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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? 19:54 - Nov 2 with 257365 viewsnoggin

Yeah but Owen Jones...
[Post edited 3 Nov 2023 9:05]

Poll: Which team thread should I participate in?

3
Never say never on 10:19 - Dec 17 with 2635 viewsDJR

Never say never on 14:36 - Dec 15 by Blueschev

If National Unity are centrists then there really is no hope.


Quite.

As it is, recent polling indicates that National Unity is the beneficiary of anti-Netanyahu sentiment. And with it being part of the unity government, and with it having two members in the war cabinet, it is difficult to see any change of approach with a change of government.

That polling indicates a hardening of opinion more generally, with the two left wing parties, Labour and Meretz predicted to get no seats in the Knesset.

And even the more moderate parties appear to be taking a hard line, with the Labour President of Israel, Isaac Herzog, dismissing talk of a two state solution, and opposition leader, Yair Lapid, ruling out the PA having any role in Gaza.

And this from Gideon Levy in Haaretz a couple of days ago reflects my impression of a sea change of opinion in Israel.

"We've never before had a war like this, a war of complete consensus, a war of total silence, a war of blind support; a war without objection, without protest, without refusal to serve, without opposition, neither in the beginning or in the middle. A unanimous war, with wall-to-wall approval – excluding the Arab citizens of the state, who have been prohibited from objecting – and without question marks or even any doubts."

All of this merely confirms my view that a two state solution is for the birds.
[Post edited 17 Dec 2023 10:22]
1
Never say never on 10:46 - Dec 17 with 2573 viewsNthQldITFC

Never say never on 10:19 - Dec 17 by DJR

Quite.

As it is, recent polling indicates that National Unity is the beneficiary of anti-Netanyahu sentiment. And with it being part of the unity government, and with it having two members in the war cabinet, it is difficult to see any change of approach with a change of government.

That polling indicates a hardening of opinion more generally, with the two left wing parties, Labour and Meretz predicted to get no seats in the Knesset.

And even the more moderate parties appear to be taking a hard line, with the Labour President of Israel, Isaac Herzog, dismissing talk of a two state solution, and opposition leader, Yair Lapid, ruling out the PA having any role in Gaza.

And this from Gideon Levy in Haaretz a couple of days ago reflects my impression of a sea change of opinion in Israel.

"We've never before had a war like this, a war of complete consensus, a war of total silence, a war of blind support; a war without objection, without protest, without refusal to serve, without opposition, neither in the beginning or in the middle. A unanimous war, with wall-to-wall approval – excluding the Arab citizens of the state, who have been prohibited from objecting – and without question marks or even any doubts."

All of this merely confirms my view that a two state solution is for the birds.
[Post edited 17 Dec 2023 10:22]


"We've never before had a war like this, a war of complete consensus, a war of total silence, a war of blind support; a war without objection, without protest, without refusal to serve, without opposition, neither in the beginning or in the middle. A unanimous war, with wall-to-wall approval – excluding the Arab citizens of the state, who have been prohibited from objecting – and without question marks or even any doubts."

I know nothing of this person or that organ, so a completely unloaded question: Is there any irony intended in that quote?

# WE ARE STEALING THE FUTURE FROM OUR CHILDREN --- WE MUST CHANGE COURSE #
Poll: It's driving me nuts

0
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:47 - Dec 17 with 2561 viewsStokieBlue

If anyone needs further evidence of how indiscriminate the killing is by the IDF then this story should highlight it:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/16/idf-says-hostages-it-killed-were-b

"One of the men was carrying a stick with a white cloth tied to it and all had removed their shirts. Spotting the three, an Israeli soldier on a rooftop, however, opened fire on the men, shouting “Terrorists!”."

Literally gunning down people carrying white flags and no concealed devices (bare chests) rather than working out if they are combatants. In this case they were 3 Israeli hostages.

SB

Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula

3
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:51 - Dec 17 with 2553 viewsredrickstuhaart

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:47 - Dec 17 by StokieBlue

If anyone needs further evidence of how indiscriminate the killing is by the IDF then this story should highlight it:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/16/idf-says-hostages-it-killed-were-b

"One of the men was carrying a stick with a white cloth tied to it and all had removed their shirts. Spotting the three, an Israeli soldier on a rooftop, however, opened fire on the men, shouting “Terrorists!”."

Literally gunning down people carrying white flags and no concealed devices (bare chests) rather than working out if they are combatants. In this case they were 3 Israeli hostages.

SB


It is no surprise. It has been indiscriminate from the start and Israel has been stringing the US and everyone else along claiming otherwise. Embarrassing that supposedly decent and indepedently minded nations such as ours have been cajoled into accepting those deceptions and are still not making a real fuss.
7
Never say never on 11:01 - Dec 17 with 2528 viewsWeWereZombies

Never say never on 10:46 - Dec 17 by NthQldITFC

"We've never before had a war like this, a war of complete consensus, a war of total silence, a war of blind support; a war without objection, without protest, without refusal to serve, without opposition, neither in the beginning or in the middle. A unanimous war, with wall-to-wall approval – excluding the Arab citizens of the state, who have been prohibited from objecting – and without question marks or even any doubts."

I know nothing of this person or that organ, so a completely unloaded question: Is there any irony intended in that quote?


I think you should take it for what it is - a statement that following the atrocity on the seventh of October Israel was united in grief and a determination to root out terrorism but there are now many voices that deplore the way that the Israeli Defence Force and their extremist controlling regime are carrying out genocide.

Again we have to take our hats off to France for their leadership in providing an international voice of objection:

'France has joined the calls for an "immediate and durable" ceasefire in the Israel-Gaza war.

The country's foreign minister, Catherine Colonna said Paris is "deeply concerned" over the situation in the territory, the AFP news agency reports.

"Too many civilians are being killed," Colonna added, after as she met her Israeli counterpart Eli Cohen in Tel Aviv.

She stressed that the victims of Hamas's 7 October attack should also not be forgotten.'

From https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67732895 at 09:16

Poll: How will we get fourteen points from the last five games ?

3
Never say never on 11:04 - Dec 17 with 2516 viewsredrickstuhaart

Never say never on 11:01 - Dec 17 by WeWereZombies

I think you should take it for what it is - a statement that following the atrocity on the seventh of October Israel was united in grief and a determination to root out terrorism but there are now many voices that deplore the way that the Israeli Defence Force and their extremist controlling regime are carrying out genocide.

Again we have to take our hats off to France for their leadership in providing an international voice of objection:

'France has joined the calls for an "immediate and durable" ceasefire in the Israel-Gaza war.

The country's foreign minister, Catherine Colonna said Paris is "deeply concerned" over the situation in the territory, the AFP news agency reports.

"Too many civilians are being killed," Colonna added, after as she met her Israeli counterpart Eli Cohen in Tel Aviv.

She stressed that the victims of Hamas's 7 October attack should also not be forgotten.'

From https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67732895 at 09:16


They are quite happy to kill civilians. Flattening the place and cowing the population into submission was always the plan.
0
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:15 - Dec 17 with 2483 viewsleitrimblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:47 - Dec 17 by StokieBlue

If anyone needs further evidence of how indiscriminate the killing is by the IDF then this story should highlight it:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/16/idf-says-hostages-it-killed-were-b

"One of the men was carrying a stick with a white cloth tied to it and all had removed their shirts. Spotting the three, an Israeli soldier on a rooftop, however, opened fire on the men, shouting “Terrorists!”."

Literally gunning down people carrying white flags and no concealed devices (bare chests) rather than working out if they are combatants. In this case they were 3 Israeli hostages.

SB


Though it's obviously absolutely awful for the 3 innocent men involved and heartbreaking for their families, this story really does give an indication of the indiscriminate nature of the killing going on inside Gaza.
If you are barechested isreali hostages, carrying a white flag and the IDF shout terrorist and gun you down what chance do innocent women and children have inside Gaza?
3
Never say never on 11:16 - Dec 17 with 2479 viewsNthQldITFC

Never say never on 11:01 - Dec 17 by WeWereZombies

I think you should take it for what it is - a statement that following the atrocity on the seventh of October Israel was united in grief and a determination to root out terrorism but there are now many voices that deplore the way that the Israeli Defence Force and their extremist controlling regime are carrying out genocide.

Again we have to take our hats off to France for their leadership in providing an international voice of objection:

'France has joined the calls for an "immediate and durable" ceasefire in the Israel-Gaza war.

The country's foreign minister, Catherine Colonna said Paris is "deeply concerned" over the situation in the territory, the AFP news agency reports.

"Too many civilians are being killed," Colonna added, after as she met her Israeli counterpart Eli Cohen in Tel Aviv.

She stressed that the victims of Hamas's 7 October attack should also not be forgotten.'

From https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67732895 at 09:16


So it's all deep, dark irony then. I should have known from the prohibited Arab citizens bit really, but it's hard to tell real right wing propaganda from satire these days!

# WE ARE STEALING THE FUTURE FROM OUR CHILDREN --- WE MUST CHANGE COURSE #
Poll: It's driving me nuts

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Never say never on 11:20 - Dec 17 with 2465 viewsDJR

Never say never on 10:46 - Dec 17 by NthQldITFC

"We've never before had a war like this, a war of complete consensus, a war of total silence, a war of blind support; a war without objection, without protest, without refusal to serve, without opposition, neither in the beginning or in the middle. A unanimous war, with wall-to-wall approval – excluding the Arab citizens of the state, who have been prohibited from objecting – and without question marks or even any doubts."

I know nothing of this person or that organ, so a completely unloaded question: Is there any irony intended in that quote?


Levy takes a critical view of Israeli involvement in the occupied lands, and Haaretz is a left wing, but respected, newspaper.

From what I have read, he is a fairly lone voice these days in Israel, having called for "lifting the criminal siege on the Gaza Strip".

There probably is a bit of irony in what he writes, and here is the full article.

We've never before had a war like this, a war of complete consensus, a war of total silence, a war of blind support; a war without objection, without protest, without refusal to serve, without opposition, neither in the beginning or in the middle. A unanimous war, with wall-to-wall approval – excluding the Arab citizens of the state, who have been prohibited from objecting – and without question marks or even any doubts.

Is a war that has already killed nearly 20,000 people, the vast majority of them innocent civilians, and destroyed nearly all the homes and the lives of the residents of the Gaza Strip, the most just war in the history of Israel? Is a war that causes so much horrific suffering to more than 2 million people the most moral of Israel's wars? And if not, how is it that there is no voice calling to stop the bloodbath? Even the increasing bloodshed among Israelis has not yet called forth the questions "until when?" and "how many more?"

Most of Israel's wars were wars of choice. Almost everyone supported them at first, but soon after, when the terrible price together with the futility became clear, resistance began. By the time these wars ended, many were against them. In hindsight, countless Israelis were against them.

This was the case in both the foolish Lebanon wars and in all the attacks on the Gaza Strip and on the West Bank. Each was shorter than the current war, whose end no one can foresee. And this time, everyone is in favor and no one is asking any questions.

The brainwashing by the media is at fire-hose intensity, spraying forth from the TV news studios day and night, and even those in whom doubt may be starting to stir do not dare to raise them publicly. Together we will win.

Such is the result of a war that broke out in the wake of a barbaric, atrocious attack, but since breaking out it has been unchecked. It has no limits, and no one challenges or opposes it. In the eyes of Israeli Jews, the justness of its beginning justifies everything that comes after. Now, after two terrible months, perhaps doubts are beginning to arise.

There is no one in Israeli Arab society who is not shocked by the images from the Gaza Strip. These people are their brothers, their relatives, and unlike Israeli Jews they are also exposed to the reality in Gaza that is withheld from the Jews by the worthless, propagandist media. But Israeli Arabs cannot protest.

The government threatens this community more than any of its predecessors, brutally gagging its voice and jailing some of its members. Israeli Arabs now live in fear, of the government and of the Jewish rabble, the likes of which they have not experienced since the 1947-48 Nakba.

In Jewish Israeli society too, alongside the overwhelming support for the war together with all its crimes, there are certainly some who are beginning to comprehend the horror that Israel is causing, but here as well people are afraid to speak out, from fear of the current government and of the masses. The result: a war without opposition.

In Putin's Russia there are more displays of resistance to the war in Ukraine than there are in supposedly democratic Israel to the war in Gaza. It's not that the justice of the two wars is similar – the war in Ukraine is infinitely more unethical – but the means and the result of both are becoming increasingly similar. Horrific scenes in both, indescribable suffering by millions of innocent civilians, and all to no end.

Gaza's suffering will accomplish nothing for Israel. Winter is coming, and this suffering will double and triple. Israel has never sown such destruction and killed so many children and adults as it has in this war. When the public conversation focuses exclusively on elaborating on the military accomplishments, real and imagined, alongside endless wallowing in Israeli suffering – and it alone – together with throttling any manifestations of opposition, the result is clear.

As far as Israelis are concerned, it's possible to keep this war going forever, to kill all the inhabitants of the Gaza Strip and destroy it entirely, for good. The most moral, the most just.
[Post edited 17 Dec 2023 11:33]
5
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:22 - Dec 17 with 2448 viewsleitrimblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:51 - Dec 17 by redrickstuhaart

It is no surprise. It has been indiscriminate from the start and Israel has been stringing the US and everyone else along claiming otherwise. Embarrassing that supposedly decent and indepedently minded nations such as ours have been cajoled into accepting those deceptions and are still not making a real fuss.


You have to wonder that if Isreal had declared at the beginning of this that if they would be following the Dahiya Doctrine (involving the deliberate destruction of civilian infrastructure and the use of disproportionate force) if they would have had the same support?
Does feel a bit like Isreal as played the rest of the world
1
Never say never on 11:26 - Dec 17 with 2415 viewsredrickstuhaart

Never say never on 11:20 - Dec 17 by DJR

Levy takes a critical view of Israeli involvement in the occupied lands, and Haaretz is a left wing, but respected, newspaper.

From what I have read, he is a fairly lone voice these days in Israel, having called for "lifting the criminal siege on the Gaza Strip".

There probably is a bit of irony in what he writes, and here is the full article.

We've never before had a war like this, a war of complete consensus, a war of total silence, a war of blind support; a war without objection, without protest, without refusal to serve, without opposition, neither in the beginning or in the middle. A unanimous war, with wall-to-wall approval – excluding the Arab citizens of the state, who have been prohibited from objecting – and without question marks or even any doubts.

Is a war that has already killed nearly 20,000 people, the vast majority of them innocent civilians, and destroyed nearly all the homes and the lives of the residents of the Gaza Strip, the most just war in the history of Israel? Is a war that causes so much horrific suffering to more than 2 million people the most moral of Israel's wars? And if not, how is it that there is no voice calling to stop the bloodbath? Even the increasing bloodshed among Israelis has not yet called forth the questions "until when?" and "how many more?"

Most of Israel's wars were wars of choice. Almost everyone supported them at first, but soon after, when the terrible price together with the futility became clear, resistance began. By the time these wars ended, many were against them. In hindsight, countless Israelis were against them.

This was the case in both the foolish Lebanon wars and in all the attacks on the Gaza Strip and on the West Bank. Each was shorter than the current war, whose end no one can foresee. And this time, everyone is in favor and no one is asking any questions.

The brainwashing by the media is at fire-hose intensity, spraying forth from the TV news studios day and night, and even those in whom doubt may be starting to stir do not dare to raise them publicly. Together we will win.

Such is the result of a war that broke out in the wake of a barbaric, atrocious attack, but since breaking out it has been unchecked. It has no limits, and no one challenges or opposes it. In the eyes of Israeli Jews, the justness of its beginning justifies everything that comes after. Now, after two terrible months, perhaps doubts are beginning to arise.

There is no one in Israeli Arab society who is not shocked by the images from the Gaza Strip. These people are their brothers, their relatives, and unlike Israeli Jews they are also exposed to the reality in Gaza that is withheld from the Jews by the worthless, propagandist media. But Israeli Arabs cannot protest.

The government threatens this community more than any of its predecessors, brutally gagging its voice and jailing some of its members. Israeli Arabs now live in fear, of the government and of the Jewish rabble, the likes of which they have not experienced since the 1947-48 Nakba.

In Jewish Israeli society too, alongside the overwhelming support for the war together with all its crimes, there are certainly some who are beginning to comprehend the horror that Israel is causing, but here as well people are afraid to speak out, from fear of the current government and of the masses. The result: a war without opposition.

In Putin's Russia there are more displays of resistance to the war in Ukraine than there are in supposedly democratic Israel to the war in Gaza. It's not that the justice of the two wars is similar – the war in Ukraine is infinitely more unethical – but the means and the result of both are becoming increasingly similar. Horrific scenes in both, indescribable suffering by millions of innocent civilians, and all to no end.

Gaza's suffering will accomplish nothing for Israel. Winter is coming, and this suffering will double and triple. Israel has never sown such destruction and killed so many children and adults as it has in this war. When the public conversation focuses exclusively on elaborating on the military accomplishments, real and imagined, alongside endless wallowing in Israeli suffering – and it alone – together with throttling any manifestations of opposition, the result is clear.

As far as Israelis are concerned, it's possible to keep this war going forever, to kill all the inhabitants of the Gaza Strip and destroy it entirely, for good. The most moral, the most just.
[Post edited 17 Dec 2023 11:33]


It is genocide.

And will, if pursued to its obvious extremes, result in them achieving the one state solution they have always sought.
2
Never say never on 11:30 - Dec 17 with 2397 viewsWeWereZombies

Never say never on 11:16 - Dec 17 by NthQldITFC

So it's all deep, dark irony then. I should have known from the prohibited Arab citizens bit really, but it's hard to tell real right wing propaganda from satire these days!


No, Haaretz are on the left of the Israeli media. They are not being ironic, they are making a statement of fact about a FUBAR system. As my Tunisian friend pointed out to me back in February, my apparent pro-Palestinian stance whilst having a bit of Jewish family background (but not on the bloodline so still a gentile in the view of the theologians) was going to look naíve if I went to Israel (I haven't made it yet and in the last ten weeks it has slipped way down the list of places to go), the complexity of the situation has been an immense challenge during the IDF assault and I hope I have risen to it but I think if I meet up with my Arab friend again it is the last thing we will want to discuss (but we probably will and then I will find out how well I have done.)

Poll: How will we get fourteen points from the last five games ?

1
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:32 - Dec 17 with 2392 viewsBanksterDebtSlave

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:15 - Dec 17 by leitrimblue

Though it's obviously absolutely awful for the 3 innocent men involved and heartbreaking for their families, this story really does give an indication of the indiscriminate nature of the killing going on inside Gaza.
If you are barechested isreali hostages, carrying a white flag and the IDF shout terrorist and gun you down what chance do innocent women and children have inside Gaza?


Not much...
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/16/mp-layla-morans-family-trapped-ins

With Israeli forces nearby, Moran said on X that her family has reported white phosphorus and gunfire in the compound, and on Saturday, the Latin Patriarchate of Jerusalem said two women were shot and killed while walking to a building in the complex known as the Sister’s Convent. Seven others were shot and wounded trying to protect others in the compound, the patriarchate said in a statement.

“No warning was given, no notification was provided,” the patriarchate said. “They were shot in cold blood inside the premises of the parish, where there are no belligerents.”

"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
Poll: If the choice is Moore or no more.

2
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:36 - Dec 17 with 2357 viewsleitrimblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:32 - Dec 17 by BanksterDebtSlave

Not much...
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/dec/16/mp-layla-morans-family-trapped-ins

With Israeli forces nearby, Moran said on X that her family has reported white phosphorus and gunfire in the compound, and on Saturday, the Latin Patriarchate of Jerusalem said two women were shot and killed while walking to a building in the complex known as the Sister’s Convent. Seven others were shot and wounded trying to protect others in the compound, the patriarchate said in a statement.

“No warning was given, no notification was provided,” the patriarchate said. “They were shot in cold blood inside the premises of the parish, where there are no belligerents.”


Had the misfortune of reading that earlier, utterly depressing.
Good to see yer back
1
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:49 - Dec 17 with 2263 viewsDJR

I do wonder whether the fact that Gaza and the West Bank are not linked physically is a factor which makes a Palestine state difficult to achieve (leaving aside any political issues) because I am not aware of any other state which is so divided.

This seems to have been baked in from the start, given the map on the attached link showing the 1947 UN partition plan for Palestine.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-54116567?trk=public_post_comment-te

I am not aware of this point ever being mentioned anywhere but it would seem to be a particular factor now given security is at the top of the Israeli agenda, and that a Palestinian state split in two would appear to be more difficult to defend than a single entity.

Putting it another way, perhaps a two state solution was doomed from the start: where for example would the legislature be based and how would legislators in the other area get there? The separation would also seem to explain the fact that different bodies (Hamas and the PA) operate in the two areas

It would be interesting to know if any analysis on this point exists.
[Post edited 17 Dec 2023 14:03]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:20 - Dec 17 with 2221 viewsClapham_Junction

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:49 - Dec 17 by DJR

I do wonder whether the fact that Gaza and the West Bank are not linked physically is a factor which makes a Palestine state difficult to achieve (leaving aside any political issues) because I am not aware of any other state which is so divided.

This seems to have been baked in from the start, given the map on the attached link showing the 1947 UN partition plan for Palestine.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-54116567?trk=public_post_comment-te

I am not aware of this point ever being mentioned anywhere but it would seem to be a particular factor now given security is at the top of the Israeli agenda, and that a Palestinian state split in two would appear to be more difficult to defend than a single entity.

Putting it another way, perhaps a two state solution was doomed from the start: where for example would the legislature be based and how would legislators in the other area get there? The separation would also seem to explain the fact that different bodies (Hamas and the PA) operate in the two areas

It would be interesting to know if any analysis on this point exists.
[Post edited 17 Dec 2023 14:03]


I'm not sure it would really matter and the general consensus is that a Palestinian state would be demilitarised (I think even the Palestinians have accepted this).

There are many countries with exclaves, some of which are the other side of hostile neighbours. In terms of the relative sizes, perhaps the most similar is Azerbaijan, which has an exclave on the other side of Armenia (Nakhchivan).

Malaysia is arguably similar, with its two parts separated by a considerable distance by the sea.
1
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:46 - Dec 17 with 2179 viewsGlasgowBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:49 - Dec 17 by DJR

I do wonder whether the fact that Gaza and the West Bank are not linked physically is a factor which makes a Palestine state difficult to achieve (leaving aside any political issues) because I am not aware of any other state which is so divided.

This seems to have been baked in from the start, given the map on the attached link showing the 1947 UN partition plan for Palestine.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-54116567?trk=public_post_comment-te

I am not aware of this point ever being mentioned anywhere but it would seem to be a particular factor now given security is at the top of the Israeli agenda, and that a Palestinian state split in two would appear to be more difficult to defend than a single entity.

Putting it another way, perhaps a two state solution was doomed from the start: where for example would the legislature be based and how would legislators in the other area get there? The separation would also seem to explain the fact that different bodies (Hamas and the PA) operate in the two areas

It would be interesting to know if any analysis on this point exists.
[Post edited 17 Dec 2023 14:03]


The Dominion of Pakistan once had an east and west wing, and was governed as a singular entity, despite being separate geographic exclaves, before East Pakistan broke away to become Bangladesh.

Iron Lion Zion
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0
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 16:18 - Dec 17 with 2133 viewsDJR

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:20 - Dec 17 by Clapham_Junction

I'm not sure it would really matter and the general consensus is that a Palestinian state would be demilitarised (I think even the Palestinians have accepted this).

There are many countries with exclaves, some of which are the other side of hostile neighbours. In terms of the relative sizes, perhaps the most similar is Azerbaijan, which has an exclave on the other side of Armenia (Nakhchivan).

Malaysia is arguably similar, with its two parts separated by a considerable distance by the sea.


A demilitarised state is arguably not a state, given that (according to Wikipedia) the most commonly used definition is by Max Weber who describes the state as a compulsory political organization with a centralized government that maintains a monopoly of the legitimate use of force within a certain territory. Other definitions of the expression also include war making and defence as essential characteristics.

And when it comes to Azerbaijan and Nakchivan, I am not sure that is a great precedent given the recent ethnic cleansing of Armenians from Nagorno-Karabach, and demands by Turkey and Azerbaijan for a transport corridor connecting Azerbaijan with Nakhchivan.

Nor would I consider an intervening sea in the case of Malaysia (or an intervening country in the case of Alaska) an obstacle because they exist in situations where there is no real conflict, something which has not been the case from the outset in what was once Mandatory Palestine.
[Post edited 17 Dec 2023 16:24]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 16:19 - Dec 17 with 2126 viewsDJR

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:46 - Dec 17 by GlasgowBlue

The Dominion of Pakistan once had an east and west wing, and was governed as a singular entity, despite being separate geographic exclaves, before East Pakistan broke away to become Bangladesh.


That's a fair point, but it certainly could be argued that it proves my point that a split state of that sort of nature doesn't really work. And I assume Israel wouldn't want to end up with a three state solution.
[Post edited 17 Dec 2023 16:30]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 16:55 - Dec 17 with 2085 viewsGlasgowBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 16:19 - Dec 17 by DJR

That's a fair point, but it certainly could be argued that it proves my point that a split state of that sort of nature doesn't really work. And I assume Israel wouldn't want to end up with a three state solution.
[Post edited 17 Dec 2023 16:30]


If Jordan had been successful in its attempt to annex the West Bank in 1950 then it would have been a three state solution. Although Egypt did occupy Gaza at the same time, so had Israel not defeated their Arab neighbours there would have been no Palestinian state to talk about today.

It's worth remembering that there never has been a Palestinian state and the borders of mandated Palestine were drawn up by both Britain and France.

Iron Lion Zion
Poll: Our best central defensive partnership?
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0
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:07 - Dec 17 with 2059 viewsDJR

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 16:55 - Dec 17 by GlasgowBlue

If Jordan had been successful in its attempt to annex the West Bank in 1950 then it would have been a three state solution. Although Egypt did occupy Gaza at the same time, so had Israel not defeated their Arab neighbours there would have been no Palestinian state to talk about today.

It's worth remembering that there never has been a Palestinian state and the borders of mandated Palestine were drawn up by both Britain and France.


Turning to the present, this is an interesting development.

Israeli opposition leader and former prime minister, Yair Lapid, has called for Israel’s prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, to step down.

“We have a prime minister who lost the trust of the people, lost the trust of the world and lost the trust of the security establishment,” he wrote in a post on X.

“Netanyahu cannot continue to be prime minister in the current situation.”

Speculation over whether Netanyahu can maintain his wartime coalition has been rife. Parties could walk away, potentially collapsing the government.

Netanyahu has been fiercely criticised for not taking responsibility for failing to prevent the 7 October attack.

EDIT: Maybe not so significant because he called for Netanyahu to stand down on 16 November too.
[Post edited 17 Dec 2023 17:17]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:09 - Dec 17 with 2044 viewspointofblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:07 - Dec 17 by DJR

Turning to the present, this is an interesting development.

Israeli opposition leader and former prime minister, Yair Lapid, has called for Israel’s prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, to step down.

“We have a prime minister who lost the trust of the people, lost the trust of the world and lost the trust of the security establishment,” he wrote in a post on X.

“Netanyahu cannot continue to be prime minister in the current situation.”

Speculation over whether Netanyahu can maintain his wartime coalition has been rife. Parties could walk away, potentially collapsing the government.

Netanyahu has been fiercely criticised for not taking responsibility for failing to prevent the 7 October attack.

EDIT: Maybe not so significant because he called for Netanyahu to stand down on 16 November too.
[Post edited 17 Dec 2023 17:17]


Didn't Lapid call for Netanyahu to stand down after October 7th?

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:21 - Dec 17 with 2001 viewsDJR

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:09 - Dec 17 by pointofblue

Didn't Lapid call for Netanyahu to stand down after October 7th?


You are correct. I've just edited my post to reflect another occasion.

And this must explain why Haaretz hasn't reported today's statement.
[Post edited 17 Dec 2023 17:23]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:23 - Dec 17 with 1991 viewsNthsuffolkblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:21 - Dec 17 by DJR

You are correct. I've just edited my post to reflect another occasion.

And this must explain why Haaretz hasn't reported today's statement.
[Post edited 17 Dec 2023 17:23]


I think it would be unusual for the opposition leader not to call for the leader of the country to step down after they have been shown to have publicly failed. I doubt it will lead to any action at this moment and, even if Netanyahu did step down, I am not sure a lot would change in terms of what Israel is doing.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:24 - Dec 17 with 1988 viewsDJR

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:23 - Dec 17 by Nthsuffolkblue

I think it would be unusual for the opposition leader not to call for the leader of the country to step down after they have been shown to have publicly failed. I doubt it will lead to any action at this moment and, even if Netanyahu did step down, I am not sure a lot would change in terms of what Israel is doing.


That would be my view too.
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