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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? 19:54 - Nov 2 with 299516 viewsnoggin

Yeah but Owen Jones...
[Post edited 3 Nov 2023 9:05]

Poll: If KM goes now, will you applaud him when he returns with his new club?

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:41 - Nov 20 with 3994 viewsSuperKieranMcKenna

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:22 - Nov 20 by NthQldITFC

Drawn out mass murder of civilians in revenge for a murderous attack on civilians in revenge for murder, repression, displacement and impoverishment of a people, in compensation for murder, repression, displacement and impoverishment of another people, by another people a lifetime ago...

Any capacity for compromise and negotiation between the insane local leaders has disappeared. The world could stop this appalling, hideous little localised conflict and enforce a two state solution but it chooses not to. We stand by our mates, and we watch, and we do fk all. Very soon we will look back on this and be deeply ashamed of both our actions and inaction.


“ Very soon we will look back on this and be deeply ashamed of both our actions and inaction”

Will we though?

I assume by ‘we’ you mean the UK and its leaders? I have to disagree, we’ve backed Israel for 70+ years, this is not the first time they’ve caused mass civilian deaths. These are actions we’d rightly condemn and rattle the sabre were it Russia. However, the world is a complex place, and I believe the US and UK will continue largely unconditional backing of Israel, putting geopolitical concerns above humanitarian ones.

I also think it will be back to status quo after this latest conflict- the West will be too preoccupied with elections and internal economic issues. It will potentially be even worse if Trump comes to power given his previous actions in moving the embassy. He’ll also take a hardline view on Iran, which could in turn embolden them to increase attacks on civilian shipping and US bases in the region.
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I got carried away with my argument and forgot to change the thread title..again on 09:52 - Nov 20 with 3945 viewsWeWereZombies

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:06 - Nov 20 by giant_stow

It still feels like were on different wavelengths here tbh. What evidence do I have that Israel* isn't trying to eradicate 2m+ Palestinians...? That the Israeli Govt haven't murdered 2m+ Palestinians already. ...That they didn't use weapons' of mass destruction. ... That they now risk Israeli solders on the ground, rather than only bomb from relative safety above.

I haven't been talking about the Palestinian state at all. Maybe thats where the cross wires are.

* a plea now: please can we stop referring to 'Israel' making these actions? It's the Israeli govt, or Netanyahu's mob doing this.


I think you are right in saying that we need to be careful about our language. We should not demonise the state of Israel. It is a valuable project and, like the United States or Germany or Italy, a young country that is, unlike the United States or Germany or Italy where we can number their age by a couple of centuries, only decades old.

But we do have to be clear that the current administration of Israel has been the perpetrator of policies that mitigate against sections of the populace (not just Arabs but Christians and secular Jews too), that facilitates robbery and murder and does little or nothing to punish those crimes. Unlike Hamas it wears the cloak of democracy but it will shed that cloak when it needs to win votes from extremists.

I worry that, if the current hostage release negotiations fail or if no significant Hamas base is located or if Hamas is not eradicated, if instead it is emboldened and increases it reign of terror over Palestinians locally and Israelis generally, that Israel could suffer something akin to a civil war and descend into the mess that Lebanon is in.
[Post edited 20 Nov 2023 9:53]

Poll: What was in Wes Burns' imaginary cup of tea ?

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I got carried away with my argument and forgot to change the thread title..again on 10:01 - Nov 20 with 3931 viewsgiant_stow

I got carried away with my argument and forgot to change the thread title..again on 09:52 - Nov 20 by WeWereZombies

I think you are right in saying that we need to be careful about our language. We should not demonise the state of Israel. It is a valuable project and, like the United States or Germany or Italy, a young country that is, unlike the United States or Germany or Italy where we can number their age by a couple of centuries, only decades old.

But we do have to be clear that the current administration of Israel has been the perpetrator of policies that mitigate against sections of the populace (not just Arabs but Christians and secular Jews too), that facilitates robbery and murder and does little or nothing to punish those crimes. Unlike Hamas it wears the cloak of democracy but it will shed that cloak when it needs to win votes from extremists.

I worry that, if the current hostage release negotiations fail or if no significant Hamas base is located or if Hamas is not eradicated, if instead it is emboldened and increases it reign of terror over Palestinians locally and Israelis generally, that Israel could suffer something akin to a civil war and descend into the mess that Lebanon is in.
[Post edited 20 Nov 2023 9:53]


Great post.

Has anyone ever looked at their own postings for last day or so? Oh my... so sorry. Was Ullaa
Poll: A clasmate tells your son their going to beat him up in the playground after sch

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:43 - Nov 20 with 3890 viewsNthQldITFC

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:41 - Nov 20 by SuperKieranMcKenna

“ Very soon we will look back on this and be deeply ashamed of both our actions and inaction”

Will we though?

I assume by ‘we’ you mean the UK and its leaders? I have to disagree, we’ve backed Israel for 70+ years, this is not the first time they’ve caused mass civilian deaths. These are actions we’d rightly condemn and rattle the sabre were it Russia. However, the world is a complex place, and I believe the US and UK will continue largely unconditional backing of Israel, putting geopolitical concerns above humanitarian ones.

I also think it will be back to status quo after this latest conflict- the West will be too preoccupied with elections and internal economic issues. It will potentially be even worse if Trump comes to power given his previous actions in moving the embassy. He’ll also take a hardline view on Iran, which could in turn embolden them to increase attacks on civilian shipping and US bases in the region.


I mean humanity. I try not to think in terms of national entities too much because it's stupid and it's one of the biggest carriers of the poison that makes us such a idiotic, dogmatic, suicidal species. This applies to environmental issues too. We're f****** mad.

# WE ARE STEALING THE FUTURE FROM OUR CHILDREN --- WE MUST CHANGE COURSE #
Poll: It's driving me nuts

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How did all this loss of Israeli and Palestinian life arise ? on 15:27 - Nov 20 with 3784 viewsRob88

How did all this loss of Israeli and Palestinian life arise ? on 23:10 - Nov 19 by WeWereZombies

Hamas are not about voting, you seem to have no idea at all about what is going on.


You - “How did Hamas arrive in a position of control over Gaza?”

Me - “Palestinians voted as a protest vote against Fatah corruption”

You - “Hamas are not about voting”

May I enlighten you, have a read about the 2006 elections.

This is just silly now, I’m leaving it here as it is a complete waste of time. Basic facts, documented history observed by the world. If I said the grass was green you would tell me it wasn’t.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 18:24 - Nov 20 with 3717 viewsDarth_Koont

This is very good from The Elders.

https://theelders.org/news/dear-president-biden-elders-open-letter-israel-and-pa

The letter in full:

"Dear President Biden

You have a historic opportunity to help end the Israel-Palestine conflict - permanently.

As polarisation increases, the world needs you to set out a vision for peace. That vision must give hope to those who reject extremism and want the violence to end.

We urge you to do two things: set out a serious peace plan, and help build a new coalition for peace to deliver it.

We understand you want to help make Israelis safe. We share that objective, and have condemned the horrific Hamas attacks of 7 October. We share too your commitment to the Palestinian people’s right to self-determination. Palestinian and Israeli lives are of equal worth.

Destroying Gaza and killing civilians are not making Israelis safe. These actions will breed more terrorism, across the region and beyond. There is no military solution to this conflict.

The violence is already feeding antisemitism and islamophobia, including in the USA. It undermines your other objectives in the Middle East, Ukraine and elsewhere.

US credibility and interests across the world are at stake.

Israeli policies of expanding illegal settlements in the West Bank, and normalising relations with Arab countries while bypassing the Palestinians, have not made Israelis safe. Successive US governments have been complicit in these failures.

The only way to make Israelis and Palestinians safe is a lasting political solution. It must guarantee the security of Israel, whose people remain under threat. And it must meet Palestinians’ legitimate aspirations for their own state. Long denied during 56 years of occupation, these hopes are fading fast, as innocent Palestinians die in the rubble of Gaza and the stolen lands of the West Bank.

For too long the world has spoken of a two-state solution while allowing Israel to build a one-state reality. This has suited extremists in Israel and Palestine who deny the other country’s right to exist. It is time to end the empty rhetoric, and implement a serious peace plan that undermines extremists.

This plan should answer who runs Gaza next, end Israel’s accelerating annexation of Palestinian land, and address Israel’s legitimate security concerns. It must recognise the equal rights of Palestinians and Israelis, and be rooted in international law, including the UN Charter and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

Israelis and Palestinians will not end this conflict on their own. The history is too complicated, the politics too polarised, the compromises required too difficult. But peace cannot be imposed from outside. It requires bold leaders with legitimacy and credibility among their peoples, and a commitment to two states living together peacefully. Those leaders are not currently in power in Palestine or Israel.

The USA cannot bring peace to the Middle East on its own. You can help build a new coalition for peace, including countries from the region and Europe who want a just settlement. This coalition can restore a political horizon, and rebuild the trust needed for dialogue.

Progress will not be easy, or quick. Years of mistrust and violence have left the two peoples far from readiness to negotiate. A comprehensive agreement will take years. It will demand enormous political courage from all leaders, in the face of significant domestic opposition.

Now is the time to start. A serious peace plan is not a distraction from resolving the current crisis; it is a prerequisite. There is a slender opportunity to build on yesterday’s UN Security Council Resolution. But progress is more likely if that is seen as the first step towards a lasting peace, not just de-escalation.

De-escalation is not enough. We cannot go back to managing the conflict. It will erupt again and again with more death and misery. The conflict must be resolved, permanently, through negotiation.

President Biden, you said last month that American leadership is what holds the world together. This conflict is tearing the world apart. We have spoken to Israelis whose families were murdered and taken hostage, and Gazans suffering a humanitarian catastrophe. We recognise their pain, anger and fear. We encourage you and Secretary Blinken to continue working to release Israeli hostages, and end the collective punishment of Palestinian civilians.

The Elders learned from our founder, Nelson Mandela, that the road from hatred to forgiveness can be long and difficult. Some will never walk it. But the majority of Palestinians and Israelis want to live in peace, not endure yet more violence. Please help them find the path to peace.

History will never forget your leadership if you do."

Signed by the Elders:

Mary Robinson, former President of Ireland and Chair of The Elders

Ban Ki-moon, former UN Secretary-General and Deputy Chair of The Elders

Graça Machel, Founder of the Graça Machel Trust, co-founder and Deputy Chair of The Elders

Gro Harlem Brundtland, former Prime Minister of Norway and former Director-General of the WHO

Helen Clark, former Prime Minister of New Zealand and former UN Development Programme Administrator

Elbegdorj Tsakhia, former President and Prime Minister of Mongolia

Zeid Ra'ad Al Hussein, former UN High Commissioner for Human Rights

Hina Jilani, Advocate of the Supreme Court of Pakistan and co-chair of the Taskforce on Justice

Ellen Johnson Sirleaf, former President of Liberia and Nobel Peace Laureate

Ricardo Lagos, former President of Chile

Juan Manuel Santos, former President of Colombia and Nobel Peace Laureate

Ernesto Zedillo, former President of Mexico
[Post edited 20 Nov 2023 18:27]

Pronouns: He/Him

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 19:06 - Nov 20 with 3659 viewsnoggin

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 18:24 - Nov 20 by Darth_Koont

This is very good from The Elders.

https://theelders.org/news/dear-president-biden-elders-open-letter-israel-and-pa

The letter in full:

"Dear President Biden

You have a historic opportunity to help end the Israel-Palestine conflict - permanently.

As polarisation increases, the world needs you to set out a vision for peace. That vision must give hope to those who reject extremism and want the violence to end.

We urge you to do two things: set out a serious peace plan, and help build a new coalition for peace to deliver it.

We understand you want to help make Israelis safe. We share that objective, and have condemned the horrific Hamas attacks of 7 October. We share too your commitment to the Palestinian people’s right to self-determination. Palestinian and Israeli lives are of equal worth.

Destroying Gaza and killing civilians are not making Israelis safe. These actions will breed more terrorism, across the region and beyond. There is no military solution to this conflict.

The violence is already feeding antisemitism and islamophobia, including in the USA. It undermines your other objectives in the Middle East, Ukraine and elsewhere.

US credibility and interests across the world are at stake.

Israeli policies of expanding illegal settlements in the West Bank, and normalising relations with Arab countries while bypassing the Palestinians, have not made Israelis safe. Successive US governments have been complicit in these failures.

The only way to make Israelis and Palestinians safe is a lasting political solution. It must guarantee the security of Israel, whose people remain under threat. And it must meet Palestinians’ legitimate aspirations for their own state. Long denied during 56 years of occupation, these hopes are fading fast, as innocent Palestinians die in the rubble of Gaza and the stolen lands of the West Bank.

For too long the world has spoken of a two-state solution while allowing Israel to build a one-state reality. This has suited extremists in Israel and Palestine who deny the other country’s right to exist. It is time to end the empty rhetoric, and implement a serious peace plan that undermines extremists.

This plan should answer who runs Gaza next, end Israel’s accelerating annexation of Palestinian land, and address Israel’s legitimate security concerns. It must recognise the equal rights of Palestinians and Israelis, and be rooted in international law, including the UN Charter and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

Israelis and Palestinians will not end this conflict on their own. The history is too complicated, the politics too polarised, the compromises required too difficult. But peace cannot be imposed from outside. It requires bold leaders with legitimacy and credibility among their peoples, and a commitment to two states living together peacefully. Those leaders are not currently in power in Palestine or Israel.

The USA cannot bring peace to the Middle East on its own. You can help build a new coalition for peace, including countries from the region and Europe who want a just settlement. This coalition can restore a political horizon, and rebuild the trust needed for dialogue.

Progress will not be easy, or quick. Years of mistrust and violence have left the two peoples far from readiness to negotiate. A comprehensive agreement will take years. It will demand enormous political courage from all leaders, in the face of significant domestic opposition.

Now is the time to start. A serious peace plan is not a distraction from resolving the current crisis; it is a prerequisite. There is a slender opportunity to build on yesterday’s UN Security Council Resolution. But progress is more likely if that is seen as the first step towards a lasting peace, not just de-escalation.

De-escalation is not enough. We cannot go back to managing the conflict. It will erupt again and again with more death and misery. The conflict must be resolved, permanently, through negotiation.

President Biden, you said last month that American leadership is what holds the world together. This conflict is tearing the world apart. We have spoken to Israelis whose families were murdered and taken hostage, and Gazans suffering a humanitarian catastrophe. We recognise their pain, anger and fear. We encourage you and Secretary Blinken to continue working to release Israeli hostages, and end the collective punishment of Palestinian civilians.

The Elders learned from our founder, Nelson Mandela, that the road from hatred to forgiveness can be long and difficult. Some will never walk it. But the majority of Palestinians and Israelis want to live in peace, not endure yet more violence. Please help them find the path to peace.

History will never forget your leadership if you do."

Signed by the Elders:

Mary Robinson, former President of Ireland and Chair of The Elders

Ban Ki-moon, former UN Secretary-General and Deputy Chair of The Elders

Graça Machel, Founder of the Graça Machel Trust, co-founder and Deputy Chair of The Elders

Gro Harlem Brundtland, former Prime Minister of Norway and former Director-General of the WHO

Helen Clark, former Prime Minister of New Zealand and former UN Development Programme Administrator

Elbegdorj Tsakhia, former President and Prime Minister of Mongolia

Zeid Ra'ad Al Hussein, former UN High Commissioner for Human Rights

Hina Jilani, Advocate of the Supreme Court of Pakistan and co-chair of the Taskforce on Justice

Ellen Johnson Sirleaf, former President of Liberia and Nobel Peace Laureate

Ricardo Lagos, former President of Chile

Juan Manuel Santos, former President of Colombia and Nobel Peace Laureate

Ernesto Zedillo, former President of Mexico
[Post edited 20 Nov 2023 18:27]


Bunch of lefties. Much better to destroy Gaza and hope for the best after that.

Poll: If KM goes now, will you applaud him when he returns with his new club?

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How did all this loss of Israeli and Palestinian life arise ? on 20:11 - Nov 20 with 3594 viewsWeWereZombies

How did all this loss of Israeli and Palestinian life arise ? on 15:27 - Nov 20 by Rob88

You - “How did Hamas arrive in a position of control over Gaza?”

Me - “Palestinians voted as a protest vote against Fatah corruption”

You - “Hamas are not about voting”

May I enlighten you, have a read about the 2006 elections.

This is just silly now, I’m leaving it here as it is a complete waste of time. Basic facts, documented history observed by the world. If I said the grass was green you would tell me it wasn’t.


Seventeen years ago - well that seems perfectly democratic and not at all silly as a reference point....

Good, fecking, grief !

Yep, there really is no point in us trying to interact constructively.

Poll: What was in Wes Burns' imaginary cup of tea ?

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 08:37 - Nov 21 with 3491 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 19:06 - Nov 20 by noggin

Bunch of lefties. Much better to destroy Gaza and hope for the best after that.


Indeed.

Complete contrast to those views about what is and isn’t the way forward coming from UK politicians, pundits and people more generally who showed little to no interest or concern for both Palestinians and Israelis before October 7th.

What we get instead from them is gaslighting that October 7th now defines the conflict and seemingly justifies the long-term view that Palestinian lives just aren’t that important. Of course, anyone dismayed at our largely uncritical support for Israel and cover for apartheid and oppression over the years pretty much knew that already.

Pronouns: He/Him

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 08:45 - Nov 21 with 3475 viewsDJR

Interesting article on how the dead are counted in Gaza, although as it comes from the BBC some may not believe it.

It indicates that the figures are based on those who end up in hospital morgues. The article is five days old since when there have not been daily updates, presumably because of the closure of hospitals and the difficulties of reaching victims.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67347201

The article repeats the following which I heard a couple of weeks ago.

"A senior US official said the death toll was likely to be greater than the numbers being reported.

"We think they're very high, frankly," Barbara Leaf, assistant Secretary of State for Near Eastern Affairs, told a House Foreign Affairs Committee, "and it could be that they're even higher than are being cited."

There will presumably be many buried under buildings, or not able to be taken to hospital because of the ongoing conflict, and I came across something yesterday which suggested around 6,500 missing people.

And, whatever the numbers, the horrific thing is the very high percentage of children and women, who cannot be regarded as combatants. I am not aware of any conflict with such a high percentage.
[Post edited 21 Nov 2023 9:01]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 08:51 - Nov 21 with 3454 viewsDJR

The following Tweet needs to be seen in the light of the fact that prior to the conflict 500 aid trucks entered Gaza daily when needs were much less than now.

[Post edited 21 Nov 2023 10:19]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:33 - Nov 21 with 3382 viewsStokieBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 16:31 - Nov 19 by GlasgowBlue

Just a quick reply whilst waiting for the Mrs. But this stood out for me ,which I find incredibly annoying.

“ I didn't reference anything about the war on terror or comparisons to other conflicts so I am not sure why you are citing them in your reply to me? “

You didn’t. But NthSuffolkBlue did, and it was my reply to him that you jumped on and took one line about “if Hamas are to believed” and stripped the rest of that reply out of all context. So I put the context in.

That’s it from me for the day.


Just to quickly return to this debate, you cited Biden when saying we should doubt the casualty figures but it seems his own administration don't agree and actually believe the number of deaths to be higher than what is being published:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67347201

The article also echoes my point that Biden provided no evidence for his doubt.

Given this coupled with the independent estimates from organisations like the UN and MSF which are broadly similar, I don't think doubt should be cast on the numbers being cited.

SB

Avatar - M51 - The Whirlpool Galaxy - Taken on 29th April 2024

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:59 - Nov 21 with 3334 viewsDJR

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 08:45 - Nov 21 by DJR

Interesting article on how the dead are counted in Gaza, although as it comes from the BBC some may not believe it.

It indicates that the figures are based on those who end up in hospital morgues. The article is five days old since when there have not been daily updates, presumably because of the closure of hospitals and the difficulties of reaching victims.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67347201

The article repeats the following which I heard a couple of weeks ago.

"A senior US official said the death toll was likely to be greater than the numbers being reported.

"We think they're very high, frankly," Barbara Leaf, assistant Secretary of State for Near Eastern Affairs, told a House Foreign Affairs Committee, "and it could be that they're even higher than are being cited."

There will presumably be many buried under buildings, or not able to be taken to hospital because of the ongoing conflict, and I came across something yesterday which suggested around 6,500 missing people.

And, whatever the numbers, the horrific thing is the very high percentage of children and women, who cannot be regarded as combatants. I am not aware of any conflict with such a high percentage.
[Post edited 21 Nov 2023 9:01]


And let's not forget there are Israeli children currently in danger. This from the Guardian.

"The Times of Israel reports that another protest is taking place in Tel Aviv, where Hadas Calderon, the mother of two children abducted by Hamas on 7 October, is protesting outside the IDF headquarters in Israel’s capital.

“We must not miss this chance for a deal,” she told reporters. “I call on all the mothers to come to the entrance to the Kirya [the name of the IDF HQ], and to stand alongside me. We must bring them home.”

Her children Erez, 12, and Sahar, 16 are believed to be in Gaza, among the 30 teenagers and young children thought to have been kidnapped.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:10 - Nov 21 with 3296 viewsDJR

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:59 - Nov 21 by DJR

And let's not forget there are Israeli children currently in danger. This from the Guardian.

"The Times of Israel reports that another protest is taking place in Tel Aviv, where Hadas Calderon, the mother of two children abducted by Hamas on 7 October, is protesting outside the IDF headquarters in Israel’s capital.

“We must not miss this chance for a deal,” she told reporters. “I call on all the mothers to come to the entrance to the Kirya [the name of the IDF HQ], and to stand alongside me. We must bring them home.”

Her children Erez, 12, and Sahar, 16 are believed to be in Gaza, among the 30 teenagers and young children thought to have been kidnapped.


Interesting passages in the Guardian which might indicate Netanyahu's reluctance for a deal, Levy being Daniel Levy a former Israeli peace negotiator.

“My sense is that the Israelis are always trying to get another day, and another day, and another day of operations before agreeing to a deal,” Levy said. “Each day, they hope that they’ve won the lottery and killed [Hamas leaders] Mohammed Deif or Yahya Sinwar and that they will be able to point to a major military success.”

One reason for Netanyahu’s resistance to a deal may be his understanding that once the war comes to an end, his own position will come under far more urgent scrutiny because of a wide consensus that the failure to protect civilians near the Gaza border was his responsibility. “He is almost certainly toast the morning after the war is over,” said Levy. “The same is probably true of the military leadership, so they have not played the moderating role that they might ordinarily be expected to.”
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A little more hope for hostage release and a ceasefire this morning on 11:16 - Nov 21 with 3267 viewsWeWereZombies

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:59 - Nov 21 by DJR

And let's not forget there are Israeli children currently in danger. This from the Guardian.

"The Times of Israel reports that another protest is taking place in Tel Aviv, where Hadas Calderon, the mother of two children abducted by Hamas on 7 October, is protesting outside the IDF headquarters in Israel’s capital.

“We must not miss this chance for a deal,” she told reporters. “I call on all the mothers to come to the entrance to the Kirya [the name of the IDF HQ], and to stand alongside me. We must bring them home.”

Her children Erez, 12, and Sahar, 16 are believed to be in Gaza, among the 30 teenagers and young children thought to have been kidnapped.


Echoing yours and Stokie's previous posts about the likelihood that the BBC and United States administration are unlikely to be inflating casualty figures, or providing other support for Hamas propaganda (although I could make a case that Hamas also want to keep casualty and death numbers low because many Palestinians will blame them) the latest on hostage negotiations from Frank Gardner, who himself has good reason to be circumspect in these matters:

'But sources indirectly involved in the negotiations are more optimistic than ever that between 50 to 70 Israeli hostages could soon be released. This would be in exchange, they say, for some limited pauses in the fighting over a period of three to five days, as well as an increase in humanitarian aid for Gaza, including fuel, and the release of a small number of Palestinian prisoners held in Israeli jails.

Holding everything up are the practical logistics involved in this potential hostage release.

It takes time for messages to get passed from Doha, where negotiations have been taking place, to Gaza, where Hamas’s military commanders are fighting a war.

There is also the task of gathering up hostages from different locations, many of them presumed to be in underground tunnels and some held by militant from groups other than Hamas.'

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67481139 @09:53
[Post edited 21 Nov 2023 11:17]

Poll: What was in Wes Burns' imaginary cup of tea ?

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:34 - Nov 21 with 3229 viewsDJR

Here's yesterday's update from the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs. It was there that I read 6,500 people reported missing, including 4,400 children, presumably many trapped under buildings.

https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-reported-impac
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:25 - Nov 21 with 3168 viewsWeWereZombies

Another addition to Mo Salah's words of peace shortly after this conflict broke out:

"Football is powerful way to demonstrate that the Palestinian people, despite the challenges they face, are human beings, that they have ambitions, dreams and talents."

From https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67482305

Poll: What was in Wes Burns' imaginary cup of tea ?

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:26 - Nov 21 with 3120 viewsDJR

Given the news emerging this morning, this looks like a positive development, hopefully involving a release of some of the hostages, and a truce of some sort.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:41 - Nov 21 with 3095 viewsDJR

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:25 - Nov 21 by WeWereZombies

Another addition to Mo Salah's words of peace shortly after this conflict broke out:

"Football is powerful way to demonstrate that the Palestinian people, despite the challenges they face, are human beings, that they have ambitions, dreams and talents."

From https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67482305


There was a item on the World Service about this.

There was another news item which said that the coach of the team, a Tunisian, wouldn't be allowed back into the country after the game because foreigners had been banned since the conflict began.

Interesting to note that our own Cameron Burgess and Massimo Luongo are likely to be involved in tonight's game, and that there will be a donation from the players and Australian FA towards humanitarian aid.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:53 - Nov 21 with 3074 viewsWeWereZombies

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:41 - Nov 21 by DJR

There was a item on the World Service about this.

There was another news item which said that the coach of the team, a Tunisian, wouldn't be allowed back into the country after the game because foreigners had been banned since the conflict began.

Interesting to note that our own Cameron Burgess and Massimo Luongo are likely to be involved in tonight's game, and that there will be a donation from the players and Australian FA towards humanitarian aid.


Luongo and Burgess still on the bench as Australia go in at half time leading 1-0 but with only an excellent point blank save from Ryan to deny Seyam in injury time.

Poll: What was in Wes Burns' imaginary cup of tea ?

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:39 - Nov 21 with 2996 viewsDarth_Koont

Scottish parliament calls for ceasefire. Credit to Scottish Labour for not following Starmer’s line.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-67475358

This, along with Yousaf requesting recognition of the state of Palestine, will mean very little on its own. But it’s relatively small steps like this that will shift the current UK pro-Israeli government position towards more actual support of the millions of civilians caught up in the cycle of violence.

Pronouns: He/Him

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:53 - Nov 21 with 2976 viewsDJR

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:39 - Nov 21 by Darth_Koont

Scottish parliament calls for ceasefire. Credit to Scottish Labour for not following Starmer’s line.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-67475358

This, along with Yousaf requesting recognition of the state of Palestine, will mean very little on its own. But it’s relatively small steps like this that will shift the current UK pro-Israeli government position towards more actual support of the millions of civilians caught up in the cycle of violence.


It is to Scottish Labour's credit but no doubt Douglas Murray will think of Anas Sarwar what he said about Humza Yousaf.

“He’s become the First Minister of Gaza, or an ambassador for Gaza, or something like that.”

“But people like Humza Yousaf, I say it carefully, have infiltrated our system."
[Post edited 21 Nov 2023 17:55]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:57 - Nov 21 with 2956 viewsBlueschev

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:53 - Nov 21 by DJR

It is to Scottish Labour's credit but no doubt Douglas Murray will think of Anas Sarwar what he said about Humza Yousaf.

“He’s become the First Minister of Gaza, or an ambassador for Gaza, or something like that.”

“But people like Humza Yousaf, I say it carefully, have infiltrated our system."
[Post edited 21 Nov 2023 17:55]


Did he actually say that? He's a bigoted hypocrite, with his phoney 'free speech' foundation or whatever it is.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 18:06 - Nov 21 with 2926 viewsGlasgowBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:57 - Nov 21 by Blueschev

Did he actually say that? He's a bigoted hypocrite, with his phoney 'free speech' foundation or whatever it is.


If he said that then it's racist.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 18:06 - Nov 21 with 2926 viewsDJR

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:57 - Nov 21 by Blueschev

Did he actually say that? He's a bigoted hypocrite, with his phoney 'free speech' foundation or whatever it is.


He certainly did (and I mentioned it on a post when it happened). He even called Yousaf's wife a nasty piece of work. But it got very little publicity because Islamophobia rarely does in this country.

https://www.asianimage.co.uk/news/23914854.douglas-murrays-racist-humza-yousaf-c

GMB host Adil Ray commented: “Why is this not bigger news? This is one of the most racist things ever said about a major leading minister.

“Murray works for some of the biggest media companies in the world. Until this stops, nothing stops"

“We can’t complain about street chants if the media pays for this.”
[Post edited 21 Nov 2023 18:27]
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