weight the data by the duration of conflict and the size of the population otherwise it's simply not comparable.

If we do this then:

Population scaling factor = x22

Conflict duration scaling factor = x48 (96 months vs 2 months)

Scaling the Iraq war to the population and duration of the current Gaza conflict gives ~380 casualties (400,000/22/48)

Clearly that is a flawed analysis but it does highlight that if you attempt to measure apples to apples then what has happened in Gaza thus far has been horrific. It does seem like the casualties aren't happening as quickly now so that would also affect the above analysis.

Reporting and evidence from IDF

You've given a very detailed response on this and I can't do a full reply justice at the moment.

With regards to the BBC, just because some things have been proven to be incorrect it doesn't automatically tarnish all future reporting which seemed to be your previous stance (this is a genetic fallacy - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_fallacy). My comments were specifically about the UN school and the latest hospital raid to which we haven't seen any evidence of Hamas bases. It's not right to refer to bases in these places before it has been confirmed.

"Like Bernie Saunders my only temporary solution is a humanitarian pause to allow more civilians to find safe refuge and get in food, water, power and shelter for people."

This simply isn't possible though. There isn't enough space in the Gaza Strip given there have also been attacks in the south and even when they shelter in UN controlled safe buildings those buildings are attacked. I find it hard to believe that the UN allows Hamas to construct bases under their buildings but perhaps I am wrong if evidence can be provided.

I guess in general I am confused by your position. You clearly state that Hamas must be defeated but that the IDF must work within the rules of law. This clearly isn't happening but you've said there can't be a ceasefire. Given this I don't see how the two positions can be squared. Happy for you to expand further on this to correct me if you feel this isn't correct.

SB
[Post edited 19 Nov 2023 15:28]


“Given this I don't see how the two positions can be squared.”

I’ll give that one a go.

After every single Hamas attack, there is a so called proportionate response, hostilities pause, then repeat.

So

1. Hamas needs to be defeated.
2. It is horrific what is happening, I wish there was an easy and simply way to clinically destroy a 20,000 strong army, embedded in a population of 2 Million, without harming civilians.

Stating you think Hamas should be defeated, doesn’t mean you support everything that is happening.

But, can you conceive of a solution, knowing Hamas will be using civilians, to achieve 1 and 2?
Also knowing that Hamas will hide in a civilian population and have used suicide bombers in the past.

What options are there available to achieve 1 and 2.

How would you separate fighters from civilians to create humanitarian areas that Hamas can’t exploit?

Or is the proposition on 8th of October, Hamas should have been engaged in a negotiation.
And Hamas be left to rule over Gaza.

Leave in place an organisation that had survived “proportional” attacks in the past with 200 hundred hostages?

I believe the current “architect” of the 7th of October attack, was a prisoner that was released in a previous exchange. So not sure the idea of giving in to the Hamas request to swap prisoners for hostages has lead to a good outcomes.

There maybe conceivable options for trying to achieve 1 and 2, but unless you have a perfect plan for separation of Hamas, when Hamas don’t want to be separated from civilians, surely all will result in some horrible outcomes.

You can wish the IDF achieve 1, with less civilians deaths.
But that may equally well be a function of what Hamas are prepared to do, or force civilians to do.

A suggestion in this thread was, Isreal should have done a one sided ceasefire and let Hamas continue to control Gaza and attack Isreal.

Leaving in place an organisation that had consistently attacked Isreal, and was promising more of the same, seems to me, wrong, and is just choosing to let the cycle continue, and different people get killed.

Horrible situation.
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How did all this loss of Israeli and Palestinian life arise ? on 23:10 - Nov 19 with 3136 viewsWeWereZombies

How did all this loss of Israeli and Palestinian life arise ? on 21:14 - Nov 19 by Rob88

With all due respect Zombie, I’ve had the displeasure of reading some absolute garbage on this thread, which is why I took umbrage and started calling it out and playing peoples perverse logic back to them. I don’t think I’ll be taking any lessons from some of you lot so you can save the patronising tone.

Even this post stinks of BS.

Let’s just take one example from what you have said. Is it not wildly believed that Hamas was a protest vote against the corruption of the prior incumbent Fatah.

I don’t think the Palestinian people were wanting an Islamic Revolution of Israel. Which is what Hamas want.

Im very fortunate that the silent majority do not buy this BS.


Hamas are not about voting, you seem to have no idea at all about what is going on.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:01 - Nov 20 with 2997 viewsDJR

This statement yesterday from Volker Türk UN High Commissioner for Human Rights is worth reading.

Horrendous Gaza violence must stop

The horrendous events of the past 48 hours in Gaza beggar belief.

The killing of so many people at schools turned shelters, hundreds fleeing for their lives from Al-Shifa Hospital, amid continuing displacement of hundreds of thousands in southern Gaza, are actions which fly in the face of the basic protections civilians must be afforded under international law.

Images purportedly taken in the aftermath of the reported Israeli strike on Al Fakhoura school are horrifying, clearly showing large numbers of women, children and men severely wounded or killed. At least three other schools hosting displaced Palestinians have also been attacked in the past 48 hours.

Israeli military operations have been continuing inside and around Al Shifa hospital. UN colleagues visited the site yesterday, and witnessed first-hand what they described as a ‘death zone’. Medical personnel, patients, and civilians have fled the hospital, ordered to do so by the Israeli military. Hundreds were seen making their way south on foot, at great risk to their lives, health and safety. And to where? Nowhere is safe in Gaza.

In Khan Younis, the Israeli Defense Forces are dropping leaflets demanding residents go to unspecified “recognized shelters”, even as strikes take place across Gaza. Already displaced Palestinians - deprived by extreme restrictions on life-saving assistance - are struggling to meet their basic needs, forced into ever-diminishing, over-crowded, unsanitary unsafe spaces. Irrespective of warnings, Israel is obliged to protect civilians wherever they are.

Rules of international humanitarian law, including the principles of distinction, proportionality and precautions in carrying out the attacks must be strictly adhered to. Failure to adhere to these rules may constitute war crimes.

The pain, dread, and fear etched on the faces of children, women and men is too much to bear. How much more violence, bloodshed and misery will it take before people come to their senses? How many more civilians will be killed?

This must stop.

Humanity must come first. A ceasefire - on humanitarian and human rights grounds - is desperately needed. Now.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:06 - Nov 20 with 2985 viewsgiant_stow

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:54 - Nov 19 by Nthsuffolkblue

Can you give one piece of evidence to support the idea that Israel wants to preserve the Palestinians? I have given plenty of their determination to eliminate them. Yes, eradicate, eliminate, exterminate, genocide. The actions they are taking are starving, removing clean water from, and deliberately killing Palestinians.

What evidence have you got that they wish to keep the Palestinian state?


It still feels like were on different wavelengths here tbh. What evidence do I have that Israel* isn't trying to eradicate 2m+ Palestinians...? That the Israeli Govt haven't murdered 2m+ Palestinians already. ...That they didn't use weapons' of mass destruction. ... That they now risk Israeli solders on the ground, rather than only bomb from relative safety above.

I haven't been talking about the Palestinian state at all. Maybe thats where the cross wires are.

* a plea now: please can we stop referring to 'Israel' making these actions? It's the Israeli govt, or Netanyahu's mob doing this.

Has anyone ever looked at their own postings for last day or so? Oh my... so sorry. Was Ullaa
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:22 - Nov 20 with 2959 viewsNthQldITFC

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:01 - Nov 20 by DJR

This statement yesterday from Volker Türk UN High Commissioner for Human Rights is worth reading.

Horrendous Gaza violence must stop

The horrendous events of the past 48 hours in Gaza beggar belief.

The killing of so many people at schools turned shelters, hundreds fleeing for their lives from Al-Shifa Hospital, amid continuing displacement of hundreds of thousands in southern Gaza, are actions which fly in the face of the basic protections civilians must be afforded under international law.

Images purportedly taken in the aftermath of the reported Israeli strike on Al Fakhoura school are horrifying, clearly showing large numbers of women, children and men severely wounded or killed. At least three other schools hosting displaced Palestinians have also been attacked in the past 48 hours.

Israeli military operations have been continuing inside and around Al Shifa hospital. UN colleagues visited the site yesterday, and witnessed first-hand what they described as a ‘death zone’. Medical personnel, patients, and civilians have fled the hospital, ordered to do so by the Israeli military. Hundreds were seen making their way south on foot, at great risk to their lives, health and safety. And to where? Nowhere is safe in Gaza.

In Khan Younis, the Israeli Defense Forces are dropping leaflets demanding residents go to unspecified “recognized shelters”, even as strikes take place across Gaza. Already displaced Palestinians - deprived by extreme restrictions on life-saving assistance - are struggling to meet their basic needs, forced into ever-diminishing, over-crowded, unsanitary unsafe spaces. Irrespective of warnings, Israel is obliged to protect civilians wherever they are.

Rules of international humanitarian law, including the principles of distinction, proportionality and precautions in carrying out the attacks must be strictly adhered to. Failure to adhere to these rules may constitute war crimes.

The pain, dread, and fear etched on the faces of children, women and men is too much to bear. How much more violence, bloodshed and misery will it take before people come to their senses? How many more civilians will be killed?

This must stop.

Humanity must come first. A ceasefire - on humanitarian and human rights grounds - is desperately needed. Now.


Drawn out mass murder of civilians in revenge for a murderous attack on civilians in revenge for murder, repression, displacement and impoverishment of a people, in compensation for murder, repression, displacement and impoverishment of another people, by another people a lifetime ago...

Any capacity for compromise and negotiation between the insane local leaders has disappeared. The world could stop this appalling, hideous little localised conflict and enforce a two state solution but it chooses not to. We stand by our mates, and we watch, and we do fk all. Very soon we will look back on this and be deeply ashamed of both our actions and inaction.

# WE ARE STEALING THE FUTURE FROM OUR CHILDREN --- WE MUST CHANGE COURSE #
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